Is Sheldon really complaining about a turn 5 Sorin which doesn't even kill a player by turn 7 and did nothing the rest of the game, which went to turn 14 with the guy targeted by Sorin still alive, and equate that to an arms race to knock the player with Sorin out of the game by turn 4?
No. Sorin wasn't the point of that. What happened at first with Sorin was just a moment he could use to illustrate the concepts of:
Differing expectations between players who haven't had The Talk (rule 0) beforehand. Three of them had played with each other enough to be pretty much on the same page as far as what they considered 75%, whereas Gavin hadn't. 75% is as much about the plays you make as it is what cards you've build with - not to mention it's relative to your meta. That play could very well have been 75% in Gavin's meta. The point was how that play was perceived in-context.
How certain actions in a game (like getting your life set to 10 on turn 5) can precipitate an arms race. This one was more alluded to than spelled out.
Seems pretty straightforward to me and not "mental gymnastics". He even is on Gavin's side not long after for targeting Toby.
This is how I read it as well. Though, what this really illustrates is the fact that honest discussion needs to take place beforehand to ensure games meet everybody’s expectations. Clearly, 75% doesn’t travel well. Just talk about the decks you’re playing, I don’t really see how difficult it is.
I forgot a third point: That they had discussed the philosophy and things in abstract together a lot, but it turned out differently where the rubber meets the road. There's no substitute for playing and discussion at that time, in that context. So I liked at the end where he was talking about getting around and playing more to get to know Commander players in practical context. That's a very good sign.
(snip)
Seems pretty straightforward to me and not "mental gymnastics".
Thank you for the reply. I disagree and find that the logic which begins with "turn 5 Sorin" and concludes with "an arms race" is ridiculous and requires such mental gymnastics to pull off.
After setting a player to 10, Sorin is left at one loyalty and needs three undisturbed rounds at the table to be ready to do it again. If that causes the table to panic, then we are saying a lot more about the EDHRC and what Sheldon thinks of the community as a whole than we are of thevampire planeswalkerin question.
Setting a player to 10 does not knock them out of the game. Additional setup is still required to deal that 10 damage and finish the job. If a player leaves themselves completely open to such an attack, then they need to improve. Otherwise, the player casting Sorin Markov has to have worked together with others and established a plan,which is table politics and good for the game. For example: "Look, Player X is way ahead and needs to be taken out before they can kill the rest of us. I cannot do it alone, but I can set them to 10 with Sorin Markov. Can you (singular or plural, as we lack such a distinction in English) finish the job?" Which, in this case, the person being targeted is the one who has failed to live up to Sheldon's "theory of being second best", not the person casting Sorin.
How does this, in any way, lead to an arms race?
In a 75% deck, tutors are not banned, but discouraged, and Sheldon promotes that we "embrace the chaos" of singleton by using as few and narrow tutors as possible. To insist that the threat of turn 5 Sorn Markov is grounds to start an arms race also implies any sense of consistency at achieving such a play line. The fact is that "Turn 5 Sorin" does not win the game, did not win the game in his example, nor does/did it threaten to win the game any time soon.
Who is honestly going into game two thinking, "We had all better gang up on the deck with Sorin Markov before they cast it on turn five and lowers one player to 10 life and then... um, I dunno, kills that player on turn 7 and then we still keep playing until turn 14! Get him!"??? Is that the arms race one fears? Is that the instigation to use an infinite combo to kill the table? Is this all a big troll job that I fell for?
Sigh.
Warnings against arms races seems to be Sheldon's kick right now, as it was also the main point of the article which sparked this thread.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I too find the sorin thing confusing - I guess it maybe has more to do with being overly harsh to a single player than it does being a powerful play? It’s definitely a weird thing to find particularly egregious.
It does seem like a bad play to me. I’d wait until a threat had better been established, or better, wait until it’s 1:1.
This is how I read it as well. Though, what this really illustrates is the fact that honest discussion needs to take place beforehand to ensure games meet everybody’s expectations. Clearly, 75% doesn’t travel well. Just talk about the decks you’re playing, I don’t really see how difficult it is.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
How does this, in any way, lead to an arms race?
In a 75% deck, tutors are not banned, but discouraged, and Sheldon promotes that we "embrace the chaos" of singleton by using as few and narrow tutors as possible. To insist that the threat of turn 5 Sorn Markov is grounds to start an arms race also implies any sense of consistency at achieving such a play line. The fact is that "Turn 5 Sorin" does not win the game, did not win the game in his example, nor does/did it threaten to win the game any time soon.
Who is honestly going into game two thinking, "We had all better gang up on the deck with Sorin Markov before they cast it on turn five and lowers one player to 10 life and then... um, I dunno, kills that player on turn 7 and then we still keep playing until turn 14! Get him!"??? Is that the arms race one fears? Is that the instigation to use an infinite combo to kill the table? Is this all a big troll job that I fell for?
Sigh.
Warnings against arms races seems to be Sheldon's kick right now, as it was also the main point of the article which sparked this thread.
It does seem like a bad play to me. I’d wait until a threat had better been established, or better, wait until it’s 1:1.
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