You need I finite Mana and a sac outlet. Sac the changeling the o altar produce.mana and replay him. Laghliss nts you a dragon and reaper king pops something. Sac and repeat.
You need I finite Mana and a sac outlet. Sac the changeling the o altar produce.mana and replay him. Laghliss nts you a dragon and reaper king pops something. Sac and repeat.
You need I finite Mana and a sac outlet. Sac the changeling the o altar produce.mana and replay him. Laghliss nts you a dragon and reaper king pops something. Sac and repeat.
The Haunt of Hightower gets bigger every time a card is put into your opponent's graveyard from anywhere. That's right, from anywhere. Creature dies? +1/+1. Discard or mill? +1/+1. Opponent plays Ponder? +1/+1. Opponent plays Pull from Eternity on themselves? +2/+2. This is the way I always wished Patron of the Nezumi would trigger, since the rats were like low maximum hand size discard spell stuff, but now I'm getting distracted. The point is, The Haunt can get very very big if your opponents don't kill it, it might even have like... uhhh... 21 power? Who knows!
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The Haunt of Hightower gets bigger every time a card is put into your opponent's graveyard from anywhere. That's right, from anywhere. Creature dies? +1/+1. Discard or mill? +1/+1. Opponent plays Ponder? +1/+1. Opponent plays Pull from Eternity on themselves? +2/+2. This is the way I always wished Patron of the Nezumi would trigger, since the rats were like low maximum hand size discard spell stuff, but now I'm getting distracted. The point is, The Haunt can get very very big if your opponents don't kill it, it might even have like... uhhh... 21 power? Who knows!
even if you don;t get him big enough to one shot or even 2 shot people, he had lifelink which can come in very handy (Depending on deck and meta of course)
I would play him with equipment for a bit of a voltron style build with non self board wipes.
Liliana Vess (And others) can force some discards, grave pact is also great if you have an outlet, or just down right useful.
really would have been great if it was any yard though.
(also just a tidbit, i still feel Edgar is the better vampire general)
I've played against Haunt a few times, and it seemed like a cool idea. Haunt quickly became archenemy purely on account of people not liking to lose their hands. The one thing I found is that the few decks I played went deep on discard and ran things like Oppression - strong card, but you have to be able to fill your own hand back up or you're dead in the water.
I have a couple of suggestions here, not sure how good they are but let's see.
Dark Deal seems made for alpha striking with this fellow.
You mention in your considerations Vona's Hunger - for what it's worth, it's a strong card. Instant speed board halving is no joke, and city's blessing is super easy to hit in this format. Sudden Spoiling is really strong, too. Split Second makes it excellent.
Hatred could be great here, too. With a lifelinking commander you don't need to worry about running short on resource, and this blows someone out of the game in one fell swoop.
Darksteel Plate could help you keep your commander in the game.
Sangromancer seems made to be in this deck. Keeps you alive purely by existing on the battlefield, because things are going to die. Plus it's a great, well costed chump blocker
It's a bit of an ancillary consideration, but I wonder if Yahenni, Undying Partisan could do well as a lieutenant here. You're wanting lots of stuff to die, so she would get big quick, and she's a superb chump blocker/ tempo drop/ alpha striker.
Liliana, Heretical Healer could be a nice utility drop. Her +2 once flipped makes your commander big quick, and her reanimation is nice to get back utility critters too. If you can hit her emblem you've won, most likely, but all modes are relevant on her, and she protects herself in the process of transforming.
The other phenomenon I've seen with this guy is running out of momentum mid-game. Once you've got opponents topdecking your discard options are sort of redundant, so it seems like it'd be important to run a lot of pieces to make sure you can take cards from opponents' libraries and battlefield instead.
Geth and Mindcrank are great for that, both of which you run already. How about Altar of Dementia? Seems like a card that could end the game really turn the tides for you in the right place.
You mention in your follow up posts that you're often archenemied. I think with a commander like this that's going to be inevitable - like Nath of the Gilt Leaf or Jhoira of the Ghitu, people are going to try and stop you before you start. It's worth looking at putting some strategies in place to play around this. That's part of why I suggest Yahenni, Undying Partisan for the list. She's strong on her own, has utility, drops early, is a threat, is resilient, and gives you presence outside of your commander. I'd think about what you can do to diversify a little - not too much, mind, just enough to give you options if your main plan is nuked, which it seems like you've been experiencing. Or options to rerail your main plan when it's derailed. Black is pretty good at this too - reanimator is a thing, and it's easy to chuck some things in here that'd go nicely for cheap. Victimize, Bond of Revival, Reanimate, Apprentice Necromancer, Chainer, Dementia Master, there are tons.
The number of opponents that gets one-shot hits are high, but the numbers of games won aren't. The strategy is simple and Haunt can be stopped easily.
I noticed that mass discard puts a bigger target over my face, but incidental discard is okay. So, I cut most of the discard effects, like Liliana Vess, Oppression, Dark Deal and Liliana, Heretical Healer. This was good to mid-late game, where discard isn't really useful if everyone is in topdeck mode and I need an ending game effect, like a removal or unblockable effect.
I'm still not sure about Sangromancer. Sure, it's a great card, but with few discard effects seems a bit underwhelming, and the life gain on creatures dying is okay. Similar on Hatred, very good but seems win-more.
Strange that Dark Deal would cause grief - at least, in a vacuum. It's basically a wheel, and it's totally symmetrical. That seems a little uncool of your meta, I mean you're not playing Nekusar. Oppression and the Lili's I get, they can be pretty griefy, but Deal is a bit different.
Altar of Dementia doesn't need a ton of creatures to put in work. In fact, it probably does better with a few big creatures. I run it in Bruna, the Fading Light, mostly as a sac outlet, but if the board is stalled out I have a few fatties to shred out some libraries. Let's say someone targets your Haunt with say Path to Exile or Control Magic or whatever. You now have an instant speed sac outlet to shred someone's library in response. You might even find it's a deterrent to targeting him, you never know. By the same token, if Haunt gets big on a regular basis, it might be worth considering Miren, the Moaning Well as another way to make the most of Haunt being targeted. Even Ghoulcaller Gisa could be a good way to turn that targetting to your advantage. It really just depends how you want your plan B to go.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan is the ultimate cockroach. She has the ability to survive all but the most harsh of board wipes, so gives you a board presence where Haunt won't survive. Not only that, with every other creature on the board likely to croak it, she stands a good chance of surviving and being huge afterwards. She does do well with some fodder, sure, but that's easy enough to add in. Bitterblossom, as you mention, could do just fine. FWIW, I've just removed Dreadhorde Invasion from my Varina zombie build. It's pretty slow and pretty underwhelming. Bloodghast needs no recommendation obviously, but if you don't have a copy Reassembling Skeleton does admirably for a cheap cost. Easy off-turn mana sink and sac fodder.
Hatred though - like, yeah it's a little win-more, but you're also playing archenemy most games, and you run Whispersilk Cloak, Rogue's Passage and Shizo, Death's Storehouse. Might as well make the most of that, especially when your commander has lifelink, right?
Ultimately, I think you're going to be targetted with your commander, purely because people don't like mill, discard or topdecking. I think there's a couple of ways you can work around that:
1. Water it down, and maybe be less happy with the deck.
2. Embrace the dark side, go 100% and make the most of the window you have, and accept archenemy status.
3. Build in some contingency plans for the hate your meta throws out, expand your range of win conditions, and maybe give yourself a few more windows to success.
Totally up to you how you play it, of course. The suggestions I've made are mostly based on the idea of working with #3, purely because that's what I would do.
Have you considered Painful Quandary? It's incidental discard which you've said gets less hate in your meta, and 5 life is nothing to sniff at if people go for that option instead.
This Ephara, God of the Polis deck is a hatebear deck, as you might tell from the thread title. The thing about hatebears is that sometimes they're backbreaking disruption, sometimes they're vanilla creatures, and sometimes they're just dead to a boardwipe. I can think of no better way of mitigating the floor of these cards than by turning every single one into a cantrip. This is a great example of a general that rather than playing further into the theme itself (like something like Grand Arbiter Augustin or Lavinia, Azorius Renegade would have), it is a support card related to the archetype (hatebears are creatures, some of them have flash) that acts as an engine that ticks up the power level of the whole deck.
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This deck looks great. Moreover, as part of the primer committee and having seen a few comments from other members regarding it being a laborious process and not wanting to add images - this thread is a great example of a well written, concise primer that doesn't rely on flashy images to draw in readers. Really well done (as an aside we try to make it as easy as possible and help people through it, so this comment isn't meant to be shady, just acknowledgement of a really well done job).
I love Ephara as a general, she's just a solid advantage engine. Your deck looks fun, and the few points I had to mention (no Cloudstone Curio?) were pretty much picked up in the Exclusions section. The only nitpicky thing I can suggest is Clever Impersonator vs Phyrexian Metamorph. Totally get if the colour splash is too much or the flexible CMC of metamorph is what makes it preferable, but I've always loved that extra versatility of Impersonator. It's good value. Thalia, Heretic Cathar is kinda cool too - anti-ramp for your opponents and a tempo drop for you, but this list is tight enough I'm not sure what to suggest you cut.
As to what to remove for the new releases....uhhh...thinking hard...how do you find Boreas Charger? I used to run it in mono Bruna, but it wasn't often relevant, purely because my land drops were always on point and I often ramp ahead of the curve. Strange to say for mono white, I've put a lot of work into it and the extra just turned out to be surplus to requirement. I guess Supreme Verdict I like less than Austere Command, especially in this deck, purely because it sets your win condition back to totally wipe, and Austere is just so flexible. That being said, if you do add Winds of Abandon, Boreas Charger becomes super ramp, so maybe...Silver Myr is the only other creature in your list that stands out as maybe sub par.
Also, kudos for making a deck that looks fun to both play and play against, that can't be easy with hatebears.
I think the deck basically has room for one derpy combo enabler at least for me and that's Blasting station right now but it could easily be curio again. Curio's issue mosty is the same as skullclamp, it entices you to derp around and not build your board state, but it is *so dang good* at winning the game from a few positions. I am not really sure station is correct.
Phyrexian Metamorph can be tutored for with enlightened tutor and costs less, that's really the main reason for it - just hardcore efficiency. I'm honestly not sure if it's better or worse than Spark Double or clever impersonator or even stunt double. I think any of those would be fine.
I could never quite figure out what to cut for Thalia -- I own a playset of the promos and a normal foil set aside for when I can make up my mind or the meta is right. I will say making lands enter tapped is frigging savage. I've been on the receiving end a few times.
Boreas charger is kind of in a slot I have dubbed the "Experimental big mana slot" - used to be As Foretold. It is nice to have a card that can really catch you up on mana in a hurry (and blinking charger 3-4 times can really get you there, and also thin the heck out of your deck). That said, I still have never drawn it despite it being in for a while I expect it will be quite a bit better with Soulherder.
silver Myr oddly enough has always been great for me. Having too many mana creatures is pretty bad, but just having one keeps the creature density high enough while also keeping the critical # of turn 3 Ephara enablers. I tried having both myrs for a while and I tended to draw them too often and rely on them. It is distinctly possible that this card is worse than say Ponder or even Chrome Mox or Fellwar Stone. I think I could be convinced on that, but so far I think going below 30 creatures and 10 Turn 2 ephara enablers is probably wrong. So it's possible I could afford to shave it for something else - since adding Wayfarer and Ancient Tomb and Mana crypt it changed the numbers
Supreme Verdict is more about coming from behind than ahead. The can't be countered clause is the big driver. The deck doesn't play enough countermagic to be able to fight stack wars, so being uncounterable is relevant. I think it's debatable depending on a meta for sure.
A thing to note about sweepers though is that it can sometimes be right to just sweep while you're ahead because the deck rebuilds better than most. The whole Reveillark nonsense gets really oppressive sometimes. I've had games where I have like: Lark, Karmic Guide, Phantasmal Image, Metamorph out, and what do you even do there? I wind up with 2 reveillarks, 2 guides, and 2 other creatures from my bin after I sweep.
For the record, turn 3 ephara enablers are (mostly):
I think the deck basically has room for one derpy combo enabler at least for me and that's Blasting station right now but it could easily be curio again. Curio's issue mosty is the same as skullclamp, it entices you to derp around and not build your board state, but it is *so dang good* at winning the game from a few positions. I am not really sure station is correct.
Curio is thirsty. You need a ton of mana to make the most of it in all fairness, so running it optimally you probably want some Peregrine Drake or Palinchron grossness to ensure maximum mana availability. Station is definitely a leaner package, and for that reason alone I can see why it's superior.
Boreas charger is kind of in a slot I have dubbed the "Experimental big mana slot" - used to be As Foretold. It is nice to have a card that can really catch you up on mana in a hurry (and blinking charger 3-4 times can really get you there, and also thin the heck out of your deck). That said, I still have never drawn it despite it being in for a while Smile I expect it will be quite a bit better with Soulherder.
I'm just always skeptical of these sort of effects, is all. They're never going to get you ahead on lands, they'll only draw you even, and a lot of the time they just don't trigger. I also run Knight of the White Orchid in Bruna, and it's a conditional card, tbh. Mostly it's there for a 2-drop with a save my ass ramp attached - that and it can grab any Plains and I can resurrect it easily. It's only hanging in there by a thread though, to be fair. I dunno, it just seems like a trigger that only goes off in niche situations, and doesn't really do enough to justify inclusion.
Supreme Verdict is more about coming from behind than ahead. The can't be countered clause is the big driver. The deck doesn't play enough countermagic to be able to fight stack wars, so being uncounterable is relevant. I think it's debatable depending on a meta for sure.
This makes sense. Being a definitive, authoritative nope is important when you're behind.
Also I attached some pics of the pages of my binder reserved for currently on my mind ephara nonsense
Lend me your folder sometime? There's some good stuff in here, but probably nothing that really MUST be in the deck. I'll give a shout out to Emeria Shepherd; she's my non-legendary lieutenant in Bruna, and she makes your boardstate seriously resilient. Favourite plays are Sword of the Animist on her, or spam Solemn Simulacrum with a sac outlet. That being said, she definitely shines best in mono white, so she may not put in the work here. There's probably a case to be made for Restoration Angel or Sakashima's Student, but neither one seems like a 100% lock.
It's swarmpires. It swarms you, but with vampires. And then contaminates you, with contamination. Swarmpires contamination. I don't know how many points I give this title, but I don't think it matters. The goal here is quite explicitly to lock your opponents out of non-black mana with Contamination and never have to sacrifice the enchantment because Edgar gives you an unstoppable river of 1/1 sac fodder. It's an aggressive vampire tribal shell that by virtue of its design gets to pretty freely play a card that's like 4 copies of Iona, Shield of Emeria for 3 mana.
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I've played a little Edgar, and he's about as close to an early aggro commander as exists right now. This list looks reasonably familiar in that you're wanting to spam as many low costed vampires as you can as early as you can. The difference between this list and mine is probably a few grand in land base, tutors and Purphoros. I like the contamination idea, it's a pretty cool way to make sure Edgar is less of the glass cannon he is during the mid-late game.
I don't really have much in the way of recommendations, purely because this deck is almost entirely a superior version of mine. However, there's a couple of draw options that have done really well for me: Ad Nauseam and Minion's Murmurs. Both dig super deep, and the life loss from AN is mitigated by a bargain basement CMC for most of our critters.
There's not really much else I can suggest, but I'm interested as to the absence of things like Blood Artist, Cruel Celebrant, Vindictive Vampire et al. The latter I can understand for being a little pricey, but the first two are pretty great.
Been waiting for one of my shells to come up, but still not Kaalia, haha. That ought to be the riot when it comes around. Anyway, it's nice seeing this up when I'm starting my vacation.
I've played a little Edgar, and he's about as close to an early aggro commander as exists right now. This list looks reasonably familiar in that you're wanting to spam as many low costed vampires as you can as early as you can. The difference between this list and mine is probably a few grand in land base, tutors and Purphoros. I like the contamination idea, it's a pretty cool way to make sure Edgar is less of the glass cannon he is during the mid-late game.
I don't really have much in the way of recommendations, purely because this deck is almost entirely a superior version of mine. However, there's a couple of draw options that have done really well for me: Ad Nauseam and Minion's Murmurs. Both dig super deep, and the life loss from AN is mitigated by a bargain basement CMC for most of our critters.
There's not really much else I can suggest, but I'm interested as to the absence of things like Blood Artist, Cruel Celebrant, Vindictive Vampire et al. The latter I can understand for being a little pricey, but the first two are pretty great.
A couple notes here, that I really should be playing Ad Naus but at the same time, what am I drawing into? There's only so much need for more *****pire 1 drops in-hand and holding excess cards is not something the deck particularly cares about (I'm not running Reliquary Tower for Ad Naus smh). So, like, it's this awkward spot where it's good enough for sure but it's not really helping me where it would help, say, a combo deck to be able to go off. Does that make sense?
FWIW, yes, the Blood Celebrant totally would get a spot in the deck. It's no contest. I believe Blood Artist is a bit more suspect at the two drop with 0 power and that it only targets one player. It's likely still good enough as it still triggers Edgar, Shared Animosity, still sacs to Indulgent Aristocrat and still gets pumped by Legion Lieutenant. But, you know, I don't consider it an open-and-shut case. The four drop vampire competes with Purphoros and is a bit slower so I don't believe I would play it. But I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it if they were on more budget than my collection has been blessed with over the years. Speaking of budget, the last iteration I played had The Abyss in it. So, have fun getting a hold of one of those for a price less than one of your vital organs lmao. It was good at least, but like, maybe don't spend on a card that could be a mortgage payment though.
Lastly, if you don't like linear decks, this is not going to be a good deck for you. It literally does one thing, and while it does do that one thing very, very well, you will get bored of it and people will ask if you have a "real deck". Myself, I've actually stopped playing it, but I will keep the resource posted indefinitely because, I think, it's valuable to the community to have access to an optimized list as Edgar is a very popular commander.
Whoops. I misread your Blood Celebrant as the newer Cruel Celebrant from War of the Spark. Hmm, I'm not sure I'd play the former but I also don't need the fixing with that manabase. YMMV.
edit: It's also not a vampire, so nope, I can say I wouldn't play it.
A couple notes here, that I really should be playing Ad Naus but at the same time, what am I drawing into? There's only so much need for more *****pire 1 drops in-hand and holding excess cards is not something the deck particularly cares about (I'm not running Reliquary Tower for Ad Naus smh). So, like, it's this awkward spot where it's good enough for sure but it's not really helping me where it would help, say, a combo deck to be able to go off. Does that make sense?
Yeah, I totally get this (I feel the same way about Reliquary Tower FWIW). I use my draw to refill to 7 when I've run through a hand of weenies, or to draw into some combat modifiers. You have a few more tricks to roll with in Impact Tremors and Purph, so there's probably a little less pressure in that respect to keep a full grip. It's probably not the most busted use for Ad Nauseam, but it's also the most reasonable place for it in the format. I can totally understand why you don't run it.
FWIW, yes, the Blood Celebrant totally would get a spot in the deck. It's no contest. I believe Blood Artist is a bit more suspect at the two drop with 0 power and that it only targets one player. It's likely still good enough as it still triggers Edgar, Shared Animosity, still sacs to Indulgent Aristocrat and still gets pumped by Legion Lieutenant. But, you know, I don't consider it an open-and-shut case. The four drop vampire competes with Purphoros and is a bit slower so I don't believe I would play it. But I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it if they were on more budget than my collection has been blessed with over the years. Speaking of budget, the last iteration I played had The Abyss in it. So, have fun getting a hold of one of those for a price less than one of your vital organs lmao. It was good at least, but like, maybe don't spend on a card that could be a mortgage payment though.
Yeah, the higher cost cards here are great but not 100% necessary. For the most part, it's a remarkably budget friendly build. You could build an Edgar weenies deck easily for less than $80-100, I'd say. You might miss some of the more efficient draw, your control pieces and finishers, but it'd still do well enough.
Whoops. I misread your Blood Celebrant as the newer Cruel Celebrant from War of the Spark. Hmm, I'm not sure I'd play the former but I also don't need the fixing with that manabase. YMMV.
edit: It's also not a vampire, so nope, I can say I wouldn't play it.
Lastly, if you don't like linear decks, this is not going to be a good deck for you. It literally does one thing, and while it does do that one thing very, very well, you will get bored of it and people will ask if you have a "real deck". Myself, I've actually stopped playing it, but I will keep the resource posted indefinitely because, I think, it's valuable to the community to have access to an optimized list as Edgar is a very popular commander.
Agree totally. Edgar weenies is a strong build, but it does really only have one trick in the bag, so if having variation is important this isn't the deck for it. I still have mine together, purely because sometimes it's nice to play a deck that runs this quick, and it's mostly super easy and cheap to grab stuff for, but I don't often play it either - it's good, but I prefer decks with a bit of variation. Still, it's a lesson in early tempo and efficiency, and that's not nothing.
Taking it slow for a moment, this Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck is not in a hurry. With Karador, your graveyard is like a second hand. With sac outlets, your board is like a second graveyard. Hand to board to grave to board, gaining a little bit of ground every step of the way. No hyper-combo finish, just enough answers to recur to keep the game going for as long as it takes to shove opponents in the grave that couldn't hold Karador's creatures.
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Hey, I got a nod in this one! Thanks WizardMN Thread looks great, and would easily hit primer status should you wish to in the future, either here or in the promised land.
I've looked at building Karador in the past, but he's damn hard to track down these days. This looks like a lot of fun to play. As we've noted from my previous deck discussions, I do love a grindy deck that uses the yard, so this would be one I would enjoy playing. For now, I don't really have any suggestions, other than that I really do love a deck that uses strong cards without giving in to infinite combos. Fine if you want to, but it's not my jam and I just won't*.
*tStorm's Zedruu, and by extension my budget bastardised version get a pass because you've never seen combo so janky or convoluted.
For now, I don't really have any suggestions, other than that I really do love a deck that uses strong cards without giving in to infinite combos. Fine if you want to, but it's not my jam and I just won't*.
I like that about this general too. He can be a combo general if you want him to be (and a number of people want him to be) but he also allows for just straight value.
@Dunharrow
I generally prefer Spike Weaver as my fog of choice. It doesn't work as well as Spore Frog with the graveyard interaction, but being able to fog for the entire turn cycle is really good. And, False Prophet can clean things up when I need it to.
Yosei is more of a lock piece and I don't run it simply because I don't like that type of card. Saffi and 'Lark are decent but not really ones I want to include. I did have Reveillark at one time and didn't like it that much as I didn't feel the value I got out of it was worth it. I can't remember if I have ever had Deathmantle as I know I have played it in other decks.
I know the Wayfinder was mentioned in the thread and I am kind of on board with that. It fuels Karador and ensures I hit my land drop. I never felt it was that good, but it is certainly one I am open to trying at some point though. And it wouldn't be the first time I underestimated a card.
Chord and Life from the Loam are interesting mentions as they are ones I have legitimately thought of including in the past. Chord didn't make the cut because my entire game plan, good or bad, is to not have a big board state (and to not let anyone else have one). While it can get me some silver bullets, the only time I can usually Convoke for anything is when I am already in a winning position. I prefer Protean Hulk for my tutor.
I actually had a game probably around a year ago now (where does the time go?) where I Entombed to get a Life from the Loam before I realized I didn't have one (I has thinking of a different deck where I did have it). Ultimately, I never included it and I don't really know why. I am not sure I really need it but it does have some good synergies with the deck.
I had built this deck more or less from the ground up. As I mentioned, I started with some Doran build since I had never played EDH before and I quickly changed it to what it is now. As I was building it, I had never heard of EDHRec or even MTG Salvation so I was kind of on my own. My cousin was the big driver is some early decisions and I realized I liked how it played. So, I can definitely see where my list would be outside the norm but it has worked well for me in the past. As my thread indicates, it hasn't been working as well lately, but I am trying to tighten it up and tune it more and I think I am getting it back to where I want it
Something I noticed about playing Spore Frog in gitrog is that the players would team up to make it not work once you got the "lock" in. Spike weaver is much stronger stronghold/karador material against players who will team up on you.
I had stuff like people shooting my frog with a sword of fire and ice someone else let get through happen. Weaver can ***** that off simply by fogging the sword, or being a 3/3, or whatever. Weaver surviving Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is another corner case that has come up for me with Gitrog. I don't really play either anymore since I started jamming a bit more removal, but I definitely did not enjoy Spore Frog as much as I thought.
I also quite like the deck and most of WizardMN's builds - the sensitivities are fairly similar to mine and I think it's in general a good way to play commander. I think I've provided most of my feedback in the thread already, but I will chime in again re: life from the Loam --
IMHO, this card is a durdlefest if you aren't looking to make a crapload of landrops using extra drop cards like Exploration and Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I generally would not bother with it unless you have at least 8-10 cards that benefit from it, which he this build does not - no cycling lands, no exploration azusa wayward swordtooth etc.
The deck is more focused on ramping with ETB and sac creatures, which is justifiable in Karador, so I think Loam is pretty much just a "hit your land drops" card, in which case it's fairly mediocre and also quite mana intensive.
One of the nice and/or frustrating things about Karador is that there's a huge pool of creatures that are all excellent fits, so even Karador lists with similar themes and gameplans can look vastly different. The gets amplified when you start looking at noncreatures, especially because the slots for those are usually more limited.
For this one, some thoughts:
Do you have any trouble activating Mistveil Plains? I'm counting 13 white permanents other than Karador, which is a little light for having two on board. If so or if you don't find it worth activating often anyways, is it worth coming in tapped?
I'm counting 4 sac outlets, the three lands and Greater Good. Even if you're consistently tutoring for the lands, that seems light. If you're trying to avoid combos, something with a mana cost a la Attrition or Evolutionary Leap could be a good one. Related to this, Corpse Dance feels a little underutilized when you have less ability to put a fresh creature on top of the yard or sac the one you've recurred
I've always found Agent of Erebos a touch awkward. It's nice to proactively and repeatedly clear yards, but not being able to respond is painful sometimes. Additionally, you're always a clone away from losing your own yard (especially without numerous sac outlets). Would this be better as Scavenging Ooze or Withered Wretch?
You have almost no artifacts in the list. If you're feeling lightly stax-y, Collector Ouphe, Stony Silence, and Null Rod only turn off Burnished Hart. In my experience, those slow other decks down quite a bit and you have a very grindy list here
Necrotic Sliver has felt very slow to me in recent years. While I have fond memories of it from when I started with the format, it's not a good rate for what it does anymore. You have plenty of instants and a couple other creatures to answer Torpor Orb effects, which is probably its best use at this point
Not specific to your list, but I've liked Underrealm Lich a lot in my own Karador. It's excellent filtering, fills the yard without going all in on it, and is pretty sticky. The Sylvan Library interaction is a lot of fun too
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
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You need I finite Mana and a sac outlet. Sac the changeling the o altar produce.mana and replay him. Laghliss nts you a dragon and reaper king pops something. Sac and repeat.
Reaper King is the "sac outlet", The Ur-Dragon in the command zone makes Universal Automaton free.
Hazzenko: From the Shadows Comes the Haunt of Hightower
The Haunt of Hightower gets bigger every time a card is put into your opponent's graveyard from anywhere. That's right, from anywhere. Creature dies? +1/+1. Discard or mill? +1/+1. Opponent plays Ponder? +1/+1. Opponent plays Pull from Eternity on themselves? +2/+2. This is the way I always wished Patron of the Nezumi would trigger, since the rats were like low maximum hand size discard spell stuff, but now I'm getting distracted. The point is, The Haunt can get very very big if your opponents don't kill it, it might even have like... uhhh... 21 power? Who knows!
even if you don;t get him big enough to one shot or even 2 shot people, he had lifelink which can come in very handy (Depending on deck and meta of course)
I would play him with equipment for a bit of a voltron style build with non self board wipes.
Liliana Vess (And others) can force some discards, grave pact is also great if you have an outlet, or just down right useful.
really would have been great if it was any yard though.
(also just a tidbit, i still feel Edgar is the better vampire general)
I have a couple of suggestions here, not sure how good they are but let's see.
You mention in your follow up posts that you're often archenemied. I think with a commander like this that's going to be inevitable - like Nath of the Gilt Leaf or Jhoira of the Ghitu, people are going to try and stop you before you start. It's worth looking at putting some strategies in place to play around this. That's part of why I suggest Yahenni, Undying Partisan for the list. She's strong on her own, has utility, drops early, is a threat, is resilient, and gives you presence outside of your commander. I'd think about what you can do to diversify a little - not too much, mind, just enough to give you options if your main plan is nuked, which it seems like you've been experiencing. Or options to rerail your main plan when it's derailed. Black is pretty good at this too - reanimator is a thing, and it's easy to chuck some things in here that'd go nicely for cheap. Victimize, Bond of Revival, Reanimate, Apprentice Necromancer, Chainer, Dementia Master, there are tons.
I haven't run these cards in mono black, but I can shed some light on the Ebon Stronghold/Everglades lands from my Nissa build. They kinda just suck, tbh. Crystal Vein is a little different in that you can sac it for 2 immediately. You could always go for things like Dark Ritual, Dark Petition, Culling the Weak, Bubbling Muck, Songs of the Damned, Skull of Ramos, Priest of Yawgmoth (this last one goes nice with Spine of Ish Sah). Sadly, B isn't fantastic at early ramp inherently, so you might need to look at going deeper on mana rocks, or going with burst mana like the above.
Hope all this helps, and I hope it's not too scathing, it's all said with love
I noticed that mass discard puts a bigger target over my face, but incidental discard is okay. So, I cut most of the discard effects, like Liliana Vess, Oppression, Dark Deal and Liliana, Heretical Healer. This was good to mid-late game, where discard isn't really useful if everyone is in topdeck mode and I need an ending game effect, like a removal or unblockable effect.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan and Altar of Dementia seems to need more creatures to be useful. Maybe if I put some constant token generator (Bitterblossom, Dreadhorde Invasion) or recursive creatures (Reassembling Skeleton, Bloodghast) they could be good. With them, Sadistic Hypnotist and Grave Pact become more viable.
I'm still not sure about Sangromancer. Sure, it's a great card, but with few discard effects seems a bit underwhelming, and the life gain on creatures dying is okay. Similar on Hatred, very good but seems win-more.
Hightower | Vial/Thrasios | Mogis | Grenzo | Endrek |
Tatyova|Sisay|Zurgo|Breya|Chisei|Marchesa|Olivia|KaradorPauper | Pauper |
Legacy|4fun|4fun|Modern|Frontier|StandardAltar of Dementia doesn't need a ton of creatures to put in work. In fact, it probably does better with a few big creatures. I run it in Bruna, the Fading Light, mostly as a sac outlet, but if the board is stalled out I have a few fatties to shred out some libraries. Let's say someone targets your Haunt with say Path to Exile or Control Magic or whatever. You now have an instant speed sac outlet to shred someone's library in response. You might even find it's a deterrent to targeting him, you never know. By the same token, if Haunt gets big on a regular basis, it might be worth considering Miren, the Moaning Well as another way to make the most of Haunt being targeted. Even Ghoulcaller Gisa could be a good way to turn that targetting to your advantage. It really just depends how you want your plan B to go.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan is the ultimate cockroach. She has the ability to survive all but the most harsh of board wipes, so gives you a board presence where Haunt won't survive. Not only that, with every other creature on the board likely to croak it, she stands a good chance of surviving and being huge afterwards. She does do well with some fodder, sure, but that's easy enough to add in. Bitterblossom, as you mention, could do just fine. FWIW, I've just removed Dreadhorde Invasion from my Varina zombie build. It's pretty slow and pretty underwhelming. Bloodghast needs no recommendation obviously, but if you don't have a copy Reassembling Skeleton does admirably for a cheap cost. Easy off-turn mana sink and sac fodder.
I get the hesitation around Sangromancer - if you're not using the life for anything in particular there's not a real point in adding it. If you were running Chainer, Dementia Master in the command zone I'd insist but if you're not burning your life total for anything you could ignore that. If it's an area you want to explore there's plenty of options though - Bolas's Citadel, Aetherflux Reservoir, Phyrexian Reclamation, Command the Dreadhorde, Necropotence, Razaketh, the Foulblooded and so forth.
Hatred though - like, yeah it's a little win-more, but you're also playing archenemy most games, and you run Whispersilk Cloak, Rogue's Passage and Shizo, Death's Storehouse. Might as well make the most of that, especially when your commander has lifelink, right?
Ultimately, I think you're going to be targetted with your commander, purely because people don't like mill, discard or topdecking. I think there's a couple of ways you can work around that:
1. Water it down, and maybe be less happy with the deck.
2. Embrace the dark side, go 100% and make the most of the window you have, and accept archenemy status.
3. Build in some contingency plans for the hate your meta throws out, expand your range of win conditions, and maybe give yourself a few more windows to success.
Totally up to you how you play it, of course. The suggestions I've made are mostly based on the idea of working with #3, purely because that's what I would do.
Dragonlover
Lathliss Dragon Queen - All dragons all the time!
Mono-White Mono-Legends
Ruhan of the Fomori
Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer
Storrev, Devkarin Lich
Pokken: Ephara, God of the Polis - Flash Hatebears
This Ephara, God of the Polis deck is a hatebear deck, as you might tell from the thread title. The thing about hatebears is that sometimes they're backbreaking disruption, sometimes they're vanilla creatures, and sometimes they're just dead to a boardwipe. I can think of no better way of mitigating the floor of these cards than by turning every single one into a cantrip. This is a great example of a general that rather than playing further into the theme itself (like something like Grand Arbiter Augustin or Lavinia, Azorius Renegade would have), it is a support card related to the archetype (hatebears are creatures, some of them have flash) that acts as an engine that ticks up the power level of the whole deck.
From the new set, and would love especially to hear unbiased outside thoughts on that
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I love Ephara as a general, she's just a solid advantage engine. Your deck looks fun, and the few points I had to mention (no Cloudstone Curio?) were pretty much picked up in the Exclusions section. The only nitpicky thing I can suggest is Clever Impersonator vs Phyrexian Metamorph. Totally get if the colour splash is too much or the flexible CMC of metamorph is what makes it preferable, but I've always loved that extra versatility of Impersonator. It's good value. Thalia, Heretic Cathar is kinda cool too - anti-ramp for your opponents and a tempo drop for you, but this list is tight enough I'm not sure what to suggest you cut.
As to what to remove for the new releases....uhhh...thinking hard...how do you find Boreas Charger? I used to run it in mono Bruna, but it wasn't often relevant, purely because my land drops were always on point and I often ramp ahead of the curve. Strange to say for mono white, I've put a lot of work into it and the extra just turned out to be surplus to requirement. I guess Supreme Verdict I like less than Austere Command, especially in this deck, purely because it sets your win condition back to totally wipe, and Austere is just so flexible. That being said, if you do add Winds of Abandon, Boreas Charger becomes super ramp, so maybe...Silver Myr is the only other creature in your list that stands out as maybe sub par.
Also, kudos for making a deck that looks fun to both play and play against, that can't be easy with hatebears.
I think the deck basically has room for one derpy combo enabler at least for me and that's Blasting station right now but it could easily be curio again. Curio's issue mosty is the same as skullclamp, it entices you to derp around and not build your board state, but it is *so dang good* at winning the game from a few positions. I am not really sure station is correct.
Phyrexian Metamorph can be tutored for with enlightened tutor and costs less, that's really the main reason for it - just hardcore efficiency. I'm honestly not sure if it's better or worse than Spark Double or clever impersonator or even stunt double. I think any of those would be fine.
I could never quite figure out what to cut for Thalia -- I own a playset of the promos and a normal foil set aside for when I can make up my mind or the meta is right. I will say making lands enter tapped is frigging savage. I've been on the receiving end a few times.
Boreas charger is kind of in a slot I have dubbed the "Experimental big mana slot" - used to be As Foretold. It is nice to have a card that can really catch you up on mana in a hurry (and blinking charger 3-4 times can really get you there, and also thin the heck out of your deck). That said, I still have never drawn it despite it being in for a while I expect it will be quite a bit better with Soulherder.
silver Myr oddly enough has always been great for me. Having too many mana creatures is pretty bad, but just having one keeps the creature density high enough while also keeping the critical # of turn 3 Ephara enablers. I tried having both myrs for a while and I tended to draw them too often and rely on them. It is distinctly possible that this card is worse than say Ponder or even Chrome Mox or Fellwar Stone. I think I could be convinced on that, but so far I think going below 30 creatures and 10 Turn 2 ephara enablers is probably wrong. So it's possible I could afford to shave it for something else - since adding Wayfarer and Ancient Tomb and Mana crypt it changed the numbers
Supreme Verdict is more about coming from behind than ahead. The can't be countered clause is the big driver. The deck doesn't play enough countermagic to be able to fight stack wars, so being uncounterable is relevant. I think it's debatable depending on a meta for sure.
A thing to note about sweepers though is that it can sometimes be right to just sweep while you're ahead because the deck rebuilds better than most. The whole Reveillark nonsense gets really oppressive sometimes. I've had games where I have like: Lark, Karmic Guide, Phantasmal Image, Metamorph out, and what do you even do there? I wind up with 2 reveillarks, 2 guides, and 2 other creatures from my bin after I sweep.
For the record, turn 3 ephara enablers are (mostly):
Also I attached some pics of the pages of my binder reserved for currently on my mind ephara nonsense
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Curio is thirsty. You need a ton of mana to make the most of it in all fairness, so running it optimally you probably want some Peregrine Drake or Palinchron grossness to ensure maximum mana availability. Station is definitely a leaner package, and for that reason alone I can see why it's superior.
I'm just always skeptical of these sort of effects, is all. They're never going to get you ahead on lands, they'll only draw you even, and a lot of the time they just don't trigger. I also run Knight of the White Orchid in Bruna, and it's a conditional card, tbh. Mostly it's there for a 2-drop with a save my ass ramp attached - that and it can grab any Plains and I can resurrect it easily. It's only hanging in there by a thread though, to be fair. I dunno, it just seems like a trigger that only goes off in niche situations, and doesn't really do enough to justify inclusion.
This makes sense. Being a definitive, authoritative nope is important when you're behind.
Lend me your folder sometime? There's some good stuff in here, but probably nothing that really MUST be in the deck. I'll give a shout out to Emeria Shepherd; she's my non-legendary lieutenant in Bruna, and she makes your boardstate seriously resilient. Favourite plays are Sword of the Animist on her, or spam Solemn Simulacrum with a sac outlet. That being said, she definitely shines best in mono white, so she may not put in the work here. There's probably a case to be made for Restoration Angel or Sakashima's Student, but neither one seems like a 100% lock.
3drinks: Edgar Markov Swarmpires Contamination
It's swarmpires. It swarms you, but with vampires. And then contaminates you, with contamination. Swarmpires contamination. I don't know how many points I give this title, but I don't think it matters. The goal here is quite explicitly to lock your opponents out of non-black mana with Contamination and never have to sacrifice the enchantment because Edgar gives you an unstoppable river of 1/1 sac fodder. It's an aggressive vampire tribal shell that by virtue of its design gets to pretty freely play a card that's like 4 copies of Iona, Shield of Emeria for 3 mana.
I don't really have much in the way of recommendations, purely because this deck is almost entirely a superior version of mine. However, there's a couple of draw options that have done really well for me: Ad Nauseam and Minion's Murmurs. Both dig super deep, and the life loss from AN is mitigated by a bargain basement CMC for most of our critters.
There's not really much else I can suggest, but I'm interested as to the absence of things like Blood Artist, Cruel Celebrant, Vindictive Vampire et al. The latter I can understand for being a little pricey, but the first two are pretty great.
A couple notes here, that I really should be playing Ad Naus but at the same time, what am I drawing into? There's only so much need for more *****pire 1 drops in-hand and holding excess cards is not something the deck particularly cares about (I'm not running Reliquary Tower for Ad Naus smh). So, like, it's this awkward spot where it's good enough for sure but it's not really helping me where it would help, say, a combo deck to be able to go off. Does that make sense?
FWIW, yes, the Blood Celebrant totally would get a spot in the deck. It's no contest. I believe Blood Artist is a bit more suspect at the two drop with 0 power and that it only targets one player. It's likely still good enough as it still triggers Edgar, Shared Animosity, still sacs to Indulgent Aristocrat and still gets pumped by Legion Lieutenant. But, you know, I don't consider it an open-and-shut case. The four drop vampire competes with Purphoros and is a bit slower so I don't believe I would play it. But I wouldn't fault anyone for playing it if they were on more budget than my collection has been blessed with over the years. Speaking of budget, the last iteration I played had The Abyss in it. So, have fun getting a hold of one of those for a price less than one of your vital organs lmao. It was good at least, but like, maybe don't spend on a card that could be a mortgage payment though.
Lastly, if you don't like linear decks, this is not going to be a good deck for you. It literally does one thing, and while it does do that one thing very, very well, you will get bored of it and people will ask if you have a "real deck". Myself, I've actually stopped playing it, but I will keep the resource posted indefinitely because, I think, it's valuable to the community to have access to an optimized list as Edgar is a very popular commander.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
edit: It's also not a vampire, so nope, I can say I wouldn't play it.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Yeah, I totally get this (I feel the same way about Reliquary Tower FWIW). I use my draw to refill to 7 when I've run through a hand of weenies, or to draw into some combat modifiers. You have a few more tricks to roll with in Impact Tremors and Purph, so there's probably a little less pressure in that respect to keep a full grip. It's probably not the most busted use for Ad Nauseam, but it's also the most reasonable place for it in the format. I can totally understand why you don't run it.
Yeah, the higher cost cards here are great but not 100% necessary. For the most part, it's a remarkably budget friendly build. You could build an Edgar weenies deck easily for less than $80-100, I'd say. You might miss some of the more efficient draw, your control pieces and finishers, but it'd still do well enough.
I was meaning Cruel Celebrant which is a vampire.
Agree totally. Edgar weenies is a strong build, but it does really only have one trick in the bag, so if having variation is important this isn't the deck for it. I still have mine together, purely because sometimes it's nice to play a deck that runs this quick, and it's mostly super easy and cheap to grab stuff for, but I don't often play it either - it's good, but I prefer decks with a bit of variation. Still, it's a lesson in early tempo and efficiency, and that's not nothing.
WizardMN: Karador, Ghost Chieftain - War of Attrition
Taking it slow for a moment, this Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck is not in a hurry. With Karador, your graveyard is like a second hand. With sac outlets, your board is like a second graveyard. Hand to board to grave to board, gaining a little bit of ground every step of the way. No hyper-combo finish, just enough answers to recur to keep the game going for as long as it takes to shove opponents in the grave that couldn't hold Karador's creatures.
I've looked at building Karador in the past, but he's damn hard to track down these days. This looks like a lot of fun to play. As we've noted from my previous deck discussions, I do love a grindy deck that uses the yard, so this would be one I would enjoy playing. For now, I don't really have any suggestions, other than that I really do love a deck that uses strong cards without giving in to infinite combos. Fine if you want to, but it's not my jam and I just won't*.
*tStorm's Zedruu, and by extension my budget bastardised version get a pass because you've never seen combo so janky or convoluted.
No Selfless Spirit, No Yosei, the Morning Star, no Saffi Eriksdotter, reveillark, nim deathmantle
No Chord of Calling, no Satyr Wayfinder.
It is so crazy, I think it would be faster to list the common cards we have vs the differences.
It is definitely an uncommon Karador list.
No Life from the Loam
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
@Dunharrow
I generally prefer Spike Weaver as my fog of choice. It doesn't work as well as Spore Frog with the graveyard interaction, but being able to fog for the entire turn cycle is really good. And, False Prophet can clean things up when I need it to.
Yosei is more of a lock piece and I don't run it simply because I don't like that type of card. Saffi and 'Lark are decent but not really ones I want to include. I did have Reveillark at one time and didn't like it that much as I didn't feel the value I got out of it was worth it. I can't remember if I have ever had Deathmantle as I know I have played it in other decks.
I know the Wayfinder was mentioned in the thread and I am kind of on board with that. It fuels Karador and ensures I hit my land drop. I never felt it was that good, but it is certainly one I am open to trying at some point though. And it wouldn't be the first time I underestimated a card.
Chord and Life from the Loam are interesting mentions as they are ones I have legitimately thought of including in the past. Chord didn't make the cut because my entire game plan, good or bad, is to not have a big board state (and to not let anyone else have one). While it can get me some silver bullets, the only time I can usually Convoke for anything is when I am already in a winning position. I prefer Protean Hulk for my tutor.
I actually had a game probably around a year ago now (where does the time go?) where I Entombed to get a Life from the Loam before I realized I didn't have one (I has thinking of a different deck where I did have it). Ultimately, I never included it and I don't really know why. I am not sure I really need it but it does have some good synergies with the deck.
I had built this deck more or less from the ground up. As I mentioned, I started with some Doran build since I had never played EDH before and I quickly changed it to what it is now. As I was building it, I had never heard of EDHRec or even MTG Salvation so I was kind of on my own. My cousin was the big driver is some early decisions and I realized I liked how it played. So, I can definitely see where my list would be outside the norm but it has worked well for me in the past. As my thread indicates, it hasn't been working as well lately, but I am trying to tighten it up and tune it more and I think I am getting it back to where I want it
I had stuff like people shooting my frog with a sword of fire and ice someone else let get through happen. Weaver can ***** that off simply by fogging the sword, or being a 3/3, or whatever. Weaver surviving Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is another corner case that has come up for me with Gitrog. I don't really play either anymore since I started jamming a bit more removal, but I definitely did not enjoy Spore Frog as much as I thought.
I also quite like the deck and most of WizardMN's builds - the sensitivities are fairly similar to mine and I think it's in general a good way to play commander. I think I've provided most of my feedback in the thread already, but I will chime in again re: life from the Loam --
IMHO, this card is a durdlefest if you aren't looking to make a crapload of landrops using extra drop cards like Exploration and Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I generally would not bother with it unless you have at least 8-10 cards that benefit from it, which he this build does not - no cycling lands, no exploration azusa wayward swordtooth etc.
The deck is more focused on ramping with ETB and sac creatures, which is justifiable in Karador, so I think Loam is pretty much just a "hit your land drops" card, in which case it's fairly mediocre and also quite mana intensive.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
For this one, some thoughts: