In recent months I've had several conversations, both real and digital, about Reliquary Tower's place in the format. When I got back into Magic in 2011 (circa New Phyrexia and M12), I was immediately taken with EDH and commenced building multiple decks. Upon discovering Reliquary Tower, it went into every single one. I encountered a lot of players that felt similarly, who also windmill slammed it into every possible deck. Then came Innistrad block, which gave us a utilitylandfor everycolor pair. That gravy train is still rolling today with stuff like Karn's Bastion and Blast Zone.
As years went by, the Tower got cut from a lot of my three-colored decks. Merieke Ri Berit, for instance, couldn't ignore Detection Tower or Arcane Lighthouse. Other decks had similar situations. The ole tower was supplanted by new utility lands that better fit the decks. It still finds a place in most of my mono- or two-colored decks, because it't still a highly desirable effect stapled onto a mana-generating land. In fact, the only time it doesn't make it into a 1-2 colored deck is if it goes against the game plan, like reanimator.
Anyway, I just wanted to see what others thought of Reliquary Tower, if it was ever an auto include in years past, or if your opinion on it has changed.
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I play it in Feather, the Redeemed. it comes in super handy when you want to keep recurring the same spells over and over again while also drawing new cards. I guess the usefulness of the tower depends on the deck its being used for
I play it in Feather, the Redeemed. it comes in super handy when you want to keep recurring the same spells over and over again while also drawing new cards. I guess the usefulness of the tower depends on the deck its being used for
That is a very good example of a deck that would excel with it, not having made it.
I honestly haven't run it in forever. If I discard cards to handsize, I generally don't miss the cards I'm discarding too much. I don't discard cards to handsize that often either. I'd run it in decks that care about handsize, but not anywhere else.
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UG Arixmethes Combo UGR Wanderer UGB Tasigur Control URB Jeleva Storm RW Gisela Control
Reliquary Tower is overrated. Holding a full grip of the best cards is plenty of things to do for close to all decks.
I've had to look it up, but apparently 5/16 decks of my decks still run a copy - most of them for no apparent reason.
Talrand, Sky Summoner - Can be useful here to hold a variety of active and proactive cards. The deck wouldn't be noticeably weaker with an Island instead of it. Gonti, Lord of Luxury - Only comes in handy with Necropotence/Necrologia. I should propably run a Swamp over it. Zada, Hedron Grinder - Maybe the best deck for it i have. Due to the fragility to board wipes and the absurd number of cards the deck draws i'm always happy to have more than enough in hand to rebuild eventually. Brago, King Eternal - Can draw a ton of cards as well but i don't think that's reason enough to keep it around. Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Only being able to generate C can hurt a lot in this deck. Yet, the deck can draw "too many" cards before i have access to the mana to offload them. When in question i'd should run City of Brass variants over it propably.
Bottom line, it takes several pretty specific reasons for me to even think of including it. On top of that every color added makes it more likely for me to cut/not include it.
I don't play it in any decks even monocolored. It's a crutch and it slows your play down when you get a grip of 15 cards too, no matter how good you are.
Discarding to handsize is a free discard outlet in a lot of my decks and it's usually a net positive to be able to discard. You don't get to choose if you have reliquary tower out to discard or not, so it's out for any deck that might see value from discarding.
I don't see any way to consider running it over, say, any of these;
Yea, i gotta echo the general sentiments here; i've not used it in AGES. It's one of those deck-building traps i think that many players fall into. I know i did once upon a time.
Even when it is 'relevant', the best 7 cards from a hand of 40 cards is as good as the full 40 cards in hand. In other words, 99% of the time, you don't really need any more than the best 7 cards to just straight-out win the game. And dealing with 40 cards in hand leads to slow-playing.
I don't fault people for wanting to run it though. Every time i see it, i explicitly point it out at the end of the game, whether or not it was even relevant/whether or not a basic land would have been better. It's almost never relevant.
Most decks really shouldn't need 40 cards in hand.
However, I still run it in Xenagod because you want to be able to keep making land drops as you will want to back up your aggression. Also, you tend to overdraw when you draw big. It isn't the worst outcome if you don't find it though.
The other reason is pure intimidation factor, although it probably doesn't need the help there. The deck is also simple enough that having a lot of cards doesn't slow down play much.
And my Zegana 'play creatures to be able to play more creatures' deck that wants to pick and choose from a huge toolbox in hand. Usually not to the point where it would matter hugely, but the deck has a tendency to draw a fair bit and on a two-color ramp deck it has pretty much zero opportunity cost.
But I think those are the only ones where I have it. Most of my decks don't even draw enough to keep a consistent full grip, let alone have any use for having more than seven in hand any given time.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
I play it sometimes, but much more rarely than I used to. Mostly in control decks.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I just run it in Phelddagrif since I use a lot of group draw to force everyone to draw out manually and I need all those answers in my hand to keep myself from dying before they all deck out. I'm not that greedy with draw in my other decks so I never see room for it anywhere else.
It's a low opportunity cost for potentially busted necroptence/greater good plays IMO. If I play big draw, I play it. And this is edh, folks. You should be playing big draw.
I play it if the deck is planning to draw a lot of cards and wants access to a lot of options, typically counters and removal. For other decks it's literally I can play every card next turn but if I discard 5+ cards I will lose a lot of potential. Other decks play a bunch of draw but typically only use it to refill so in those I am starting to not play it.
Holding excess cards without playing them is inefficient resource adjudication. This is a "resource" that is not actually doing anything to help you win. No, just drawing thirty doesn't win on it's own unless you found your combo...in which case you don't need the Tower because you just won. Unless you have an arbitrarily large amount of mana, you're not casting them in one turn either. And if you did have this mana, why didn't you just win (blue sun zenith)?
Its win-more. Simple, common greed. Casual, n00b bait at it's finest.
I am an aggro deck I want to draw a ton of cards but I don't want to play all those cards because then I am just overextending into wraths. I am using cards like edric and coastal piracy to draw those cards so I have a short window for card advantage before that advantage is cut off. So I need to hold onto my cards.
I also have it in my Glissa, the traitor deck and I probably don't need it but my deck is almost all artifacts so I just have a stack of utility lands. I have been stuck holding 26 cards in hand after getting milled into mass removal triggering the card return.
I think I did recently remove it from my UW control deck because that deck had a lot more stringent mana costs trying to cast things like Cryptic command and double white cards.
I only play it in decks that need to hold big hands and have a way of drawing a lot. Currently, that's Pir & Toothy, Zegana and Selvala. Beyond that, I can go without as my other decks tend to just keep around 7 cards anyway.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I do have one deck in which Reliquary Tower is part of the plan: Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma. The deck just wants to ramp and pummel opponents with creatures. Accordingly, it's easy to overextend into wraths or run out of gas. The tower helps me deploy a steady stream of threats after drawing off of something like Rishkar's Expertise. I also can't count the times its mitigated the loss from an opposing Cyclonic Rift.
I run it in decks that can draw a bunch of cards, but not consistently, mostly green decks that can burst draw 10+ but struggle getting turn over turn draw. My green decks also care less about it being colorless because of ramp spells.
It's easier to talk about decks that you shouldn't run it in though. If you want to discard cards or otherwise put stuff in the yard, don't run it. If you are vulnerable to color screw, such as 3+ color without green or any deck with lots of color weight in it's cards, don't run it. If you run plenty of repeatable draw or can otherwise reliably maintain card flow, don't run it because your better off just discarding down when you need to. If you will not reliably go significantly over 7 in hand (at least past 11) at least once per game, don't run it (it needs to do something after all).
That eliminates most decks, but still leaves enough that it still has a place in the format.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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My decision to play Reliquary Tower generally depends on whether or not I think discarding down to seven is going to be something that matters.
Here's the thing: if I value having no maximum hand size, I'll need to play one or more cards that can do that. At this moment, there are only 15 cards with that ability. That's so few cards! And to make matters worse, several are extremely prohibitive. Enter the Infinite and Finale of Revelation both cost 12. Tishana, Nezahal, Price of Knowledge, and Praetor's Counsel all cost 7 or more. Tamiyo won't even bestow her ability unless I can reach her ultimate. That doesn't leave a lot left. And the lousy thing about the particular cards I listed above is, if I'm drawing enough cards to place value in having no maximum hand size, I'm going to want something that's easy to play lest I draw too many cards all at once and have to discard down because I don't have enough extra mana to cast a no max hand size card despite drawing into one.
This helps explain why Reliquary Tower is so good. It costs no mana to play, and it doubles as a mana generating card. That's frankly amazing. And Wastes, while not a great card in its own right, is still quite a handsome upside when compared to something like Spellbook. Yes, Reliquary Tower being a colorless land does cause some opportunity loss; if I want to play Reliquary Tower, I can't just jam every other utility land I might want to play into the same deck. Even so, if inexpensive no maximum hand size cards are important to me, none of the alternatives offer anything nearly as valuable as Reliquary Tower. There's just so little competition.
Now, having said all that, I think the conversation surrounding Reliquary Tower isn't usually about whether Reliquary Tower is actually good at what it does or not. What I think people really want to talk about when they discuss Reliquary Tower is how much they ought to value having no max hand size in the first place. That's a different conversation.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I've gotten better at tossing the Tower out of decks that don't really need it or are actively hindered by its existence (IE: Graveyard decks). The amount of times you've got more than like, nine, cards in hand is pretty goddamn rare, and it's generally easy enough to toss the couple.
That being said, it's still one of the great joys in Magic to be packing, like, twenty cards in your hands, and one of my biggest weakness is choosing what to discard, so some decks still have them. Generally heavy green decks that like to draw cards in big ol' chunks of eight to ten at a time.
It's not a no brainer, start every deck with it kind of card. But if you want/need that effect, it's outstanding. I have it in a few decks, one in particular needs it. Most of my decks are tower free.
Reliquary Tower is an excellent card. Plenty of decks draw too many cards, and even more are rewarded for building a critical mass of resources safely in hand rather than play out into the format with 1000 board wipes a game and very few Thoughtseizes. I think anyone suggesting it isn't an excellent card is overcompensating to counterbalance the people who thoughtlessly throw it into any deck, and I don't think that's a particularly productive viewpoint.
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In recent months I've had several conversations, both real and digital, about Reliquary Tower's place in the format. When I got back into Magic in 2011 (circa New Phyrexia and M12), I was immediately taken with EDH and commenced building multiple decks. Upon discovering Reliquary Tower, it went into every single one. I encountered a lot of players that felt similarly, who also windmill slammed it into every possible deck. Then came Innistrad block, which gave us a utility land for every color pair. That gravy train is still rolling today with stuff like Karn's Bastion and Blast Zone.
As years went by, the Tower got cut from a lot of my three-colored decks. Merieke Ri Berit, for instance, couldn't ignore Detection Tower or Arcane Lighthouse. Other decks had similar situations. The ole tower was supplanted by new utility lands that better fit the decks. It still finds a place in most of my mono- or two-colored decks, because it't still a highly desirable effect stapled onto a mana-generating land. In fact, the only time it doesn't make it into a 1-2 colored deck is if it goes against the game plan, like reanimator.
Anyway, I just wanted to see what others thought of Reliquary Tower, if it was ever an auto include in years past, or if your opinion on it has changed.
My 720 Peasant Cube
It is always easy to pick the best seven cards in hand and a lot of the drawing I do generally is instant speed anyway.
That is a very good example of a deck that would excel with it, not having made it.
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
I've had to look it up, but apparently 5/16 decks of my decks still run a copy - most of them for no apparent reason.
Talrand, Sky Summoner - Can be useful here to hold a variety of active and proactive cards. The deck wouldn't be noticeably weaker with an Island instead of it.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury - Only comes in handy with Necropotence/Necrologia. I should propably run a Swamp over it.
Zada, Hedron Grinder - Maybe the best deck for it i have. Due to the fragility to board wipes and the absurd number of cards the deck draws i'm always happy to have more than enough in hand to rebuild eventually.
Brago, King Eternal - Can draw a ton of cards as well but i don't think that's reason enough to keep it around.
Edric, Spymaster of Trest - Only being able to generate C can hurt a lot in this deck. Yet, the deck can draw "too many" cards before i have access to the mana to offload them. When in question i'd should run City of Brass variants over it propably.
Bottom line, it takes several pretty specific reasons for me to even think of including it. On top of that every color added makes it more likely for me to cut/not include it.
Discarding to handsize is a free discard outlet in a lot of my decks and it's usually a net positive to be able to discard. You don't get to choose if you have reliquary tower out to discard or not, so it's out for any deck that might see value from discarding.
I don't see any way to consider running it over, say, any of these;
These cards actually do things. Reliquary tower is a nothing that hurts your mana. It's a horrible card.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Even when it is 'relevant', the best 7 cards from a hand of 40 cards is as good as the full 40 cards in hand. In other words, 99% of the time, you don't really need any more than the best 7 cards to just straight-out win the game. And dealing with 40 cards in hand leads to slow-playing.
I don't fault people for wanting to run it though. Every time i see it, i explicitly point it out at the end of the game, whether or not it was even relevant/whether or not a basic land would have been better. It's almost never relevant.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
However, I still run it in Xenagod because you want to be able to keep making land drops as you will want to back up your aggression. Also, you tend to overdraw when you draw big. It isn't the worst outcome if you don't find it though.
The other reason is pure intimidation factor, although it probably doesn't need the help there. The deck is also simple enough that having a lot of cards doesn't slow down play much.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
And my Zegana 'play creatures to be able to play more creatures' deck that wants to pick and choose from a huge toolbox in hand. Usually not to the point where it would matter hugely, but the deck has a tendency to draw a fair bit and on a two-color ramp deck it has pretty much zero opportunity cost.
Zedruu Voltron where some of the stuff are Empyrial Armor, Righteous Authority and the like.
But I think those are the only ones where I have it. Most of my decks don't even draw enough to keep a consistent full grip, let alone have any use for having more than seven in hand any given time.
On phasing:
Its win-more. Simple, common greed. Casual, n00b bait at it's finest.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I also have it in my Glissa, the traitor deck and I probably don't need it but my deck is almost all artifacts so I just have a stack of utility lands. I have been stuck holding 26 cards in hand after getting milled into mass removal triggering the card return.
I think I did recently remove it from my UW control deck because that deck had a lot more stringent mana costs trying to cast things like Cryptic command and double white cards.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
My 720 Peasant Cube
It's easier to talk about decks that you shouldn't run it in though. If you want to discard cards or otherwise put stuff in the yard, don't run it. If you are vulnerable to color screw, such as 3+ color without green or any deck with lots of color weight in it's cards, don't run it. If you run plenty of repeatable draw or can otherwise reliably maintain card flow, don't run it because your better off just discarding down when you need to. If you will not reliably go significantly over 7 in hand (at least past 11) at least once per game, don't run it (it needs to do something after all).
That eliminates most decks, but still leaves enough that it still has a place in the format.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Here's the thing: if I value having no maximum hand size, I'll need to play one or more cards that can do that. At this moment, there are only 15 cards with that ability. That's so few cards! And to make matters worse, several are extremely prohibitive. Enter the Infinite and Finale of Revelation both cost 12. Tishana, Nezahal, Price of Knowledge, and Praetor's Counsel all cost 7 or more. Tamiyo won't even bestow her ability unless I can reach her ultimate. That doesn't leave a lot left. And the lousy thing about the particular cards I listed above is, if I'm drawing enough cards to place value in having no maximum hand size, I'm going to want something that's easy to play lest I draw too many cards all at once and have to discard down because I don't have enough extra mana to cast a no max hand size card despite drawing into one.
This helps explain why Reliquary Tower is so good. It costs no mana to play, and it doubles as a mana generating card. That's frankly amazing. And Wastes, while not a great card in its own right, is still quite a handsome upside when compared to something like Spellbook. Yes, Reliquary Tower being a colorless land does cause some opportunity loss; if I want to play Reliquary Tower, I can't just jam every other utility land I might want to play into the same deck. Even so, if inexpensive no maximum hand size cards are important to me, none of the alternatives offer anything nearly as valuable as Reliquary Tower. There's just so little competition.
Now, having said all that, I think the conversation surrounding Reliquary Tower isn't usually about whether Reliquary Tower is actually good at what it does or not. What I think people really want to talk about when they discuss Reliquary Tower is how much they ought to value having no max hand size in the first place. That's a different conversation.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
That being said, it's still one of the great joys in Magic to be packing, like, twenty cards in your hands, and one of my biggest weakness is choosing what to discard, so some decks still have them. Generally heavy green decks that like to draw cards in big ol' chunks of eight to ten at a time.