Quote from JuiceBOX »I don’t even really understand why TWD cards are a problem. Why do people care about them being legal? Is it because they cannot get their own? They don’t really look broken. Is it because you don’t want TWD character IPs in your game of Magic? What?
Quote from ashrog »
My playgroup doesn't use a banned list at all. But we're all friends, so we make an effort to be courteous. We try to match power levels. If someone asks "No counters" or "No infinite combos" for a game or two, we will just go along with it.
Quote from JuiceBOX »Every point you made is kind of self resolving.
If you have a fear of missing out on these products, then try to buy them. If you miss out on them, so what? You suddenly cannot play commander and have fun anymore?
Limited print runs also drastically reduces the odds that these cards even make it into your commander experience. So I am not sure the IP bleeding is really a valid argument.
I think the crossover stuff is incredibly cringe. Godzilla cards were pretty gross. D&D crossover sounds even more disgusting. These TWD cards are pretty deplorable.
But to call for the cancelation of the RC over this stuff, seems kind of petty. We have commander players here that loved the Godzilla cards but have never played them. They just stuck them in their show off binder and called it a day. New mechanics also rarely have enough support to spawn a consistent enough deck where crossover cards are going to thematically make a game feel off.
I think people are completely overreacting here.
Quote from JuiceBOX »I think people are completely overreacting here.
Quote from DirkGently »I think you've completely missed the point. This is not a question about me personally, and it's not really about these products specifically either. It's about the direction this game is headed as a whole, and how WotC is treating its customers.
WotC's predatory model here isn't bad because I personally might miss out, or worry about missing out. It's bad because it's simply morally wrong. There are many people out there - and while do I have these tendencies, personally I can keep them in check in this instance - who are going to see a product that's only available for a short time and decide they have to buy it, not because they actually want it, but because they're worried they might want it later. And in particular the structure of MtG makes they predatory practice really powerful, because unlike a limited edition figurine or whatever, not just the value but also the function of these cards could change with the release of future cards. Maybe Rick doesn't look legacy viable now, but maybe WotC makes some really pushed human tribal cards in the future and suddenly he's an in-demand 3-of for a top-tier legacy deck. There's also such a short window between the announcement and the "gotta buy it right now" window that there's not much time to test these cards with proxies, for players who might want to do some research for buying, or who just might want more time to think it over. Most cards are easily available for years before supplies start to dry up, which gives plenty of time for those cards to be tested and proven in various formats - whether that's a competitive format or casual commander. With these, you've gotta buy 'em RIGHT NOW BUY THEM RIGHT NOW OR YOU'LL NEVER HAVE THEM. And who knows what the next set will look like, or the next, or the next? It took WotC TWO unique BaB promos to screw up and make one standard-competitive. We're just going to hope that doesn't happen again, except potentially much worse, this time? They're playing with fire here, fire they've proven they cannot control, and they're doing it out of greed, pure and simple. It's wrong and they know it's wrong.
I don't necessarily mind IP bleed as much as most - I love seeing pop culture alters for the most part (I've got an genie transforming abu alter of [[pongify]] for example), I'm happy to play against silver-bordered cards, and I love P3k - in fact I wish they did more similar things, because I really don't give a crap about the MtG story or characters and everything I read from it makes me cringe. But The Walking Dead is, imo, a very very poor choice of crossover IP for a couple reasons:
1) It takes place in a near-real-world, and the cards depict real human actors. This is way more jarring to me than any Kaiju.
2) More importantly, TWD is a currently running commercial product, and WotC partnering with them is essentially selling us advertisements for that show. That is a huge difference between, say, P3K which afaik isn't shilling for any Chinese history books. Luckily I'm not super interested in the design of any of these cards, but if I were, I'd be very bothered by being forced to run one themed around another commercial property like TWD. Sure, Godzilla technically is too, but I sure haven't seen any movies advertised for Spacegodzilla or Mechagodzilla or whatever. They're old enough to feel like general cultural consciousness, and not something trying to sell itself right now. And more importantly they're available in normal "magic" versions so I'm not forced to play with them, and I don't (except death corona because that's too gold to pass up).
3) Less importantly, The Walking Dead is just the worst show. It blows my mind that people still watch that dreck and think it's actually good. Season 1 was mediocre and then season 2 was already unforgivably bad in so many ways - boring, contrived, nonsensical, boring, poorly-written, under-budgeted, boring, and with few, if any, redeeming characters. If this was a crossover with a property I had even a modicum of respect for, I'd be a lot more conflicted, but there are few shows I have less respect for than TWD. Thirteen Reasons Why, there we go, I found one. If they partner with 13RW I will throw my magic collection off a bridge.
By making these cards TWD, they're saying that if I want to play these cards, I have to support the walking dead and play with cards that have their names and images on them. That is a massive barf from me. As mentioned, none of these hugely appeal (I guess I might want to try Negan out? But it's certainly not a pressing need) but who knows what the future might hold with future lairs that might have more interesting mechanics with flavor I dislike? I also don't relish the idea of getting my ass kicked by Ronald McDonald because they pushed their mcdonalds crossover to hell and back. Silver border lets me say "no", black border does not.
All that said, I'm certainly not calling for deposing the RC. I wish they had banned them, and I think they should have, but I do understand their reasoning - a banlist really isn't the "proper" way to prevent these things from happening. I happen to think it's still an effective way, and that when faced with the potential ruination of the format, efficacy is more important that decorum, but I don't think they should get removed for their opinion, definitely not.
Quote from Cranky »Like, have y'all never experienced any sort of strife before? Just because a company produces a product that you don't like doesn't mean the world is ending. SMDH, I'm out here working my butt off every day, protesting injustice in the streets when I have time, there's a constant stream of news about more murder and disease, and every day now I'm coming home to read hyperbolic melodrama about Magic being dead.
Quote from JuiceBOX »I asked WHY, and your response seems to either have nothing to do with the situation as it pertains to Commander, or they are naive points. I think it is as cringe as the next guy, but this discussion of canceling the RC and Commander is pretty rediculous.
Yet this isn't new. People have been dealing with card availability in MTG since... forever. People will meet this situation as they always have in the format... just proxy them. Exclusivity is nothing new to the game, the only difference is that now it isn't driven by the secondary market. Plenty of companies market on this axis without being called predatory, so why is MTG unable to do the same without receiving backlash?
The product is limited to the point where I think these complaints are just kind of ridiculous to draw the conclusion that they are ruining the game. You are talking about the exclusiveness of the product while simultaneously advocating that it is going to heavily permeate MTG to the point where it is shoved in everyone's face. Talk about speaking in hyperbole.
You know what else lets you say "no"? Curating a playgroup like people did when EDH first got off the ground. I am unsure why so many people seem to think that you have to play the format in an open table setting as opposed to a kitchen table style setting in which the format was birthed. It is rather comical whilst being very confusing.
I still have not seen a single justifiable reason for banning them. Being cringe isn't really a valid reason. Ruining the format is a pretty bold claim.
Quote from JuiceBOX »I still have not seen a single justifiable reason for banning them. Being cringe isn't really a valid reason. Ruining the format is a pretty bold claim.
Quote from Cranky »For an apples to apples comparison, there are people on YouTube having complete mental breakdowns about Steve making it into Smash, proclaiming that the game is dead and that if you're happy about it you're a bad person. Un-*******-real. Meanwhile the community reaction in general has been so wholesome and delightful. How are we more toxic than the Smash community? The one where the pedophiles hang out?
Quote from Card Slinger J »It's got less to do with the cards being broken when it's more about the precedent it sets for future IP Crossovers where Wizards of the Coast has realized that MTG's lore isn't enough to help sell the game to reach a broader audience which is ironic considering that the game never really had to rely on it's own source material or lack there of in order to get to where it became today. It was just something that most players and collectors took for granted when they were more drawn by it's unique gameplay mechanics, tangibility as a collectible item, card combination synergy / possibilities, and it's ability to provide the kind of social interaction that often nowadays gets neglected due to recent advancements in technology.
MTG isn't losing players and collectors because of the game's own lore, they're losing players and collectors because of Wizards of the Coast's own incompetence by only looking out for their shareholders at Hasbro instead of the best interests of the MTG community overall which they've been neglecting ever since they hired Chris Cocks as their CEO to help MTG compete in the digital market more. So until there's a major shakeup within the company and Wizards of the Coast stops lying to Hasbro by pretending their product has sold more than what it actually did by sitting at a warehouse not getting shipped by local distributors to Local Game Stores then nothing is going to change.
Quote from JuiceBOX »I am going to reiterate my misunderstanding here.
I don't understand what the problem with these cards are (as it pertains to Commander and the RC). They do not seem particularly broken. Why are people upset that these are legal in Commander?
I get why people do not like them as it pertains to IP bleed and realistic/relatable art. But that has nothing to do with Commander.
You don't see people abandoning Legacy or Modern because of them, or even really threatening to...
The conclusion I am going to come to here is that people crying out for bans really have no legitimate reasoning for doing so and their arguments for why they are advocating abandoning the format and RC, are pretty ridiculous.
These are the kind of players who I personally feel should just leave the format. It appears they don't seem to enjoy it enough to come up with stronger reasoning for why these cards are a problem (as it pertains to commander), and ultimately appear to be in denial about how they truly feel about the format.
That might seem harsh, but perhaps the 2 biggest problems I have with commander are:
1. Players feeling entitled to play open games with randoms and cry about playing decks they don't like.
2. Players virtue-signaling this 'love' for the format but do nothing other than complain.
People have seem to have forgotten the days where not everyone played Commander outside of you and your close friends. You didn't like something, you talked to them and everyone often kept each other on the same page. It is almost like players these days don't understand how to properly curate a group who shares similar values.