What was the thought process for the RC and CAG on planeswalkers?
I know from the Command Zone episode where Josh joins the CAG he states he is in favor of no changes. He is taking a don’t rock the boat, don’t fix what ain’t broke mentality. He also extends that to the idea of planeswalkers as commanders in that episode. I disagree with his arguments againist them, but for now it seems to be the way it will go for awhile.
What was the thought process for the RC and CAG on planeswalkers?
It basically boiled down to the fact that there was no real upside beyond flavor and letting people play their favourite walkers as commanders. This was offset with a lot of downside, including the fact that we would have to ban at least six or more cards to implement this change without breaking the format. Additionally, planeswalker commanders slow down games a lot and allowing for blanket PW commanders would dilute a lot of the identity of the commander format.
EDH has plenty of its own rules that make it unique among formats. Why not one more? .
Simple rules:
1. You own the tutored card.
2. The card is outside of the game.
3. The card is within the color identity of your deck.
4. The card is legal in Commander (or allowed by your play group).
5. The card is (or will be) sleeved to match your deck’s sleeves, if any.
Not's not ONE more that's FIVE more
And why does it have to match my commander's CI? It says any card......
EDIT II: Maybe this hsould be moved into it's own thread?
This is exactly why we left the rule as it was. Everyone has their own idea of what's a "reasonable interpretation" of the cards for Commander. People would be unhappy with any set of restrictions or allowances we gave, so it's best to let playgroups hash out these issues within themselves.
By that logic, the rule shouldn’t have been made and should be immediately removed because the committee has made their “reasonable interpretation” into a rule, and right out of the gate, there’s people that are unhappy with it.
While I am not one of them, I do like for as many cards as possible to be playable, and meaningfully so. Aren't the rules, at least in part (a great part), intended to direct players to the greatest potential for enjoyment? Of course. So then why not try something fun rather than something that literally amounts to nothing?
EDH has plenty of its own rules that make it unique among formats. Why not one more? .
Simple rules:
1. You own the tutored card.
2. The card is outside of the game.
3. The card is within the color identity of your deck.
4. The card is legal in Commander (or allowed by your play group).
5. The card is (or will be) sleeved to match your deck’s sleeves, if any.
Not's not ONE more that's FIVE more
And why does it have to match my commander's CI? It says any card......
EDIT II: Maybe this hsould be moved into it's own thread?
This is exactly why we left the rule as it was. Everyone has their own idea of what's a "reasonable interpretation" of the cards for Commander. People would be unhappy with any set of restrictions or allowances we gave, so it's best to let playgroups hash out these issues within themselves.
By that logic, the rule shouldn’t have been made and should be immediately removed because the committee has made their “reasonable interpretation” into a rule, and right out of the gate, there’s people that are unhappy with it.
While I am not one of them, I do like for as many cards as possible to be playable, and meaningfully so. Aren't the rules, at least in part (a great part), intended to direct players to the greatest potential for enjoyment? Of course. So then why not try something fun rather than something that literally amounts to nothing?
Because Chaos for the sake of Chaos, is not a good reason to do anything (contrary to what the Scrambleverse/Warp World/Possibility Storm players think).
They just said that if all Planeswalkers were available as commanders, that they would have to ban 6 or more cards to allow for it. That is the opposite of what the RC/CAG is trying to do.
Even in the case of wish cards, you're still looking at 2 options:
1) Someone decides to grind the game to a halt to pull out their binder to cherry pick a card for a niche situation (if a sideboard rule isn't implemented)
Sideboards further complicate the rules and defies the roots of the format as a 100 card singleton format - we don't need sideboards.
"We" don't want to wait while people sift through their deck for that 1-3 cards they want to cut pre/post game("We" being a safe assumption for the collective playerbase).
"We" also don't want hear complaints about cards that people forgot to switch back out after a game is underway and how those sideboard cards were supposed to be something else.
2) People start including "wish/side boards" to effectively make their deck 10-15 cards larger, allowing for specific hate cards for metas or decks that a particular one struggles with.
Both scenarios speak to an issue with the competitive tit-for-tat, silver bullet answers that are found in constructed formats. Cards aren't worthy of inclusion mainboard because they're too narrow of an answer and won't be effective against all deck types. I'd recommend building a more versatile deck with a variety of answers to account for a wider range of threats. Even cEDH doesn't allow wishboards...
For the sake of continuity and a singular message, the official statement/stance was made. The proverbial line in the sand...
If you and your play group don't want to abide by it, that's fine. You can literally wipe away the line with your foot and draw a new one in either direction.
What you can't do, however, is expect people of another group or LGS to accept your stance on wishboards/sideboards. It's never been a thing before on account of how the rules have been to date, it's just now a clear stance on the matter versus an ambiguous one where "the card text wins out".
I’m in the camp that feels wishes should work in Commander, but not for the reasons I’ve seen stated thus far.
Commander is a casual format. It is not played by official tournament rules (regular or higher rules enforcement level). In casual formats, wishes are not restricted to sideboards proper but work with a player’s entire collection. Rule 13 referencing “no sideboards” seems confusing and tangential to the relevant fact that, in a casual game, you don’t need a sideboard for wishes!
Many things in Commander can be unfun to play against; how is searching your binder for a card any more disruptive than a turn 10 Warp World in a 4P game? This is what the social contract is for. Commander is about playing all the weird crazy cards that don’t make it in other formats. Hating out the wishes is very counter to that notion, imo.
If someone wants to host a Commander tournament (e.g. a Grand Prix side event), they can specify no wish effects are allowed in the tournament if they like.
But it shouldn’t be “banned by default” in my view, because that empowers people to say no in their local groups to something that fits just fine in the format.
I’m in the camp that feels wishes should work in Commander, but not for the reasons I’ve seen stated thus far.
Commander is a casual format. It is not played by official tournament rules (regular or higher rules enforcement level). In casual formats, wishes are not restricted to sideboards proper but work with a player’s entire collection. Rule 13 referencing “no sideboards” seems confusing and tangential to the relevant fact that, in a casual game, you don’t need a sideboard for wishes!
Many things in Commander can be unfun to play against; how is searching your binder for a card any more disruptive than a turn 10 Warp World in a 4P game? This is what the social contract is for. Commander is about playing all the weird crazy cards that don’t make it in other formats. Hating out the wishes is very counter to that notion, imo.
If someone wants to host a Commander tournament (e.g. a Grand Prix side event), they can specify no wish effects are allowed in the tournament if they like.
But it shouldn’t be “banned by default” in my view, because that empowers people to say no in their local groups to something that fits just fine in the format.
I agree entirely but with one small quibble: As can be seen in my (oft half-quoted) post, what you have said is what I had originally said. Primarily, I’m not in favor of sideboards, maybeboards, wishboards, ect.
A counterpoint (from others) is for people who want the wishes to work in Commander can appeal to the social contract / Rule 0. But like Dormammu has said here, it would be better* to allow the wishes to work as originally intended** and instead have players appeal to Rule 0 to limit time spent looking for a wished card.
*I’m on a phone so please don’t ask me to explain “better”.
**To search one’s collection.
I feel I should mention that I respect the members of the committee and their decisions. And that my replies in this thread are meant to be conversational, and maybe even contemplative, but not argumentative. For now, I stand by my opinions. And would encourage the committee to find fun whereever it can be found. In this case, I think they’ve made a decision out of fear of backlash (and surely convinced themselves it was the smart choice) rather than living up to the spirit of EDH.
I don't know if there's a reason why "wishes don't work" should just be the default, but I'm glad it is. Wishes are lame and I don't want people to play them. Tutors are already like the 3rd more reviled thing in the format. Mass land destruction is 1, infinite combos are 2, and I think tutors are number 3 on the list, and I think wishes are worse that tutors. There's something off about playing a card that just finds what you need in 99 card singleton, and finding what you need without even putting it in the deck is doubly off, and people running wishes would be near the top of the most common complaints in the format very quickly.
And beyond just gut feeling, I think wishes are bad for the format. I think they'd be one more crutch (like Sol Ring) that inhibits people from becoming better players. Incorporating incredibly niche cards you wouldn't usually put in a deck is a deckbuilding challenge, and overcoming challenges like that leads to personal growth and interesting gameplay. Wishes may add some creative possibilities that don't exist without them, but they remove a very large demand for creative thinking, and adding more ways to thoughtlessly skate through deckbuilding is the fast track to dull gameplay that bores people out of the format. The person who wins with Brand in their 99 can excitedly post in the crazy plays thread, the person who wishes for it gets groaned at.
And from an online perspective, it saves people like me from having to say "I know this would work better with a wish plan, but I don't like wishes, I'm avoiding them on purpose."
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
including the fact that we would have to ban at least six or more cards to implement this change without breaking the format.
Just because I'm curious (and well aware that the list is hypothetical and in no way binding, what are the 6+ cards that you expect would likely require a ban if the rules were changed?
What was the thought process for the RC and CAG on planeswalkers?
It basically boiled down to the fact that there was no real upside beyond flavor and letting people play their favourite walkers as commanders. This was offset with a lot of downside, including the fact that we would have to ban at least six or more cards to implement this change without breaking the format. Additionally, planeswalker commanders slow down games a lot and allowing for blanket PW commanders would dilute a lot of the identity of the commander format.
Was Banned as a Commander brought up in the PW as commander discussion?
It basically boiled down to the fact that there was no real upside beyond flavor and letting people play their favourite walkers as commanders. This was offset with a lot of downside, including the fact that we would have to ban at least six or more cards to implement this change without breaking the format. Additionally, planeswalker commanders slow down games a lot and allowing for blanket PW commanders would dilute a lot of the identity of the commander format.
I'd love to know what these 6 cards were. At a guess for some (and let me know if these are way off):
Considering how a whole category of cards deemed problematic falls down to "passing the Doubling Season test", I would have thought offing that would be the smartest route.
Tutors are already like the 3rd more reviled thing in the format.
...and I think wishes are worse that tutors.
...and people running wishes would be near the top of the most common complaints in the format very quickly.
I hear what you’re saying but don’t agree with this sentiment. There’s already well over 600 cards (and counting) that “search your library”. A dozen more shouldn’t hurt. Maybe they would. We can’t know without trying. Rules can be reversed.
Tutors are already like the 3rd more reviled thing in the format.
...and I think wishes are worse that tutors.
...and people running wishes would be near the top of the most common complaints in the format very quickly.
I hear what you’re saying but don’t agree with this sentiment. There’s already well over 600 cards (and counting) that “search your library”. A dozen more shouldn’t hurt. Maybe they would. We can’t know without trying. Rules can be reversed.
Your more than welcomed to do it in your local play group.
Tutors are already like the 3rd more reviled thing in the format.
...and I think wishes are worse that tutors.
...and people running wishes would be near the top of the most common complaints in the format very quickly.
I hear what you’re saying but don’t agree with this sentiment. There’s already well over 600 cards (and counting) that “search your library”. A dozen more shouldn’t hurt. Maybe they would. We can’t know without trying. Rules can be reversed.
Tell us, why is it that you take issue with the current ruling, knowing full well that a play group can opt to allow wish cards and/or sideboards? There's nothing "technically" stopping you from making a case to your group for the amendment of the official rules. It does require a bit of convincing and the effort to do so on your part, but it's still possible.
It seems like those in the court of "I want to play wishes" want the floodgates open. I can tell you with certainty that, at the very least, people will not want to wait for a wish user to pull out a binder to search for a card that fits the unique situation they're in.
Also, how will you rectify the singleton rule? Are you and your compatriots also suggesting that this "any card outside the game" also allow for a duplicate of a card in your deck? And if that's not what your're suggesting, how can anyone verify this without going through your deck to confirm it's not a duplicate?
The benefits of interactions with wishes would be outweighed by the rulings that would need to be added: they would only complicate the format further.
"Each player starts with a wishboard of X cards before the game starts. X has an approximate range of 0 to 15. The number of actual cards within that range is determined by the deck's pilot before the game starts."
I hear what you’re saying but don’t agree with this sentiment. There’s already well over 600 cards (and counting) that “search your library”. A dozen more shouldn’t hurt. Maybe they would. We can’t know without trying. Rules can be reversed.
That's not a fair assessment of the number of tutors. The vast majority of those 600+ cards that contain "search your library" aren't tutors. You're counting mama ramp, cards that search for 1 specific card, and cards that search a library but doesn't give you the card, and probably Aberrant Researcher twice.
It's not a tutor if it doesn't find you multiple options and give you the card. There are a few dozen of those.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Paliano, the High City doesn't explain how it doesn't do anything either... Wishes specify outside the game, conspiracy cards specify drafting. I'm seriously not seeing any difference. You're granting that the average EDH player is smart enough to know that draft cards don't work when you don't draft but not that sideboard tutors don't work when there aren't sideboards?
Paliano, the High City doesn't explain how it doesn't do anything either... Wishes specify outside the game, conspiracy cards specify drafting. I'm seriously not seeing any difference. You're granting that the average EDH player is smart enough to know that draft cards don't work when you don't draft but not that sideboard tutors don't work when there aren't sideboards?
Yet you're quoting a ruling for general unsanctioned play, as defined by WotC. Commander/EDH is still solely in the control of the RC/CAG. WotC just saw a market for it and now makes products for it as another revenue stream.
Please see rules:
4) A Commander deck must contain exactly 100 cards, including the Commander
* to pull cards in from outside the game effectively gives you more than 100 cards, which is against rule 4. Adding a rule to say that wished cards are exiled upon resolution is a less elegant way to handle it. The potential for 101 cards or more in game would violate deck construction and possibly result in a DQ.
13) Abilities which bring card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Wishes; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.
* it now says they don't work to pull cards outside the game, into the game for use.
And would encourage the committee to find fun whereever it can be found. In this case, I think they’ve made a decision out of fear of backlash (and surely convinced themselves it was the smart choice) rather than living up to the spirit of EDH.
The RC has made controversial decisions before, and I have never seen fear be a factor. If anything they take the mantle of 'spirit of EDH' as the basis of the decisions, fear of backlash be darned.
Lots of people don't think Wishes are fun.
Lots of people don't agree on how best to implement them.
Lots of people don't want to be forced to play against them.
If you want to play wishes, its real easy. But that absolutely should not be the baseline rules set for playing with people you do not know.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Yet you're quoting a ruling for general unsanctioned play, as defined by WotC. Commander/EDH is still solely in the control of the RC/CAG. WotC just saw a market for it and now makes products for it as another revenue stream.
Please see rules:
4) A Commander deck must contain exactly 100 cards, including the Commander
* to pull cards in from outside the game effectively gives you more than 100 cards, which is against rule 4. Adding a rule to say that wished cards are exiled upon resolution is a less elegant way to handle it. The potential for 101 cards or more in game would violate deck construction and possibly result in a DQ.
13) Abilities which bring card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Wishes; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.
* it now says they don't work to pull cards outside the game, into the game for use.
Seeing as how a large portion of EDH games are unsanctioned pick-up games, I felt it was appropriate to quote the segment about unsanctioned play.
As for the rest of your post, I don't really know what you're getting at. I'm aware that Wishes don't work in EDH, that was the whole reason I spoke up in the first place. I think it makes far more sense to simply outright ban any card that references "outside the game" (even if that means a little bit of collateral damage in the form of "oh no, now I can't play half of Karn, the Great Creator") than to relegate it to the last rule listed which some people may not even see because the only thing they check is if their cards are legal or not. Wishes are, for all intents and purposes, banned. Might as well list them as such.
Yet you're quoting a ruling for general unsanctioned play, as defined by WotC. Commander/EDH is still solely in the control of the RC/CAG. WotC just saw a market for it and now makes products for it as another revenue stream.
Please see rules:
4) A Commander deck must contain exactly 100 cards, including the Commander
* to pull cards in from outside the game effectively gives you more than 100 cards, which is against rule 4. Adding a rule to say that wished cards are exiled upon resolution is a less elegant way to handle it. The potential for 101 cards or more in game would violate deck construction and possibly result in a DQ.
13) Abilities which bring card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Wishes; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.
* it now says they don't work to pull cards outside the game, into the game for use.
Seeing as how a large portion of EDH games are unsanctioned pick-up games, I felt it was appropriate to quote the segment about unsanctioned play.
As for the rest of your post, I don't really know what you're getting at. I'm aware that Wishes don't work in EDH, that was the whole reason I spoke up in the first place. I think it makes far more sense to simply outright ban any card that references "outside the game" (even if that means a little bit of collateral damage in the form of "oh no, now I can't play half of Karn, the Great Creator") than to relegate it to the last rule listed which some people may not even see because the only thing they check is if their cards are legal or not. Wishes are, for all intents and purposes, banned. Might as well list them as such.
Fair points. Commander/EDH is the brain child of the RC, and WotC is content to allow them to officially handle the rulings of the format because they created it and it's done exceptionally well to date. If the RC makes a ruling for their format, it holds above those of the regular rulings. Ex. 100 card singleton vs 60 card minimum with 4 copies of most cards being allowed.
This recent clarification of the ruling is just as much a practical decision as it is a long term one. If WotC decides to print more cards like Karn, the Great Creator that have more than a singular "wish" functionality, they would be auto-banned by your definition. Karn's pull from outside the game ability is effectively 25% of the card. The static ability, +1 and half of the minus are still usable in commander without the wish part. No reason to do the "throw the baby out with the bathwater" when the problem is the wish card functionality.
I think it makes far more sense to simply outright ban any card that references "outside the game" (even if that means a little bit of collateral damage in the form of "oh no, now I can't play half of Karn, the Great Creator") than to relegate it to the last rule listed which some people may not even see because the only thing they check is if their cards are legal or not. Wishes are, for all intents and purposes, banned. Might as well list them as such.
Agreed 100% though as a distant second to them just functioning as intended.
Your more than welcomed to do it in your local play group.
People: “Refer to Rule 0 if you want to use wishes.”
Me: “Refer to Rule 0 if you don’t want to use wishes.”
So far not a convincing argument against wish effects actually working in Commander. Words like “floodgate” are just pessimistic conjecture, not reflective of any reality. Conjecture is all any of us, even the committee, have in this matter because wish effects haven’t even been given an official chance in Commander. I hope the committee will revisit the wishes sooner than later and work them meaningfully into the Commander paradigm.
In the meantime, I’ve modified my original list of imaginary rules concerning wish effects.
A player may wish for a card if:
1. The card is owned by the controller of the wish effect.
2. The card is legal in Commander. (Sorry Pikachu.)
3. The card is outside of the game.
4. The card is of the color identity of the deck.
5. The card is sleeved to match those of the deck of the controller of the wish effect, if necessary.
6. The card is not a duplicate of any card already in the deck of the controller of the wish effect, unless the deck can have any number of copies of that card.
I think it makes far more sense to simply outright ban any card that references "outside the game" (even if that means a little bit of collateral damage in the form of "oh no, now I can't play half of Karn, the Great Creator") than to relegate it to the last rule listed which some people may not even see because the only thing they check is if their cards are legal or not. Wishes are, for all intents and purposes, banned. Might as well list them as such.
Agreed 100% though as a distant second to them just functioning as intended.
Your more than welcomed to do it in your local play group.
People: “Refer to Rule 0 if you want to use wishes.”
Me: “Refer to Rule 0 if you don’t want to use wishes.”
So far not a convincing argument against wish effects actually working in Commander. Words like “floodgate” are just pessimistic conjecture, not reflective of any reality. Conjecture is all any of us, even the committee, have in this matter because wish effects haven’t even been given an official chance in Commander. I hope the committee will revisit the wishes sooner than later and work them meaningfully into the Commander paradigm.
In the meantime, I’ve modified my original list of imaginary rules concerning wish effects.
A player may wish for a card if:
1. The card is owned by the controller of the wish effect.
2. The card is legal in Commander. (Sorry Pikachu.)
3. The card is outside of the game.
4. The card is of the color identity of the deck.
5. The card is sleeved to match those of the deck of the controller of the wish effect, if necessary.
6. The card is not a duplicate of any card already in the deck of the controller of the wish effect, unless the deck can have any number of copies of that card.
* Still doesn't address you having more cards "in game" after the resolution of the wish than is legally allowed.
* Still doesn't address the potentially significant increase in time it will take to choose a card that meets your criteria (pulling out and searching a binder, etc)
- this is basically a case for a sideboard, which is also not a thing in commander. Whether the delay of game takes place between rounds of people proactively sideboarding or the use of wishes, there are too many concessions to be allowed for so few cards to see play.
* It encourages people to run specific hate cards or answers they otherwise couldn't justify mainboard. This is a negative effect on deck construction. The last 1-15 cards are among the hardest to cut, and a necessary part of the deck building process.
* Adding these numerous rules for what amounts to 12 of 16k+ cards is excessive.
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I know from the Command Zone episode where Josh joins the CAG he states he is in favor of no changes. He is taking a don’t rock the boat, don’t fix what ain’t broke mentality. He also extends that to the idea of planeswalkers as commanders in that episode. I disagree with his arguments againist them, but for now it seems to be the way it will go for awhile.
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GWU Angus Mackenzie's Fog of War GWU / B Sheoldred's Sleepless Cemetery B / R Ashling's Purifying Pilgrimage R
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Oathbreaker: UB Ashiok's Persistent Nightmare UB
By that logic, the rule shouldn’t have been made and should be immediately removed because the committee has made their “reasonable interpretation” into a rule, and right out of the gate, there’s people that are unhappy with it.
While I am not one of them, I do like for as many cards as possible to be playable, and meaningfully so. Aren't the rules, at least in part (a great part), intended to direct players to the greatest potential for enjoyment? Of course. So then why not try something fun rather than something that literally amounts to nothing?
Because Chaos for the sake of Chaos, is not a good reason to do anything (contrary to what the Scrambleverse/Warp World/Possibility Storm players think).
They just said that if all Planeswalkers were available as commanders, that they would have to ban 6 or more cards to allow for it. That is the opposite of what the RC/CAG is trying to do.
Even in the case of wish cards, you're still looking at 2 options:
1) Someone decides to grind the game to a halt to pull out their binder to cherry pick a card for a niche situation (if a sideboard rule isn't implemented)
Both scenarios speak to an issue with the competitive tit-for-tat, silver bullet answers that are found in constructed formats. Cards aren't worthy of inclusion mainboard because they're too narrow of an answer and won't be effective against all deck types. I'd recommend building a more versatile deck with a variety of answers to account for a wider range of threats. Even cEDH doesn't allow wishboards...
For the sake of continuity and a singular message, the official statement/stance was made. The proverbial line in the sand...
If you and your play group don't want to abide by it, that's fine. You can literally wipe away the line with your foot and draw a new one in either direction.
What you can't do, however, is expect people of another group or LGS to accept your stance on wishboards/sideboards. It's never been a thing before on account of how the rules have been to date, it's just now a clear stance on the matter versus an ambiguous one where "the card text wins out".
Commander is a casual format. It is not played by official tournament rules (regular or higher rules enforcement level). In casual formats, wishes are not restricted to sideboards proper but work with a player’s entire collection. Rule 13 referencing “no sideboards” seems confusing and tangential to the relevant fact that, in a casual game, you don’t need a sideboard for wishes!
Many things in Commander can be unfun to play against; how is searching your binder for a card any more disruptive than a turn 10 Warp World in a 4P game? This is what the social contract is for. Commander is about playing all the weird crazy cards that don’t make it in other formats. Hating out the wishes is very counter to that notion, imo.
If someone wants to host a Commander tournament (e.g. a Grand Prix side event), they can specify no wish effects are allowed in the tournament if they like.
But it shouldn’t be “banned by default” in my view, because that empowers people to say no in their local groups to something that fits just fine in the format.
I agree entirely but with one small quibble: As can be seen in my (oft half-quoted) post, what you have said is what I had originally said. Primarily, I’m not in favor of sideboards, maybeboards, wishboards, ect.
A counterpoint (from others) is for people who want the wishes to work in Commander can appeal to the social contract / Rule 0. But like Dormammu has said here, it would be better* to allow the wishes to work as originally intended** and instead have players appeal to Rule 0 to limit time spent looking for a wished card.
*I’m on a phone so please don’t ask me to explain “better”.
**To search one’s collection.
I feel I should mention that I respect the members of the committee and their decisions. And that my replies in this thread are meant to be conversational, and maybe even contemplative, but not argumentative. For now, I stand by my opinions. And would encourage the committee to find fun whereever it can be found. In this case, I think they’ve made a decision out of fear of backlash (and surely convinced themselves it was the smart choice) rather than living up to the spirit of EDH.
And beyond just gut feeling, I think wishes are bad for the format. I think they'd be one more crutch (like Sol Ring) that inhibits people from becoming better players. Incorporating incredibly niche cards you wouldn't usually put in a deck is a deckbuilding challenge, and overcoming challenges like that leads to personal growth and interesting gameplay. Wishes may add some creative possibilities that don't exist without them, but they remove a very large demand for creative thinking, and adding more ways to thoughtlessly skate through deckbuilding is the fast track to dull gameplay that bores people out of the format. The person who wins with Brand in their 99 can excitedly post in the crazy plays thread, the person who wishes for it gets groaned at.
And from an online perspective, it saves people like me from having to say "I know this would work better with a wish plan, but I don't like wishes, I'm avoiding them on purpose."
Just because I'm curious (and well aware that the list is hypothetical and in no way binding, what are the 6+ cards that you expect would likely require a ban if the rules were changed?
Was Banned as a Commander brought up in the PW as commander discussion?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I'd love to know what these 6 cards were. At a guess for some (and let me know if these are way off):
Considering how a whole category of cards deemed problematic falls down to "passing the Doubling Season test", I would have thought offing that would be the smartest route.
I hear what you’re saying but don’t agree with this sentiment. There’s already well over 600 cards (and counting) that “search your library”. A dozen more shouldn’t hurt. Maybe they would. We can’t know without trying. Rules can be reversed.
Your more than welcomed to do it in your local play group.
Tell us, why is it that you take issue with the current ruling, knowing full well that a play group can opt to allow wish cards and/or sideboards? There's nothing "technically" stopping you from making a case to your group for the amendment of the official rules. It does require a bit of convincing and the effort to do so on your part, but it's still possible.
It seems like those in the court of "I want to play wishes" want the floodgates open. I can tell you with certainty that, at the very least, people will not want to wait for a wish user to pull out a binder to search for a card that fits the unique situation they're in.
Also, how will you rectify the singleton rule? Are you and your compatriots also suggesting that this "any card outside the game" also allow for a duplicate of a card in your deck? And if that's not what your're suggesting, how can anyone verify this without going through your deck to confirm it's not a duplicate?
The benefits of interactions with wishes would be outweighed by the rulings that would need to be added: they would only complicate the format further.
Which is how people commonly play wishboards.
That's not a fair assessment of the number of tutors. The vast majority of those 600+ cards that contain "search your library" aren't tutors. You're counting mama ramp, cards that search for 1 specific card, and cards that search a library but doesn't give you the card, and probably Aberrant Researcher twice.
It's not a tutor if it doesn't find you multiple options and give you the card. There are a few dozen of those.
"In a sanctioned event, a card that’s “outside the game” is one that’s in your sideboard. In an unsanctioned event, you may choose any card from your collection."
Yeah. Weird why I might think that.
Like dark steel relic. It had no use other than increase storm count and in unison with clock of omens. Helps me to untap Mana rocks.
No card is truly useless, but some are impractical.
Yet you're quoting a ruling for general unsanctioned play, as defined by WotC. Commander/EDH is still solely in the control of the RC/CAG. WotC just saw a market for it and now makes products for it as another revenue stream.
Please see rules:
4) A Commander deck must contain exactly 100 cards, including the Commander
* to pull cards in from outside the game effectively gives you more than 100 cards, which is against rule 4. Adding a rule to say that wished cards are exiled upon resolution is a less elegant way to handle it. The potential for 101 cards or more in game would violate deck construction and possibly result in a DQ.
13) Abilities which bring card(s) you own from outside the game into the game (such as Wishes; Spawnsire of Ulamog; Karn, the Great Creator) do not function in Commander.
* it now says they don't work to pull cards outside the game, into the game for use.
Lots of people don't think Wishes are fun.
Lots of people don't agree on how best to implement them.
Lots of people don't want to be forced to play against them.
If you want to play wishes, its real easy. But that absolutely should not be the baseline rules set for playing with people you do not know.
As for the rest of your post, I don't really know what you're getting at. I'm aware that Wishes don't work in EDH, that was the whole reason I spoke up in the first place. I think it makes far more sense to simply outright ban any card that references "outside the game" (even if that means a little bit of collateral damage in the form of "oh no, now I can't play half of Karn, the Great Creator") than to relegate it to the last rule listed which some people may not even see because the only thing they check is if their cards are legal or not. Wishes are, for all intents and purposes, banned. Might as well list them as such.
Fair points. Commander/EDH is the brain child of the RC, and WotC is content to allow them to officially handle the rulings of the format because they created it and it's done exceptionally well to date. If the RC makes a ruling for their format, it holds above those of the regular rulings. Ex. 100 card singleton vs 60 card minimum with 4 copies of most cards being allowed.
This recent clarification of the ruling is just as much a practical decision as it is a long term one. If WotC decides to print more cards like Karn, the Great Creator that have more than a singular "wish" functionality, they would be auto-banned by your definition. Karn's pull from outside the game ability is effectively 25% of the card. The static ability, +1 and half of the minus are still usable in commander without the wish part. No reason to do the "throw the baby out with the bathwater" when the problem is the wish card functionality.
Agreed 100% though as a distant second to them just functioning as intended.
People: “Refer to Rule 0 if you want to use wishes.”
Me: “Refer to Rule 0 if you don’t want to use wishes.”
So far not a convincing argument against wish effects actually working in Commander. Words like “floodgate” are just pessimistic conjecture, not reflective of any reality. Conjecture is all any of us, even the committee, have in this matter because wish effects haven’t even been given an official chance in Commander. I hope the committee will revisit the wishes sooner than later and work them meaningfully into the Commander paradigm.
In the meantime, I’ve modified my original list of imaginary rules concerning wish effects.
A player may wish for a card if:
1. The card is owned by the controller of the wish effect.
2. The card is legal in Commander. (Sorry Pikachu.)
3. The card is outside of the game.
4. The card is of the color identity of the deck.
5. The card is sleeved to match those of the deck of the controller of the wish effect, if necessary.
6. The card is not a duplicate of any card already in the deck of the controller of the wish effect, unless the deck can have any number of copies of that card.
* Still doesn't address you having more cards "in game" after the resolution of the wish than is legally allowed.
* Still doesn't address the potentially significant increase in time it will take to choose a card that meets your criteria (pulling out and searching a binder, etc)
- this is basically a case for a sideboard, which is also not a thing in commander. Whether the delay of game takes place between rounds of people proactively sideboarding or the use of wishes, there are too many concessions to be allowed for so few cards to see play.
* It encourages people to run specific hate cards or answers they otherwise couldn't justify mainboard. This is a negative effect on deck construction. The last 1-15 cards are among the hardest to cut, and a necessary part of the deck building process.
* Adding these numerous rules for what amounts to 12 of 16k+ cards is excessive.