I have a question about the thing that bothers me a little when it comes to singleton (all singletons, not only commander). Because it applies to most of the singletons formats let's put the function of commander card aside.
I thought that the point of singleton is to have a little chaotic games that rarely looks the same because of well.. being singleton and 100 cards instead of 60. But when it comes to the decks that i see people put up I see a trends that.
- alot of cards are just mana accelerators or fixers that bring the count of the cards that supposed to be different to one another down.
- very ofthn there is just the same card in different cards - 1x lightning bolt, 1x incinerate, 1x lightning strike (it's just an example... i could use brainstorm, ponder, preordain, opt so don't take particular exaple as a BEST example of what is happening).
That trends removes what i thought was appealing about those formats.
What I understand is multiplayer aspect. However it doesnt meen that it couldnt be achieved in standard mtg rules (because of the trends i mentioned).
I don't play singleton that often so maybe I'm not getting it. So if you have other points that bring value to the singleton formats or just straight up you don't agree with the things i mention feel free to say that - I would love to understand your stand on that.
Sure, there are many similar effects, but in most cases they are different. There aren't all that many functional reprints. A game with lightning bolt could play out differently because it costs 1 less than incinerate. Or maybe incenerate could kill a creature that would be able to regenerate against a lightning bolt. Small variance, but variance nonetheless.
Also, while decks can have a preponderance of similar stuff in them - there are loads of 2-mana ramp spells/artifacts, for example - things could be MUCH more consistent under a 4-of system. Can you imagine 4x demonic tutor 4x vampiric tutor 4x imperial seal in a combo deck that's also running 4x of their combo pieces? Sounds...gross. Not to mention mana crypt and sol ring, bleurgh.
There's also not much reason NOT to. 4x always felt arbitrary to me. Other games have 3x (yugioh) or 2x (hearthstone, except legendaries which are 1x) 1x feels like a more natural limitation. Ofc that's just my preference.
It also keeps things cheaper, which I like. Don't need to shell out for 4 of each fetchland if you can only run 1 of each. Not a big deal, but it does keep the format feeling more open.
having 1 fetch land in deck sounds still like most of the people that play cosntructed but doesnt have a budget for multiple copies but it's still a point as it's limit here not the budget constraint.
I also get your point about incinerate and bolt being different to some extent but that's not exactly what I had in mind. I was saying that even if people like the limit of 1x they are still going to choose the cards as 'let's find all cards that do what bolt does' than 'wow incinerate is different'. That is my impression which in your case is not true but I feel for majority it is. Or am I wrong?
People do all sorts of things to limit themselves and then still try their best in a given situation.
Obviously, you can't run a 3 legged race (even with the worlds fastest man as your partner) as fast as you'd run a regular one. But when you do run that race, you still try to run as fast as you can.
Singleton is obviously a limitation. Some people embrace the chaos. Some people do not. Some people take joy in building the most consistent, streamlined deck possible despite the limitation. Some people like decks that play differently every game. Some people search to find a balance.
People do all sorts of things to limit themselves and then still try their best in a given situation.
Obviously, you can't run a 3 legged race (even with the worlds fastest man as your partner) as fast as you'd run a regular one. But when you do run that race, you still try to run as fast as you can.
Singleton is obviously a limitation. Some people embrace the chaos. Some people do not. Some people take joy in building the most consistent, streamlined deck possible despite the limitation. Some people like decks that play differently every game. Some people search to find a balance.
Pretty straight forward and good post. Thanks for contribution.
I don't want to be rude but if you answer just the question from thread title but just ignore what is the rest of the thread than just don't bother to answer at all. If it wouldn't be fun people would not play it. Your answer isn't bringing anything to the table.
I'll admit I like consistency in my mana and such. If I want Rampant Growth, I want to see one turn 2, so I'm happy if I get to see one turn two in as many games as possible because better mana means that I get to excecute the deck better. Same with card selection (and draw). If I want it, I want the best of it, because it allows me to execute my deck better.
What I'm actually executing however varies from game to game and I like that variance. This is especially true in more casual decks, for example in my Wanderer deck I have like 30-ish cards that beat face, steals spells or generates even more advantage that all counts as some form of wincon. This means I'll have to try to win in different ways depending on which ones I get. I like that type of variance. Even in control decks, you have to play a bit differently and adapt to what cards you draw when determining how you want to control the game. I'm not saying you don't do this in quadrupleton (is this even a word) but it's not as noticeable.
Also, singleton storm lines can be so much fun.
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UG Arixmethes Combo UGR Wanderer UGB Tasigur Control URB Jeleva Storm RW Gisela Control
It keeps combo players from walking away with the game.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'll admit I like consistency in my mana and such. If I want Rampant Growth, I want to see one turn 2, so I'm happy if I get to see one turn two in as many games as possible because better mana means that I get to excecute the deck better. Same with card selection (and draw). If I want it, I want the best of it, because it allows me to execute my deck better.
What I'm actually executing however varies from game to game and I like that variance. This is especially true in more casual decks, for example in my Wanderer deck I have like 30-ish cards that beat face, steals spells or generates even more advantage that all counts as some form of wincon. This means I'll have to try to win in different ways depending on which ones I get. I like that type of variance. Even in control decks, you have to play a bit differently and adapt to what cards you draw when determining how you want to control the game. I'm not saying you don't do this in quadrupleton (is this even a word) but it's not as noticeable.
I personally enjoy how a singleton format makes you think of alternative cards during deck design.
Yeah, that means that you're often looking for cards that do very similar things to make the deck more consistent, but I find that part of the fun. You get to evaluate the relative strengths of different cards trying to do similar things, and the potential value of redundancy vs. dilution of specific card effects.
I strongly dislike tutors because they take away from the feel of singleton. But one of the challenges/features of singleton is also finding a way to execute a game plan with a singleton limitation, and that means finding pieces that are either functionally the same or that can fill a similar role.
I can only play one copy of Sneak Attack in My Marchesa, the Black Rose deck. So I play cards that allow me to manifest. I can then flip the manifests for free by using Marchesa's abilities. I also run some reanimation spells and have some self-mill. So even though I rarely draw Sneak Attack, I am still able to consistently find ways to cheat creatures into play.
I have a question about the thing that bothers me a little when it comes to singleton (all singletons, not only commander). Because it applies to most of the singletons formats let's put the function of commander card aside.
I thought that the point of singleton is to have a little chaotic games that rarely looks the same because of well.. being singleton and 100 cards instead of 60. But when it comes to the decks that i see people put up I see a trends that.
- alot of cards are just mana accelerators or fixers that bring the count of the cards that supposed to be different to one another down.
- very ofthn there is just the same card in different cards - 1x lightning bolt, 1x incinerate, 1x lightning strike (it's just an example... i could use brainstorm, ponder, preordain, opt so don't take particular exaple as a BEST example of what is happening).
That trends removes what i thought was appealing about those formats.
What I understand is multiplayer aspect. However it doesnt meen that it couldnt be achieved in standard mtg rules (because of the trends i mentioned).
I don't play singleton that often so maybe I'm not getting it. So if you have other points that bring value to the singleton formats or just straight up you don't agree with the things i mention feel free to say that - I would love to understand your stand on that.
It's supposed to be more random, yes. But just like regular magic, if you want your deck to work better you add redundancy. In regular magic, that's adding extra copies. In commander, that's adding more cards that function in the same fashion.
In theory, cEDH players would probably love to play 4 copies in commander, but at that point you're pretty much playing a different format. Singleton rules is an essential flavor of Commander, probably just under being able to cast your Commander whenever and color identity.
I love it because people can't just olay 4 of all the best cards. You have to put some thought into deck building. Weigh the pros and cons of similar spells. And because of that, differnet peoole will use different cards, so no two decks are exactly the same.
It keeps combo players from walking away with the game.
ha... hahaha... hahahahahha... hahahahahahahahahahaha oh **** i fell out of my chair hahahah ****.
this could not be more untrue.
personally, i enjoy the variance. i don't always know how someone is going to respond. how they're going to combo off. my responses and combos will always be different too. even streamlined there's still a lot of variance. it makes every game feel much more unique and interesting by way of not seeing a lightning bolt in response to every dork, or a brainstorm every turn.
It keeps combo players from walking away with the game.
It still happens though, not as often as it could in non-sibgleton.
Of course if it came down to another competatjve environment. I would finally pack and call MTG over for me. No reason to pour money j to a game that is not fun to play. I hate my hyper competatjve jhoira deck that I built.
The answer to this question is something which has been hashed over countless times in various ways. I just went back to a post i made a year and a half ago that got my most up votes here at MTG Salvation and feel that it is just as relevant in context.
Commander appeals to players on so many levels.
In my 13+ years of experience, I have seen patterns and stories retell themselves from all over. Many old school players started with no idea how to play, just a starter deck and a rule book they didn't understand. Countless newbies make the same mistake. I cannot tell you how often I have seen someone with a 73 card three color deck with 16 or 17 lands. They began with some theme deck, bought boosters, added cards they liked and "made room for them" by cutting lands, then continued to pack more cool stuff in until it became the dumpster fire in front of them.
I cannot tell you how many times someone has seen my Magic: the Gathering pin on my bag at work or on the street and told me how they play magic too and that they beat all their friends with their samurai deck or red burn deck... and we are not talking about an optimized sly deck. We are talking something that has Volcanic Hammer and Lava Axe or whatever some 5-15 year old burn spell is from when they started playing.
Not everyone who plays this game is a fanatic who lurks forums, reads article, watches YouTube videos and strives to improve their play. Many of them just like to play a card game with their friends.
Commander appeals to Timmy who loves to cast big creatures and finally has a format where games realistically get to turns where they can actually cast them.
Commander appeals to Vorthos, who loves to tell a story with their deck.
Commander appeal to Spike who likes to break it in half and pretend they are the biggest fish in their little bowl.
Commander appeals to Johnny, who is forced to only have one of each cards and tries to assemble their crazy combo.
Commander is where the guy who wants to use skull clamp can without it being over powered.
Commander is where someone like my wife can get a pre-con deck and build it on a budget over time and watch it grow into something all her own and be proud of it every step of the way.
To expand a little, Magic has always been a game where both cards and decks are designed to fight the inherent randomness of the game. That is why, when allowed 4x copies of a card, most cards are played with those 4 copies, and when there are fewer than 4, there is a reason/rational for it.
If I could play multiple copies of Thrumming Stone in my Atheros (Shadowborn Apostle) deck, I would. There is no other card in magic like it. Not even something similar. As a result, the deck is forced to play things like Secret Salvage and Remembrance as alternative ways of pulling copies from the library.
Even in 60 card 4x copies magic, decks regularly play redundant copies of the most important cards. Look at modern 8 Whack or other decks like 8 Post and 8 Rack. They get those names because a redundant version ofa powerful card was printed and they upped the count of said effect to its limit.
I was told a story about how the first best deck in the history of magic was back before the 4 card limit and decks were only 40 cards. The deck was about 18 Black Lotus, 18 or so Wheel of Fortune and about 4 or so Feldon's Cane. You just cast your free mana and wheel over and over again, eventually using the cane to shuffle your graveyard back into your library and kept going until your opponent lost. You won every time you went first or they passed he turn. That, I am told, is what inspired the 4x rule. Well, the next best decks just ran 4x the power 9 and mostly did the same thing along with Wheel of Fortune and Braingeyser as a finishers and still inning on turn one, or if it was passed to them. This essentially means that they needed a restricted list, else the game would stagnate.
Singleton is good for Commander and god for Magic. I cannot tell you how many LGS locations benefited from Commander and having a sudden demand for bulk cards. I know that my friends and I scoured countless boxes of cards which were once rarely touched for months or even years. Boxes were pulled out of storage, quarter and dollar rare piles were rifled through just looking for hidden gems and cards which finally found a home.
Redundant cards with a twist or higher casting cost suddenly became useful. Some cards which were unplayable jank have become staples and powerhouses. The higher life totals and longer game length resulted in turns where you can actually expect to cast something with a cmc over 4 and have it matter. Heck, 8 drops and even 12 drop cards were being cast as blow out spells. X spells were able to be cast are crazy high values you once only dreamed of, or were only able to through an infinite mana combo, now were just hard cast at 10+.
This is the format where people like to talk about how many non-infnite tokes or creatures they have had, cards they have drawn, or how much non-infinite life they have gained or damage they have done. Some of that is inspired by the deep card pool that we are FORCED to choose from rather than just playing 60x4 casual magic.
I could go on, as you can imagine. Thanks for reading this far.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
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I have a question about the thing that bothers me a little when it comes to singleton (all singletons, not only commander). Because it applies to most of the singletons formats let's put the function of commander card aside.
I thought that the point of singleton is to have a little chaotic games that rarely looks the same because of well.. being singleton and 100 cards instead of 60. But when it comes to the decks that i see people put up I see a trends that.
- alot of cards are just mana accelerators or fixers that bring the count of the cards that supposed to be different to one another down.
- very ofthn there is just the same card in different cards - 1x lightning bolt, 1x incinerate, 1x lightning strike (it's just an example... i could use brainstorm, ponder, preordain, opt so don't take particular exaple as a BEST example of what is happening).
That trends removes what i thought was appealing about those formats.
What I understand is multiplayer aspect. However it doesnt meen that it couldnt be achieved in standard mtg rules (because of the trends i mentioned).
I don't play singleton that often so maybe I'm not getting it. So if you have other points that bring value to the singleton formats or just straight up you don't agree with the things i mention feel free to say that - I would love to understand your stand on that.
Also, while decks can have a preponderance of similar stuff in them - there are loads of 2-mana ramp spells/artifacts, for example - things could be MUCH more consistent under a 4-of system. Can you imagine 4x demonic tutor 4x vampiric tutor 4x imperial seal in a combo deck that's also running 4x of their combo pieces? Sounds...gross. Not to mention mana crypt and sol ring, bleurgh.
There's also not much reason NOT to. 4x always felt arbitrary to me. Other games have 3x (yugioh) or 2x (hearthstone, except legendaries which are 1x) 1x feels like a more natural limitation. Ofc that's just my preference.
It also keeps things cheaper, which I like. Don't need to shell out for 4 of each fetchland if you can only run 1 of each. Not a big deal, but it does keep the format feeling more open.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I also get your point about incinerate and bolt being different to some extent but that's not exactly what I had in mind. I was saying that even if people like the limit of 1x they are still going to choose the cards as 'let's find all cards that do what bolt does' than 'wow incinerate is different'. That is my impression which in your case is not true but I feel for majority it is. Or am I wrong?
Obviously, you can't run a 3 legged race (even with the worlds fastest man as your partner) as fast as you'd run a regular one. But when you do run that race, you still try to run as fast as you can.
Singleton is obviously a limitation. Some people embrace the chaos. Some people do not. Some people take joy in building the most consistent, streamlined deck possible despite the limitation. Some people like decks that play differently every game. Some people search to find a balance.
Pretty straight forward and good post. Thanks for contribution.
I don't want to be rude but if you answer just the question from thread title but just ignore what is the rest of the thread than just don't bother to answer at all. If it wouldn't be fun people would not play it. Your answer isn't bringing anything to the table.
What I'm actually executing however varies from game to game and I like that variance. This is especially true in more casual decks, for example in my Wanderer deck I have like 30-ish cards that beat face, steals spells or generates even more advantage that all counts as some form of wincon. This means I'll have to try to win in different ways depending on which ones I get. I like that type of variance. Even in control decks, you have to play a bit differently and adapt to what cards you draw when determining how you want to control the game. I'm not saying you don't do this in quadrupleton (is this even a word) but it's not as noticeable.
Also, singleton storm lines can be so much fun.
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
On phasing:
Makes sense. Thanks
Not that it matters but i hate combo decks
Yeah, that means that you're often looking for cards that do very similar things to make the deck more consistent, but I find that part of the fun. You get to evaluate the relative strengths of different cards trying to do similar things, and the potential value of redundancy vs. dilution of specific card effects.
I can only play one copy of Sneak Attack in My Marchesa, the Black Rose deck. So I play cards that allow me to manifest. I can then flip the manifests for free by using Marchesa's abilities. I also run some reanimation spells and have some self-mill. So even though I rarely draw Sneak Attack, I am still able to consistently find ways to cheat creatures into play.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
It's supposed to be more random, yes. But just like regular magic, if you want your deck to work better you add redundancy. In regular magic, that's adding extra copies. In commander, that's adding more cards that function in the same fashion.
In theory, cEDH players would probably love to play 4 copies in commander, but at that point you're pretty much playing a different format. Singleton rules is an essential flavor of Commander, probably just under being able to cast your Commander whenever and color identity.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
ha... hahaha... hahahahahha... hahahahahahahahahahaha oh **** i fell out of my chair hahahah ****.
this could not be more untrue.
personally, i enjoy the variance. i don't always know how someone is going to respond. how they're going to combo off. my responses and combos will always be different too. even streamlined there's still a lot of variance. it makes every game feel much more unique and interesting by way of not seeing a lightning bolt in response to every dork, or a brainstorm every turn.
It still happens though, not as often as it could in non-sibgleton.
Of course if it came down to another competatjve environment. I would finally pack and call MTG over for me. No reason to pour money j to a game that is not fun to play. I hate my hyper competatjve jhoira deck that I built.
To expand a little, Magic has always been a game where both cards and decks are designed to fight the inherent randomness of the game. That is why, when allowed 4x copies of a card, most cards are played with those 4 copies, and when there are fewer than 4, there is a reason/rational for it.
If I could play multiple copies of Thrumming Stone in my Atheros (Shadowborn Apostle) deck, I would. There is no other card in magic like it. Not even something similar. As a result, the deck is forced to play things like Secret Salvage and Remembrance as alternative ways of pulling copies from the library.
Even in 60 card 4x copies magic, decks regularly play redundant copies of the most important cards. Look at modern 8 Whack or other decks like 8 Post and 8 Rack. They get those names because a redundant version ofa powerful card was printed and they upped the count of said effect to its limit.
I was told a story about how the first best deck in the history of magic was back before the 4 card limit and decks were only 40 cards. The deck was about 18 Black Lotus, 18 or so Wheel of Fortune and about 4 or so Feldon's Cane. You just cast your free mana and wheel over and over again, eventually using the cane to shuffle your graveyard back into your library and kept going until your opponent lost. You won every time you went first or they passed he turn. That, I am told, is what inspired the 4x rule. Well, the next best decks just ran 4x the power 9 and mostly did the same thing along with Wheel of Fortune and Braingeyser as a finishers and still inning on turn one, or if it was passed to them. This essentially means that they needed a restricted list, else the game would stagnate.
Singleton is good for Commander and god for Magic. I cannot tell you how many LGS locations benefited from Commander and having a sudden demand for bulk cards. I know that my friends and I scoured countless boxes of cards which were once rarely touched for months or even years. Boxes were pulled out of storage, quarter and dollar rare piles were rifled through just looking for hidden gems and cards which finally found a home.
Redundant cards with a twist or higher casting cost suddenly became useful. Some cards which were unplayable jank have become staples and powerhouses. The higher life totals and longer game length resulted in turns where you can actually expect to cast something with a cmc over 4 and have it matter. Heck, 8 drops and even 12 drop cards were being cast as blow out spells. X spells were able to be cast are crazy high values you once only dreamed of, or were only able to through an infinite mana combo, now were just hard cast at 10+.
This is the format where people like to talk about how many non-infnite tokes or creatures they have had, cards they have drawn, or how much non-infinite life they have gained or damage they have done. Some of that is inspired by the deep card pool that we are FORCED to choose from rather than just playing 60x4 casual magic.
I could go on, as you can imagine. Thanks for reading this far.