I was playing a game last night, and one of the players played Primeval Titan. He wasn't deliberately cheating, his deck had been built for 1v1 competitive commander, and he had not reviewed the ban list for multiplayer. I pointed out that Primeval Titan was banned, and a small discussion ensued, resulting in him setting Primetime and rethinking his turn entirely.
It wasn't just that he was playing a banned card, but that it was a banned card that was also clearly best-in-slot, and he tutored for it, and using it he was planning to tutor Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage on turn 4. We still ended up facing that exact combo, but some turns later.
What would you guys have done? What do you think is the proper way to deal with a banned card showing up in a game innocently?
I'm not sure I even agree that Primeval Titan deserves to be banned at this stage, it's not a game-destroying offender like Sylvan Primordial or Sundering Titan (which came up in our discussion) but the fact remains that it is banned.
I agree with you that I really do not believe Prime time should be banned so I am trying to think of a more egregious offender from the list being innocently played instead and wondering how I would react to that. As far as your example I think it was handled well, they didn't know so letting them redo their tun seems very fair to all involved. I would even potentially go as far with prime time and just let them play it. The combo they were getting was good, but by no means should be game ending in a multiplayer scenario.
So I would say you handled it the proper way. They didn't know so just treating the card as a basic land or something for the rest of the game and redoing one's turn seems a very fair solution. The same would go for sundering titan or any of the more unfair and mean cards. I would just be a lot less likely to allow them to play as is, unlike how I am with prime time.
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Play it out
You have sol ring in your deck, Primeval Titan player doesn't if they are using 1v1 rules.
Obviously it is not very ideal, but it is better than stopping the game.
1. ask beforehand.
1.1. If they think it's cool, it's cool.
1.2. If they aren't ok with it, then swap it with whatever.
2. If you forget and then it comes up in game, ask if it's ok.
2.1. If they say it's cool, it's cool (plus, bonus points for testing to see if it's really as broken as the RC claims it to be)
2.2. If they aren't ok, treat it as a card with no card types or names, and with "cycling 2" on it. I mean, i DID mess it up, and cycling 2 is a harsh enough punishment to offset that.
2.2.1. If they aren't even ok with that (the cycling 'fix'), then do whatever they think is fine, and then try hard to avoid playing with those people.
Honestly, I think players who are massive sticklers to the RC-enforced rules in a 'protected' play group (i.e. not in a public-sphere game) kinda are misguided in that they wanna play the game that the RC enforces for public, 'first-contact' type games. It's great that they exist, but for playgroups who've played insularly for a while, it's probably fine to evolve themselves.
I've seen public play where people just say it's fine to remove the card from the deck from hand, then draw a replacement card. I've also seen folks get very uppity about it and just make them exile the card with no replacement. Personally, unless there's something major on the line, i don't think most people should really care too much - it's a casual game, for funsies.
I would let them play the card that game and ask them to replace the card next game. It was a mistake and that is fine. They were not intentionally using a banned card. (Well they were, but did not know it was banned)
I have done the same thing with a guy who cast a time walk, was kinda of angered he had a time walk in the first place, but let him know it was banned.
Sweinefett, I disagree with your proposal towards the RC enforcing their rules. They say on the site that it is suggested not to play with those cards. However, having a ban list is a smart move. It is small (and it also removes all ante and un cards)
It regulates some cards that can turn the game to be less fun.
I've always played it as RFG it and draw a new card. Simple mistake.
Could see that becoming more difficult if it was tutored for, or it was a cornerstone of their deck or whatever, but usually it's been a less experienced player who just didn't realize, and their deck isn't super tuned or tutor heavy or anything.
Generally-speaking I'd probably be ok playing vs a 1v1 decklist if I knew in advance. Sacrificing all the good fast mana is a pretty high cost to pay for prime time. If they said it was totally critical to their gameplan I'd probably just let them have it for that game at least. That combo in particular is relatively tame, though - I might get a bit saltier if someone vamp tutored for a channel so they could play multiple eldrazi titans on turn 2...I'd probably either just start a new game or tell them they have to RFG-cycle it or something. That would be a very unlikely scenario, though, I think if you're doing that it's probably because you're a bastard.
We have had a player unknowingly play Shalai, Voice of Plenty in his boros Gisela deck. When it was pointed out he couldn't because of rules, he had two options: reset, discard the card and draw a card OR play Shalai as a vanilla 3/4. He chose the last option. Good sportsmanship to me.
In case of Primeval Titan i would probably have suggested something similar so i think you guys handled the situation just fine.
At our casual kitchentable we play at, not everyone knows everything and sometimes people from other metas join with somewhat different rules and banlists. That's fine.
We usually establish rules beforehand to make sure the games move in a timely fashion.
Honestly, if everyone is fine with it - unban it for the day. My wife has Rofellos in her elf deck, she announces it at the start and then people get to decide if the card is that bad. If anyone says nay, she just treats it like a forest - the card is good but by no means backbreaking (as a commander I could see it). The beauty of a casual formaat is that the rules are really up to the group - alter them as you wish. Me and some friends even did banless edh for a while and nothing too bad happened.
Any time we have a banned card pop up, we just have them exile it and draw a card. If he tutored for it but it wasn't a tutor that reveals the card, maybe you just restart the game with legal decks - you said he planned to use it on turn four to tutor Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage, so I assume you were on turn two or three. No big deal to restart.
If it were a topdeck, like someone else mentioned I'd suggest exiling it and drawing a replacement. I've had that exact scenario happen in a game before.
Since it was a tutor, and if it were still his same turn, let him tutor for something else. Otherwise it it's some turns later and the boardstate has changed, giving a free tutor to replace a card that can't be verified if it were the target of the prior tutor - could be game breaking. So in that case it's a judgement call..
Sweinefett, I disagree with your proposal towards the RC enforcing their rules. They say on the site that it is suggested not to play with those cards. However, having a ban list is a smart move. It is small (and it also removes all ante and un cards)
It regulates some cards that can turn the game to be less fun.
It's not really a proposal as such i said previously; more that the banlist's purpose in my eyes is to allow everyone to have a level 'starting field' when meeting others in public gaming areas (i.e. at a convention, local game shop). That's great that such a thing exists, don't get me wrong; it's great that before anyone even sits down to sling some cardboard at each other, that there is something that ties the collective accepted rules together.
What I am questioning are those people who have a steady playgroup (as in the actual playgroup itself tends to only play within that group), still being sticklers to the RC's suggestions. The RC caters to the EDH population that's generally newer to the game and/or people with no steady playgroup, which is fine, but steady playgroups are probably responsible enough to make their own house-rules to make the game better for them. I play with painter's servant, and no one in my group cares. I'm sure there are playgroups where things like back to basics, blood moon and armageddon are banned. Each to their own, right?
And to be honest, many of the cards on the banlist isn't all that bad; they're more inertia from back in the day.
But back onto the subject at hand, i'm just curious; if someone does end up playing against you with a banned card, would it matter at all to you whether or not the card created interesting/non-interesting, broken/not-broken plays? as in if someone whipped out primetime against you, and it didn't feel like it made the game un-fun, would you re-assess how you'd see those cards?
I had a similar case last week, where my opponent played a tolarian academy. I knew about the ban but only realized it after some turns later, so I simply pointed it out and let him keep it and finish the game. He wasn't doing anything broken with it anyway, so I guess everyone was ok with the decision.
Also had this recently with a friend using Prophet of Kruphix in a Kaseto snake tribal deck. We just played through it since it wasn't used brokenly. My friend knows it's on the banlist now, but we probably still wouldn't mind too much if it popped up again, at least with that deck.
But for other situations where it could be problematic I like both the "treat it as a land" and the "RFG (not just exile) and draw" options.
I've been in similar situations before. We sort of just went by popular vote - let the guy know Prime Time is banned, he says 'óh sorry, haven't played in a while'. Fine, what does the table think? Let the table decide. Personally I was ok with it at the time, as it was hardcast into a relatively tame environment. Had he tutored for it I'd have suggested maybe letting the Prime Time be a proxy for a last minute legal inclusion to the deck. In this scenario, we played through, no dramas, old player returning learned something new about the banlist and returned to the game with no saltiness.
I feel it's important to uphold the rules, but also not to be a dick about the rules too.
In my case, the whole situation was a little more tense.
My group consist of at least 4 experienced magic player. But only one guy and I have played commander for a longer time. So one of the less experienced commander player in the group played Sylvan Primordial. I pointed out that the card was banned in commander. I think it was in a normal and polite way. I wasn't shouting, laughing, angry or pointing with a finger on him. The reaction was laughable. He stated that it can't be banned because the card wasn't that good. So the other 2 looked it up and obviously they confirmed what was already said. The table decided to play through. He than constantly flamed the ban list through the whole game. Even making stupid jokes after playing some spells like: "I play [spell name] oh I am sure this is illegal/banned", staring at me and so on. I still don't know what he expect. 7 Mana for 6/8 + setting 3 players behind while gaining access to 3 forest. How is this 'not so good'. Well I think he removed the Primodial from his deck.
I had a similar thing the other day. Had all my rocks stolen by a treasure nabber which the player then cast multiple copies of tinker and sacked them all away.
That was a solid case of "that card's banned dude, sorry but you can't sac the rocks" and we went on with the game.
He genuinely didn't know tinker was on the list and was cool with it.
I think as long as the table aren't rude about it and as long as all players don't mind then do whatever but I think if even one player objects, then the banned cast should be set aside and draw a replacement if it was top decked or tutor if it was tutored.
I think the golden rule in this situation is to just be a reasonable human being!
A long time ago, a friend of mine played Trade Secrets in a couple of games in his deck. Not sure if it was banned back then, but even though it resulted in some really ridiculous stuff, we all had fun with it. I'm actually kind of sad it's banned, even if it's ridiculous. As far as etiquette goes, it was never a problem for us.
As far as cards I've played myself that have been banned: Prophet of Kruphix - understandably, this thing warped my entire meta until it was banned, everyone used it in their UG decks and it was always oppressively strong. Sylvan Primordial - I don't think this card is that bad, honestly. It never warped my metagame. Had to cut it from a deck of mine when it was banned a long time ago, but it's no big loss.
I also think Primeval Titan is fine.
Tolarian Academy could also be fine if they remade it to say something like 'Add U for each artifact creature you control'. Still able to do strong stuff and you could get it to make you a big pile of mana under the right conditions like combining it with Smothering Tithe or Myr Battlesphere just like Serra's Sanctum or Gaea's Cradle can do similar things with similar cards. I figure a redone card like that could be released no problem if alongside a couple new cheap instant-speed land destruction spells, something that says 'Exile target nonbasic land or artifact, then exile this card' for only W.
It wasn't just that he was playing a banned card, but that it was a banned card that was also clearly best-in-slot, and he tutored for it, and using it he was planning to tutor Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage on turn 4. We still ended up facing that exact combo, but some turns later.
What would you guys have done? What do you think is the proper way to deal with a banned card showing up in a game innocently?
I'm not sure I even agree that Primeval Titan deserves to be banned at this stage, it's not a game-destroying offender like Sylvan Primordial or Sundering Titan (which came up in our discussion) but the fact remains that it is banned.
So I would say you handled it the proper way. They didn't know so just treating the card as a basic land or something for the rest of the game and redoing one's turn seems a very fair solution. The same would go for sundering titan or any of the more unfair and mean cards. I would just be a lot less likely to allow them to play as is, unlike how I am with prime time.
UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control
UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre
1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock
UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance
UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki
BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service
UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl
BG Meren's grinder
You have sol ring in your deck, Primeval Titan player doesn't if they are using 1v1 rules.
Obviously it is not very ideal, but it is better than stopping the game.
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1. ask beforehand.
1.1. If they think it's cool, it's cool.
1.2. If they aren't ok with it, then swap it with whatever.
2. If you forget and then it comes up in game, ask if it's ok.
2.1. If they say it's cool, it's cool (plus, bonus points for testing to see if it's really as broken as the RC claims it to be)
2.2. If they aren't ok, treat it as a card with no card types or names, and with "cycling 2" on it. I mean, i DID mess it up, and cycling 2 is a harsh enough punishment to offset that.
2.2.1. If they aren't even ok with that (the cycling 'fix'), then do whatever they think is fine, and then try hard to avoid playing with those people.
Honestly, I think players who are massive sticklers to the RC-enforced rules in a 'protected' play group (i.e. not in a public-sphere game) kinda are misguided in that they wanna play the game that the RC enforces for public, 'first-contact' type games. It's great that they exist, but for playgroups who've played insularly for a while, it's probably fine to evolve themselves.
I've seen public play where people just say it's fine to remove the card from the deck from hand, then draw a replacement card. I've also seen folks get very uppity about it and just make them exile the card with no replacement. Personally, unless there's something major on the line, i don't think most people should really care too much - it's a casual game, for funsies.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I have done the same thing with a guy who cast a time walk, was kinda of angered he had a time walk in the first place, but let him know it was banned.
Sweinefett, I disagree with your proposal towards the RC enforcing their rules. They say on the site that it is suggested not to play with those cards. However, having a ban list is a smart move. It is small (and it also removes all ante and un cards)
It regulates some cards that can turn the game to be less fun.
Could see that becoming more difficult if it was tutored for, or it was a cornerstone of their deck or whatever, but usually it's been a less experienced player who just didn't realize, and their deck isn't super tuned or tutor heavy or anything.
Generally-speaking I'd probably be ok playing vs a 1v1 decklist if I knew in advance. Sacrificing all the good fast mana is a pretty high cost to pay for prime time. If they said it was totally critical to their gameplan I'd probably just let them have it for that game at least. That combo in particular is relatively tame, though - I might get a bit saltier if someone vamp tutored for a channel so they could play multiple eldrazi titans on turn 2...I'd probably either just start a new game or tell them they have to RFG-cycle it or something. That would be a very unlikely scenario, though, I think if you're doing that it's probably because you're a bastard.
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In case of Primeval Titan i would probably have suggested something similar so i think you guys handled the situation just fine.
At our casual kitchentable we play at, not everyone knows everything and sometimes people from other metas join with somewhat different rules and banlists. That's fine.
We usually establish rules beforehand to make sure the games move in a timely fashion.
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If it were a topdeck, like someone else mentioned I'd suggest exiling it and drawing a replacement. I've had that exact scenario happen in a game before.
Since it was a tutor, and if it were still his same turn, let him tutor for something else. Otherwise it it's some turns later and the boardstate has changed, giving a free tutor to replace a card that can't be verified if it were the target of the prior tutor - could be game breaking. So in that case it's a judgement call..
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It's not really a proposal as such i said previously; more that the banlist's purpose in my eyes is to allow everyone to have a level 'starting field' when meeting others in public gaming areas (i.e. at a convention, local game shop). That's great that such a thing exists, don't get me wrong; it's great that before anyone even sits down to sling some cardboard at each other, that there is something that ties the collective accepted rules together.
What I am questioning are those people who have a steady playgroup (as in the actual playgroup itself tends to only play within that group), still being sticklers to the RC's suggestions. The RC caters to the EDH population that's generally newer to the game and/or people with no steady playgroup, which is fine, but steady playgroups are probably responsible enough to make their own house-rules to make the game better for them. I play with painter's servant, and no one in my group cares. I'm sure there are playgroups where things like back to basics, blood moon and armageddon are banned. Each to their own, right?
And to be honest, many of the cards on the banlist isn't all that bad; they're more inertia from back in the day.
But back onto the subject at hand, i'm just curious; if someone does end up playing against you with a banned card, would it matter at all to you whether or not the card created interesting/non-interesting, broken/not-broken plays? as in if someone whipped out primetime against you, and it didn't feel like it made the game un-fun, would you re-assess how you'd see those cards?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
But for other situations where it could be problematic I like both the "treat it as a land" and the "RFG (not just exile) and draw" options.
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I feel it's important to uphold the rules, but also not to be a dick about the rules too.
My group consist of at least 4 experienced magic player. But only one guy and I have played commander for a longer time. So one of the less experienced commander player in the group played Sylvan Primordial. I pointed out that the card was banned in commander. I think it was in a normal and polite way. I wasn't shouting, laughing, angry or pointing with a finger on him. The reaction was laughable. He stated that it can't be banned because the card wasn't that good. So the other 2 looked it up and obviously they confirmed what was already said. The table decided to play through. He than constantly flamed the ban list through the whole game. Even making stupid jokes after playing some spells like: "I play [spell name] oh I am sure this is illegal/banned", staring at me and so on. I still don't know what he expect. 7 Mana for 6/8 + setting 3 players behind while gaining access to 3 forest. How is this 'not so good'. Well I think he removed the Primodial from his deck.
That was a solid case of "that card's banned dude, sorry but you can't sac the rocks" and we went on with the game.
He genuinely didn't know tinker was on the list and was cool with it.
I think as long as the table aren't rude about it and as long as all players don't mind then do whatever but I think if even one player objects, then the banned cast should be set aside and draw a replacement if it was top decked or tutor if it was tutored.
I think the golden rule in this situation is to just be a reasonable human being!
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As far as cards I've played myself that have been banned:
Prophet of Kruphix - understandably, this thing warped my entire meta until it was banned, everyone used it in their UG decks and it was always oppressively strong.
Sylvan Primordial - I don't think this card is that bad, honestly. It never warped my metagame. Had to cut it from a deck of mine when it was banned a long time ago, but it's no big loss.
I also think Primeval Titan is fine.
Tolarian Academy could also be fine if they remade it to say something like 'Add U for each artifact creature you control'. Still able to do strong stuff and you could get it to make you a big pile of mana under the right conditions like combining it with Smothering Tithe or Myr Battlesphere just like Serra's Sanctum or Gaea's Cradle can do similar things with similar cards. I figure a redone card like that could be released no problem if alongside a couple new cheap instant-speed land destruction spells, something that says 'Exile target nonbasic land or artifact, then exile this card' for only W.