We've never banned a card before its street release date, but we feel strongly compelled to do so for Lutri, the Spellchaser. It is a card unlike any other in Magic's history. While we are firm believers in giving cards their opportunity in the format, it's clear that Lutri would be banned almost immediately. It doesn't have an opportunity cost; you don't have to sacrifice a spot in the 100 in order to play it—meaning if you have the card and are playing the right colors, you can simply include it. It becomes a thing we're not fans of, namely a "must play." A big part of this decision is that we don't want players to acquire the card thinking it might remain legal. There was consideration for letting it loose for a quarter with the likely plan to ban it later just in case it was as bad as we thought, because from where we sit, Lutri as a 101st card is intensely problematic. In the end, this is a special case, and we think that the conservative approach is the better option.
I'm surprised they didn't ban all ten due to rule 11.
I was actually thinking the same thing...
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I'm confused, wouldn't companion just not work in Commander? The rules of companion state that the card must start in your sideboard. There are no sideboards in Commander, therefore the mechanic shouldn't work
Edit: Nevermind, I didn't realize there were different rules for Commander. Mod feel free to delete this post
Will they change the Wish rule in light of the new Companion mechanic? Admittedly, having "101" cards is nothing like having 100 + your entire collection, but the concept is the same.
I'm kind of bummed because Lutri is cool and because I don't know if he'll be good enough to build around anywhere else, but at the same time I understand. I kind of wish that they had gone with a different deck building restriction for him, but wha can you do.
I feel that Companion as a whole simply SHOULDN'T work in commander. Including a rules... loophole of sorts, just to make it work creates inconsistency in how the commander rules treat other cards that refer to "outside of the game" (the Wishes), that just feels sloppy.
Well, to be fair, he's a worse dualcaster mage...that can sit in the command zone.
We'll see what the rules update looks like, but I doubt it's that messy. The only reasonable defense I've heard of rule 11 is that it risks people flipping through binders of cards or whatever, and that's obviously not a concern with companions. Rule 11 is a rule for simplicity's sake, not because it's fun or cool, and that simplicity doesn't apply to companions. The only argument I hear against them is "but that's not what the rules currently say and the rules should never ever change!"
Who cares about the specific wording of the rules. Commander is cool because you get to play a commander in big, long, casual multiplayer games with your friends, not because of the nitty gritty of rule 11. Companions will open up some fun, probably terrible, deckbuilding challenges. Seems cool to me. IDGAF what happens to rule 11, I don't play commander for rule 11. I play commander to have fun, and companions looks fun.
I imagine that when we get full rulings on Companion, that the rules committee will legalize Lutri and note somewhere that these cards need to start in your deck. Otherwise we may see big changes to official commander wishboard legality.
I don't know why they didn't just have it take up a slot in the 100 like the partner cards, if their arguments were really just the ones that they presented about it having no costs to including in your deck.
That being said, It's also a pretty broken combo deck with Twinflame, and you can use Kess or a 4 or 5cc general to get around the restrictions to give you not only the blue tutors, but also all the black tutors, and would probably make an incredibly consistent turn 4 kill with multiple counters back up deck.
That being said, It's also a pretty broken combo deck with Twinflame
'fraid not.
There's this little phrase "if you cast it" you may have missed. Sometimes WotC learns from their mistakes.
Anyway I think the possibilities added by playing companions as companions is well worth the cost of not getting Lutri in the 99 or CZ, especially considering it's mostly just a worse dualcaster mage.
The thing I like most about them is how they seem like a natural way to self-limit your power. If you've got a deck that's just a little too good for your meta but you're having a hard time toning it down in a fun way, just put a companion requirement and you'll get a cute reward in exchange for making your deck suck a lot more. So you don't feel like you're depowering it arbitrarily.
I feel that Companion as a whole simply SHOULDN'T work in commander. Including a rules... loophole of sorts, just to make it work creates inconsistency in how the commander rules treat other cards that refer to "outside of the game" (the Wishes), that just feels sloppy.
That is the point. Because WITH companion it's an autoinclude in every single EDH-deck that has the colours red and blue in it.
If a card becomes an auto-include that's a problematic thing.
And when I say every deck, I mean every single one. It doesn't even cost a card slot in the deck, there is absolutely no reason not to play this.
Only Lutri though? Is it because of the "each nonland card must be a different name" requirement? So what they are saying is I can play the rest of the companion cards? Wouldn't the simpler answer just be ban "All companion cards"? As otherwise that just means for a Sultai deck for example I could just play Keruga, the Macrosage which would easily get jammed into any u/g/x deck.
And also in regards to wishes. If they allow the rest that means they allow wishes. As the companions are cast from outside the game. So for example, you could just Living Wish the Keruga, the Macrosage to your hand. Not that it would be game breaking, but that the wish can actually be used now and that there could be a situation where other cards care if the card could be cast from the hand or from elsewhere. Such as that new Drannith Magistrate which would normally prevent Keruga from being cast as a companion, but with a Living Wish you actually skirt around the rule.
As otherwise that just means for a Sultai deck for example I could just play Keruga, the Macrosage which would easily get jammed into any u/g/x deck.
While the requirements of some companions are also easy they are requirements unlike Lurtis which is literally the commmander Deckuilding rule. Sure you can play Keruga, the Macrosage as a companion but then you get no Sol Ring, Cyclonic Rift, Swiftfoot Boots, Lightning Greaves, One and Two mana Ramp and more so there is a tradeof for adding him and the others as companion.
But while I don't have a particular stance for or against SB/Wishboards allowing Companions while disallowing SB/Wishboards just Irks me to no end.
But while I don't have a particular stance for or against SB/Wishboards, allowing Companions while disallowing SB/Wishboards just Irks me to no end.
Underlined for emphasis as we are on the same wavelength. It irks me as well.
Banning just Lutri but keeping the companion rules intact creates unnecessary confusion for players unfamiliar with the rules regarding wishes.
As the initial and primary argument against wishes is that it would mean you would have over 100 cards in your deck effectively if you had a wishboard. Yet for some reason you can do the exact same thing with companions and only Lutri gets banned.
Its outright hypocrisy to not allow wishboards but allow companions as you can have 3 companions in your companion-board, but having 3 cards in your wishboard is breaking the bank. And if Lutri, the Spellchaser wasn't preempetively banned, you could have 4 in the companion-board if you just went odd and actually built a deck that wasn't filled with Relentless Rats.
If it wasn't for the 1-of rule, it would be the most silly mechanic they printed to date. As if your deck is just your commander + 99 lands, you technically would meet the requirements for all companions as each of them care about you having lands + requirement. So you could have commander + 99 lands + 4 companions. Couldn't be 5 as your commander could be even or odd.
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Warriors, torch-bearers, come redeem our dreams
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
I feel that Companion as a whole simply SHOULDN'T work in commander. Including a rules... loophole of sorts, just to make it work creates inconsistency in how the commander rules treat other cards that refer to "outside of the game" (the Wishes), that just feels sloppy.
That is the point. Because WITH companion it's an autoinclude in every single EDH-deck that has the colours red and blue in it.
If a card becomes an auto-include that's a problematic thing.
And when I say every deck, I mean every single one. It doesn't even cost a card slot in the deck, there is absolutely no reason not to play this.
I'm... not... disputing that???
It's obvious why Lutri was banned since Companion is being ruled to work in commander. My argument is that the entire Companion mechanic SHOULDN'T work in commander, just like the wishes don't work (at which point there would have been no need to ban Lutri). It creates unnecessary and messy inconsistencies in how the rules treat cards that refer to sideboards/outside the game by allowing it.
Lutri shouldn't be banned, but companion shouldn't work, thus taking away its auto-include status and just making it "bad dualcaster*".
*Yes it could be in your command zone (as your Commander), but so can Naru Meha, and you can blink her where you can't blink Lutri.
I feel that Companion as a whole simply SHOULDN'T work in commander. Including a rules... loophole of sorts, just to make it work creates inconsistency in how the commander rules treat other cards that refer to "outside of the game" (the Wishes), that just feels sloppy.
That is the point. Because WITH companion it's an autoinclude in every single EDH-deck that has the colours red and blue in it.
If a card becomes an auto-include that's a problematic thing.
And when I say every deck, I mean every single one. It doesn't even cost a card slot in the deck, there is absolutely no reason not to play this.
I'm... not... disputing that???
It's obvious why Lutri was banned since Companion is being ruled to work in commander. My argument is that the entire Companion mechanic SHOULDN'T work in commander, just like the wishes don't work (at which point there would have been no need to ban Lutri). It creates unnecessary and messy inconsistencies in how the rules treat cards that refer to sideboards/outside the game by allowing it.
Lutri shouldn't be banned, but companion shouldn't work, thus taking away its auto-include status and just making it "bad dualcaster*".
*Yes it could be in your command zone (as your Commander), but so can Naru Meha, and you can blink her where you can't blink Lutri.
i complately agree. without doing anything, without changing the rules companion just does not work. i do not understand why there is a need to change the rules to make them work AND immediatelly ban one of them. it makes no sense.
also - deck construction rules apply only to the cards in your deck so this will have to change somehow as well to make color identity restriction apply to companions.
people are also pointing out general problem with verifying deck legality but that problem is not specific to edh.
and on top of that we still do not have actual update to the rules, only people from rc and wotc posts and articles. sigh...
Deck verification is meaningless on two counts. For one, we already trust each other not to cheat on how many of each card we’re allowed (or do deck checks in tournaments). For two, since you reveal the companion at the start, it’s pretty obvious you’re cheating if you play a card that doesn’t fit.
lutri has some risks since you could run duplicates but not cast the second, for example with a card you think should always win the game if it resolves, which would increase the likelihood of drawing it. Doesn’t matter for us, though, obviously.
I don’t think the RC needed to change the rules to allow it, but I’m glad they did. It looks like a lot of fun, worth some slight rules complications imo. My favourite part is that it provides justification for de-powering a deck. I’m sure I’ll play them a lot.
After talking with my two major groups, we have all decided that the companion mechanic is basically forgettable. We are all considering these new companion cards as just another possible legendary to pick as a commander only. We will be ignoring the fact that Lutri is banned because in our group it could serve as a commander.
None of us actually like the idea behind the companion mechanic and we are all just going to ignore it.
Outside of Lutri, the Companion cards all seem fairly lackluster. I really cannot imagine a scenario where that extra card, with its deck restrictions, is going to break Commander. If one extra bulk rare breaks the game, we have bigger problems.
Most of you all seem pretty OCD about some ad hoc rule that can be abridged. In six months none of this will be an issue, and people will or won’t be using Companion cards. Either way the game will keep on keeping on.
Most of you all seem pretty OCD about some ad hoc rule that can be abridged. In six months none of this will be an issue, and people will or won’t be using Companion cards. Either way the game will keep on keeping on.
Then why have rule 11? Why not just remove it and allow wishboards if its such a non-issue?
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mtgcommander.net
I was actually thinking the same thing...
Edit: Nevermind, I didn't realize there were different rules for Commander. Mod feel free to delete this post
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I feel that Companion as a whole simply SHOULDN'T work in commander. Including a rules... loophole of sorts, just to make it work creates inconsistency in how the commander rules treat other cards that refer to "outside of the game" (the Wishes), that just feels sloppy.
Without Companion, Lutri is just a worse Dualcaster Mage.
We'll see what the rules update looks like, but I doubt it's that messy. The only reasonable defense I've heard of rule 11 is that it risks people flipping through binders of cards or whatever, and that's obviously not a concern with companions. Rule 11 is a rule for simplicity's sake, not because it's fun or cool, and that simplicity doesn't apply to companions. The only argument I hear against them is "but that's not what the rules currently say and the rules should never ever change!"
Who cares about the specific wording of the rules. Commander is cool because you get to play a commander in big, long, casual multiplayer games with your friends, not because of the nitty gritty of rule 11. Companions will open up some fun, probably terrible, deckbuilding challenges. Seems cool to me. IDGAF what happens to rule 11, I don't play commander for rule 11. I play commander to have fun, and companions looks fun.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I certainly hope they don't disable companions, I think it'll be fun to try building with them, even if they're probably all terrible.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
That being said, It's also a pretty broken combo deck with Twinflame, and you can use Kess or a 4 or 5cc general to get around the restrictions to give you not only the blue tutors, but also all the black tutors, and would probably make an incredibly consistent turn 4 kill with multiple counters back up deck.
'fraid not.
There's this little phrase "if you cast it" you may have missed. Sometimes WotC learns from their mistakes.
Anyway I think the possibilities added by playing companions as companions is well worth the cost of not getting Lutri in the 99 or CZ, especially considering it's mostly just a worse dualcaster mage.
The thing I like most about them is how they seem like a natural way to self-limit your power. If you've got a deck that's just a little too good for your meta but you're having a hard time toning it down in a fun way, just put a companion requirement and you'll get a cute reward in exchange for making your deck suck a lot more. So you don't feel like you're depowering it arbitrarily.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
That is the point. Because WITH companion it's an autoinclude in every single EDH-deck that has the colours red and blue in it.
If a card becomes an auto-include that's a problematic thing.
And when I say every deck, I mean every single one. It doesn't even cost a card slot in the deck, there is absolutely no reason not to play this.
And also in regards to wishes. If they allow the rest that means they allow wishes. As the companions are cast from outside the game. So for example, you could just Living Wish the Keruga, the Macrosage to your hand. Not that it would be game breaking, but that the wish can actually be used now and that there could be a situation where other cards care if the card could be cast from the hand or from elsewhere. Such as that new Drannith Magistrate which would normally prevent Keruga from being cast as a companion, but with a Living Wish you actually skirt around the rule.
???
Yes as unless your playing Relentless Rats like cards and playing U/R having Lutri is always better than not since its a free inclusion.
While the requirements of some companions are also easy they are requirements unlike Lurtis which is literally the commmander Deckuilding rule. Sure you can play Keruga, the Macrosage as a companion but then you get no Sol Ring, Cyclonic Rift, Swiftfoot Boots, Lightning Greaves, One and Two mana Ramp and more so there is a tradeof for adding him and the others as companion.
But while I don't have a particular stance for or against SB/Wishboards allowing Companions while disallowing SB/Wishboards just Irks me to no end.
Banning just Lutri but keeping the companion rules intact creates unnecessary confusion for players unfamiliar with the rules regarding wishes.
As the initial and primary argument against wishes is that it would mean you would have over 100 cards in your deck effectively if you had a wishboard. Yet for some reason you can do the exact same thing with companions and only Lutri gets banned.
And the best way to fill a deck for the odd/even requirement is just the cards like Persistent Petitioners or Relentless Rats.
Its outright hypocrisy to not allow wishboards but allow companions as you can have 3 companions in your companion-board, but having 3 cards in your wishboard is breaking the bank. And if Lutri, the Spellchaser wasn't preempetively banned, you could have 4 in the companion-board if you just went odd and actually built a deck that wasn't filled with Relentless Rats.
3-card Wishboard: 103 cards.
3-card Companionboard: 103 cards.
One of these is considered heresy to the format, the other is allowed aside from one card.
Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name
Scratching hag, you rake your claws, gnash your crooked teeth
You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
- Children of the Elder Gods by Poets of the Fall
I'm... not... disputing that???
It's obvious why Lutri was banned since Companion is being ruled to work in commander. My argument is that the entire Companion mechanic SHOULDN'T work in commander, just like the wishes don't work (at which point there would have been no need to ban Lutri). It creates unnecessary and messy inconsistencies in how the rules treat cards that refer to sideboards/outside the game by allowing it.
Lutri shouldn't be banned, but companion shouldn't work, thus taking away its auto-include status and just making it "bad dualcaster*".
*Yes it could be in your command zone (as your Commander), but so can Naru Meha, and you can blink her where you can't blink Lutri.
also - deck construction rules apply only to the cards in your deck so this will have to change somehow as well to make color identity restriction apply to companions.
people are also pointing out general problem with verifying deck legality but that problem is not specific to edh.
and on top of that we still do not have actual update to the rules, only people from rc and wotc posts and articles. sigh...
lutri has some risks since you could run duplicates but not cast the second, for example with a card you think should always win the game if it resolves, which would increase the likelihood of drawing it. Doesn’t matter for us, though, obviously.
I don’t think the RC needed to change the rules to allow it, but I’m glad they did. It looks like a lot of fun, worth some slight rules complications imo. My favourite part is that it provides justification for de-powering a deck. I’m sure I’ll play them a lot.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
None of us actually like the idea behind the companion mechanic and we are all just going to ignore it.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Most of you all seem pretty OCD about some ad hoc rule that can be abridged. In six months none of this will be an issue, and people will or won’t be using Companion cards. Either way the game will keep on keeping on.