The life total should not change, but even if it did, that won't stop combo;
[...]
Not only is there no way to stop combo from being the best way to kill a table...
Hard to say if 30 life would change much - likely it wouldn't imo - but it's not like changing life totals couldn't stop combo in principle. Change life totals to, say, 3, and combo is immediately dead (and burn is the new king).
Obviously that's an extreme example but there's presumably some happy medium for competitive play. A life total that low would likely drastically change casual play, though, probably more than is healthy.
cEDH player checking in with some of my thoughts, though it sounds like we're all at least mostly in agreement.
Firstly, combos are easier, faster, more available, and more resilient nowadays. That's just going to happen as you print more cards. But would I say combo is more prevalent? No. I don't think so at all. If people are going down the combo route now, they would have done so before. Arms race was happening in my playgroup in 2011, it's the natural progression of things. Why is Sheldon talking about it now? Because he's starting to actually play EDH with people outside his niche and realizing that a large percentage of people don't play the game the way he does. Immediately after, he started the Commander Advisory Group as a way to combat being so out of the loop.
Anyone pretending Sheldon just now started playing with people outside "his niche" really have not been paying attention.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
cEDH player checking in with some of my thoughts, though it sounds like we're all at least mostly in agreement.
Firstly, combos are easier, faster, more available, and more resilient nowadays. That's just going to happen as you print more cards. But would I say combo is more prevalent? No. I don't think so at all. If people are going down the combo route now, they would have done so before. Arms race was happening in my playgroup in 2011, it's the natural progression of things. Why is Sheldon talking about it now? Because he's starting to actually play EDH with people outside his niche and realizing that a large percentage of people don't play the game the way he does. Immediately after, he started the Commander Advisory Group as a way to combat being so out of the loop.
Anyone pretending Sheldon just now started playing with people outside "his niche" really have not been paying attention.
I thought he played with a group of empty wine bottles.......
cEDH player checking in with some of my thoughts, though it sounds like we're all at least mostly in agreement.
Firstly, combos are easier, faster, more available, and more resilient nowadays. That's just going to happen as you print more cards. But would I say combo is more prevalent? No. I don't think so at all. If people are going down the combo route now, they would have done so before. Arms race was happening in my playgroup in 2011, it's the natural progression of things. Why is Sheldon talking about it now? Because he's starting to actually play EDH with people outside his niche and realizing that a large percentage of people don't play the game the way he does. Immediately after, he started the Commander Advisory Group as a way to combat being so out of the loop.
So how do we take combo down a peg?
The life total should not change, but even if it did, that won't stop combo; Ring/Crypt should be banned but that won't stop combo;
I don't personally condone banning any tutors, but even if some were, that won't stop combo; and
I actually agree with MRHBlue that there are too many combos of comparable power to warrant banning any of them.
Not only is there no way to stop combo from being the best way to kill a table, but arms race is inevitable (barring a discussion about power level that brings everyone to absolute agreement, something I consider almost impossible considering most people want different things out of this game).
And to derail some more: blue is the strongest color, followed by green and a very close black, then white, then a distant red (however for mono color decks, white is the worst)
Banning fast mana also slows down combo decks because they can't use that as a crutch to outpace the rest of the table.
Banning the cheapest costed tutors is like the prior as they need the requisite mana and without fast mana the tutors come out slower.
Banning the most egregious combo enablers (like Paradox Engine for example getting banned) means decks can't rely on it and have to resort to less powerful combos as a result.
You don't ban everything, you ban the things that allow the game to spiral out too fast. If you want a slower paced format, you ban the cards that are too efficient and too fast. Letting them sit and fester within the format is just like letting an infected injury go unattended and hoping it just sorts itself out. That people be acting like:
Paradox Engine getting banned is a step in the right direction as it will lead to more healthy types of decks. If you want to see a more casual format, you need the banlist to help enforce that. Without that enforcement, people will do what they want, and only be stopped by intervention of other players, and if its the same tired song and dance about how this person should change up their deck and not included whatever busted card they used because its unbanned, mayhaps its not the individual in question who is at fault. As by all rules within the format, they are correctly behaving and following them. If you feel this is against the spirit of the format, then you are letting this very same spirit become infected by more and more egregious cards that are anything but casual and again as reflected by the "this is fine" meme.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
If everybody played EDH the way it’s laid out in that article, then subforums like these probably wouldn’t exist. At least ones that get so heated, or turn into flat out pissing contests.
I understand what the RC is doing, but it feels like the vast majority do not. We have a thread discussing the ban list and folks grilling the Iona ban because Painter/Grindtsone, Ugin, Karn/Lattice is a thing. When in reality, the whole point is swooping over their heads. The point of the Iona ban was “Don’t play s*** like this if you are trying to keep the game enjoyable for everybody and not “She’s the pinnacle of oppressive in this format”.
Most people will say he’s out of touch, I know I have. But, to date, this is the most complete article he’s written about his “vision of the format”, and I 100% respect that. What he’s describing is what I like to play, and are the types of people I like to play with. The problem is, the formats palyerbase has devolved to “just win baby”, and it’s unfortunate.
I honestly love combos, along with any alternate win conditions. They're one of the reasons MTG is the best strategy game and is such a diverse game. When we don't wanna play against decks that win turns 1-5, my playgroup just plays budget <$10 a card decks (with the exceptions of legendary creatures and planeswalkers in those decks). In those games, every strategy is viable and nobody gets locked out of the game unless they did it to themselves by building a really terrible deck. Even then, we don't mind combos because they're easy to stop in that setting and take a lot to get through 3+ other players.
The way I see it, it's just not really worth buying and playing with an expensive card if you're not looking to win as fast as possible with it (with the exception of legendary creatures and walkers). I also think if you're trying to win as fast as possible then it's a bit immature to expect differently of anybody else at the table. And if your deck can't deal with combos or stax pieces even in a budget game, then that's really more on your deck building and threat assessment skills than anything else.
EDIT: It's worth noting for context that the budget I'm referring to is based on TCGPlayer median prices, and not based on how much someone might actually spend to obtain the card.
If everybody played EDH the way it’s laid out in that article, then subforums like these probably wouldn’t exist. At least ones that get so heated, or turn into flat out pissing contests.
Meh, i played EDH that way for years and was really happy. My whole playgroup was happy.
Then came a guy who tought himself to be smart because he could google "mikaeus + triskelion combo" and that was it.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
If everybody played EDH the way it’s laid out in that article, then subforums like these probably wouldn’t exist. At least ones that get so heated, or turn into flat out pissing contests.
Meh, i played EDH that way for years and was really happy. My whole playgroup was happy.
Then came a guy who tought himself to be smart because he could google "mikaeus + triskelion combo" and that was it.
you think he went out of his way to find that combo and that's some horrible offense, but it really isn't. its natural progression of the game. if he went out of his way to find a combo, or he found it accidentally, it doesn't really make a difference. this just happens to be the one he used. there have been a lot of games over the years where i've seen someone go 'oh that's a combo' and they've woops into it and now its what they gun for every time.
you can't really stop the arms race that is magic deck building. you can try to mitigate it through bannings, but thats about it. even then you ban one thing and then something else crops up, then something else, then something else, then something else.
the philosophy behind edh was sound years ago, or would be with a very static pool of cards to pick from. that's not a reality that exists with new sets coming out all the time. every single set ends up with cards that break other cards intentional or otherwise. players find them. even a casual group will become competitive
wotc can't keep up with problems in the format because its ruled by the committee, they also can't really print much that's going to have immediate or long term impacts because so much of the data on what's a problem is fairly hidden compared to say standard, modern, or even legacy
the committee lately has been very out of touch and laughable in their approach.
to ban iona... can you remember the last time you even saw someone PLAY iona?
yet bigger offenders are untouched. fast mana which enables games to get out of hand quickly. craterhoof, when was the last time you saw a deck sporting green NOT win with a hoof? what about the eot cyclonic rift into a win? expropriate into table scoops? i see these every. single. edh night. there's so much more out there thats "against the spirit of edh" that's just completely ignored.
to ban iona... can you remember the last time you even saw someone PLAY iona?
Did you read the article? Did you read what I said above?
At this point, it’s laughable for anybody not to see the Iona ban for what it really was.
Sheldon went so far as to say himself the banlist is expected to be kept short. Do you really think that it would be in the best interest of the format to ban a metric sh** ton of cards to make the point of “hey, don’t be a dick”? That’s what Iona is. A dick move. She adds absolutely nothing to the games she gets played in. Are there better, easier, more efficient options? Damn Skippy. But, when you’re crafting that deck to take out to some group of friends or to-be acquaintances, you should remember that Iona is banned because she’s a fun-suck. So don’t be a fun-suck. If the people you’ve played with for years don’t care about fun-sucking, or thrive on the sucking of fun, then go ahead, play Winter Orb and Friends. Hell, even ask if you can play Iona herself. There is literally nobody stopping you, not even the RC.
There doesn’t have to be an arms race. We are all out here competing for absolutely nothing. At least the people who the format is catered to, anyways.
There doesn’t have to be an arms race. We are all out here competing for absolutely nothing. At least the people who the format is catered to, anyways.
This is the most important part. Commander is not supposed to be a hardcore competitive format. It was made to enjoy casual and funny builds, where you could play cards you wouldn't be playing anywhere else. It is meant to promote social interaction and provide fun for everyone at the table, letting everyone play their decks as intended.
Now obviously, if playing combo/stax is the definition of fun for everyone at the table and/or everyone enjoys playing cEDH decks, then so be it. Nobody is stopping you, but I find it a bit silly to expect the RC to ban cards that are problematic in a competitive environment when that type of environment isn't supposed to be what the format is about.
As for power level, arms race aren't needed at all, they are not an inevitable progression. You are supposed to discuss with your playgroup what is and isn't acceptable (social interaction). I know everyone doesn't share the same tastes but then, you are not forced to play with everyone either. If I want to still play silly stuff like Bird Tribal or Energy or whatever, why should I feel the need to keep increasing the power level of my decks? That would only lead to less archetypes being viable, and that's not what I'm looking for. If you don't have a regular playgroup, then I feel your pain, but they aren't really any good solution. Try to talk beforehand and maybe borrow a deck.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
you think he went out of his way to find that combo and that's some horrible offense, but it really isn't. its natural progression of the game. if he went out of his way to find a combo, or he found it accidentally, it doesn't really make a difference. this just happens to be the one he used. there have been a lot of games over the years where i've seen someone go 'oh that's a combo' and they've woops into it and now its what they gun for every time.
And there are people who go 'whoa need to change one of those cards'. Claiming build to infinite and power is natural rejects people's choice.
you can't really stop the arms race that is magic deck building. you can try to mitigate it through bannings, but thats about it. even then you ban one thing and then something else crops up, then something else, then something else, then something else.
the philosophy behind edh was sound years ago, or would be with a very static pool of cards to pick from. that's not a reality that exists with new sets coming out all the time. every single set ends up with cards that break other cards intentional or otherwise. players find them. even a casual group will become competitive
No, groups often self-mitigate because they don't want to deal with this stuff. Stating the opposite as a known fact is just purposely disingenuous
to ban iona... can you remember the last time you even saw someone PLAY iona?
Yes, it sucked. Just like it sucked every time. Banning stuff like that should be exactly what the list hits.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I agree with what people are saying is the intention of the format, but the progressive slide is inevitable in my experiences.
When I began in late 2007, it was the bulk rare and common/uncommon box fodder format. Nobody was using their good cards. Nobody was breaking apart their legacy or vintage decks to use original dual lands and fetch lands. However, it did not take long for that to change.
Even in the most casual of EDH games, it still feels bad to hold a 6cmc spell you are dying to cast and you top deck a land which has an EtB tapped clause and are set back a whole round at the table. As a result, it become a priority to invest in a stable and consistent mana base. Before you know it, your deck(s) are not budget anymore and the feeling you get from "The sunk cost fallacy" creeps in. It doesn't even have to be an arms race, but simply justifying the cost of what you have invested in.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Wanting us to self police does way more harm than good. Ban cards that you think don’t belong in the format, don’t say they’re mean and contribute to group infighting.
Wanting us to self police does way more harm than good. Ban cards that you think don’t belong in the format, don’t say they’re mean and contribute to group infighting.
I strongly disagree: Adults should be able to self-police, and it keeps the ban list short. He is allowed an opinion on what he does not like to see without just making everyone do so with a ban.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Turn 5 Sorin Markov is just too stronk for 75% meta.
Wow. I was not prepared for that.
Gavin (Kethis): Plains, Sorin Markov. We laugh, thinking he's not going to "ten" somebody. To the surprise of three of us, he sets Toby to (10), then attacks him to (7). In fact, Toby's still laughing and doesn't initially realize he's been targeted. It becomes the source of a brief conversation, mostly because there were people waiting to grab games afterward with us. It could have gone longer and deeper.
To be fair, we never had a pre-game Rule 0 chat, because I think all of us assumed we didn't have to. To be even more fair, Toby, Scott, and I have played lots of games together since the last time more than one of us have played with Gavin. Three of us settled into a power level agreement over the years, and it's firmly 75%. Turn 5 Sorin definitely doesn't fit that model.
In the abstract, it's a perfectly acceptable play. It's only less so if it's outside of a group's comfort zone. Since we hadn't had the group discussion involving Gavin, it's a fair play, even if I'm not a fan of what the play does (see below). Gavin's argument was a version of “Toby's already getting out of hand,” which is somewhat reasonable under the circumstances. Theoretically, I disagree that it's a good play, because even if it cripples or kills the one player, the other two are thinking “I don't want him to do that to me,” which makes you the archenemy (and for me would violate my theory of being second best).
The play itself isn't what I'm saying is problematic; it's what the play does in the bigger picture that slips us down the slope. Knowing that Turn 5 Sorin is a distinct possibility, the best defense is to kill the Sorin player on Turn 4—which is where the problem starts, as it ramps up the arms race really quickly.
Talk about mental gymnastics. I am dumbstruck. He deserves an Olympic gold for that performance.
In this story, Gavin didn't even get a kill with Sorin Markov. He simply set somebody to 10 and then swung for three. When I cast Sorin, it is when I have at least 10 power in play and am ready to end somebody on the spot.
I honestly do not even understand how the play line described gave him the six mana needed for his fourth turn play of Kethis, the Hidden Hand and Helm of Kaldra. He made each land drop and only ramped with Sac-Tribe Elder, which means he should have only had five mana on turn four, but this is a side observation.
Then, after turn 5 Sorin, it is not until turn 7 that he was able to kill Toby, who was eventually saved anyway.
We never hear about what happened to Sorin Markov after it was cast. One has to assume it was killed, as we never hear about Gavin giving him +2 or activating his ability to set anybody else to 10 later in the match. This is the big weakness of Sorin, as it cannot outright kill one player alone, only set up a kill while sitting in play with one loyalty and a table of two or more opponents to pick it off.
Is Sheldon really complaining about a turn 5 Sorin which doesn't even kill a player by turn 7 and did nothing the rest of the game, which went to turn 14 with the guy targeted by Sorin still alive, and equate that to an arms race to knock the player with Sorin out of the game by turn 4? I am again dumbfounded by the insanity and stupidity of such an article.
Thanks for sharing. That was painful.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I honestly do not even understand how the play line described gave him the six mana needed for his fourth turn play of Kethis, the Hidden Hand and Helm of Kaldra. He made each land drop and only ramped with Sac-Tribe Elder, which means he should have only had five mana on turn four, but this is a side observation.
The Helm is legendary, so Kethis reduces its cost by one.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
I honestly do not even understand how the play line described gave him the six mana needed for his fourth turn play of Kethis, the Hidden Hand and Helm of Kaldra. He made each land drop and only ramped with Sac-Tribe Elder, which means he should have only had five mana on turn four, but this is a side observation.
The Helm is legendary, so Kethis reduces its cost by one.
Thanks, I had head errata which changed it to legendary creatures.
By the way, head errata is real and we do it all the time. For example, try reading Floral Spuzzem and find the error.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I honestly do not even understand how the play line described gave him the six mana needed for his fourth turn play of Kethis, the Hidden Hand and Helm of Kaldra. He made each land drop and only ramped with Sac-Tribe Elder, which means he should have only had five mana on turn four, but this is a side observation.
The Helm is legendary, so Kethis reduces its cost by one.
Thanks, I had head errata which changed it to legendary creatures.
By the way, head errata is real and we do it all the time. For example, try reading Floral Spuzzem and find the error.
You need to wait long enough for Floral Spuzzem to make a decision?
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
You need to wait long enough for Floral Spuzzem to make a decision?
You got it. Show it to players who have never seen it before and see how they react.
In my experience, anybody who has never seen it before will stare at it for a while and not get it. I have had crowds try to figure out what is wrong with it because of how easily we as magic players read things and errata it in our heads.
This is why Demigod of Revenge as to be explained with the stack. This is why it took the community a while to realize Mangara of Corondor did not exile himself as part of the cost, but rather part of the resolution and could be saved with the likes of Momentary Blink and flicker effects.there are other examples, but you get the point. Now back to the main topic...
... seriously, Sheldon doesn't even understand 75% magic, does he? Neither does the RC it seems. Sorin on turn 5 that doesn't even kill one player is over powered? Do they also want the NFL to become flag football?
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Is Sheldon really complaining about a turn 5 Sorin which doesn't even kill a player by turn 7 and did nothing the rest of the game, which went to turn 14 with the guy targeted by Sorin still alive, and equate that to an arms race to knock the player with Sorin out of the game by turn 4?
No. Sorin wasn't the point of that. What happened at first with Sorin was just a moment he could use to illustrate the concepts of:
Differing expectations between players who haven't had The Talk (rule 0) beforehand. Three of them had played with each other enough to be pretty much on the same page as far as what they considered 75%, whereas Gavin hadn't. 75% is as much about the plays you make as it is what cards you've build with - not to mention it's relative to your meta. That play could very well have been 75% in Gavin's meta. The point was how that play was perceived in-context.
How certain actions in a game (like getting your life set to 10 on turn 5) can precipitate an arms race. This one was more alluded to than spelled out.
Seems pretty straightforward to me and not "mental gymnastics". He even is on Gavin's side not long after for targeting Toby.
Obviously that's an extreme example but there's presumably some happy medium for competitive play. A life total that low would likely drastically change casual play, though, probably more than is healthy.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I thought he played with a group of empty wine bottles.......
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
instead of a life total, the bottle is defeated when it's empty? *deals 5 damage,takes five sips* like that?
this guy gets it.
Banning the cheapest costed tutors is like the prior as they need the requisite mana and without fast mana the tutors come out slower.
Banning the most egregious combo enablers (like Paradox Engine for example getting banned) means decks can't rely on it and have to resort to less powerful combos as a result.
You don't ban everything, you ban the things that allow the game to spiral out too fast. If you want a slower paced format, you ban the cards that are too efficient and too fast. Letting them sit and fester within the format is just like letting an infected injury go unattended and hoping it just sorts itself out. That people be acting like:
Paradox Engine getting banned is a step in the right direction as it will lead to more healthy types of decks. If you want to see a more casual format, you need the banlist to help enforce that. Without that enforcement, people will do what they want, and only be stopped by intervention of other players, and if its the same tired song and dance about how this person should change up their deck and not included whatever busted card they used because its unbanned, mayhaps its not the individual in question who is at fault. As by all rules within the format, they are correctly behaving and following them. If you feel this is against the spirit of the format, then you are letting this very same spirit become infected by more and more egregious cards that are anything but casual and again as reflected by the "this is fine" meme.
The Latest Commander Philosophy And Banned List Update
Thoughts?
My thoughts?
If everybody played EDH the way it’s laid out in that article, then subforums like these probably wouldn’t exist. At least ones that get so heated, or turn into flat out pissing contests.
I understand what the RC is doing, but it feels like the vast majority do not. We have a thread discussing the ban list and folks grilling the Iona ban because Painter/Grindtsone, Ugin, Karn/Lattice is a thing. When in reality, the whole point is swooping over their heads. The point of the Iona ban was “Don’t play s*** like this if you are trying to keep the game enjoyable for everybody and not “She’s the pinnacle of oppressive in this format”.
Most people will say he’s out of touch, I know I have. But, to date, this is the most complete article he’s written about his “vision of the format”, and I 100% respect that. What he’s describing is what I like to play, and are the types of people I like to play with. The problem is, the formats palyerbase has devolved to “just win baby”, and it’s unfortunate.
The way I see it, it's just not really worth buying and playing with an expensive card if you're not looking to win as fast as possible with it (with the exception of legendary creatures and walkers). I also think if you're trying to win as fast as possible then it's a bit immature to expect differently of anybody else at the table. And if your deck can't deal with combos or stax pieces even in a budget game, then that's really more on your deck building and threat assessment skills than anything else.
EDIT: It's worth noting for context that the budget I'm referring to is based on TCGPlayer median prices, and not based on how much someone might actually spend to obtain the card.
Meh, i played EDH that way for years and was really happy. My whole playgroup was happy.
Then came a guy who tought himself to be smart because he could google "mikaeus + triskelion combo" and that was it.
you think he went out of his way to find that combo and that's some horrible offense, but it really isn't. its natural progression of the game. if he went out of his way to find a combo, or he found it accidentally, it doesn't really make a difference. this just happens to be the one he used. there have been a lot of games over the years where i've seen someone go 'oh that's a combo' and they've woops into it and now its what they gun for every time.
you can't really stop the arms race that is magic deck building. you can try to mitigate it through bannings, but thats about it. even then you ban one thing and then something else crops up, then something else, then something else, then something else.
the philosophy behind edh was sound years ago, or would be with a very static pool of cards to pick from. that's not a reality that exists with new sets coming out all the time. every single set ends up with cards that break other cards intentional or otherwise. players find them. even a casual group will become competitive
wotc can't keep up with problems in the format because its ruled by the committee, they also can't really print much that's going to have immediate or long term impacts because so much of the data on what's a problem is fairly hidden compared to say standard, modern, or even legacy
the committee lately has been very out of touch and laughable in their approach.
to ban iona... can you remember the last time you even saw someone PLAY iona?
yet bigger offenders are untouched. fast mana which enables games to get out of hand quickly. craterhoof, when was the last time you saw a deck sporting green NOT win with a hoof? what about the eot cyclonic rift into a win? expropriate into table scoops? i see these every. single. edh night. there's so much more out there thats "against the spirit of edh" that's just completely ignored.
Did you read the article? Did you read what I said above?
At this point, it’s laughable for anybody not to see the Iona ban for what it really was.
Sheldon went so far as to say himself the banlist is expected to be kept short. Do you really think that it would be in the best interest of the format to ban a metric sh** ton of cards to make the point of “hey, don’t be a dick”? That’s what Iona is. A dick move. She adds absolutely nothing to the games she gets played in. Are there better, easier, more efficient options? Damn Skippy. But, when you’re crafting that deck to take out to some group of friends or to-be acquaintances, you should remember that Iona is banned because she’s a fun-suck. So don’t be a fun-suck. If the people you’ve played with for years don’t care about fun-sucking, or thrive on the sucking of fun, then go ahead, play Winter Orb and Friends. Hell, even ask if you can play Iona herself. There is literally nobody stopping you, not even the RC.
There doesn’t have to be an arms race. We are all out here competing for absolutely nothing. At least the people who the format is catered to, anyways.
This is the most important part. Commander is not supposed to be a hardcore competitive format. It was made to enjoy casual and funny builds, where you could play cards you wouldn't be playing anywhere else. It is meant to promote social interaction and provide fun for everyone at the table, letting everyone play their decks as intended.
Now obviously, if playing combo/stax is the definition of fun for everyone at the table and/or everyone enjoys playing cEDH decks, then so be it. Nobody is stopping you, but I find it a bit silly to expect the RC to ban cards that are problematic in a competitive environment when that type of environment isn't supposed to be what the format is about.
As for power level, arms race aren't needed at all, they are not an inevitable progression. You are supposed to discuss with your playgroup what is and isn't acceptable (social interaction). I know everyone doesn't share the same tastes but then, you are not forced to play with everyone either. If I want to still play silly stuff like Bird Tribal or Energy or whatever, why should I feel the need to keep increasing the power level of my decks? That would only lead to less archetypes being viable, and that's not what I'm looking for. If you don't have a regular playgroup, then I feel your pain, but they aren't really any good solution. Try to talk beforehand and maybe borrow a deck.
No, groups often self-mitigate because they don't want to deal with this stuff. Stating the opposite as a known fact is just purposely disingenuous
Yes, it sucked. Just like it sucked every time. Banning stuff like that should be exactly what the list hits.
When I began in late 2007, it was the bulk rare and common/uncommon box fodder format. Nobody was using their good cards. Nobody was breaking apart their legacy or vintage decks to use original dual lands and fetch lands. However, it did not take long for that to change.
Even in the most casual of EDH games, it still feels bad to hold a 6cmc spell you are dying to cast and you top deck a land which has an EtB tapped clause and are set back a whole round at the table. As a result, it become a priority to invest in a stable and consistent mana base. Before you know it, your deck(s) are not budget anymore and the feeling you get from "The sunk cost fallacy" creeps in. It doesn't even have to be an arms race, but simply justifying the cost of what you have invested in.
Give Zaliki a CardI must have all the cats!
Turn 5 Sorin Markov is just too stronk for 75% meta.
Talk about mental gymnastics. I am dumbstruck. He deserves an Olympic gold for that performance.
In this story, Gavin didn't even get a kill with Sorin Markov. He simply set somebody to 10 and then swung for three. When I cast Sorin, it is when I have at least 10 power in play and am ready to end somebody on the spot.
I honestly do not even understand how the play line described gave him the six mana needed for his fourth turn play of Kethis, the Hidden Hand and Helm of Kaldra. He made each land drop and only ramped with Sac-Tribe Elder, which means he should have only had five mana on turn four, but this is a side observation.
Then, after turn 5 Sorin, it is not until turn 7 that he was able to kill Toby, who was eventually saved anyway.
We never hear about what happened to Sorin Markov after it was cast. One has to assume it was killed, as we never hear about Gavin giving him +2 or activating his ability to set anybody else to 10 later in the match. This is the big weakness of Sorin, as it cannot outright kill one player alone, only set up a kill while sitting in play with one loyalty and a table of two or more opponents to pick it off.
Is Sheldon really complaining about a turn 5 Sorin which doesn't even kill a player by turn 7 and did nothing the rest of the game, which went to turn 14 with the guy targeted by Sorin still alive, and equate that to an arms race to knock the player with Sorin out of the game by turn 4? I am again dumbfounded by the insanity and stupidity of such an article.
Thanks for sharing. That was painful.
The Helm is legendary, so Kethis reduces its cost by one.
By the way, head errata is real and we do it all the time. For example, try reading Floral Spuzzem and find the error.
You need to wait long enough for Floral Spuzzem to make a decision?
You got it. Show it to players who have never seen it before and see how they react.
In my experience, anybody who has never seen it before will stare at it for a while and not get it. I have had crowds try to figure out what is wrong with it because of how easily we as magic players read things and errata it in our heads.
This is why Demigod of Revenge as to be explained with the stack. This is why it took the community a while to realize Mangara of Corondor did not exile himself as part of the cost, but rather part of the resolution and could be saved with the likes of Momentary Blink and flicker effects.there are other examples, but you get the point. Now back to the main topic...
... seriously, Sheldon doesn't even understand 75% magic, does he? Neither does the RC it seems. Sorin on turn 5 that doesn't even kill one player is over powered? Do they also want the NFL to become flag football?
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