Quote from Tyler 7888 »I just want to know how competitive can Yawgmoth be?
Quote from Tears of Tomorrow (post EU) »He's as competitive as a monocolored deck can be in this format. I call him the best mono-black commander by a mile, but the lack of diverse answers to enemy strategies might hurt. But I really need to reiterate: what I feel holds him back is the color identity, NOT the abilities: those are perfectly viable in even 100% cEDH.
Quote from darrenhabib »I'd give him the perfect score of 5/7.
Quote from GloriousGoose »Urza? Yisan? Teferi? Selvala? Sidisi?
Quote from Tears of Tomorrow (post EU) »Urza, Yisan, Teferi and Selvala are all decks made great by the fact that their playstyle allows them to circumvent the inherent problem of their color identity. Like, they still suffer from lack of diverse answers to enemy strategies, but in their case it doesn't matter because they don't care about answering in the first place: they just want to power out a combo as quickly as possible. They all fall under what would be called a "turbo" deck in Yugioh jargon which, yes, makes them more competitive than Yawgmoth, but that doesn't change the fact that Yawgmoth is still as competitive as a mono black is going to be (I.E. not as much as those other guys you mentioned, but still decent).
As for Sidisi, I frankly don't get why you included her: if you're going to amass recurring creatures for her to exploit, then she's just as clunky as Yawgmoth because, as others mentioned, black by itself is not the best color for consistently providing fodder. And if you're going to sac herself to her own ability, then she's literally a Razaketh's Rite in the command zone: if the goal is doubling up on tutors so as to bring out a combo as quickly as possible, then I'd rather have her in the 99 and a combo piece, such as Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or, yes, Yawgmoth himself as the commander.
Quote from GloriousGoose »How do you envision Yawgmoth winning?
Quote from Tears of Tomorrow (post EU) »So yeah, in a 75% environment where creatures are still relevant, Yawgmoth is exceptional on the account of being able to kill enemy creatures while drawing you cards to set up a combo like the one I mentioned above. And in a full 100% cEDH environment Yawgmoth is still decent, but he cannot match the speed and efficiency of those blue and green combo commanders you mentioned: given that his main gimmick cannot be fueled as efficiently in mono black, I dare say that's the most you can expect a mono black commander to do.
Thus I repeat: Yawgmoth is the best mono black commander, and is as competitive as a mono black deck is going to be... Which, sadly, means not as much as other color identities are capable of
Quote from Tears of Tomorrow (post EU) »1) Depends on the situation. Unlike in cEDH (where the only creatures that matter are mana dorks and combo pieces), in 75% there are plenty of targets to take care of, depending on the kind of deck the opponent is using. And I specifically stated that line about killing creatures was only relevant for 75%, NOT for 100% cEDH.
2) You answered your own question further down in your post. Black also has access to a plethora of other options for fueling Yawgmoth which are, however, quite inefficient. I did mention that being one of the main issues with mono black, but it is a problem that lies in the color identity, not in the abilities of the card.
3) He's decent because he enables combos, meaning that combos involving him require one less tutor to be found, given that one of the pieces is in your command zone. And black is the best color for tutoring to begin with, so assembling one of those combos is going to be reasonably easy, albeit not as fast as the guys you mentioned for mono blue/green (simply because blue has better draw/utility, and green has faster mana ramp: that's just how the color pi works). As for the lack of meaningful interaction I'm sorry, I thought at some point a guy by the name of GloriousGoose had mentioned interaction not being as important when you're just trying to power out a combo as fast as possible? I was working under that same assumption. Besides, the lack of interaction beyond killing creatures is a problem shared by all black decks, so we're back to my original point: that Yawgmoth's weakness lies in his color identity, not in his ability.
Saying that a deck lacks answers is kind of irrelevant if your opponents are already dead.
4) On Sidisi: again, she either faces the same issues as Yawgmoth, or she's literally a command zone tutor. Which don't get me wrong, is decently cool, but if all you want to do is tutor up Ad Nauseam then you might as well pay literally any other commander, put all existing tutors in your deck, and mulligan until you open with one in your hand. Many tutors available to black are actually cheaper than Sidisi, letting you go off one turn earlier.
5) On Xiahou: does he really combo out "more efficiently" than Yawgmoth? The latter can actively contribute to your search for combo pieces by drawing you cards. Do not underestimate the ability to draw at instant speed for no mana cost. Xiahou cannot consistently give you that utility and combo potential unti his engine is online, while Yawgmoth can, in a pinch, help you draw into his own engine. The only counter-argument to this is pointing out, once again, that supplying fuel for Yawgmoth's ability to draw us cards is not that easy, and can in fact be as problematic as Xiahou's own need for an engine in order to function... And thus we're once again back to my original point: that what really holds back this card is its color identity, rather than its abilities.
6) On Chainer: his loop-enabling activated ability costs mana, Yawgmoth's doesn't. Again, do not underestimate the power of an instant-speed sac outlet/draw engine with no mana cost.
7) On Erebos: his activated ability also costs mana... And as you said, he's all about finding an use for "surplus" resources. I thought we had agreed that our goal in cEDH was to combo off BEFORE getting to the point where we'd even have "surplus" resources?
But this doesn't change the fact that Yawgmoth's abilities as printed are in themselves more powerful than those seen on any other mono black commander so far: they draw you cards, enable infinite combos AND provide a potential alternate wincon. No other mono black commander can claim to have all three these aspects rolled into its abilities: Sidisi doesn't enable combos (she merely searches them), Xiahou doesn't draw cards, Chainer cannot actively set up his own combos and also costs mana to use, Erebos is not a combo piece, neither is Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Mikaeus doesn't contribute anything to the deck until it's time to come into play and get the combo going, Volrath and Drana are voltron finishers (which is arguably a lesser way of winning in cEDH), and so on so forth.
Theses 3 things Yawgmoth's abilities do cannot glue a deck together and get it to explode as quickly or as efficiently as the abilities of other commanders of other colors, simply because those other commanders are better supported by their respective color identities: this is also a fact, but the problem lies in the color identity, not in the abilities themselves.
I therefore repeat: Yawgmoth is as competitive as a mono black deck is ever going to be. Which means decently competitive, but not as competitive as other, better, color identities.
Quote from GloriousGoose »How many games with Yawgmoth do you have under your belt in a semi-competitive and above EDH environment?
Quote from bobthefunnyYup. It doesn't change zones. It simply holds a sign up saying "I'm not here!" if anything comes looking for it.
Quote from Blinking Spirit »Quote from magickware99 »How do you achieve the state of "above being logical"?I dunno. You tell me.
Quote from magickware99 »How do you achieve the state of "above being logical"?
Quote from Tears of Tomorrow (post EU) »About 15. All my games are semi-competitive and above, because I play with the kind of people who would sooner get a cheap proxy of an original dual land than play a Tarkir triple land. The kind of people who spend hours calculating the chances of each possible hand. You know when people post in this forum lamenting that their LGS was taken over by insufferable tryhards who suck the fun out of the game? Yeah, that's the people I play with.
You seem bent on winning this crusade about the evil ToT who dared to say that Yawgmoth is a great competitive commander... But I never said that. All I said is that he's stronger than his mono-black ilk and that he's very good in 75% environments while still being able to hold his own in more competitive environments. HOLD HIS OWN, not OMG THIS IS THE BEST COMMANDER EVER HE WINS EVERY GAME PLAY THIS DECK NEW META or whatever youtubers say in the titles of their videos.
Imagine an italian guy ranking 47th in a chess world cup, with the other italian players being placed much lower: is that guy a world-class player and a tournament winner? Absolutely not. But he's still the best among the italian players. That's kind of my argument in regards to Yawgmoth: I never claimed that he was a top-tier competitive pick, but still it's a fact that, in an environment where all mono-black decks perform poorly, he performs a bit better than his ilk, which makes him the best of his ilk. If this offends you to the point of starting a crusade over it, it's frankly not my problem.
It seems to me that the issue here is that you and I have a very different definition of the word "viable". I could write an entire essay on the topic of the "top tier fallacy" (long story short, the definition most people have of what constitutes a "top tier" is based on a textbook case of circular logic), but it seems to me that such a debate would derail this topic even more than it already has.
Quote from GloriousGoose »
I don't see Yawgie beating a random selection of tier 1 cEDH decks greater than 12.5% of the time. Therefore, I don't think Yagwmoth is cEDH viable. Of course, you're free to dispute that definition as well as Yawgmoth's ability to achieve that win percentage.
Quote from Tyler 7888 »First of all, I would like to thank you and goose for giving me all this info to ponder, I appreciate it. One question I still have is how exactly are the bloodghast(recurrable)/(undying) like effects inefficient? also, could I see your decklist for Yawgmoth?