1) Obviously that's never going to happen, idk why you'd bother posting this.
2) Double sleeving is a waste of time and money and makes the experience of playing the game worse YEAH I SAID IT. I'll single-sleeve my timetwister until the day I die.
3) Fetching can be annoying but (1) nobody is making you play fetchlands and (2) you can just say "I'm getting X, then playing this card" and pass turn while you search/shuffle and (3) it's not like searching through 85 cards is that much better than 100. Unless you're complaining about the shuffling, in which case stop double sleeving your cards, duh. All my cards look great and I've been single-sleeving them since 2009.
There's no reason why it cant happen, the game changes constantly, just like everything else.
I played a long time without double sleeving and cards will deteriorate even in the best sleeves. Double sleeving prevents that. Sure it makes them bulkier but you're just losing value. Maybe you haven't noticed but your cards will show spots if examined closely.
I play very few tutors/fetches just because of that, but not everyone does and its excruciatingly painful having to wait for someone to go through all those motions. Yeah I know shortcuts, was a judge for many years, the point stands (not everyone knows how to shortcut just like not everyone knows the rules).
I mean, if tons of people were calling for deck sizes to be reduced I guess it's conceivable...but you're among the only people I've heard who want it changed, and it would force every player to change every commander deck they have, make sleeve manufacturers change their sleeve counts, everyone would need to get new deck boxes or deal with their cards moving around a lot more, and ofc many people just prefer 100 cards, it's a nice round easy-to-remember number while 85 is...yuck. If the RC wanted to kill the format stone dead ASAP, it would probably be a pretty good way to do it.
I've been playing the same sol ring and command tower in almost every commander deck (or multicolor deck, for the tower) I've played since 2013 (2011 for the tower). Without removing them from the sleeve and holding them up to the light, they look mint fresh. Even in the light, if I don't hold them at exactly the right angle, they look mint fresh. When you get them at that exact right angle, there's a few tiny scratches. And these are cards I've played over and over and over, in decks packed with fetches and tutors. Week in, week out, for years and years.
Cards are meant to be played. I'm sure my collection has lost a little value from me not double sleeving (luckily my most valuable cards - tabernacle, timetwister, workshop, etc all are too niche to be regularly played. My duals see plenty of use, but they were never in mint condition so a few tiny scratches makes little difference).
But you know what I've gotten in return for that tiny degradation of value (besides saving hundreds of dollars on perfect fits)? A decade of playing a game I love without hating shuffling. I call that an easy win.
Plus it means I don’t make silly threads hoping for an unlikely fix to a problem I created myself - just saying.
Fixed as in finally having official sanctioned in-person events for the format? My LGS tried doing that once with two 4 player pods where one player managed to win on turn 5/6 so we had to wait a couple hours for the other 4 player pod to finish before we could proceed to the next round. Each player was given a sheet of paper listing all the game achievements they've unlocked and for the player with the most unlocked received some kind of prize support from the store. I couldn't remember what it was but we only held the event once and that was it. This was before the pandemic btw. Even though it wasn't a competitive event it was a good way to get more Paper Magic players into EDH / Commander. The entry fee for the event was only $5 as well.
Maybe If Wizards of the Coast were able to add more swag for prize support like sleeves, playmats, or even promo cards that would've been nice. They're probably looking at what happened with FNM a few years ago and were like, "Yeah...we're not allowing LGS Owners / Employees to fake FNM events just to sell promo cards on the Secondary Market that we give them." You sure about that cause they're selling Secret Lair drops because you thought direct-to-consumer was a good idea but really wasn't when you thought it was a good idea to make it hard for players to play Paper Magic at Local Game Stores. Wizards of the Coast, If you really put the LGS first we would've gotten those Secret Lair Fetches by now but you decided to make them less accessible.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Fixed as in finally having official sanctioned in-person events for the format? My LGS tried doing that once with two 4 player pods where one player managed to win on turn 5/6 so we had to wait a couple hours for the other 4 player pod to finish before we could proceed to the next round. Each player was given a sheet of paper listing all the game achievements they've unlocked and for the player with the most unlocked received some kind of prize support from the store. I couldn't remember what it was but we only held the event once and that was it. This was before the pandemic btw. Even though it wasn't a competitive event it was a good way to get more Paper Magic players into EDH / Commander. The entry fee for the event was only $5 as well.
Maybe If Wizards of the Coast were able to add more swag for prize support like sleeves, playmats, or even promo cards that would've been nice. They're probably looking at what happened with FNM a few years ago and were like, "Yeah...we're not allowing LGS Owners / Employees to fake FNM events just to sell promo cards on the Secondary Market that we give them." You sure about that cause they're selling Secret Lair drops because you thought direct-to-consumer was a good idea but really wasn't when you thought it was a good idea to make it hard for players to play Paper Magic at Local Game Stores. Wizards of the Coast, If you really put the LGS first we would've gotten those Secret Lair Fetches by now but you decided to make them less accessible.
Though the OP made clear he was talking about changing the number of cards in the deck from 100 to 85, I can see why you'd ask for sanctioned EDH. My issue from experience at my own LGS is that as soon as there's prize support, the disparity in decks gets emphasized. My LGS for a long time would have a $5 entry fee event on Sundays, and everyone that showed up could play pods all day long with random groupings, and if you won a pod, you got a prize, and you couldn't get more than 3 prizes in a day. But once you incentivize winning, it brings out the ultra competitive decks and/or players. I vastly prefer a more casual game, but if there's an ultra competitive Zur the Enchanter deck at the table pubstomping a group of casual decks, it gets pretty disheartening.
As to the OP's topic - no, I don't think EDH would be better if it went down to 85 cards. I think Dirk discussed a lot of the relevant considerations.
Uhm, I doubt you can say its easy to shuffle. Heck, I bet most of you here separate your decks in two and shuffle them like that.
Thats a problem, don't deny its there.
How many of you ever thought Wizards would change how Mulligan is done after more than 20 years of Magic?. But they did and now we have London Mulligan.
Things can change, and they should change if it means creating a better overall experience for players.
No, the world would not fall over just because you deck is now 15 cards less. Brands would still sell packs of 100 sleeves (they did WAY before Commander was this popular).
Uhm, I doubt you can say its easy to shuffle. Heck, I bet most of you here separate your decks in two and shuffle them like that.
Thats a problem, don't deny its there.
Nope, I don't cut it in half. I single sleeve and have large hands, so it's not an issue for me. Even if it was, you could always table shuffle.
You want a deck too big to shuffle? Years ago, I had a friend with a 300 card Prismatic deck that he would play against 60 card decks. He bought one of the white cardboard boxes and had to mash shuffle cards into the box because the deck was simply too big to handle (don't worry, the sleeves protected them). And he did it by choice, no complaints.
So, yeah, I do deny that 100 is a problem that could be solved by dropping to 85.
Brands would still sell packs of 100 sleeves (they did WAY before Commander was this popular).
Did they? Aside from penny sleeves (which I doubt a person who double-sleeves would ever consider), I'm fairly certain they only sold packs of 80 or 60 before EDH/Commander became popular. I recall quite clearly people being frustrated that you couldn't sleeve a Commander deck without buying too many or too few.
I don't break my deck into two and shuffle like that and neither does anyone in my playgroup (we have between 4-8 of us that regularly play together).
And I'm not too sure you're right about the 100 pack sleeves back in the day. I know that all I could ever find was 60 or 80 sleeve packs because I always joked with the LGS owner about how he raked in money on the EDH players having to buy two packs. Ultra Pro didn't put their Eclipse sleeves in 100 packs until 2-3 years ago because the Command Zone made a huge deal about it.
Uhm, I doubt you can say its easy to shuffle. Heck, I bet most of you here separate your decks in two and shuffle them like that.
Thats a problem, don't deny its there.
The percentage of players I see splitting their deck is maybe...5%? It's not many. Idk where you'd get "most" from.
I find it quite easy, but I do have big ol' hands.
How many of you ever thought Wizards would change how Mulligan is done after more than 20 years of Magic?. But they did and now we have London Mulligan.
This is one of the funniest things you've said.
The mulligan rule has changed TWICE since I started playing - first to the vancouver mulligan and then to the london mulligan. And there was an earlier change to the mulligan rule as well, though that was a few years before I started playing. Commander also changed their mulligan rule from being different (partial paris) to conforming to other formats (iirc this was when the vancouver mulligan was introduced). The mulligan rule has changed quite a lot, not just once (and the longest gap was 18 years so don't pretend you're right on a technicality).
You know why the mulligan rules have changed while the deck construction rules have been consistent since the early days of magic?
Because changing the mulligan rule doesn't force EVERY PLAYER to drastically modify EVERY DECK - not to mention rendering every precon unplayable out of the box, all deck boxes to be the wrong size, etc etc etc...it would be a massive upheaval that would absolutely lose a ton of players and piss of nearly everyone.
Sorry i'm not cuttin 15 cards from my decks because you can't shuffle. If any, i'd like to play with more.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Uhm, I doubt you can say its easy to shuffle. Heck, I bet most of you here separate your decks in two and shuffle them like that.
Thats a problem, don't deny its there.
Nope, I don't cut it in half. I single sleeve and have large hands, so it's not an issue for me. Even if it was, you could always table shuffle.
You want a deck too big to shuffle? Years ago, I had a friend with a 300 card Prismatic deck that he would play against 60 card decks. He bought one of the white cardboard boxes and had to mash shuffle cards into the box because the deck was simply too big to handle (don't worry, the sleeves protected them). And he did it by choice, no complaints.
So, yeah, I do deny that 100 is a problem that could be solved by dropping to 85.
Brands would still sell packs of 100 sleeves (they did WAY before Commander was this popular).
Did they? Aside from penny sleeves (which I doubt a person who double-sleeves would ever consider), I'm fairly certain they only sold packs of 80 or 60 before EDH/Commander became popular. I recall quite clearly people being frustrated that you couldn't sleeve a Commander deck without buying too many or too few.
Yes they did, I own an LGS, it all depends on how many years back you're thinking but 50 and 100 packs have existed for a long time.
@dirkgently: so I said 20 years and it was actually 18... and that means my argument is invalid?. Silly.
@dirkgently: so I said 20 years and it was actually 18... and that means my argument is invalid?. Silly.
When you choose the least important part of my argument and only reply to that bit while ignoring the much more important parts, do you actually feel like you're making a good counter? Genuinely curious.
Your statement implied that the mulligan rule never changed, and only changed once into the London mulligan. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how someone who's unfamiliar with the history of the mulligan rule would have read what you wrote. That's the actual problem. 18 years vs 20 years is only relevant because you also weren't factually correct either - but the much more important element is what you incorrectly implied, not what it literally meant in the strictest possible reading.
But all of that is just a backdrop to explain why the changes to the mulligan rule can't be compared to changing deck construction rules - especially for a format like commander where people get very attached to their decks. Changing the deck size would be incredibly disruptive to every player. Changing mulligan rules has very little impact and isn't remotely comparable.
I would also argue that changing the deck size by cutting 15 cards would turn some people off of the format due to having to reconfigure all their decks.
It wouldn't run me off but I would be very annoyed redoing all my decks because they decided to change the format so that someone can shuffle easier. The format has been around for a long time and you're the first person I have ever heard make this suggestion.
2) Double sleeving is a waste of time and money and makes the experience of playing the game worse YEAH I SAID IT. I'll single-sleeve my timetwister until the day I die.
While I admire your position and got a good chuckle out of imaging vocal inflections as if I heard it verbally, I think that for some people who see equity in the cards they buy - double sleeving is not a waste of time and indeed cheaper because it helps maintain that equity. Whether you view cards as in investment vehicle or not, some people do find themselves wanting to leave the game at some point or do find themselves in positions where paying for a new roof is more important than retaining their MTG collection.
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I agree with the OP, 100 cards is too many. (I'll recommend 75-85 cards for a deck).
Some of the many problems with 100 cards:
a) It limits the number of viable deck builds. What if you want to try a new deck mechanic which only has a few viable cards needed for that mechanic? (Example: 4 cards for that mechanic). Some deck builds aren't really viable when the deck is very large such as 100 cards.
b) Shuffling 100 cards isn't fun. And that is why most play the game, for fun. Do you really enjoy shuffling 100 cards? While its possible to build a fetching/tutoring deck, is it really fun to shuffle 100 cards every turn?
c) It costs more. I love to spend money, heck who doesn't. But who really likes to find and then spend hundreds (or even thousands) to test a new possible mechanic or to build a top competitive 100 card commander deck?
d) It can force you to add subpar or weak cards. Having 100 cards can sometimes force you to add weak cards for that mechanic simply to fulfill the 100 card requirement. Do you really like to add and then draw weak cards?
The main reason the card number won't change? Because too many players already have 100 card commander decks which would need to be reworked. If Magic wants to leave it at 100 cards that's fine, the rest of us just won't play.
b) Shuffling 100 cards isn't fun. And that is why most play the game, for fun. Do you really enjoy shuffling 100 cards? While its possible to build a fetching/tutoring deck, is it really fun to shuffle 100 cards every turn?
I might be in the minority here, but I *do* prefer shuffling 100 cards (and I double sleeve mine and I have "normal" sized hands). Whenever I shuffle a 60 card deck, it just feels like I have nothing in hand. I have no problems with the shuffling after every search and I have no problems shuffling the deck in general.
c) It costs more. I love to spend money, heck who doesn't. But who really likes to find and then spend hundreds (or even thousands) to test a new possible mechanic or to build a top competitive 100 card commander deck?
d) It can force you to add subpar or weak cards. Having 100 cards can sometimes force you to add weak cards for that mechanic simply to fulfill the 100 card requirement. Do you really like to add and then draw weak cards?
These two things are at odds with one another. It can't cost more *and* force subpar cards. At least, they can't both be used as generalities. In any case, I disagree with point 'd' (I don't really agree with point 'c' either but I have a feeling that is more subjective). There are 20,000+ cards in Magic. If you are running subpar cards either you didn't look hard enough or you think anything worse than Cyclonic Rift or Sol Ring is subpar. They may be "worse" but there are plenty of good cards you can include in decks.
b) Shuffling 100 cards isn't fun. And that is why most play the game, for fun. Do you really enjoy shuffling 100 cards? While its possible to build a fetching/tutoring deck, is it really fun to shuffle 100 cards every turn?
I might be in the minority here, but I *do* prefer shuffling 100 cards (and I double sleeve mine and I have "normal" sized hands). Whenever I shuffle a 60 card deck, it just feels like I have nothing in hand. I have no problems with the shuffling after every search and I have no problems shuffling the deck in general.
c) It costs more. I love to spend money, heck who doesn't. But who really likes to find and then spend hundreds (or even thousands) to test a new possible mechanic or to build a top competitive 100 card commander deck?
d) It can force you to add subpar or weak cards. Having 100 cards can sometimes force you to add weak cards for that mechanic simply to fulfill the 100 card requirement. Do you really like to add and then draw weak cards?
These two things are at odds with one another. It can't cost more *and* force subpar cards. At least, they can't both be used as generalities. In any case, I disagree with point 'd' (I don't really agree with point 'c' either but I have a feeling that is more subjective). There are 20,000+ cards in Magic. If you are running subpar cards either you didn't look hard enough or you think anything worse than Cyclonic Rift or Sol Ring is subpar. They may be "worse" but there are plenty of good cards you can include in decks.
What I mean by this is that if each deck has 80 high quality cards, adding an additional 20 subpar cards to meet 100 cards will increase the cost. You have to buy the 80 quality cards, and then spend additional money buying subpar cards. This is one reason why I support smaller decks: less cost.
For Example:
Deck A = 80 cards: 80 high quality cards ($2 each or $160) = $160 total
Deck B = 100 cards: 80 high quality cards same as above ($160) + 20 subpar cards ($1 each) = $180 total
Perhaps that is a difference in deckbuilding philosophy then? In terms of the subpar cards argument anyway. I looked at 3 of my decks and could not find a single subpar card within them. And anything that could be argued as subpar is likely there as a testing slot. Or perhaps some of the foundation making the deck work. Almost every set I have to go through my decks and cut cards I like just to make room for new ones. For example, within my last three rounds of changes for Karador I cut Erebos, Mikaeus, Protean Hulk, Birthing Pod, Greater Good, Kozilek, and Oracle of Mul Daya. Among other cards of course. These can hardly be considered subpar cards and yet they still made it to the chopping block because they simply weren't what the deck needed anymore.
The impetus for doing so of course was to play with new toys: Luminous Broodmoth, Mythos of Nethroi, Eerie Ultimatum, Fiend Artisan, Elder Gargaroth, Tevesh Szat, and Magus of the Order. Again, among others. While the changes may not stick, it is hard to argue that the deck contains subpar cards simply because the deck size is 100 cards. In fact, I have often seen the opposite argument: the deck restriction should be a minimum like it is in other formats so people can play with 101 or 102 cards as ways to test out new additions.
As I said, still disagree with the cost aspect. In Karador alone, I have 21 cards (not counting lands) under $1. These represent some pretty good cards in the deck but even if I simply said these were the worst, based on cost, they only come out to be $9.41. If I just take out the 15 lowest cost cards, since the other 5 would be lands, the cost is $4.23. So even accepting that the deck has "filler", the cost savings is relatively minimal. Do note, these 15 include things like Sun Titan, Crop Rotation, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Command Tower, Magus of the Order (I will concede this could end up being subpar, but it is being tested), Wall of Blossoms, and Unexpectedly Absent.
So, while our quick and dirty math shows an obvious difference in cost between 100 and 80 cards, I still maintain that if you are running subpar cards, your cost in doing so in negligible. Subpar cards are not $1. *Good* cards can be had for under $1. And even if you are not running subpar cards, the costs are still reasonable.
I do understand your point: fewer cards means less cost. Easy. Simple. And I realize your "$1 for bad; $2 for good" is just illustrative. But the cost isn't where it is because you are filling the deck with subpar cards because you shouldn't be using subpar cards to begin with. The cost is there simply by virtue of needing more cards. Those additional cards can easily be good and, somewhat easily, be done on a budget.
Less cards means more streamlined and more super competitive decks. "Subpar" cards are more than just filler. They represent the surprise factor in edh where your "subpar" cards ended up winning the game or made the game more interesting.
Less cards means more streamlined and more super competitive decks. "Subpar" cards are more than just filler. They represent the surprise factor in edh where your "subpar" cards ended up winning the game or made the game more interesting.
This is a pretty important aspect to discuss. I think a lot of people get so upset that Commander is becoming a less casual format, and I think that is true to some extent. It people want to preserve the casual nature of the format as much as possible, reducing deck size isn't the way to do it.
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I got big hands but its hard even for me, and yes I use double sleeved cards obviously, everyone should.
If Commander went from 100 cards to 85 it would be perfect.
Think about all that fetching and tutoring you gotta do, its awful.
2) Double sleeving is a waste of time and money and makes the experience of playing the game worse YEAH I SAID IT. I'll single-sleeve my timetwister until the day I die.
3) Fetching can be annoying but (1) nobody is making you play fetchlands and (2) you can just say "I'm getting X, then playing this card" and pass turn while you search/shuffle and (3) it's not like searching through 85 cards is that much better than 100. Unless you're complaining about the shuffling, in which case stop double sleeving your cards, duh. All my cards look great and I've been single-sleeving them since 2009.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I played a long time without double sleeving and cards will deteriorate even in the best sleeves. Double sleeving prevents that. Sure it makes them bulkier but you're just losing value. Maybe you haven't noticed but your cards will show spots if examined closely.
I play very few tutors/fetches just because of that, but not everyone does and its excruciatingly painful having to wait for someone to go through all those motions. Yeah I know shortcuts, was a judge for many years, the point stands (not everyone knows how to shortcut just like not everyone knows the rules).
I've been playing the same sol ring and command tower in almost every commander deck (or multicolor deck, for the tower) I've played since 2013 (2011 for the tower). Without removing them from the sleeve and holding them up to the light, they look mint fresh. Even in the light, if I don't hold them at exactly the right angle, they look mint fresh. When you get them at that exact right angle, there's a few tiny scratches. And these are cards I've played over and over and over, in decks packed with fetches and tutors. Week in, week out, for years and years.
Cards are meant to be played. I'm sure my collection has lost a little value from me not double sleeving (luckily my most valuable cards - tabernacle, timetwister, workshop, etc all are too niche to be regularly played. My duals see plenty of use, but they were never in mint condition so a few tiny scratches makes little difference).
But you know what I've gotten in return for that tiny degradation of value (besides saving hundreds of dollars on perfect fits)? A decade of playing a game I love without hating shuffling. I call that an easy win.
Plus it means I don’t make silly threads hoping for an unlikely fix to a problem I created myself - just saying.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Maybe If Wizards of the Coast were able to add more swag for prize support like sleeves, playmats, or even promo cards that would've been nice. They're probably looking at what happened with FNM a few years ago and were like, "Yeah...we're not allowing LGS Owners / Employees to fake FNM events just to sell promo cards on the Secondary Market that we give them." You sure about that cause they're selling Secret Lair drops because you thought direct-to-consumer was a good idea but really wasn't when you thought it was a good idea to make it hard for players to play Paper Magic at Local Game Stores. Wizards of the Coast, If you really put the LGS first we would've gotten those Secret Lair Fetches by now but you decided to make them less accessible.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Though the OP made clear he was talking about changing the number of cards in the deck from 100 to 85, I can see why you'd ask for sanctioned EDH. My issue from experience at my own LGS is that as soon as there's prize support, the disparity in decks gets emphasized. My LGS for a long time would have a $5 entry fee event on Sundays, and everyone that showed up could play pods all day long with random groupings, and if you won a pod, you got a prize, and you couldn't get more than 3 prizes in a day. But once you incentivize winning, it brings out the ultra competitive decks and/or players. I vastly prefer a more casual game, but if there's an ultra competitive Zur the Enchanter deck at the table pubstomping a group of casual decks, it gets pretty disheartening.
As to the OP's topic - no, I don't think EDH would be better if it went down to 85 cards. I think Dirk discussed a lot of the relevant considerations.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsSo change the entire format as it's been since it's inception (100 card singleton) because you have a hard time shuffling?
Gee, that's not asking for much.
Building: Varina
Thats a problem, don't deny its there.
How many of you ever thought Wizards would change how Mulligan is done after more than 20 years of Magic?. But they did and now we have London Mulligan.
Things can change, and they should change if it means creating a better overall experience for players.
No, the world would not fall over just because you deck is now 15 cards less. Brands would still sell packs of 100 sleeves (they did WAY before Commander was this popular).
You want a deck too big to shuffle? Years ago, I had a friend with a 300 card Prismatic deck that he would play against 60 card decks. He bought one of the white cardboard boxes and had to mash shuffle cards into the box because the deck was simply too big to handle (don't worry, the sleeves protected them). And he did it by choice, no complaints.
So, yeah, I do deny that 100 is a problem that could be solved by dropping to 85. Did they? Aside from penny sleeves (which I doubt a person who double-sleeves would ever consider), I'm fairly certain they only sold packs of 80 or 60 before EDH/Commander became popular. I recall quite clearly people being frustrated that you couldn't sleeve a Commander deck without buying too many or too few.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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And I'm not too sure you're right about the 100 pack sleeves back in the day. I know that all I could ever find was 60 or 80 sleeve packs because I always joked with the LGS owner about how he raked in money on the EDH players having to buy two packs. Ultra Pro didn't put their Eclipse sleeves in 100 packs until 2-3 years ago because the Command Zone made a huge deal about it.
Building: Varina
I find it quite easy, but I do have big ol' hands.
This is one of the funniest things you've said.
The mulligan rule has changed TWICE since I started playing - first to the vancouver mulligan and then to the london mulligan. And there was an earlier change to the mulligan rule as well, though that was a few years before I started playing. Commander also changed their mulligan rule from being different (partial paris) to conforming to other formats (iirc this was when the vancouver mulligan was introduced). The mulligan rule has changed quite a lot, not just once (and the longest gap was 18 years so don't pretend you're right on a technicality).
You know why the mulligan rules have changed while the deck construction rules have been consistent since the early days of magic?
Because changing the mulligan rule doesn't force EVERY PLAYER to drastically modify EVERY DECK - not to mention rendering every precon unplayable out of the box, all deck boxes to be the wrong size, etc etc etc...it would be a massive upheaval that would absolutely lose a ton of players and piss of nearly everyone.
But y'know, your hands hurt.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Yes they did, I own an LGS, it all depends on how many years back you're thinking but 50 and 100 packs have existed for a long time.
@dirkgently: so I said 20 years and it was actually 18... and that means my argument is invalid?. Silly.
When you choose the least important part of my argument and only reply to that bit while ignoring the much more important parts, do you actually feel like you're making a good counter? Genuinely curious.
Your statement implied that the mulligan rule never changed, and only changed once into the London mulligan. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how someone who's unfamiliar with the history of the mulligan rule would have read what you wrote. That's the actual problem. 18 years vs 20 years is only relevant because you also weren't factually correct either - but the much more important element is what you incorrectly implied, not what it literally meant in the strictest possible reading.
But all of that is just a backdrop to explain why the changes to the mulligan rule can't be compared to changing deck construction rules - especially for a format like commander where people get very attached to their decks. Changing the deck size would be incredibly disruptive to every player. Changing mulligan rules has very little impact and isn't remotely comparable.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It wouldn't run me off but I would be very annoyed redoing all my decks because they decided to change the format so that someone can shuffle easier. The format has been around for a long time and you're the first person I have ever heard make this suggestion.
Building: Varina
While I admire your position and got a good chuckle out of imaging vocal inflections as if I heard it verbally, I think that for some people who see equity in the cards they buy - double sleeving is not a waste of time and indeed cheaper because it helps maintain that equity. Whether you view cards as in investment vehicle or not, some people do find themselves wanting to leave the game at some point or do find themselves in positions where paying for a new roof is more important than retaining their MTG collection.
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This is honestly the first time ive ever seen anyone label 100 cards as a problem that needs to change.
Honestly, ive seen more arguments for bumping it to 125 to 150 if anything.
I double sleeve and shuffle no problem. It might just be your technique.
Some of the many problems with 100 cards:
a) It limits the number of viable deck builds. What if you want to try a new deck mechanic which only has a few viable cards needed for that mechanic? (Example: 4 cards for that mechanic). Some deck builds aren't really viable when the deck is very large such as 100 cards.
b) Shuffling 100 cards isn't fun. And that is why most play the game, for fun. Do you really enjoy shuffling 100 cards? While its possible to build a fetching/tutoring deck, is it really fun to shuffle 100 cards every turn?
c) It costs more. I love to spend money, heck who doesn't. But who really likes to find and then spend hundreds (or even thousands) to test a new possible mechanic or to build a top competitive 100 card commander deck?
d) It can force you to add subpar or weak cards. Having 100 cards can sometimes force you to add weak cards for that mechanic simply to fulfill the 100 card requirement. Do you really like to add and then draw weak cards?
The main reason the card number won't change? Because too many players already have 100 card commander decks which would need to be reworked. If Magic wants to leave it at 100 cards that's fine, the rest of us just won't play.
These two things are at odds with one another. It can't cost more *and* force subpar cards. At least, they can't both be used as generalities. In any case, I disagree with point 'd' (I don't really agree with point 'c' either but I have a feeling that is more subjective). There are 20,000+ cards in Magic. If you are running subpar cards either you didn't look hard enough or you think anything worse than Cyclonic Rift or Sol Ring is subpar. They may be "worse" but there are plenty of good cards you can include in decks.
What I mean by this is that if each deck has 80 high quality cards, adding an additional 20 subpar cards to meet 100 cards will increase the cost. You have to buy the 80 quality cards, and then spend additional money buying subpar cards. This is one reason why I support smaller decks: less cost.
For Example:
Deck A = 80 cards: 80 high quality cards ($2 each or $160) = $160 total
Deck B = 100 cards: 80 high quality cards same as above ($160) + 20 subpar cards ($1 each) = $180 total
The impetus for doing so of course was to play with new toys: Luminous Broodmoth, Mythos of Nethroi, Eerie Ultimatum, Fiend Artisan, Elder Gargaroth, Tevesh Szat, and Magus of the Order. Again, among others. While the changes may not stick, it is hard to argue that the deck contains subpar cards simply because the deck size is 100 cards. In fact, I have often seen the opposite argument: the deck restriction should be a minimum like it is in other formats so people can play with 101 or 102 cards as ways to test out new additions.
As I said, still disagree with the cost aspect. In Karador alone, I have 21 cards (not counting lands) under $1. These represent some pretty good cards in the deck but even if I simply said these were the worst, based on cost, they only come out to be $9.41. If I just take out the 15 lowest cost cards, since the other 5 would be lands, the cost is $4.23. So even accepting that the deck has "filler", the cost savings is relatively minimal. Do note, these 15 include things like Sun Titan, Crop Rotation, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Command Tower, Magus of the Order (I will concede this could end up being subpar, but it is being tested), Wall of Blossoms, and Unexpectedly Absent.
So, while our quick and dirty math shows an obvious difference in cost between 100 and 80 cards, I still maintain that if you are running subpar cards, your cost in doing so in negligible. Subpar cards are not $1. *Good* cards can be had for under $1. And even if you are not running subpar cards, the costs are still reasonable.
I do understand your point: fewer cards means less cost. Easy. Simple. And I realize your "$1 for bad; $2 for good" is just illustrative. But the cost isn't where it is because you are filling the deck with subpar cards because you shouldn't be using subpar cards to begin with. The cost is there simply by virtue of needing more cards. Those additional cards can easily be good and, somewhat easily, be done on a budget.
This is a pretty important aspect to discuss. I think a lot of people get so upset that Commander is becoming a less casual format, and I think that is true to some extent. It people want to preserve the casual nature of the format as much as possible, reducing deck size isn't the way to do it.
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