To use an example from recent events, a white supremacist spewing hate and a dude throwing a milkshake are not equally at fault.
Will we be allowed to debunk this sort of slander on the new site without being unpersoned?
Magic players have difficulty understandings multiplayer magic politics half the time. The debunking you dream of would likely be a waste of keystrokes, and I generally prefer the current politics avoidance here.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I can't speak to politics, but insofar as the question at hand is concerned with regards to where a good community is to migrate to after this one's been shut down, I've found a home on nogoblinsallowed.com
It's a site whose community splintered off in a mass exodus when the official forums exploded back in 2013. We don't get as much new traffic as we used to, because when you search "Magic forums" it's not the first result in the same way the Wizards ones were, but all the most passionate and brilliant members of the old guard are still there having a blast. If you're looking for something warm and cozy, with a strong membership for other Wizards products besides just Magic as well, namely D&D, I highly suggest you checking it out.
Will we be allowed to debunk this sort of slander on the new site without being unpersoned?
Well I don't expect political discussion to take much place on a Magic forum if it isn't related to Magic, so my cautious answer is that if it is something that would derail a thread then I doubt it would be allowed. I honestly can't go past hypotheticals at this point. Speaking only for the area which I will be overseeing, I'm fine with politics being discussed IN CONTEXT so long as it remains civil and doesn't promote a negative agenda, intentionally using that term loosely right now. It's really going to have to be a case by case basis. But for example, if you wanted to build a deck that portrays your dislike of Trump (or Obama) then that's probably going to be ok. If on the other hand you wanted to build a Nazi-themed deck around Harold McNeill then I'll probably have issues with you.
Anyway, if you want to continue this further my PM is open, but since I neither know what our final rules will look like nor can predict a future hypothetical, I think it is best to leave this subject alone at the moment.
Honestly, I just come here for magic, I don't want or see the point of irrelevant political discussions mixed in with EDH. If you have a political forum you should keep it less moderated of course, but I prefer to keep politics outside of EDH since it just sours the mood.
The exception being when it's relevant of course, or with the option of tagging certain threads [Politics] if they're related to politics, and allow for more open discussion there.
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UG Arixmethes Combo UGR Wanderer UGB Tasigur Control URB Jeleva Storm RW Gisela Control
Will we be allowed to debunk this sort of slander on the new site without being unpersoned?
Well I don't expect political discussion to take much place on a Magic forum if it isn't related to Magic, so my cautious answer is that if it is something that would derail a thread then I doubt it would be allowed. I honestly can't go past hypotheticals at this point. Speaking only for the area which I will be overseeing, I'm fine with politics being discussed IN CONTEXT so long as it remains civil and doesn't promote a negative agenda, intentionally using that term loosely right now. It's really going to have to be a case by case basis. But for example, if you wanted to build a deck that portrays your dislike of Trump (or Obama) then that's probably going to be ok. If on the other hand you wanted to build a Nazi-themed deck around Harold McNeill then I'll probably have issues with you.
Sounds fair. Maybe have an off-topic section (with appropriate warnings, e.g., political discussions will lead to flame wars).
Keep us posted.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I apologize for opening this can of worms. Overall, I'm happy with the moderation here, despite leaving an statement to the contrary in my sig for far too long.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
I would have built my shrine to Zedruu even if it was just for my own enjoyment, but I'm ecstatic to have people like you helping me absolutely ruin the statistics on EDHREC's page for Mirror of Fate.
I would have built my shrine to Zedruu even if it was just for my own enjoyment, but I'm ecstatic to have people like you helping me absolutely ruin the statistics on EDHREC's page for Mirror of Fate.
First the MCU, then Big Bang Theory, then Game of Thrones, and now MTG:Salvation... I at least knew the first three were coming to an end well beforehand, but I am rather surprised to see this happen. I guess the curse of Curse finally caught up to the site.
But still, it is good to know that people like Cryogen and Feyd Ruin are in charge of putting together a new site. Although I am nowhere near as close to people here as I was at MTG:News, its still my de facto MTG home and its good to know that it will live on in some fashion (as opposed to rather undignified ending News had...).
I apologize for opening this can of worms. Overall, I'm happy with the moderation here, despite leaving an statement to the contrary in my sig for far too long.
You can disagree with certain rules/tenants of moderation while still respecting those who enfore said guidelines. We're always listening to criticism (whether or not we act on it), providing its given in a constructive manner.
As somebody who got some flame/troll warning type stuff, I also felt the mods were a bit trigger happy. But reflecting on it now, one of the elements that made Sally what it is, is that you don't get escalated arguments and therefore the site was much more a safehaven. It's an odd mix of it's better to go over the top with moderation, in order to stop a general culture of using unnecessary remarks when talking about subjects.
I mean trolling is the number one reason I hate other sites, so I prefer to get a smack on the hand every so often, for a greater good.
I honestly think it's a necessary "evil" to do this. If you lose a few users because they feel like they have been unfairly judged with warnings, this will definitely offset the number of users who would stay away from the site due to unwanted comments.
I have been part of other forums where the moderation was strict. I didn't mind. I do think that here the mods went overboard, and if they are looking to take on board some suggestions for the future, I think that the "spam" infractions were probably the worst/most unwarranted, followed by the flame/troll ones, simply because I often found myself puzzled at seeing what was causing the infractions. It definitely seemed overdone.
Though I am not a big poster overall, at this or any site where I am a member, I did post much less often here than I would have otherwise, simply for fear that my posts would "earn" infractions. I don't suppose fear is the desired atmosphere, so I figured I would put in my two cents here, since now, even if this post were to earn infractions, the site is closing anyway...
Mostly unrelated to moderation, but the biggest annoyance I've had with the forums personally is the primer system. The requirements for non-content related stuff like formatting is honestly ridiculous. It took me nearly as long to format my Phelddagrif primer than it did to write the thing, and it's like 70 pages long or something insane like that. Having pretty formatting is nice and all, and primers should strive to be readable, but especially for commanders that don't already have primers, I think discouraging people from creating a primer because they'll have to spend hours inserting pictures and tinkering with fonts is a big net negative for the forum. There are many many commanders with no primers that could certainly use one, if only it was easier for people to do.
Oh, and then also those horrible mobile ads. I swear sometimes it redirects me five times before it'll let me get where I wanted to go. I assume that particular bugaboo won't follow the forums to wherever they go next, but GRRRRRR I hope whoever created them dies in agony. Or at least, like, never finds a fulfilling career.
Mostly unrelated to moderation, but the biggest annoyance I've had with the forums personally is the primer system. The requirements for non-content related stuff like formatting is honestly ridiculous. It took me nearly as long to format my Phelddagrif primer than it did to write the thing, and it's like 70 pages long or something insane like that. Having pretty formatting is nice and all, and primers should strive to be readable, but especially for commanders that don't already have primers, I think discouraging people from creating a primer because they'll have to spend hours inserting pictures and tinkering with fonts is a big net negative for the forum. There are many many commanders with no primers that could certainly use one, if only it was easier for people to do.
Oh, and then also those horrible mobile ads. I swear sometimes it redirects me five times before it'll let me get where I wanted to go. I assume that particular bugaboo won't follow the forums to wherever they go next, but GRRRRRR I hope whoever created them dies in agony. Or at least, like, never finds a fulfilling career.
I second the ad redirects part.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Mostly unrelated to moderation, but the biggest annoyance I've had with the forums personally is the primer system. The requirements for non-content related stuff like formatting is honestly ridiculous. It took me nearly as long to format my Phelddagrif primer than it did to write the thing, and it's like 70 pages long or something insane like that. Having pretty formatting is nice and all, and primers should strive to be readable, but especially for commanders that don't already have primers, I think discouraging people from creating a primer because they'll have to spend hours inserting pictures and tinkering with fonts is a big net negative for the forum. There are many many commanders with no primers that could certainly use one, if only it was easier for people to do.
Oh, and then also those horrible mobile ads. I swear sometimes it redirects me five times before it'll let me get where I wanted to go. I assume that particular bugaboo won't follow the forums to wherever they go next, but GRRRRRR I hope whoever created them dies in agony. Or at least, like, never finds a fulfilling career.
I second this whole post, but mainly the primer part. I tried to do one once, but the formatting was cumbersome and frustrating so I just gave up.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
the primers are fine, but yes do primers for commanders who do not have one. i like reading them as they can give me interesting ideas for them. And they really tell me if i want to play them or not.
Mostly unrelated to moderation, but the biggest annoyance I've had with the forums personally is the primer system. The requirements for non-content related stuff like formatting is honestly ridiculous. It took me nearly as long to format my Phelddagrif primer than it did to write the thing, and it's like 70 pages long or something insane like that. Having pretty formatting is nice and all, and primers should strive to be readable, but especially for commanders that don't already have primers, I think discouraging people from creating a primer because they'll have to spend hours inserting pictures and tinkering with fonts is a big net negative for the forum. There are many many commanders with no primers that could certainly use one, if only it was easier for people to do.
Yes, OH GOD YES. I can't even count how many rewrites I was sent back for when submitting Kaalia because of "appearance". And like who cares? Doesn't matter if it's pretty or you're a whizz with BBCode, it's all about the content produced and the need of the community to receive that information. In fact I've had at least two users COMPLAIN about readability in my primer because of the images, but if I remove them I will lose primer "status". That makes no sense, those card images don't do anything for the strategy and function of the archetype...
Oh, and then also those horrible mobile ads. I swear sometimes it redirects me five times before it'll let me get where I wanted to go. I assume that particular bugaboo won't follow the forums to wherever they go next, but GRRRRRR I hope whoever created them dies in agony. Or at least, like, never finds a fulfilling career.
Use Firefox (or even better, Fennec off the F-Droid repo as it strips out Mozilla proprietary bits) and install the uBlock Origin plugin. Couldn't imagine dealing with mobile ads in this era. Idgaf about any site's revenue when it compromises the security and health of my devices. Why? Because that site isn't gonna buy me a new device when their malware laced ads fry my system, why should I care about tossing them a few sheckels?
the primers are fine, but yes do primers for commanders who do not have one. i like reading them as they can give me interesting ideas for them. And they really tell me if i want to play them or not.
The problem is the work load that goes into a comprehensive primer is huge and if you don't have a fan base for the perceived demand, then all the work is wasted. As an example;
I have no problem maintaining the Kaaliaa primer because she is a popular commander and it is a labour of love for me. She's a cult favourite and people love to talk about her. She's a casual allstar. Now, I feel I easily have all the information to make a similar primer for Alesha, but I can't. Why? Alesha does not have the same following, typically because she is not doing the a-typical swingy plays the average player expects from a game of commander. She is great at generating value-over-time and playing a disrupting midrange strat, utilizing spectres, spheres, fulminators, and tokens, but as my research has shown, she isn't what the average player is looking for. And so I haven't started that topic (and when I have, the interest was little to none).
My first primer attempt was for Zirilan, and I gave up pretty quickly when it became apparent I'd have to make a lot of changes that were unrelated to content. And no, it's not beautiful, but it's perfectly readable and full of useful information. It has sections and subsections to make it easier to follow and navigate. And I even tinkered with fonts a little and picked a color I liked.
Having gone through the entire process later with Phelddagrif, which I was more committed to (and also seriously not giving a ***** about work at the time ), I realized I'd made the right decision the first time. I had no desire to repeat the process for Zirilan.
And so instead there is no Zirilan primer. And anyone who wants to learn about it will just have to search around on their own. I don't see how that's helping anyone.
I think it's one thing to weed out the bottom 10-20% or so, maybe even more than that, if their formatting is really atrocious. Readability does matter, especially if it's a commander with a lot of people writing primers for them. And if someone isn't willing to do a few quick tweaks for formatting, they probably don't care enough to have written a good primer. So some QC is fair. But whoever set the bar set it waaaaaay too high. Since the forum is private I have no idea how many got rejected and gave up, but I have to guess that it's a lot.
Of course, you need some QC. Can't just take any old schmuck off the street and green light them. Speaking as a former Primer Committee member, so many of the submissions I saw were no more than a thread with a decklist. But if you set the bar too high, as we see they currently have done, well you see how many people will spend their free time writing hours of content for free. Like the bottom two percent. That's what speaks the most volumes to me.
When I first submitted primers, they were pretty messy, so honestly getting feedback was the best thing that could have happened for my content.
I was the same, I felt like I had already spent a billion hours on making sure the content was all there, so what does it matter if stuff is a bit out of order, etc, etc. But ultimately I realized that you have a team of people just trying to help you make it the best you can, so from a personal point of view I just appreciate the extra eyes getting you to that goal. At the end of the day it's your primer, so you should enjoy spending the time making it presentable.
The end goal is to give your readers the best experience, so the committee goal is try and help you to give that.
And if you don't want to spend the additional time on formatting, that's cool, the threads are still up for people to find, and they usually will (if interested in that commander). But having a standard for "official" primers just meant that readers could expect a certain quality, a portion of that being presentation.
Will we be allowed to debunk this sort of slander on the new site without being unpersoned?
Magic players have difficulty understandings multiplayer magic politics half the time. The debunking you dream of would likely be a waste of keystrokes, and I generally prefer the current politics avoidance here.
It's a site whose community splintered off in a mass exodus when the official forums exploded back in 2013. We don't get as much new traffic as we used to, because when you search "Magic forums" it's not the first result in the same way the Wizards ones were, but all the most passionate and brilliant members of the old guard are still there having a blast. If you're looking for something warm and cozy, with a strong membership for other Wizards products besides just Magic as well, namely D&D, I highly suggest you checking it out.
slander lol
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Well I don't expect political discussion to take much place on a Magic forum if it isn't related to Magic, so my cautious answer is that if it is something that would derail a thread then I doubt it would be allowed. I honestly can't go past hypotheticals at this point. Speaking only for the area which I will be overseeing, I'm fine with politics being discussed IN CONTEXT so long as it remains civil and doesn't promote a negative agenda, intentionally using that term loosely right now. It's really going to have to be a case by case basis. But for example, if you wanted to build a deck that portrays your dislike of Trump (or Obama) then that's probably going to be ok. If on the other hand you wanted to build a Nazi-themed deck around Harold McNeill then I'll probably have issues with you.
Anyway, if you want to continue this further my PM is open, but since I neither know what our final rules will look like nor can predict a future hypothetical, I think it is best to leave this subject alone at the moment.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The exception being when it's relevant of course, or with the option of tagging certain threads [Politics] if they're related to politics, and allow for more open discussion there.
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
Sounds fair. Maybe have an off-topic section (with appropriate warnings, e.g., political discussions will lead to flame wars).
Keep us posted.
On phasing:
My 720 Peasant Cube
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
You make it sound like you're guilty. The guilty ones are the fools not playing ridiculous exile recursion.
But still, it is good to know that people like Cryogen and Feyd Ruin are in charge of putting together a new site. Although I am nowhere near as close to people here as I was at MTG:News, its still my de facto MTG home and its good to know that it will live on in some fashion (as opposed to rather undignified ending News had...).
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
You can disagree with certain rules/tenants of moderation while still respecting those who enfore said guidelines. We're always listening to criticism (whether or not we act on it), providing its given in a constructive manner.
I mean trolling is the number one reason I hate other sites, so I prefer to get a smack on the hand every so often, for a greater good.
I honestly think it's a necessary "evil" to do this. If you lose a few users because they feel like they have been unfairly judged with warnings, this will definitely offset the number of users who would stay away from the site due to unwanted comments.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Though I am not a big poster overall, at this or any site where I am a member, I did post much less often here than I would have otherwise, simply for fear that my posts would "earn" infractions. I don't suppose fear is the desired atmosphere, so I figured I would put in my two cents here, since now, even if this post were to earn infractions, the site is closing anyway...
Oh, and then also those horrible mobile ads. I swear sometimes it redirects me five times before it'll let me get where I wanted to go. I assume that particular bugaboo won't follow the forums to wherever they go next, but GRRRRRR I hope whoever created them dies in agony. Or at least, like, never finds a fulfilling career.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I second the ad redirects part.
I second this whole post, but mainly the primer part. I tried to do one once, but the formatting was cumbersome and frustrating so I just gave up.
My 720 Peasant Cube
Yes, OH GOD YES. I can't even count how many rewrites I was sent back for when submitting Kaalia because of "appearance". And like who cares? Doesn't matter if it's pretty or you're a whizz with BBCode, it's all about the content produced and the need of the community to receive that information. In fact I've had at least two users COMPLAIN about readability in my primer because of the images, but if I remove them I will lose primer "status". That makes no sense, those card images don't do anything for the strategy and function of the archetype...
Use Firefox (or even better, Fennec off the F-Droid repo as it strips out Mozilla proprietary bits) and install the uBlock Origin plugin. Couldn't imagine dealing with mobile ads in this era. Idgaf about any site's revenue when it compromises the security and health of my devices. Why? Because that site isn't gonna buy me a new device when their malware laced ads fry my system, why should I care about tossing them a few sheckels?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The problem is the work load that goes into a comprehensive primer is huge and if you don't have a fan base for the perceived demand, then all the work is wasted. As an example;
I have no problem maintaining the Kaaliaa primer because she is a popular commander and it is a labour of love for me. She's a cult favourite and people love to talk about her. She's a casual allstar. Now, I feel I easily have all the information to make a similar primer for Alesha, but I can't. Why? Alesha does not have the same following, typically because she is not doing the a-typical swingy plays the average player expects from a game of commander. She is great at generating value-over-time and playing a disrupting midrange strat, utilizing spectres, spheres, fulminators, and tokens, but as my research has shown, she isn't what the average player is looking for. And so I haven't started that topic (and when I have, the interest was little to none).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Having gone through the entire process later with Phelddagrif, which I was more committed to (and also seriously not giving a ***** about work at the time ), I realized I'd made the right decision the first time. I had no desire to repeat the process for Zirilan.
And so instead there is no Zirilan primer. And anyone who wants to learn about it will just have to search around on their own. I don't see how that's helping anyone.
I think it's one thing to weed out the bottom 10-20% or so, maybe even more than that, if their formatting is really atrocious. Readability does matter, especially if it's a commander with a lot of people writing primers for them. And if someone isn't willing to do a few quick tweaks for formatting, they probably don't care enough to have written a good primer. So some QC is fair. But whoever set the bar set it waaaaaay too high. Since the forum is private I have no idea how many got rejected and gave up, but I have to guess that it's a lot.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I was the same, I felt like I had already spent a billion hours on making sure the content was all there, so what does it matter if stuff is a bit out of order, etc, etc. But ultimately I realized that you have a team of people just trying to help you make it the best you can, so from a personal point of view I just appreciate the extra eyes getting you to that goal. At the end of the day it's your primer, so you should enjoy spending the time making it presentable.
The end goal is to give your readers the best experience, so the committee goal is try and help you to give that.
And if you don't want to spend the additional time on formatting, that's cool, the threads are still up for people to find, and they usually will (if interested in that commander). But having a standard for "official" primers just meant that readers could expect a certain quality, a portion of that being presentation.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith