I was thinking about this based on DirkGently's post about it in another thread.
Got me thinking.
If you are playing a 2-colour deck and do not want to run 7 fetchlands (maybe because you do not like playing off-colour fetches or maybe because of budget), what is better? Something like Scoured Barrens or Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse?
Taplands will fix multiple colours. I expect most 2-colour decks are playing a scryland, a cycle land (if you are in an allied colour pair), and maybe a ravnica bounce land.
After that, there are gates, the ones that gain you life, and just generic come into play tapped lands.
Where would you rank TE and EW in there?
TE and EW will only fix for one colour, but they give you a shuffle effect, a land in the graveyard (for delve or for other interactions), and you can copy the activated ability. Their value changes depending on the deck. Most Ux decks should run them in my opinion as they can fuel Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time.
I actually find the 2-colour mana base to be the toughest to build in commander. How many basics can you play? Are Panoramas better than lands that enter tapped?
In a 2 colour deck, assuming 38 lands, you have
1. 1-7 fetch
2. 1 ABUR dual
3. 1 Shockland
4. 1 Checkland
5. 1 Command Tower
6. 1 Painland
7. 1 Filterland
8. 1 Prismatic Vista
So you have 9-17 locked in cards, depending on how you feel about fetches. Let's say 17.
Then you get into things that are not in every colour pairing. I believe this list gives you between 1 and 5 lands.
9. Tainted lands / one of the 3 remaining Future Sight lands / BFZ Duals / SOI Reveal lands / Canopy lands / Battlebond lands / Odyssey Filter lands
That makes up to 22 lands that enter untapped most of the time.
Then there are the best lands that enter tapped
10. Manlands / Scry lands / Ravnica Bounce Lands / Cycle Lands / / Fast lands (listed as tapped lands because most of the time they enter tapped in EDH).
11. Myriad Landscape and Path of Ancestry imo are pretty good
This would be another 7-11 lands. Our list is now between 18 and 29 lands.
Finally, we get to EW, TE, gates, lands that gain life, etc. If you are GW, you already have 29 lands here, so you can plug in some basics and be done. But if you are Izzet, you have 18 lands and need another 20. I think 20 basics is too many, so I would definitely want some of the weaker lands. Do you put City of Brass into your 2 colour deck? Or do you play TE and EW to have a shuffle effect/graveyard interaction/etc?
What if you do not want 7 fetches in each two colour deck and you do not have ABUR duals? Then you have a lot more open slots. Again, what do you do?
I do not know where to put Mirage Fetches on this list. I guess they are better than EW and TE in allied-colours, but in enemy colours they are probably worse. If you do not have an ABUR dual in your Izzet deck, there is only one 2-colour land the mirage fetches can get. EW is definitely better in that case.
Notes
*Maybe I missed some lands
**Not including utility lands that do not fix for mana. Depending on your colour requirements and the deck's interactions, you may not want any and you may want 10 of them. Hard to include in this list.
In any case, two colour decks are challenging because you are often forced to play subpar lands to fix your mana or a large number of basics. There may be certain synergistic considerations that influence which lands you play, but for the most part, for Boros, Izzet and Simic decks (which have the fewest fixing lands), would you play Evolving Wilds or Swiftwater Cliffs?
Depends a lot on context. If you're playing, say, niv-mizzet, parun with a budget manabase, then it's reasonable to run evolving wilds.
There are lot of lands you left out, though. Running down the list:
ODY filter
non-cycle lands from future sight (river of tears et al)
reveal-lands from SOI
Temples
cycling duals
man duals
slow lands
fast lands
battle lands
And then all the rainbow lands...
cavern of souls
city of brass
mana confluence
forbidden orchard
reflecting pool
gemstone caverns
path of ancestry
You did mention some, I'm guessing you left them off the list because they aren't available to enemy pairs? There are some available to all colors though (for example, fast lands and temples).
I could potentially see a deck that was 2-color enemy pair, and REALLY wanted to recur them (I don't think having a couple delve cards justifies it) it could be reasonable. So it's possible. My point was that, unless you're getting extra value - either you really want the shuffle, you really want the recursion, etc - then it's wrong to use them unless you're on a budget and have strict color requirements. Otherwise you should run another fixing land or a basic.
Depends a lot on context. If you're playing, say, niv-mizzet, parun with a budget manabase, then it's reasonable to run evolving wilds.
There are lot of lands you left out, though. Running down the list:
ODY filter
non-cycle lands from future sight (river of tears et al)
reveal-lands from SOI
Temples
cycling duals
man duals
slow lands
fast lands
battle lands
I mentioned all of these lands....
And then all the rainbow lands...
cavern of souls
city of brass
mana confluence
forbidden orchard
reflecting pool
gemstone caverns
path of ancestry
These lands are not always good... depends on the deck. Most of the time I expect two colour decks to play some of them.
You did mention some, I'm guessing you left them off the list because they aren't available to enemy pairs? There are some available to all colors though (for example, fast lands and temples).
I could potentially see a deck that was 2-color enemy pair, and REALLY wanted to recur them (I don't think having a couple delve cards justifies it) it could be reasonable. So it's possible. My point was that, unless you're getting extra value - either you really want the shuffle, you really want the recursion, etc - then it's wrong to use them unless you're on a budget and have strict color requirements. Otherwise you should run another fixing land or a basic.
So, if you were play Niv-Mizzet, would you play Evolving wilds or Swiftwater Cliffs? You are not playing 20 basics. You need some subpar lands.. right? EW interacts with more, that's for sure. Delve, copy effects, graveyard recursion, landfall.
I don't know. The main thing I am seeing is that there are way more good lands for allied-pairs than enemy pairs in EDH.
Well, to be fair, I've never played a commander with as stringent of color requirements as niv. That said, 20 basics doesn't seem insane. All your other lands are effectively either color, so you'd have to get very unlucky to hit more than 3 of the same color basics when playing ~10 of each. I think the bigger concern would be getting to 6 tbh.
Plus, you may well not want to slam down niv on 6 with no protection. So then the odds get even longer of getting color screwed.
So in 2 color decks it is very important to differentiate between enemy and allied pairs. There are at least 3 more sets of lands for allied pairs (though I think the gap is shrinking. Also, anything wiht Black in it has an additional land to consider (tainted).
In general I think most 2 color manabases can support approximately 3 lands that enter the battlefield tapped. So that's my guiding principle. I will do almost anything to avoid playing more than just the temple and then some utility lands like Mistveil Plains or halimar depths.
But in general when I build a budget 2 color manabase that is not using offcolor fetches, I will do the following - example from a UW deck:
That gives me 14 lands that tap for both colors. Then I will go to 7 of each basic, which gives you a nice round 21 sources of each color. 21 is a nice round number that gives you about an 80% of seeing 2 of each color in the first 11 cards after mulligans, maybe a hair more.
From there you can season to taste; add some basics of one color if it's over-represented (say you play lots of 3 pip spells of that color), add some utility lands of different colors.
Tons of other things go into it though. Like if you're in Green, you can think of your green ramp spells that get lands as color fixing, and in white you have stuff like land tax / weathered wayfarer, and so on.
Sometimes you want to play some stuff that finds basics like Armillary Sphere. And artifacts can fix, etc.
Re: Rainbow lands
It's probably just me but I will almost never play rainbow lands in 2 color manabases. The pain ones especially. The damage really can add up when you don't have a colorless mode to not take damage. Pain lands yes, rainbow pain no.
Reflecting pool is just OK. I tend to not like it a lot in 2 color because it can really screw you up. but it is reasonable I guess. Really depend son the deck and the mana needs.
------------------------------------------
To get to the TL;DR
I will only play any of the slow fetches if my deck is explicitly budget and usually then only if it needs to have more 5 color lands for some reason (e.g. I play evolving wilds in my budget Atraxa deck).
They are seriously terrible. I'll make all kinds of concessions before an evolving wilds goes in a deck.
For allied pairs and/or with access to G i'd avoid them. But, to be honest, i don't even run them in my enemy paired ones without G and never felt like i'm missing something.
Generally speaking here's a evaluation i came up with when BBD duals were printed:
1. ABUR duals (Taiga and others) - duh.
2. BBD lands (Luxury Suite) - no land types, other than that they're amazing.
3. Shock lands (Blood Crypt) - strong. Considerably stronger than the rest when combined with fetches.
4. Check lands (Rootbound Crag) - up to 3C more or less failproof outside of turn 1 (just play another land, duh).
5. Pain lands (Adarkar Wastes) - might hurt in the early game, irrelevant later on.
6. Cycle lands (Fetid Pools) - etbt, but they come with land types and utility. Questionable if one should play a full cycle 3C and up.
7. Scry lands (Temple of Malady) - etbt but unless you overload on etbt lands they're fine.
8. Battle lands (Cinder Glade) - requires rather conservative mana bases 3C and up, unproblematic in 2C.
9. Filter lands (Mystic Gate) - no big influence in 2C, can be problematic in the early game 3C and up.
10. Reveal lands (Port Town) - i don't like giving away info about my hand too much. They are propably fine in 2C.
11. Fast lands (Copperline Gorge) - no need for them in casual EDH and even in cEDH i wouldn't see them as auto includes.
12. Manlands (Raging Ravine) - clearly depends on the manland.
13. Bounce lands (Gruul Turf) - just don't, unless you can exploit them.
Of the ranked cycles i usually try to include cycle 2 through 8, as few as possible but as many as needed utility lands (especially C ones and taplands) and then fill up with basics.
I think the advantages of an ABUR dual and full fetches (including off color ones) are far outweighed by the aweful investment. For non-"c"EDH those are only the cherry on top if you have them or desperately feel like including them.
If I was to put together a 2 color deck right now my land base would be.
Command Tower
ABUR (if one of the ones I have)
8 Fetch Lands (7 Fetches at least 1 color, Prismatic Vista)
1 Shock Land
Allied Fetchable Lands if Allied Pair
On color Horizon Canopy Lands
Perhaps a Mystic Gate or similar
Maybe a Temple
A couple deck specific utility lands maybe
City of Brass, Mana Confluence
Basics
I'm a budget player. I only own two ABU Duals, I only own a handfall of Battlebond lands. I own juuuuust enough Shocks + Fetches to run the on-color ones in every deck but I couldn't fathom adding off-color ones. Having to use "bad duals" and even taplands like Sejiri Refuge is a fact of life for me. but even then I don't run Evolving Wilds or Terramorphic often. ETB tapped AND technically only making one color is too much a drawback. The "deck thinning" benefit is dramatically overstated. If I must run taplands, I prefer Temples and Refuges unless my deck has a heavy Landfall or sacrifice theme. So currently, I think that The Gitrog Monster is the only one of my decks that goes out of its way to run Wilds AND Expanses, since it has both landfall and a sacrifice theme.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sufferer of EDHD
Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
For allied pairs and/or with access to G i'd avoid them. But, to be honest, i don't even run them in my enemy paired ones without G and never felt like i'm missing something.
Generally speaking here's a evaluation i came up with when BBD duals were printed:
1. ABUR duals (Taiga and others) - duh.
2. BBD lands (Luxury Suite) - no land types, other than that they're amazing.
3. Shock lands (Blood Crypt) - strong. Considerably stronger than the rest when combined with fetches.
4. Check lands (Rootbound Crag) - up to 3C more or less failproof outside of turn 1 (just play another land, duh).
5. Pain lands (Adarkar Wastes) - might hurt in the early game, irrelevant later on.
6. Cycle lands (Fetid Pools) - etbt, but they come with land types and utility. Questionable if one should play a full cycle 3C and up.
7. Scry lands (Temple of Malady) - etbt but unless you overload on etbt lands they're fine.
8. Battle lands (Cinder Glade) - requires rather conservative mana bases 3C and up, unproblematic in 2C.
9. Filter lands (Mystic Gate) - no big influence in 2C, can be problematic in the early game 3C and up.
10. Reveal lands (Port Town) - i don't like giving away info about my hand too much. They are propably fine in 2C.
11. Fast lands (Copperline Gorge) - no need for them in casual EDH and even in cEDH i wouldn't see them as auto includes.
12. Manlands (Raging Ravine) - clearly depends on the manland.
13. Bounce lands (Gruul Turf) - just don't, unless you can exploit them.
Of the ranked cycles i usually try to include cycle 2 through 8, as few as possible but as many as needed utility lands (especially C ones and taplands) and then fill up with basics.
I think the advantages of an ABUR dual and full fetches (including off color ones) are far outweighed by the aweful investment. For non-"c"EDH those are only the cherry on top if you have them or desperately feel like including them.
Solid order...I will say that I think the bounce lands are excessively maligned, though. Think about it this way - if you had a land that etbt, tapped for 2 colors, and on etb let you search for a land and put it into hand...that would be pretty great. And that's *kind* of what bounce lands do. CA at the cost of etbt is generally excellent. Sure, sometimes someone will kill your land, but for the most part, even though they're much juicier targets than regular lands, it's not worth trading 1:1 for a land, even one that taps for 2. The biggest risk is something like a terrastodon that needs a third target and can't find anything better. Or if you're far enough ahead that people are looking for any way to hurt you, then it could reasonably get wastelanded or something.
The biggest secret downside is how bad they can be as a drop on T2 (unless you've mulliganed to 6 or played something T1). I see people playing them T2 and pass, only then realizing that they'll have to discard and switching them for another land drop.
Not to say that I always play them, but if you expect to be able to generate extra land drops (exploration, etc) then they can be really powerful. I've been running the RG one in my W&6 oathbreaker and it's been great for getting that 6-mana-turn-3 sequence.
In one or two color you don't need 38 lands. In 5 color I play 37. Two color I will also go 37 but 35 is fine and in mono color (unless you are running a lot of utility lands, 33 should be fine.
You forgot bounce land, and of you want optimized you are not looking at budget. You also have fast lands and life gain lands (depending on color) along with a few more option. Like the oddysey filters if you are in ally pairings.
If wotc ever prints a commander with rings' ability I'd almost certainly run it there. But even then, it's running a distant 9th (and 10th) fiddle to the better fetches. Outside of something in the CZ it seems too inconsistent to justify the downside imo.
I could see running them in Tasigur, but tbh the risk of drawing it in the midgame when that mana is going to matter is probably higher than the benefit of getting a discount on Tasigur once. But I could be persuaded. Anyway, that's a niche case, much like Titania and Gitrog and the like, that have specific reasons to want as many fetches as possible.
My main complaint is how many decks I see it in that are 2-color with no benefit whatsoever besides fixing. Which is...real bad. Not as bad as similar decks running rupture spire, mind...
I always ask myself if a land is going to be good if I have a specific powerful card in play and 2 extra mana available when I play it and don't need to benefit from it until the next turn. It's right up there with considering is this a land I want to have if my opponent might be playing Psychic Venom.
Oh, I forgot ash barrens somehow. This card is much better than Evolving Wilds stuff since you can either cycle it so its fail mode is evolving wilds (mostly) or you can play it as an untapped 1 if you need it. So it's a significantly better topdeck.
I still usually only play it if I can benefit from the cycling somehow (like loaming it). But it should usually be played before EW/TE.
I do in decks where basics are of some importance. If I’m facing some for of Non-basic land hate, or have it in my own deck. Cards that care about a specific land type. There’s really only a small window where they are debilitating to your plan, and that’s probably turns 3-5. Opening with it is fine, a tapped land on t1 is incredibly common. And even t2, not a completely debilitating play of it gets you the color you need. After that, you’re probably looking to cast some stuff on curve. Then, you reach a point where the thinning and shuffling actually is important, or at the very least relevant and you have enough mana that it doesn’t matter.
They are also easy choices for discard outlets. If you can recur them regularly, they can thin your deck pretty quickly.
Not as bad as they’re advertised as, but there are better options, obviously.
I like these because they are relatively draw-back free, often enter untapped and generate advantage or are fetchable if they don't. From there, I ask a few questions to determine which duals, if any, I include.
- Do I have an incentive for running lots of basics? If so, I may actually not run any other non-basics. E.G., I have a G/x deck with Nissa, Who Shakes the World, or a U/x deck with High Tide and Caged Sun, or a B/x deck that wants to use Dread Presence and doesn't want to rely on Urborg to do so.
- Do I plan to attack with my commander at all, and do I suspect they may die for doing so? If so, in goes Opal Palace.
- Is my deck pretty low-to-the-ground? Is my commander low CMC? IF so, I might run more lands that don't enter tapped, such as the painlands (Adarkar Wastes, City of Brass and Mana Confluence), the fastlands like Seachrome Coast, the reveal-lands like Port Town, or any tribal lands like Wanderwine Hub that I can reasonably support.
- Is my deck slow and grindy? Am I just passing my first few turns? If so I will often add temples (Temple of Enlightenment) and the bounce-land (Azorius Chancery, and will add man-lands like Celestial Colonnade and the other tribal land of Path of Ancestry if they provide any value at all to my deck's gameplan.
- Is my deck Greedy? Am I trying to be able to cast Cryptic Command and Planar Cleansing reliably on-curve? If so that pushes me to include filter lands like Mystic Gate and even rely on "bad" duals like Tranquil Cove and Sejiri Refuge just to improve my odds of assembling my colors. Ridiculously, I will not include Azorius Guildgate and friends even here - but add 1 life and I'm in!
I am a poor as I mentioned, so I only include off-color fetches and Evolving Wilds or Terramorphic Expanse if my deck has a heavy Dredge, Landfall, Delve, or similar theme (like Gitrog Frog).
I give it two main uses: One is as a budget land. The other is if you're running fetches specifically to run fetches. So, land recursion, landfall, Gitrog-style land matters decks (We need a name for this: Landed Aristocrats?), and Rings of Brighthearth. The problem is, as a budget land, you're probably better off using a standard tapland (which also isn't as vulnerable to Kismet), and there are a lot of strictly betters here. (The traditional Core Set duals like Rootbound Crag, for instance. You also have scrylands and refuges. Beyond that, snow lands, gates, you can see, a lot of taplands available. And that's just taplands: Painlands are actually my go-to budget lands.)
When you get to three colors, it becomes more useful, but it's also greatly outclassed by more. (Or more accurately, you now have anywhere from one to three lands which are identical except for the mana symbols.)
While we're talking about two-color budget, could someone please explain to me why even in two-color decks, WotC includes vivids? They're strictly worse than painlands in two-color decks. Just Saiyan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
While we're talking about two-color budget, could someone please explain to me why even in two-color decks, WotC includes vivids? They're strictly worse than painlands in two-color decks. Just Saiyan.
This has always annoyed me. Vivids are also just obnoxious design too, since you have to keep 2 counters on the damn things that you'll probably never use if you draw them mid/late and already have your fixing under control. Of all the budget lands to push, I wish they could push something a little less annoying.
While we're talking about two-color budget, could someone please explain to me why even in two-color decks, WotC includes vivids? They're strictly worse than painlands in two-color decks. Just Saiyan.
They are not strictly worse, as you could be too low on life to use colored mana from painlands.
But there are at least 5 in each color pair that just CIPT and provide both colors. Those are strictly better.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
While we're talking about two-color budget, could someone please explain to me why even in two-color decks, WotC includes vivids? They're strictly worse than painlands in two-color decks. Just Saiyan.
This has always annoyed me. Vivids are also just obnoxious design too, since you have to keep 2 counters on the damn things that you'll probably never use if you draw them mid/late and already have your fixing under control. Of all the budget lands to push, I wish they could push something a little less annoying.
Aside: I meant tap lands. Pain lands are my go-to budget recommendation, though.
Vivids have value in Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, since they're just taplands that add one mana of any color there, but that's the only deck I can think of where they're useful.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Vivids have value in Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, since they're just taplands that add one mana of any color there, but that's the only deck I can think of where they're useful.
Ha, they're also useful (well, vivid creek is useful) in chisei, heart of oceans. That's the only vivid I have in my collection for that reason. I wouldn't even play them in atraxa (not that I'd be caught dead playing atraxa. How gauche).
I feel like that's too much investment for Rings, specifically. You're a 3 mana buy-in with 2 per trigger, and realistically, it's like a ghetto Untamed Wilds. You'd have to do this three times before being a little better than that, mana-wise.
I'm still a fan of EW/TE in all but the most developed mana bases. There are very few decks I would not run them in.
There are so many great replies in here that I am hesitant to even add my own.
I am a believer in using proxies if you own the card and it is an expensive staple. For example, I own one of each fetch land, especially thanks to Khans and Modern Masters 2 or what ever set it was. I keep them in a small binder with other powerful staples I proxy in multiple decks and can show them if needed. Having fetch lands changes the game. More so since check lands were printed. It took me a while I get my hands on them, but in my three and four color decks, the play line which involves a fetch land into a shock land and following that up with check lands is smooth. I cannot justify the cost of a full set of fetch lands for each deck, nor do I feel I should punish myself and only use them in one deck, nor do I want to swap them in and out between decks either, which I could and would just waste time. Especially for a kitchen table format without prizes.
Lands are the perfect example of where MtG is "pay to win". Sure, you can use cheap commons and slow play, or use a ton of basics and suffer color screw, or you can buy expensive singles from the secondary card market and have a fast and smooth experience.
So much of what I wanted to write was some variation of all the above, be it our holistic detective, Pokken the cat and others.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Got me thinking.
If you are playing a 2-colour deck and do not want to run 7 fetchlands (maybe because you do not like playing off-colour fetches or maybe because of budget), what is better? Something like Scoured Barrens or Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse?
Taplands will fix multiple colours. I expect most 2-colour decks are playing a scryland, a cycle land (if you are in an allied colour pair), and maybe a ravnica bounce land.
After that, there are gates, the ones that gain you life, and just generic come into play tapped lands.
Where would you rank TE and EW in there?
TE and EW will only fix for one colour, but they give you a shuffle effect, a land in the graveyard (for delve or for other interactions), and you can copy the activated ability. Their value changes depending on the deck. Most Ux decks should run them in my opinion as they can fuel Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time.
I actually find the 2-colour mana base to be the toughest to build in commander. How many basics can you play? Are Panoramas better than lands that enter tapped?
In a 2 colour deck, assuming 38 lands, you have
1. 1-7 fetch
2. 1 ABUR dual
3. 1 Shockland
4. 1 Checkland
5. 1 Command Tower
6. 1 Painland
7. 1 Filterland
8. 1 Prismatic Vista
So you have 9-17 locked in cards, depending on how you feel about fetches. Let's say 17.
Then you get into things that are not in every colour pairing. I believe this list gives you between 1 and 5 lands.
9. Tainted lands / one of the 3 remaining Future Sight lands / BFZ Duals / SOI Reveal lands / Canopy lands / Battlebond lands / Odyssey Filter lands
That makes up to 22 lands that enter untapped most of the time.
Then there are the best lands that enter tapped
10. Manlands / Scry lands / Ravnica Bounce Lands / Cycle Lands / / Fast lands (listed as tapped lands because most of the time they enter tapped in EDH).
11. Myriad Landscape and Path of Ancestry imo are pretty good
This would be another 7-11 lands. Our list is now between 18 and 29 lands.
Finally, we get to EW, TE, gates, lands that gain life, etc. If you are GW, you already have 29 lands here, so you can plug in some basics and be done. But if you are Izzet, you have 18 lands and need another 20. I think 20 basics is too many, so I would definitely want some of the weaker lands. Do you put City of Brass into your 2 colour deck? Or do you play TE and EW to have a shuffle effect/graveyard interaction/etc?
What if you do not want 7 fetches in each two colour deck and you do not have ABUR duals? Then you have a lot more open slots. Again, what do you do?
I do not know where to put Mirage Fetches on this list. I guess they are better than EW and TE in allied-colours, but in enemy colours they are probably worse. If you do not have an ABUR dual in your Izzet deck, there is only one 2-colour land the mirage fetches can get. EW is definitely better in that case.
Notes
*Maybe I missed some lands
**Not including utility lands that do not fix for mana. Depending on your colour requirements and the deck's interactions, you may not want any and you may want 10 of them. Hard to include in this list.
In any case, two colour decks are challenging because you are often forced to play subpar lands to fix your mana or a large number of basics. There may be certain synergistic considerations that influence which lands you play, but for the most part, for Boros, Izzet and Simic decks (which have the fewest fixing lands), would you play Evolving Wilds or Swiftwater Cliffs?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
There are lot of lands you left out, though. Running down the list:
ODY filter
non-cycle lands from future sight (river of tears et al)
reveal-lands from SOI
Temples
cycling duals
man duals
slow lands
fast lands
battle lands
And then all the rainbow lands...
cavern of souls
city of brass
mana confluence
forbidden orchard
reflecting pool
gemstone caverns
path of ancestry
You did mention some, I'm guessing you left them off the list because they aren't available to enemy pairs? There are some available to all colors though (for example, fast lands and temples).
I could potentially see a deck that was 2-color enemy pair, and REALLY wanted to recur them (I don't think having a couple delve cards justifies it) it could be reasonable. So it's possible. My point was that, unless you're getting extra value - either you really want the shuffle, you really want the recursion, etc - then it's wrong to use them unless you're on a budget and have strict color requirements. Otherwise you should run another fixing land or a basic.
Also, they get run in titania, protector of argoth, for obvious reasons, and that's not even 2 color!
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I mentioned all of these lands....
These lands are not always good... depends on the deck. Most of the time I expect two colour decks to play some of them.
So, if you were play Niv-Mizzet, would you play Evolving wilds or Swiftwater Cliffs? You are not playing 20 basics. You need some subpar lands.. right? EW interacts with more, that's for sure. Delve, copy effects, graveyard recursion, landfall.
I don't know. The main thing I am seeing is that there are way more good lands for allied-pairs than enemy pairs in EDH.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Plus, you may well not want to slam down niv on 6 with no protection. So then the odds get even longer of getting color screwed.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
In general I think most 2 color manabases can support approximately 3 lands that enter the battlefield tapped. So that's my guiding principle. I will do almost anything to avoid playing more than just the temple and then some utility lands like Mistveil Plains or halimar depths.
But in general when I build a budget 2 color manabase that is not using offcolor fetches, I will do the following - example from a UW deck:
That gives me 14 lands that tap for both colors. Then I will go to 7 of each basic, which gives you a nice round 21 sources of each color. 21 is a nice round number that gives you about an 80% of seeing 2 of each color in the first 11 cards after mulligans, maybe a hair more.
From there you can season to taste; add some basics of one color if it's over-represented (say you play lots of 3 pip spells of that color), add some utility lands of different colors.
If your deck is slow you can consider Thawing Glaciers.
Tons of other things go into it though. Like if you're in Green, you can think of your green ramp spells that get lands as color fixing, and in white you have stuff like land tax / weathered wayfarer, and so on.
Sometimes you want to play some stuff that finds basics like Armillary Sphere. And artifacts can fix, etc.
Re: Rainbow lands
It's probably just me but I will almost never play rainbow lands in 2 color manabases. The pain ones especially. The damage really can add up when you don't have a colorless mode to not take damage. Pain lands yes, rainbow pain no.
Reflecting pool is just OK. I tend to not like it a lot in 2 color because it can really screw you up. but it is reasonable I guess. Really depend son the deck and the mana needs.
------------------------------------------
To get to the TL;DR
I will only play any of the slow fetches if my deck is explicitly budget and usually then only if it needs to have more 5 color lands for some reason (e.g. I play evolving wilds in my budget Atraxa deck).
They are seriously terrible. I'll make all kinds of concessions before an evolving wilds goes in a deck.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
For allied pairs and/or with access to G i'd avoid them. But, to be honest, i don't even run them in my enemy paired ones without G and never felt like i'm missing something.
Generally speaking here's a evaluation i came up with when BBD duals were printed:Of the ranked cycles i usually try to include cycle 2 through 8, as few as possible but as many as needed utility lands (especially C ones and taplands) and then fill up with basics.
I think the advantages of an ABUR dual and full fetches (including off color ones) are far outweighed by the aweful investment. For non-"c"EDH those are only the cherry on top if you have them or desperately feel like including them.
Command Tower
ABUR (if one of the ones I have)
8 Fetch Lands (7 Fetches at least 1 color, Prismatic Vista)
1 Shock Land
Allied Fetchable Lands if Allied Pair
On color Horizon Canopy Lands
Perhaps a Mystic Gate or similar
Maybe a Temple
A couple deck specific utility lands maybe
City of Brass, Mana Confluence
Basics
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
The biggest secret downside is how bad they can be as a drop on T2 (unless you've mulliganed to 6 or played something T1). I see people playing them T2 and pass, only then realizing that they'll have to discard and switching them for another land drop.
Not to say that I always play them, but if you expect to be able to generate extra land drops (exploration, etc) then they can be really powerful. I've been running the RG one in my W&6 oathbreaker and it's been great for getting that 6-mana-turn-3 sequence.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You forgot bounce land, and of you want optimized you are not looking at budget. You also have fast lands and life gain lands (depending on color) along with a few more option. Like the oddysey filters if you are in ally pairings.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I could see running them in Tasigur, but tbh the risk of drawing it in the midgame when that mana is going to matter is probably higher than the benefit of getting a discount on Tasigur once. But I could be persuaded. Anyway, that's a niche case, much like Titania and Gitrog and the like, that have specific reasons to want as many fetches as possible.
My main complaint is how many decks I see it in that are 2-color with no benefit whatsoever besides fixing. Which is...real bad. Not as bad as similar decks running rupture spire, mind...
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I always ask myself if a land is going to be good if I have a specific powerful card in play and 2 extra mana available when I play it and don't need to benefit from it until the next turn. It's right up there with considering is this a land I want to have if my opponent might be playing Psychic Venom.
I still usually only play it if I can benefit from the cycling somehow (like loaming it). But it should usually be played before EW/TE.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I do in decks where basics are of some importance. If I’m facing some for of Non-basic land hate, or have it in my own deck. Cards that care about a specific land type. There’s really only a small window where they are debilitating to your plan, and that’s probably turns 3-5. Opening with it is fine, a tapped land on t1 is incredibly common. And even t2, not a completely debilitating play of it gets you the color you need. After that, you’re probably looking to cast some stuff on curve. Then, you reach a point where the thinning and shuffling actually is important, or at the very least relevant and you have enough mana that it doesn’t matter.
They are also easy choices for discard outlets. If you can recur them regularly, they can thin your deck pretty quickly.
Not as bad as they’re advertised as, but there are better options, obviously.
TIER 1: Auto-include if owned, in this priority order
The ABU Dual (Tundra)
The Shockland (Hallowed Fountain)
The On-color Fetchland (Flooded Strand)
The Battlebond Land (Sea of Clouds)
Command Tower (Command Tower)
The Cycling Land (Irrigated Farmland)
The Zendikar Tango Land (Prairie Stream)
The Canopy Land (Does not currently exist in Azorius)
The Check-land (Glacial Fortress)
I like these because they are relatively draw-back free, often enter untapped and generate advantage or are fetchable if they don't. From there, I ask a few questions to determine which duals, if any, I include.
- Do I have an incentive for running lots of basics? If so, I may actually not run any other non-basics. E.G., I have a G/x deck with Nissa, Who Shakes the World, or a U/x deck with High Tide and Caged Sun, or a B/x deck that wants to use Dread Presence and doesn't want to rely on Urborg to do so.
- Do I plan to attack with my commander at all, and do I suspect they may die for doing so? If so, in goes Opal Palace.
- Is my deck pretty low-to-the-ground? Is my commander low CMC? IF so, I might run more lands that don't enter tapped, such as the painlands (Adarkar Wastes, City of Brass and Mana Confluence), the fastlands like Seachrome Coast, the reveal-lands like Port Town, or any tribal lands like Wanderwine Hub that I can reasonably support.
- Is my deck slow and grindy? Am I just passing my first few turns? If so I will often add temples (Temple of Enlightenment) and the bounce-land (Azorius Chancery, and will add man-lands like Celestial Colonnade and the other tribal land of Path of Ancestry if they provide any value at all to my deck's gameplan.
- Is my deck Greedy? Am I trying to be able to cast Cryptic Command and Planar Cleansing reliably on-curve? If so that pushes me to include filter lands like Mystic Gate and even rely on "bad" duals like Tranquil Cove and Sejiri Refuge just to improve my odds of assembling my colors. Ridiculously, I will not include Azorius Guildgate and friends even here - but add 1 life and I'm in!
I am a poor as I mentioned, so I only include off-color fetches and Evolving Wilds or Terramorphic Expanse if my deck has a heavy Dredge, Landfall, Delve, or similar theme (like Gitrog Frog).
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
When you get to three colors, it becomes more useful, but it's also greatly outclassed by more. (Or more accurately, you now have anywhere from one to three lands which are identical except for the mana symbols.)
While we're talking about two-color budget, could someone please explain to me why even in two-color decks, WotC includes vivids? They're strictly worse than painlands in two-color decks. Just Saiyan.
On phasing:
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
But there are at least 5 in each color pair that just CIPT and provide both colors. Those are strictly better.
Vivids can get bent outside budget 4/5 color.
Aside: I meant tap lands. Pain lands are my go-to budget recommendation, though.
Vivids have value in Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, since they're just taplands that add one mana of any color there, but that's the only deck I can think of where they're useful.
On phasing:
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm still a fan of EW/TE in all but the most developed mana bases. There are very few decks I would not run them in.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
I am a believer in using proxies if you own the card and it is an expensive staple. For example, I own one of each fetch land, especially thanks to Khans and Modern Masters 2 or what ever set it was. I keep them in a small binder with other powerful staples I proxy in multiple decks and can show them if needed. Having fetch lands changes the game. More so since check lands were printed. It took me a while I get my hands on them, but in my three and four color decks, the play line which involves a fetch land into a shock land and following that up with check lands is smooth. I cannot justify the cost of a full set of fetch lands for each deck, nor do I feel I should punish myself and only use them in one deck, nor do I want to swap them in and out between decks either, which I could and would just waste time. Especially for a kitchen table format without prizes.
Lands are the perfect example of where MtG is "pay to win". Sure, you can use cheap commons and slow play, or use a ton of basics and suffer color screw, or you can buy expensive singles from the secondary card market and have a fast and smooth experience.
So much of what I wanted to write was some variation of all the above, be it our holistic detective, Pokken the cat and others.