My first EDH deck was Karador. It would control the game, then win with small increments of damage. I wanted no combos.. Then one day, I soft-locked the table with Sun Titan, Dauntless Escort, Karador and Pernicious Deed.
I was attacking for 9 damage a turn, and it lasted for a good 20 minutes before it was over.
I realized that my deck would need infinite combos so that I could end the game faster.
Now, fast-forward 10 years, and I just completed two decks that are facing similar issues.
First is Creatureless PanharmoniconMogis, God of Laughter. The deck uses Tainted Aether and other effects that will double with Panharmonicon, and gives my opponents creatures with Forbidden Orchard and a few other cards. Unfortunately, it is super unfun.. I become Archenemy, and I basically ruin ones person's life since most creature giving effects only give them to one opponent... and if I win, it's unfun... and if I lose, I have probably been a kingmaker.
So, now I look at these two decks.. and I really like them... but the options are to make them more competitive (like I did with Karador), or to make them more fun for opponents.
I do not want to try to spike them out... especially since they are not as easy as Karador to turn into competitive decks.
I do not see how I can make them fun for my opponents since their goals are ridiculously unfun.
Oh yeah, that happens all the time. Although sometimes I think my opponents are just unpleasable little *****s.
Anyway my solution is to never build a deck permanently and always be building new stuff. Then even if they hate it, they won't hate it for long.
When I do find a deck that's fun for me, fun (enough) for my opponents, and has enough replay value, only then do I enshrine it as a perma-deck, which has different sleeves from the rest of my collection and doesn't get taken apart in a few weeks like my other decks. So far I've got 2, working on a third (Zirilan, Phelddagrif, and working on Kaervek).
I tend to take those kind of decks apart, learn from them and make more "table-friendly" decks in the future.
One of my earliest EDH decks was a Darigaaz deck with a relatively simple plan: make everyone draw, ramp myself like nuts, symmetrically destroy lands (leaving me often the only able to cast stuff for real), punish people based on handsize (Price of Knowledge and every Sudden Impact variant...)... profit?
But it was unfun to the extreme to play against if it worked - and if it didn't, I just accelerated everyone and got routed if anyone knew my gameplan. I have not made that idea(or similar) again since scrapping the deck, although there's been the occasional deck idea I've left on the drawing board as I've realized the 'fun factor' might not be there.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
I've run into this issue once or twice, in days when I was more open to combo and other degeneracies. I remember a 60-card build I threw every druid variant into just to have all of the lands with Gilt-Leaf Archdruid. It wasn't good, but it was unpleasant to play against. I quickly realised that because no one else was enjoying themselves, I was enjoying myself less too.
So these days, I tend not to build too busted. There's a sweet spot between straight out combo/stax and casual that allows you to be relatively competitive, stay relevant to the table, win the odd game, and allow everyone to have fun. It's hard to hit, but that's my life's goal as far as MtG is concerned. The other plus side is that, while you still run strong cards, victory is more in your lines of play than the cards you put in your deck. That's part of the fun.
Usually my deck themes are far from oppressive. I mean yeah I'll throw in a floodgate or so like Torpor Orb and Rest in Peace but I'm not gonna do things like land destruction engines or have Teferi dunk everyone's head into the knowledge pool until the bubbles stop. The rest of my group and I are not fans of that kind of gameplay.
I will however admit to having made a mistake. I had a Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge deck that was designed to exile my opponents libraries either by constantly casting Jeleva herself or through various Extract and Bitter Ordeal like effects. The table did not like that at all and actually made several of them feel rather violated as I peeled their wincons and cool toys off their hot, sweaty libraries
These days I would probably bench the deck for a while, not playing it, and think about what aspect was making it unpleasant for myself or opponents. Was it how I was playing the deck? Was it certain cards and/or certain effects that were too oppressive? If I remove or limit those, how does that affect the deck's goals and by how much? If I think my friends are having an unfun time in a game (because of me), I like to talk to them either right then (if it's really bad) or right after that game ends. That kind of feedback ended up shaping my overall approach to the game, not just specific builds — not that I try to win any less, but that it's just as much about managing the other players' perceptions and expectations as it is managing the battlefield/graveyards/etc.
If I think I can rebuild in a way that will be better, I'd then lay the deck's cards out into their groups and figure things out. I'm pretty optimistic that most decks that end up containing some sort of lockout can still work without the lock. Sometimes a change such as using card draw for variability instead of tutors helps make a deck feel different enough. Some types of decks it's harder to find the balance, certainly.
A few weeks ago a friend requested that I put Norin back together because he wanted to play against it. It went pretty much how he remembered and wasn't fun, so we just stopped mid-game and started over with different decks. Pretty much confirmed why I'd taken it apart to begin with.
The other plus side is that, while you still run strong cards, victory is more in your lines of play than the cards you put in your deck. That's part of the fun.
I will however admit to having made a mistake. I had a Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge deck that was designed to exile my opponents libraries either by constantly casting Jeleva herself or through various Extract and Bitter Ordeal like effects. The table did not like that at all and actually made several of them feel rather violated as I peeled their wincons and cool toys off their hot, sweaty libraries
I used to run Jester's Cap in my Glissa build for this reason. I had a few people get shirty about it, but I don't actually think this one is that unfair. If someone has gone all in on a Laboratory Maniac win con and I remove that I don't feel bad - it sort of forces people to win the game fairly, and usually the only people that get salty are the ones that don't have a way to do so. I did remove it from the deck because I'm a nice guy though, maybe I should've just stuck to my resolve and kept it in there.
Based on the decks you mentioned, it seems you prefer a troll-y style of play. My advice would be to embrace your nature, and just glory in the misery of your opponents.
If you don't always want to be a source of sorrow, make some proactive decks for those occasions. When I was playing all the time, I maxed out at 18 decks. Adding a ton of variety allows you to adjust for your mood, your playgroup, the amount of time you have, etc..
I used to run Jester's Cap in my Glissa build for this reason. I had a few people get shirty about it, but I don't actually think this one is that unfair. If someone has gone all in on a Laboratory Maniac win con and I remove that I don't feel bad - it sort of forces people to win the game fairly, and usually the only people that get salty are the ones that don't have a way to do so. I did remove it from the deck because I'm a nice guy though, maybe I should've just stuck to my resolve and kept it in there.
I ran a similar thing with Jester's Cap and Academy Ruins. It starts out relatively harmless, taking out a few bombs and key win pieces here and there but then before you know it your opponents give you grief for not at least getting them a drink first. Like, it was the one-two whammy of taking away their toys AND the intrusive feeling of someone repeatedly looking through their libraries that made my friends hate that deck with a passion.
I used to run Jester's Cap in my Glissa build for this reason. I had a few people get shirty about it, but I don't actually think this one is that unfair. If someone has gone all in on a Laboratory Maniac win con and I remove that I don't feel bad - it sort of forces people to win the game fairly, and usually the only people that get salty are the ones that don't have a way to do so. I did remove it from the deck because I'm a nice guy though, maybe I should've just stuck to my resolve and kept it in there.
I ran a similar thing with Jester's Cap and Academy Ruins. It starts out relatively harmless, taking out a few bombs and key win pieces here and there but then before you know it your opponents give you grief for not at least getting them a drink first. Like, it was the one-two whammy of taking away their toys AND the intrusive feeling of someone repeatedly looking through their libraries that made my friends hate that deck with a passion.
Yeah, thinking on it, I definitely didn't recur the Cap as much as I could've. Like I was having to consciously make an effort to not do exactly this.
Yeah, I learned the hard way that Jester's Cap and other effects like it are a joke that is a lot less funny with each time you tell it. At least you never made my mistake. >_>'
I still run very light amounts of library extraction in mill oriented decks so I can remove obstacles like Eldrazi titans. Just not in your face stuff like Sadistic Sacrament or the Jester's Cap engine.
well, that's what's happened to my Kaalia. Not gonna stop playing it, but I recognize the feels and can bust out Traxos ("Trash Dragon"). Or Alesha. Or screw it and back to Kaalia >_>
To be fair, unless you're absolutely shredding someone's deck to oblivion, I don't see what's wrong with removing key pieces. Like the world could do without another Lab Man win, or another Aetherflux Reservoir doom cannon. If my opponents didn't run the threat, I wouldn't remove the bare bones of the deck, I'm not heartless. The way I see it, it's just levelling the playing field.
Based on the decks you mentioned, it seems you prefer a troll-y style of play. My advice would be to embrace your nature, and just glory in the misery of your opponents.
If you don't always want to be a source of sorrow, make some proactive decks for those occasions. When I was playing all the time, I maxed out at 18 decks. Adding a ton of variety allows you to adjust for your mood, your playgroup, the amount of time you have, etc..
I have 17 decks. Some are maybe 'trolling' decks but at least half of them are proactive. I actually built a Karador Spirit Tribal deck to have fun with Karador without playing any Grave Pacts or other overly controlling cards... though Yosei, The Morning Star is a spirit so he get's a pass.
Thanks for feedback everyone. It is hard to cut 'oppressive' cards and keep running the deck, since the decks were built around unfun cards. I will be more careful going forward because while they were fun to build and perfect, they were not fun to play.
I think I will keep the decks alive and just play them when I feel like being archenemy.
The next deck I was working on was a Glissa The Traitor deck... maybe I will hold off on that since it is a very controlling and grindy deck. Oh wait, I was also working on Muldrotha.
I think I am the problem with my own deckbuilding. I love grindy value engines.
it has to do with your level of reflection, skill in building, and ability to adapt.
if your decks are what you feel is perfect, and end up oppressive to everyone else, it means that no one else is adapting to deal with you. any deck you build is going to end up this way.
don't purposely nerf yourself
educate your opponents on how to beat you, or better cards to replace sub optimal ones in their builds
This is actually a common occurrence. You start building a deck around a cool idea, then you focus and tune it as you go. Eventually, you find that you've tuned it too far now, and it's simply too one-sided, or too focused. At this point, it can be hard to "downgrade" or even take apart the deck, because of the pride you have in the creation - EDH decks can be very personalized, and have a lot of intrinsic Identity.
This has happened to me with several decks, including Nemata, Chainer, Trostani, etc.
Often times, this for me is a cue to build a new deck, and start the process over again. This allows me to start a new path to start the process over again, and redo a lot of that exciting discovery, and end up with a new creation to be proud of.
In some cases, this may mean taking apart and reinventing a deck or theme. My Cromat deck (first deck) I rebuilt multiple times across different themes, before it was fully retired - though Cromat himself is sitting in my prefered pile, waiting to be rebuilt some day. Tibor and Lumia have likewise been rebuilt across multiple themes, and though I still have the deck together, it hasn't been updated in years, as current options have far outclassed them.
Other decks, such as Chainer and Trostani, I still keep together, and even lightly update them - but play them much more rarely. I carry a large number of decks with me (13 currently), so I can always adapt to the table's power. If I feel like pulling those decks again I ask if anyone would want to play a more 'evil' game, or a more tuned game, or might even request certain decks from other people - My brother's Glissa deck has a lot of graveyard removal, and I find it makes for a fun game against my Chainer deck.
Sometimes, I reserve certain slots in decks for "fun cards." Sandwurm Convergence isn't a powerful card, and is stupid expensive, but is one of several 'fun slots' that I've put into Trostani that are intended to be un-optimized.
Not running a card because you wouldn't have fun with it is the most important reason not to run a card.
Finally, one thing you can do is gauge reactions to certain cards, and whether they are meeting your expectations for a fun game. For me, certain cards have been cut from my decks, such as Torment of Hailfire. On paper, I was excited to try Torment, because it seemed to make for interesting decisions or be an interesting wrath type effect. In practice though, it's simply a kill spell that you crank enough into X that they can't outclass it, or an underwhelming impact spell in desperation. Every time it's been played, it's always been a bit of a deflation of the intrigue and interest of the game. Anti-climactic. Other cards that have made my list are Craterhoof Behemoth, Seedborn Muse (came off the list during Prophet of Kruphix times, but is now back on), Prophet (when legal), Vicious Shadows, Parallax Wave, etc.
Not all cards will be met with happiness and joy - some cards, such as counterspells and wraths are intended to impede or negate - but balancing how much is important as well. A few counterspells are healthy, but if you are doing a Forbid lock, or Familiar's Ruse + E.Witness, or Mystic Snake blinks... Well, that can get oppressive rather quickly and it might be a good idea to scale back part of the combo.
So something I learned from my early furor of deckbuilding when I discovered EDH is:
1) No one likes stax much, so theming around it is just a waste of time
2) Edict control is similarly just not all that fun (spamming grave pact stuff)
So I just stopped building those kinds of decks. It's rough in some ways because sometimes staxy stuff is the right way to build a deck. But no one ever really enjoys those games.
What I do now is make sure the deck's goal is going to be fun to play and sometimes be fun for my opponents even if I do prosecute my gameplan effectively.
You can't please everyone, and some people just aren't happy if they aren't winning. But if your deck always creates a boring experience when it wins something is wrong in my opinion.
I've run into a lot of decks like that, that either get the lock in early or they lose. Hell, I've played decks like that. It's just an exercise in frustration for everyone.
In general it kinda compares to Lantern control in modern. Playing stax pulls back the curtain on control and makes it obvious it isn't really a race.
Take something not good and build it to be good (ish). For example, as much as I talk about being the "Kaalia Godfather" I recognize the optimal deck is going to knock you out by t4 and pending meta that's not really a welcome sight. Since I'm not going to take the deck apart, I instead built another - white border. I limited myself to older cards and the deck, while optimized, has a definite cap on it's power ceiling. Which is only natural when you're playing Elder Land Wurms and Crimson Hellkites...
This take is also especially nostalgic to explore, and can lead to a reasonably powerful deck, just slow. There's a sick old school Esper control deck in WB too, if that's your thing. Or other alternative takes, like a commander of any rarity but the rest of your cards can be only common or uncommon. You get what I'm saying.
I’m a big proponent of the “build mean, play nice” philosophy. I have Wildfire and Keldon Firebombers in my Xantcha deck, though I will not play those if my opponents are playing some low-powered decks. If my opponents try to do degenerate stuff, you better believe I’m going to tutor up something nasty. Similarly, I have a Lavinia, Azorius Renegade in the sideboard of my Zedruu deck which runs both Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm.
I’m a big proponent of the “build mean, play nice” philosophy. I have Wildfire and Keldon Firebombers in my Xantcha deck, though I will not play those if my opponents are playing some low-powered decks. If my opponents try to do degenerate stuff, you better believe I’m going to tutor up something nasty. Similarly, I have a Lavinia, Azorius Renegade in the sideboard of my Zedruu deck which runs both Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm.
I'm the opposite. I build a deck for fun and then play it as well as I can - it makes it challenging and well-deserved when I win. I would feel bad if I just sat there with winning cards in hand and chose not to play them to prolong the game.
I used to play staxy type cards because they are great with Derevi (mainly Winter Orb and Birthing Pod into Hokori, Dust Drinker) but after reading some discussion on here I decided to build without and so far it's going great. My deck still abuses flicker locks and such but now it all feels very vulnerable. A well placed Supreme verdict or sudden spoiling can wreck me and I am usually very soft early game. My issue now is that I think I win too much with it and since the fun I garner from playing the deck is oppressive synergies that just win the game, or else I'm playing like *****, I feel awkward when I've already won a game that night. Like, I even feel insecure playing Archaeomancer with Helm of the host (even though it's a 13+ mana synergy) ... Idk maybe that is something I shouldn't feel worried about and I should be proud of how well my deck does. :/
I... like your deck ideas! I must say if I’m on the losing end I’d be happy too.
I never attempt to build a deck with two card combos, and I avoid cards like Deadeyes because it’s, well, so easily abusable even for amateurs, winning with it brings me no satisfaction, and losing to such brings ire. The combos you mentioned were intriguing approaches and hardly overpowered, so I wouldn’t have problem with it.
I will however admit to having made a mistake. I had a Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge deck that was designed to exile my opponents libraries either by constantly casting Jeleva herself or through various Extract and Bitter Ordeal like effects. The table did not like that at all and actually made several of them feel rather violated as I peeled their wincons and cool toys off their hot, sweaty libraries
I used to run Jester's Cap in my Glissa build for this reason. I had a few people get shirty about it, but I don't actually think this one is that unfair. If someone has gone all in on a Laboratory Maniac win con and I remove that I don't feel bad - it sort of forces people to win the game fairly, and usually the only people that get salty are the ones that don't have a way to do so. I did remove it from the deck because I'm a nice guy though, maybe I should've just stuck to my resolve and kept it in there.
That's because incompetent combo players don't realize you need a backup plan in case of disruption. Also, you need to protect your combo from disruption.
If you can't protect your combo (and every competent player will be gunning for your combo), you have to have a backup plan.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So, now I look at these two decks.. and I really like them... but the options are to make them more competitive (like I did with Karador), or to make them more fun for opponents.
I do not want to try to spike them out... especially since they are not as easy as Karador to turn into competitive decks.
I do not see how I can make them fun for my opponents since their goals are ridiculously unfun.
So what do you do when this happens?
It seems pretty simple to me. I think the main question you need to ask is how much fun are you willing to have at the expense of your friends' fun? That's not a rhetorical question by the way it's actually a pretty complicated situation. Every time you win, everyone else is losing (and vice versa). If you never win a game ever, you're not going to have fun (and that's not ok). If you win every game, none of your friends are ever going to have fun (and that's not ok). A middle ground is needed, and only you can find that.
Also, how you win is important too. It sounds like your friends don't enjoy being slowly ground to a find powder after being completely locked out of the game with a winter orb. I'm unsure of if that's because you've locked them out of the game, or because you've locked them out of the game and then take forever to actually end the game. You should figure this thing out. For example, (in my opinion) casting obliterate in edh isn't ok. Casting obliterate while you control Avacyn, Angel of Hope is ok. One of those grinds the game to a halt, one kills everyone in less than 5 minutes.
I also built Sydri Vehicle Stax based on this list: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/767833-sydri-train-simulator-2017. Basically, the idea is to crew vehicles with Winter Orb and other cards that turn off when tapped, making asymmetrical effects. I made a bunch of changes but the deck basically is a grindy stax deck that suddenly assembles it's goal and locks other people out. It is not competitive, so it makes for grindy games that are staxy, which is not great for more casual tables.
I'm confused as to why this deck is causing your casual tables so much trouble. You only have 2-3 staxs cards, almost no tutors, only a handful of counterspells, and only 1-2 ways to recur things. Does your table just not run artifact hate? This deck just folds at the waist to shatterstorm. It also is incredibly vulnerable to "vindicate your general". Without your general this deck basically can't abuse any of the stax effects you talked about. Do your friends not run a basic removal suite?
I was attacking for 9 damage a turn, and it lasted for a good 20 minutes before it was over.
I realized that my deck would need infinite combos so that I could end the game faster.
Now, fast-forward 10 years, and I just completed two decks that are facing similar issues.
First is Creatureless Panharmonicon Mogis, God of Laughter. The deck uses Tainted Aether and other effects that will double with Panharmonicon, and gives my opponents creatures with Forbidden Orchard and a few other cards. Unfortunately, it is super unfun.. I become Archenemy, and I basically ruin ones person's life since most creature giving effects only give them to one opponent... and if I win, it's unfun... and if I lose, I have probably been a kingmaker.
Sounds like your deck just needs a couple of Craterhoof Behemoth effects. Not specifically, pumping your creatures. I mean, you need more cards that bring rapid death to your opponents if unanswered. Vicious Shadows, Exsanguinate, or Blightsteel colossus. That kind of thing. Something that you cast and it gets people dead. I bet your friends wouldn't mind being soft-locked or staxed out for a couple of few minutes if you're brutally murdering one of them every turn and rapidly bringing a conclusion to the game so everyone can start again. That's not being spikey, that's just having an actual finisher.
I usually try to include one or two of them in every EDH deck I play. I think of it as my "this game has gone on for two and a half hours and really needs to be over now" button. I've got Worldslayer in my artifact deck, Rise of the Dark Realms in my mono-black, Laboratory Maniac in my self-mill, and some infinite combos in my changeling deck.
I'm the opposite. I build a deck for fun and then play it as well as I can - it makes it challenging and well-deserved when I win. I would feel bad if I just sat there with winning cards in hand and chose not to play them to prolong the game.
I am more on this page. I find the best way to do this is to pick an extremely specific theme and build around it, which keeps your build from getting overly oppressive. I don't mean a theme like Vampire Tribal or lands. I mean even more specific than that. I'm a real fan of the white bordered only EDH decks. I've got a changeling deck that every card is either a land, changeling, or a card that requires I say a creature type out loud. It's easily my favorite deck that I own and is pretty balanced.
My favorite deck theme that I've ever seen is my friends Sek'Kuar. He called it his WWE themed deck. Every card had to have art where the characters had both hands raised, like disciple of bolas and stuff. Deck was hilarious to look through.
When it comes to balancing my decks around fun and power level I have a few things I rely on. For one, I never play infinite combos or stax, because I find those strategies to be very unfun to play with and against. I don't like going after competitive builds either, and pretty much everyone in my playgroup feel the same about it. I try to make my decks powerful, but interactive. The other thing I like doing is having different decks for different power levels. I have only one deck so far I would call uninteractive and that's Jeleva, because she runs a bunch of extra turn spells. But I generally don't use this deck against casual decks, as it's more suited against equally focused decks. It's also more fun to have a few decks to choose from, and if you match the general power level of the table, everyone will get more enjoyment out of it.
But as someone pointed out before, some people are never happy with what you play, and at a certain point you don't have to care as long as you don't get kicked out of every playgroup lol.
I was attacking for 9 damage a turn, and it lasted for a good 20 minutes before it was over.
I realized that my deck would need infinite combos so that I could end the game faster.
Now, fast-forward 10 years, and I just completed two decks that are facing similar issues.
First is Creatureless Panharmonicon Mogis, God of Laughter. The deck uses Tainted Aether and other effects that will double with Panharmonicon, and gives my opponents creatures with Forbidden Orchard and a few other cards. Unfortunately, it is super unfun.. I become Archenemy, and I basically ruin ones person's life since most creature giving effects only give them to one opponent... and if I win, it's unfun... and if I lose, I have probably been a kingmaker.
I also built Sydri Vehicle Stax based on this list: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/767833-sydri-train-simulator-2017. Basically, the idea is to crew vehicles with Winter Orb and other cards that turn off when tapped, making asymmetrical effects. I made a bunch of changes but the deck basically is a grindy stax deck that suddenly assembles it's goal and locks other people out. It is not competitive, so it makes for grindy games that are staxy, which is not great for more casual tables.
So, now I look at these two decks.. and I really like them... but the options are to make them more competitive (like I did with Karador), or to make them more fun for opponents.
I do not want to try to spike them out... especially since they are not as easy as Karador to turn into competitive decks.
I do not see how I can make them fun for my opponents since their goals are ridiculously unfun.
So what do you do when this happens?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Anyway my solution is to never build a deck permanently and always be building new stuff. Then even if they hate it, they won't hate it for long.
When I do find a deck that's fun for me, fun (enough) for my opponents, and has enough replay value, only then do I enshrine it as a perma-deck, which has different sleeves from the rest of my collection and doesn't get taken apart in a few weeks like my other decks. So far I've got 2, working on a third (Zirilan, Phelddagrif, and working on Kaervek).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
One of my earliest EDH decks was a Darigaaz deck with a relatively simple plan: make everyone draw, ramp myself like nuts, symmetrically destroy lands (leaving me often the only able to cast stuff for real), punish people based on handsize (Price of Knowledge and every Sudden Impact variant...)... profit?
But it was unfun to the extreme to play against if it worked - and if it didn't, I just accelerated everyone and got routed if anyone knew my gameplan. I have not made that idea(or similar) again since scrapping the deck, although there's been the occasional deck idea I've left on the drawing board as I've realized the 'fun factor' might not be there.
So these days, I tend not to build too busted. There's a sweet spot between straight out combo/stax and casual that allows you to be relatively competitive, stay relevant to the table, win the odd game, and allow everyone to have fun. It's hard to hit, but that's my life's goal as far as MtG is concerned. The other plus side is that, while you still run strong cards, victory is more in your lines of play than the cards you put in your deck. That's part of the fun.
I will however admit to having made a mistake. I had a Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge deck that was designed to exile my opponents libraries either by constantly casting Jeleva herself or through various Extract and Bitter Ordeal like effects. The table did not like that at all and actually made several of them feel rather violated as I peeled their wincons and cool toys off their hot, sweaty libraries
If I think I can rebuild in a way that will be better, I'd then lay the deck's cards out into their groups and figure things out. I'm pretty optimistic that most decks that end up containing some sort of lockout can still work without the lock. Sometimes a change such as using card draw for variability instead of tutors helps make a deck feel different enough. Some types of decks it's harder to find the balance, certainly.
A few weeks ago a friend requested that I put Norin back together because he wanted to play against it. It went pretty much how he remembered and wasn't fun, so we just stopped mid-game and started over with different decks. Pretty much confirmed why I'd taken it apart to begin with.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
I used to run Jester's Cap in my Glissa build for this reason. I had a few people get shirty about it, but I don't actually think this one is that unfair. If someone has gone all in on a Laboratory Maniac win con and I remove that I don't feel bad - it sort of forces people to win the game fairly, and usually the only people that get salty are the ones that don't have a way to do so. I did remove it from the deck because I'm a nice guy though, maybe I should've just stuck to my resolve and kept it in there.
If you don't always want to be a source of sorrow, make some proactive decks for those occasions. When I was playing all the time, I maxed out at 18 decks. Adding a ton of variety allows you to adjust for your mood, your playgroup, the amount of time you have, etc..
I ran a similar thing with Jester's Cap and Academy Ruins. It starts out relatively harmless, taking out a few bombs and key win pieces here and there but then before you know it your opponents give you grief for not at least getting them a drink first. Like, it was the one-two whammy of taking away their toys AND the intrusive feeling of someone repeatedly looking through their libraries that made my friends hate that deck with a passion.
Yeah, thinking on it, I definitely didn't recur the Cap as much as I could've. Like I was having to consciously make an effort to not do exactly this.
I still run very light amounts of library extraction in mill oriented decks so I can remove obstacles like Eldrazi titans. Just not in your face stuff like Sadistic Sacrament or the Jester's Cap engine.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I have 17 decks. Some are maybe 'trolling' decks but at least half of them are proactive. I actually built a Karador Spirit Tribal deck to have fun with Karador without playing any Grave Pacts or other overly controlling cards... though Yosei, The Morning Star is a spirit so he get's a pass.
Thanks for feedback everyone. It is hard to cut 'oppressive' cards and keep running the deck, since the decks were built around unfun cards. I will be more careful going forward because while they were fun to build and perfect, they were not fun to play.
I think I will keep the decks alive and just play them when I feel like being archenemy.
The next deck I was working on was a Glissa The Traitor deck... maybe I will hold off on that since it is a very controlling and grindy deck. Oh wait, I was also working on Muldrotha.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
if your decks are what you feel is perfect, and end up oppressive to everyone else, it means that no one else is adapting to deal with you. any deck you build is going to end up this way.
don't purposely nerf yourself
educate your opponents on how to beat you, or better cards to replace sub optimal ones in their builds
This has happened to me with several decks, including Nemata, Chainer, Trostani, etc.
Often times, this for me is a cue to build a new deck, and start the process over again. This allows me to start a new path to start the process over again, and redo a lot of that exciting discovery, and end up with a new creation to be proud of.
In some cases, this may mean taking apart and reinventing a deck or theme. My Cromat deck (first deck) I rebuilt multiple times across different themes, before it was fully retired - though Cromat himself is sitting in my prefered pile, waiting to be rebuilt some day. Tibor and Lumia have likewise been rebuilt across multiple themes, and though I still have the deck together, it hasn't been updated in years, as current options have far outclassed them.
Other decks, such as Chainer and Trostani, I still keep together, and even lightly update them - but play them much more rarely. I carry a large number of decks with me (13 currently), so I can always adapt to the table's power. If I feel like pulling those decks again I ask if anyone would want to play a more 'evil' game, or a more tuned game, or might even request certain decks from other people - My brother's Glissa deck has a lot of graveyard removal, and I find it makes for a fun game against my Chainer deck.
Sometimes, I reserve certain slots in decks for "fun cards." Sandwurm Convergence isn't a powerful card, and is stupid expensive, but is one of several 'fun slots' that I've put into Trostani that are intended to be un-optimized.
Finally, one thing you can do is gauge reactions to certain cards, and whether they are meeting your expectations for a fun game. For me, certain cards have been cut from my decks, such as Torment of Hailfire. On paper, I was excited to try Torment, because it seemed to make for interesting decisions or be an interesting wrath type effect. In practice though, it's simply a kill spell that you crank enough into X that they can't outclass it, or an underwhelming impact spell in desperation. Every time it's been played, it's always been a bit of a deflation of the intrigue and interest of the game. Anti-climactic. Other cards that have made my list are Craterhoof Behemoth, Seedborn Muse (came off the list during Prophet of Kruphix times, but is now back on), Prophet (when legal), Vicious Shadows, Parallax Wave, etc.
Not all cards will be met with happiness and joy - some cards, such as counterspells and wraths are intended to impede or negate - but balancing how much is important as well. A few counterspells are healthy, but if you are doing a Forbid lock, or Familiar's Ruse + E.Witness, or Mystic Snake blinks... Well, that can get oppressive rather quickly and it might be a good idea to scale back part of the combo.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
1) No one likes stax much, so theming around it is just a waste of time
2) Edict control is similarly just not all that fun (spamming grave pact stuff)
So I just stopped building those kinds of decks. It's rough in some ways because sometimes staxy stuff is the right way to build a deck. But no one ever really enjoys those games.
What I do now is make sure the deck's goal is going to be fun to play and sometimes be fun for my opponents even if I do prosecute my gameplan effectively.
You can't please everyone, and some people just aren't happy if they aren't winning. But if your deck always creates a boring experience when it wins something is wrong in my opinion.
I've run into a lot of decks like that, that either get the lock in early or they lose. Hell, I've played decks like that. It's just an exercise in frustration for everyone.
In general it kinda compares to Lantern control in modern. Playing stax pulls back the curtain on control and makes it obvious it isn't really a race.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This take is also especially nostalgic to explore, and can lead to a reasonably powerful deck, just slow. There's a sick old school Esper control deck in WB too, if that's your thing. Or other alternative takes, like a commander of any rarity but the rest of your cards can be only common or uncommon. You get what I'm saying.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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I never attempt to build a deck with two card combos, and I avoid cards like Deadeyes because it’s, well, so easily abusable even for amateurs, winning with it brings me no satisfaction, and losing to such brings ire. The combos you mentioned were intriguing approaches and hardly overpowered, so I wouldn’t have problem with it.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
That's because incompetent combo players don't realize you need a backup plan in case of disruption. Also, you need to protect your combo from disruption.
Look at Hermit Druid. Look at its basic wincons:
Plan A: Hermit Druid into Dread Return brings back Angel of Glory's Rise brings back Laboratory Maniac and Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Plan B: Something with Necrotic Ooze (e.g., Devoted Druid and Quillspike)
Plan C: Voltron win with Scion of the Ur-Dragon into Moltensteel Dragon and Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon/Dragon Tyrant/Atarka, World Render
If you can't protect your combo (and every competent player will be gunning for your combo), you have to have a backup plan.
On phasing:
It seems pretty simple to me. I think the main question you need to ask is how much fun are you willing to have at the expense of your friends' fun? That's not a rhetorical question by the way it's actually a pretty complicated situation. Every time you win, everyone else is losing (and vice versa). If you never win a game ever, you're not going to have fun (and that's not ok). If you win every game, none of your friends are ever going to have fun (and that's not ok). A middle ground is needed, and only you can find that.
Also, how you win is important too. It sounds like your friends don't enjoy being slowly ground to a find powder after being completely locked out of the game with a winter orb. I'm unsure of if that's because you've locked them out of the game, or because you've locked them out of the game and then take forever to actually end the game. You should figure this thing out. For example, (in my opinion) casting obliterate in edh isn't ok. Casting obliterate while you control Avacyn, Angel of Hope is ok. One of those grinds the game to a halt, one kills everyone in less than 5 minutes.
I'm confused as to why this deck is causing your casual tables so much trouble. You only have 2-3 staxs cards, almost no tutors, only a handful of counterspells, and only 1-2 ways to recur things. Does your table just not run artifact hate? This deck just folds at the waist to shatterstorm. It also is incredibly vulnerable to "vindicate your general". Without your general this deck basically can't abuse any of the stax effects you talked about. Do your friends not run a basic removal suite?
Sounds like your deck just needs a couple of Craterhoof Behemoth effects. Not specifically, pumping your creatures. I mean, you need more cards that bring rapid death to your opponents if unanswered. Vicious Shadows, Exsanguinate, or Blightsteel colossus. That kind of thing. Something that you cast and it gets people dead. I bet your friends wouldn't mind being soft-locked or staxed out for a couple of few minutes if you're brutally murdering one of them every turn and rapidly bringing a conclusion to the game so everyone can start again. That's not being spikey, that's just having an actual finisher.
I usually try to include one or two of them in every EDH deck I play. I think of it as my "this game has gone on for two and a half hours and really needs to be over now" button. I've got Worldslayer in my artifact deck, Rise of the Dark Realms in my mono-black, Laboratory Maniac in my self-mill, and some infinite combos in my changeling deck.
I am more on this page. I find the best way to do this is to pick an extremely specific theme and build around it, which keeps your build from getting overly oppressive. I don't mean a theme like Vampire Tribal or lands. I mean even more specific than that. I'm a real fan of the white bordered only EDH decks. I've got a changeling deck that every card is either a land, changeling, or a card that requires I say a creature type out loud. It's easily my favorite deck that I own and is pretty balanced.
My favorite deck theme that I've ever seen is my friends Sek'Kuar. He called it his WWE themed deck. Every card had to have art where the characters had both hands raised, like disciple of bolas and stuff. Deck was hilarious to look through.
The Ur-Dragon (WUBRG) - Changeling Combo Tribal
Chromium (WUB) - Artifact Beats
Progenitus (WUBRG) - Dredge
Damia, Sage of Stone (GBU) - Elf-storm Tendrils
My Cube Unpowered
My Peasant-ish/Tribal-ish Cube
But as someone pointed out before, some people are never happy with what you play, and at a certain point you don't have to care as long as you don't get kicked out of every playgroup lol.
BUG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Sultai Good Stuff
GWU Derevi, Kind Tactician (no stax)
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Spellslinger
URG Animorph Sneakster
BR Mogis Hates Everyone
BG Hapatra and the Sneks
R Zada, Jankstorm