Do you have any trouble activating Mistveil Plains? I'm counting 13 white permanents other than Karador, which is a little light for having two on board. If so or if you don't find it worth activating often anyways, is it worth coming in tapped?
\I like it because it can be fetched (though, not as well since cutting Kor Cartographer) and I actually don't even remember the last time I activated it. And, that isn't even to say I couldn't have; just that I didn't need to. This is a good call out as it may not be pulling its weight anymore, but it has a very minimal downside (coming into play tapped isn't a big deal since it is one of the only lands that does) so I am not sure if it changes much to cut it anyway.
I'm counting 4 sac outlets, the three lands and Greater Good. Even if you're consistently tutoring for the lands, that seems light. If you're trying to avoid combos, something with a mana cost a la Attrition or Evolutionary Leap could be a good one. Related to this, Corpse Dance feels a little underutilized when you have less ability to put a fresh creature on top of the yard or sac the one you've recurred
I have 6 total: 4 lands (Diamond Valley, High Market, Miren, Tower), Greater Good, and Momentous Fall. Granted the latter is one time use, but still good. I used to have Attrition and found it wasn't good enough. Leap might be, but I will likely end up adding Pod soon so, while not Instant timing, it is still a sac outlet.
Your take on Corpse Dance kind of mirrors my own (especially after my game last night). It is getting really tough to control the top of my graveyard and I need to be able to do things without worrying about it messes up Corpse Dance, it might be time for me to finally cut it. I had it early on, cut it, and added it back, and it may need to be cut again.
I've always found Agent of Erebos a touch awkward. It's nice to proactively and repeatedly clear yards, but not being able to respond is painful sometimes. Additionally, you're always a clone away from losing your own yard (especially without numerous sac outlets). Would this be better as Scavenging Ooze or Withered Wretch?
Maybe the Ooze but I like the ability to nuke an entire graveyard and not just one card at a time. Hulk and Winding Canyons let me get it in at Instant Timing. It may not be enough, but I still like the ability to nuke more than one graveyard (not that I have a ton of other enchantments) and it is recurrable. I used to have Ooze and just felt it was slow. Maybe it is another where I need to think on trying to be a little lower in the curve and giving myself more opportunities to react at instant timing.
You have almost no artifacts in the list. If you're feeling lightly stax-y, Collector Ouphe, Stony Silence, and Null Rod only turn off Burnished Hart. In my experience, those slow other decks down quite a bit and you have a very grindy list here
Hmm...I like the Ouphe. The main issue I have with these cards is that they tend to not do anything in certain matchups and they often get blown up with incidental artifact/enchantment hate. The Ouphe solves that and it can be recurred. Since one player I play with often is a Jhoira player and another couple ramp hard with Artifacts, I just might have to give the Ouphe a try.
Necrotic Sliver has felt very slow to me in recent years. While I have fond memories of it from when I started with the format, it's not a good rate for what it does anymore. You have plenty of instants and a couple other creatures to answer Torpor Orb effects, which is probably its best use at this point
There have been a number of games where recurring this off of Sun Titan or recasting it off of Karador has won me games. It is slow and mana intensive, but it has been very good for me. Perhaps, with all the other removal, I will not need it as much, but the last game I had still showed it was putting in work.
Not specific to your list, but I've liked Underrealm Lich a lot in my own Karador. It's excellent filtering, fills the yard without going all in on it, and is pretty sticky. The Sylvan Library interaction is a lot of fun too[/list]
I was going to pick one up for Lord Windgrace but I didn't really think about it for this deck. I guess the main thing against it is the 5 mana cost but with the inclusion of Library (which is a great interaction) I might have to give it a look for this deck. I am trying to keep my curve down but looking at 3 cards each time is great (and Library shows) and looking at 9 cards with Library without having to put any back is even better. I will pick one up and see where it fits.
List tags are malformed.
Lots of excellent comments above. I will mostly reiterate some of the choices I have seen already mentioned.
False Prophet is an excellent board wipe on a stick, though you may want to pack another sac outlet or two as described above. If the Altar's are too combo-y for you, there is Viscera Seer, Martyr's Cause, and Carrion Feeder.
Corpse Augur has been one of my top tutor targets in Karador. Draws at least 3-4 cards, and the best I have done is to draw 17 off my own graveyard to win the game after self-milling with Altar of Dementia.
If you want a huge shot in the arm to your graveyard, Doom Whisperer is showing much promise in my testing.
Necromancy can be cast at instant speed to bring back a surprise blocker, ETB, LTB, or any useful creature in a Flash. But its not a creature :frown:.
False Prophet is an excellent board wipe on a stick, though you may want to pack another sac outlet or two as described above. If the Altar's are too combo-y for you, there is Viscera Seer, Martyr's Cause, and Carrion Feeder
I have given serious thought to the number of sac outlets I have. I think I would really prefer Evolutionary Leap (mentioned above) to these just because it can get me to more creatures where none of these do. The main problem is it costs mana which means I could see going with Seer as the better of these 3. All in all, I haven't found that I need more, but I may have to see how the next few games go. I like both the Seer and Feeder but scrying is much better than just maiking a creature big I think.
Corpse Augur has been one of my top tutor targets in Karador. Draws at least 3-4 cards, and the best I have done is to draw 17 off my own graveyard to win the game after self-milling with Altar of Dementia.
I did have this included at one time and I think your situation allows it to be much better. While I am using my graveyard as a resource, I don't generally *actively* try to fill it which meant it never did as much for me as I thought it would. And, since I am not as active at filling my graveyard, I am not sure Doom Whisperer is where I want to be. I think Underealm Lich does a better job of it.
Necromancy can be cast at instant speed to bring back a surprise blocker, ETB, LTB, or any useful creature in a Flash. But its not a creature :frown:.
I actually just picked a copy of this up for my Yarok deck I am building I will see how well it works in that deck (not the same build but can still be a decent place to experiment with it). If it goes well there, it might make its way here. Probably over Corpse Dance at the very least.
Sac outlet not mentioned above - slightly janky but doesn’t combo and could be of use: Vampiric Rites. Not as strong as Evolutionary Leap, but could still be of use. Or, if you need more ‘gain life equal to toughness’ there’s Disciple of Griselbrand or Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim. That last could be savage here if you find yourself with incidental mana to spare.
Also, just wondering, you run Value Hulk, have you considered Woodland Bellower? Sort of a mini Hulk for board presence, and it looks like there’s a few pieces currently in your build it could grab. Not sure how clutch they are, but Bellower does great things in my Nissa build. You could even grab it by popping Hulk and grab an extra 3 or less critter - if you run Saffi too, you could get your Hulk back and pop it again without going full combo.
Also, just wondering - considering this is a pretty grindy build, have you considered adding a few control pieces to slow your opposing boardstates a little? Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a card I bang on about all the time, it comes down at the right time to do what it does. Dragonlord Dromoka could give you some mid to late game breathing space too - being as they’re critters you shouldn’t have any problems keeping them around either.
Obviously take all this with a grain of salt as I’ve never run Karador.
I don't like Ayli or Disciple simply because they cost mana. One of the bigger issues with Leap as well but at least Leap keeps me going. I don't know that "just" gaining life is enough.
I had thought about Bellower but not since it came out. I used to think I could make it work, but I never really revisited it. I think there are a lot of things it can grab for me that could be good. The main concern is the 6 mana cost though it does trigger on entering rather than dying so it at least sticks around (unlike Hulk). If I find I want more tutors, or I evolve this into even more of a toolbox sort of deck, I can keep it in mind.
I think I like the idea of the Ouphe that was mentioned above. I could see a situation where I go down that route with things like Thalia more but it isn't a particularly enjoyable style of play for me so I likely won't do much with it either way. I do like the idea of Dromoka though and I had considered her after seeing the work she put into Karametra. I just could never find a good spot and I kind of forgot about her. I might have to look at her again to do more in the mid game mostly. The late game is generally a lock when I get to it, but I could see dropping her relatively early and just coasting on the beats and life gain for a little while.
The other sac outlet I think you might get some mileage out of is Varolz, the scar-striped. As far as I know he's the only zenithable open sac outlet with any upside, and he has quite a bit of upside. And having your outlet be zenithable is a huge upside on its own.
I'd also probably play GSZ. It's crazy good, esp. with Ouphe now an option.
Jeez....I already had a tough time trying to make cuts for other cards. You all just have too many good suggestions
I will have to think on GSZ. I have always thought of the deck as one that has answers but not really one that was a traditional "toolbox" sort of deck (at least, in the sense of Pod toolbox). By that I mean, it had the answer cards along with a few others, but it wasn't all about trying to tutor out specific cards. Hulk was my main thing for this but I never went too deep with it.
I guess, basically, I don't want a ton of tutors or things like that. I like the variety and I like the "randomness" of trying to assemble things without necessarily just getting the right answer via a tutor. Now, I do believe there is a balance to this and I am likely on the shorter side but I don't want to go too far with it either. I like Pod and I like Green Sun's as both are restrictive enough. And, with Fauna Shaman and Hulk, that makes 4 total cards to move into Toolbox territory without being too obnoxious I think. That does strike me as reasonable so I will see how things play out. I have a lot of new things to try I suppose
It's pretty easy to start down the slippery slope to tutor town so I applaud you for thinking on that.
That said, GSZ is so stellar in creature decks it's usually my #1 - it ramps, it fetches answers, etc. You don't need to add eladamri's call, chord of calling, eldritch evolution, etc.
The way EDH has started going these days you really need multiple ways to find answers, unfortunately. Wizards printing bombs very aggressively especially in the enchantment, creature, and artifact slots. So I think having a few somewhat narrow tutors is fine.
Playing GSZ, Pod, Survival and Hulk is very reasonable IMHO, especially in an animate dead deck where the secondary action of pod/survival/hulk is part of your gameplan (putting stuff in the graveyard).
When you start going +eladamri's call, +chord of calling, +eldritch evolution, is when I think stuff gets out of hand samey.
Totally agree here. Having a couple of options to grab a tool you need is not the end of the world. It’s a slippery slope, but you can allow yourself some options without going all in on tutor town. My Nissa build runs 4 from memory. 3 for critters, 1 for lands. It’s plenty to get what you need without feeling like you’re cheating the random element of the format. Besides, I feel like these ones are at least a step up from the ‘hard tutors’ like vampiric and demonic.
As it turns out, the split personalities are black and green. Frankly, the deck is a better representation of that than the card Savra, Golgari Queen is, both her triggered abilities lean black to me. The black/green split in this deck is 1/2 a toolbox of creatures that you can sacrifice for value, and 1/2 a bunch of useful lands that can be recurred for more value. In many ways, it's similar to the previous deck in that it's black and green and ready to come out on top in the long game.
Private Mod Note
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
The desire to move away from The Gitrog Monster makes sense since he does tend to be combo oriented so I can see where the fear came from with your opponents. When I had mine built, it included a combo because all the pieces made sense in the deck. I ended up taking it apart after the last 3 or 4 games I played with it ended with that combo.
As to your list, I like it quite a bit. I always felt Savra was kind of tough to make work well, but maybe she ends up doing well with the right support which you seem to have here. Any thoughts to Chainer, Dementia Master? I can see where the life payment would be a big deal since Savra is also costing life. But he seems like he fits in the recursion theme pretty well.
What about Gray Merchant of Asphodel and/or Kokusho, the Evening Star as ways to gain some much needed life as well as helping to close out the game? I know Savra helps with this as well, so maybe she is enough life gain to offset her own ability.
I have never been a fan of Worm Harvest but it seems like it could do good work here since the tokens are both colors. How good has this card been?
You do seem kind of light on the sac outlets. Has this ever come up as a problem? I do agree with one of the comments that Viscera Seer seems good for this deck. Maybe Carrion Feeder works as well. I was also disappointed that you had Phyrexian Plaguelord and replaced it with Yawgmoth. Not that it isn't a good idea, but I really like the Plaguelord and I don't see many lists running it (it usually isn't good enough for mine either).
This deck is like a who's who of golgari goodstuff.
Savra is basically Grave Pact in the command zone in this deck and I think that's probably the most BG rock midrange thing you can play in the command zone short of Deathrite or Pernicious Deed.
There's a lot of overlap conceptually with the previous deck (karador) we reviewed so some of what I have to say will probably overlap:
* Green Sun's Zenith plus Varolz, the Scar Striped plus Dryad Arbor would be a pretty solid set of changes that would improve consistency and functionally give you +2 sac outlets. I think Varolz's ability actually coincides with the gameplan even more than Karador, since you're probably fine to go ahead and eat some of your own dudes to make a 15/15 or something.
* Any deck that plays Genesis and Life from the Loam should consider playing entomb, and only not be playing it for a very good reason (e.g. desire to minimize tutors). As a side note, I think this deck would benefit from buried Alive enough to play it -- the combination of getting 3 dredge pieces, or genesis + plaguecrafter + etc. is very good. If it were my deck I most likely would just play Entomb.
* I'm not sure Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has enough support. I might be missing something. Maybe he's strong enough on his own too.
* I am not sure I would play Ostone in this deck. It's absolutely fine but it's not particularly strong. This feels like a deck where you can get by with just ench/artifact sweepers and then beat their planeswalkers to death, but I might be wrong.
* The lands matter package overall feels a little constrained in this deck. Like you'd maybe want to have a few more extra land drop effects or something - burgeoning, exploration type stuff, but there's not a lot of room for them. I don't know have any actual advice there just a comment.
* This is actually a weird deck that I think might benefit from *more* non-sweeper removal for enchantments and artifacts especially. Maybe like Pir's whim or Broken Bond or something? Whim has been exceptional for me so far. The way this deck looks to play out it feels like your edict spam will keep creatures in check. I could see going down a sweeper or two and up on stuff like Acidic Slime or Thrashing Brontodon.
Speaking of Brontodon, I think it is really a clutch card in this deck. triggers edicts, doesn't require a sac outlet to reuse with Volrath's + genesis, and has a more respectable body than rec sage. It has been reallllly good in my gitrog deck. I have made more than one person scoop to Volrath's+Brontodon. Build your own really crappy aura shards
Hope some of that helps. I really like the deck and have played a number of iterations with a lot of similar cards (including skullbriar and gitrog).
Oh man, I used to run Savra, and honestly it was a ton of fun. Although the triggers can get a bit overwhelming from time to time. Still, so much fun. She definitely doesn't get enough love. If I wasn't playing Glissa, I'd be tempted to build Savra again.
Mine was a fairly janky build, courtesy of a reasonably new to the format sort of attitude. It was still fun and did stuff, but this one definitely looks more focused. However, the black reanimation dorks were handy, as were things like Victimize and Smothering Abomination - that thing was a legitimate draw tank in Savra. Cards for what you're doing anyway is a no brainer.
I have never been a fan of Worm Harvest but it seems like it could do good work here since the tokens are both colors. How good has this card been?
I can confirm the value in this card for Savra - being both colours make her work twice as hard, it really is worth it. I also definitely think Gary and Koko could fit well here. They're both great for the big life swings that a commander like this could benefit from, and both game-ending spells in their own right.
As to your list, I like it quite a bit. I always felt Savra was kind of tough to make work well, but maybe she ends up doing well with the right support which you seem to have here. Any thoughts to Chainer, Dementia Master? I can see where the life payment would be a big deal since Savra is also costing life. But he seems like he fits in the recursion theme pretty well.
The Deck is pretty color intensive as it stands BBB is a bit rough even running Urborg
What about Gray Merchant of Asphodel and/or Kokusho, the Evening Star as ways to gain some much-needed life as well as helping to close out the game? I know Savra helps with this as well, so maybe she is enough life gain to offset her own ability.
Kokusho, the Evening Star has been in a small pile of cards that has never quite made the cut partially because when the list was initially created it was banned. Gray Merchant of Asphodel Lived in a zombie tribal list I had for a while. When it went away I didn't really think to port it over here, I'll give it a try.
I have never been a fan of Worm Harvest but it seems like it could do good work here since the tokens are both colors. How good has this card been?
You do seem kind of light on the sac outlets. Has this ever come up as a problem? I do agree with one of the comments that Viscera Seer seems good for this deck. Maybe Carrion Feeder works as well. I was also disappointed that you had Phyrexian Plaguelord and replaced it with Yawgmoth. Not that it isn't a good idea, but I really like the Plaguelord and I don't see many lists running it (it usually isn't good enough for mine either).
Occasionally I feel the lack of outlets but the deck can generally play a straight one for one control grind to buy time until I find them.
* Green Sun's Zenith plus Varolz, the Scar Striped plus Dryad Arbor would be a pretty solid set of changes that would improve consistency and functionally give you +2 sac outlets. I think Varolz's ability actually coincides with the gameplan even more than Karador, since you're probably fine to go ahead and eat some of your own dudes to make a 15/15 or something.
Green Sun's Zenith fits the reusable tutor thing I've got going on not being able to hit black creatures is a bit concerning as mostly I'm tutoring for answers. Varolz, the Scar-Striped lives in the same pile of near misses with Kokusho, the Evening Star he also has a significant drawback of costing 3 mana which I have a surplus of creatures at that CMC.
* Any deck that plays Genesis and Life from the Loam should consider playing entomb, and only not be playing it for a very good reason (e.g. desire to minimize tutors). As a side note, I think this deck would benefit from Buried Alive enough to play it -- the combination of getting 3 dredge pieces, or genesis + plaguecrafter + etc. is very good. If it were my deck I most likely would just play Entomb.
I've mostly tried to avoid single-use tutors.
* I'm not sure Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has enough support. I might be missing something. Maybe he's strong enough on his own too.
Deck was already running Phyrexian Plaguelord seemed like an easy swap was generally really happy seeing Plaguelord over the years.
* I am not sure I would play Ostone in this deck. It's absolutely fine but it's not particularly strong. This feels like a deck where you can get by with just ench/artifact sweepers and then beat their planeswalkers to death, but I might be wrong.
I recently consolidated several lists down to one non-budget list I used to run nevinyrral's disk as well the slot was taken by toxic deluge. So far I haven't missed the disk, Ostone is a viable cut next time I find something I NEED.
* The lands matter package overall feels a little constrained in this deck. Like you'd maybe want to have a few more extra land drop effects or something - burgeoning, exploration type stuff, but there's not a lot of room for them. I don't know have any actual advice there just a comment.
The lack of extra land drops is tied to the lack of ramp. I'd rather draw cards that do things later in the game than just drawing air. oracle of mul daya is a holdover from an earlier time when drawing cards was at a premium and just hasn't found it's way out.
* This is actually a weird deck that I think might benefit from *more* non-sweeper removal for enchantments and artifacts especially. Maybe like Pir's whim or Broken Bond or something? Whim has been exceptional for me so far. The way this deck looks to play out it feels like your edict spam will keep creatures in check. I could see going down a sweeper or two and up on stuff like Acidic Slime or Thrashing Brontodon.
I've been waiting literal years for a 4cmc Reclamation Sage so I can Birthing pod from Sage to Slime hitting targets along the way.
Speaking of Brontodon, I think it is really a clutch card in this deck. triggers edicts, doesn't require a sac outlet to reuse with Volrath's + genesis, and has a more respectable body than rec sage. It has been reallllly good in my gitrog deck. I have made more than one person scoop to Volrath's+Brontodon. Build your own really crappy aura shards
I've gone back and forth a few times between Viridian Zealot & Caustic Caterpillar in the end the cheaper card won out so when brontodon was printed I didn't really consider it due to these results and the absolute glut of 3 drops.
Oh man, I used to run Savra, and honestly it was a ton of fun. Although the triggers can get a bit overwhelming from time to time. Still, so much fun. She definitely doesn't get enough love. If I wasn't playing Glissa, I'd be tempted to build Savra again.
I've sat and looked at Apprentice Necromancer for a long time and it just hasn't gotten there, I'll add it to my next TCGplayer order. Reassembling Skeleton doesn't do much on its own and is mana intensive to recur. generally, I think Bloodghast is better. Sakura-Tribe Elder There's nothing I'm in a particular hurry to ramp to and dislike drawing air later in the game so I've avoided ramp spells. If one made the cut Steve would probably be it. Doomed Necromancer falls victim to its converted mana cost. Smothering Abomination, Disciple of Bolas were both in earlier iterations of the deck and got cut for various reason. I occasionally miss Disciple but the forced sacrifice of Abomination bothered me. Strands of Night 6 mana and a land feels like a steep price to pay. my other forms of recursion and relatively low mana costs are generally going to be less mana to bring things back.
It doesn't look like you really have any way to draw cards. If you get your graveyard exiled with only one or two cards in hand it seems like you'd run out of steam extremely fast. I feel like this deck would really enjoy having a Skullclamp and it would also help with this problem.
Maybe you don't sacrifice enough fodder, but I'm a huge fan of Pitiless Plunderer in sacrifice decks.
With all your land recursion Memorial to Folly could work as a bad Genesis. Also, with your dredge/land package Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a really good ramp creature. Especially with all your sacrifice lands.
This deck looks like it has a hard time actually getting people dead in an efficient amount of time. Might be worth slotting in Craterhoof Behemoth to end the game with Worm Harvest.
It doesn't look like you really have any way to draw cards. If you get your graveyard exiled with only one or two cards in hand it seems like you'd run out of steam extremely fast. I feel like this deck would really enjoy having a Skullclamp and it would also help with this problem.
I like bone shredder more due to the Echo playing well with the various gravepacts
With all your land recursion Memorial to Folly could work as a bad Genesis. Also, with your dredge/land package Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a really good ramp creature. Especially with all your sacrifice lands.
My most recent project of late has been cutting lands that come into play tapped more than not the Cycling lands are cantrips that occasionally "morph" into mana sources.
No single card has failed to impress me over the last couple of years as much as Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I'm not sure how but even in a windgrace lands matter list with 45+ lands she did less than nothing.
This deck looks like it has a hard time actually getting people dead in an efficient amount of time. Might be worth slotting in Craterhoof Behemoth to end the game with Worm Harvest.
This is a legitimate concern. The way I end up playing it more than not I attempt to live in 2nd place and fly under the radar until I resolve Living death or Rise of the Dark Realms and create an avalanche of card advantage or simply combo out with Jarad
No single card has failed to impress me over the last couple of years as much as Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I'm not sure how but even in a windgrace lands matter list with 45+ lands she did less than nothing.
You could always meet her halfway with something like Wayward Swordtooth. It does well in my Nissa build.
This is a legitimate concern. The way I end up playing it more than not I attempt to live in 2nd place and fly under the radar until I resolve Living death or Rise of the Dark Realms and create an avalanche of card advantage or simply combo out with Jarad
This speaks to a need for immediate impact, to my mind. I would definitely look at getting Gray Merchant of Asphodel into the list. Totally feasible in a bicolour list, and recurring it will just get you there really quickly. Koko I can definitely see missing, purely because it requires a little more finagling and repetition to win with, but Gary is well worth it for immediate value and the possibility of being a really solid finisher.
If this deck wanted an extra land drop effect it'd probably want Exploration since it can power out the early stuff. It's really so low to the ground that 3 mana ramp spells are are super out of place.
If it wants any ramp at all it probably wants it on turn 1 or 2 before it starts casting more businessy spells - I am about 100% that it wants green sun's zenith and dryad arbor though. Arbor does a crapload of work in the deck, turning Crucible into a murder machine. And getting to 3 early is pretty good.
Edit: a few responses to responses from OP
* I think you would probably like Varolz more than you think. His regenerate ability has always been great for me in sac decks, combined with his ability to be tutored with GSZ (which is incredibly flexible in this deck). he does a heck of a lot in this type of deck for 3 mana. Only playable with GSZ though.
* I would not think of Entomb as a single use tutor in this deck. It's a card that starts your engine. You would really like to start every game with a dredger in the yard and once you have one you can basically repeatedly tutor. That is how I think of Entomb in the Gitrog Monster. Entomb is a tutor for a dredge piece that lets you zip through your library, so it's "functionally" reusable.
* Wickerbough Elder is the bridge creature you're looking for. Costs one extra green but it's also grotesque w Yawgmoth. and as a bonus it beats torpor orb.
GSZ/Arbor are both way underplayed in EDH. Holdover from people being afraid their lands were gonna get popped.
I have built decks that just want to cultivate and play a couple signets or something, but for the most part if I'm in green I want that combination of a flexible non-telegraphing tutor that also ramps.
The non-telegraphing nature is really deceptively powerful as well. When it resolves the creature is on the battlefield, and your opponents do not receive priority. Sometimes this can mean you put the combo on the board with no real window for them to do anything if they don't know you're going for it (e.g. you GSZ for Jarad with Lord of Extinction on the battlefield, there is nothing they can do).
And if they pop Jarad or Lord in response to GSZ, you just make a different choice (get Skullwinder, for example).
It's pretty easy to start down the slippery slope to tutor town so I applaud you for thinking on that.
Yeah, don't be like me that crams every tutour under the sun into your deck. Speaking from experience, while it's super cool the first few games to know you're playing 20% tutours in your deck and have created a super consistent gameplan, it is a novelty that wears thin soon unless you're in the cEDH pool or play such a demanding commander that you need that level of consistency.
When you get to the point of "Hmm, I wonder just how much this Imperial Seal would improve my deck..." you'll know you've gone too far. Don't be that guy that shows up with the $450 judge promo crappier version of Vampiric Tutor to the pick up game with nothing on the line. It's uhh...it's a pretty bad look.
My first instinct was to say "noooo" to the depths combo since it's historically been so bad for me, but I haven't ever had a depths deck quite as controlling as this. My suspicion is that by the time you're ready to start dropping depths you will have Loam online and you'll likely have ground your opponents out of resources, so Depths could wind up being an efficient finisher for you. I'll bookmark your thread so I can hear how it all goes
My first instinct was to say "noooo" to the depths combo since it's historically been so bad for me, but I haven't ever had a depths deck quite as controlling as this. My suspicion is that by the time you're ready to start dropping depths you will have Loam online and you'll likely have ground your opponents out of resources, so Depths could wind up being an efficient finisher for you. I'll bookmark your thread so I can hear how it all goes
I look forward to chaining activations every turn and feeding the 20/20 token to Savra... not saying it's good but would be funny.
I have 6 total: 4 lands (Diamond Valley, High Market, Miren, Tower), Greater Good, and Momentous Fall. Granted the latter is one time use, but still good. I used to have Attrition and found it wasn't good enough. Leap might be, but I will likely end up adding Pod soon so, while not Instant timing, it is still a sac outlet.
Your take on Corpse Dance kind of mirrors my own (especially after my game last night). It is getting really tough to control the top of my graveyard and I need to be able to do things without worrying about it messes up Corpse Dance, it might be time for me to finally cut it. I had it early on, cut it, and added it back, and it may need to be cut again.
Maybe the Ooze but I like the ability to nuke an entire graveyard and not just one card at a time. Hulk and Winding Canyons let me get it in at Instant Timing. It may not be enough, but I still like the ability to nuke more than one graveyard (not that I have a ton of other enchantments) and it is recurrable. I used to have Ooze and just felt it was slow. Maybe it is another where I need to think on trying to be a little lower in the curve and giving myself more opportunities to react at instant timing.
Hmm...I like the Ouphe. The main issue I have with these cards is that they tend to not do anything in certain matchups and they often get blown up with incidental artifact/enchantment hate. The Ouphe solves that and it can be recurred. Since one player I play with often is a Jhoira player and another couple ramp hard with Artifacts, I just might have to give the Ouphe a try.
There have been a number of games where recurring this off of Sun Titan or recasting it off of Karador has won me games. It is slow and mana intensive, but it has been very good for me. Perhaps, with all the other removal, I will not need it as much, but the last game I had still showed it was putting in work.
I was going to pick one up for Lord Windgrace but I didn't really think about it for this deck. I guess the main thing against it is the 5 mana cost but with the inclusion of Library (which is a great interaction) I might have to give it a look for this deck. I am trying to keep my curve down but looking at 3 cards each time is great (and Library shows) and looking at 9 cards with Library without having to put any back is even better. I will pick one up and see where it fits.
List tags are malformed.
False Prophet is an excellent board wipe on a stick, though you may want to pack another sac outlet or two as described above. If the Altar's are too combo-y for you, there is Viscera Seer, Martyr's Cause, and Carrion Feeder.
I also play Saffi Eriksdotter, Reveilark, and Nim Deathmantle, which were already mentioned and I like them very much. Yosei, the Morning Star and Kokusho, the Evening Star are finishers for me that don't require combat damage.
Corpse Augur has been one of my top tutor targets in Karador. Draws at least 3-4 cards, and the best I have done is to draw 17 off my own graveyard to win the game after self-milling with Altar of Dementia.
If you want a huge shot in the arm to your graveyard, Doom Whisperer is showing much promise in my testing.
Necromancy can be cast at instant speed to bring back a surprise blocker, ETB, LTB, or any useful creature in a Flash. But its not a creature :frown:.
I did have this included at one time and I think your situation allows it to be much better. While I am using my graveyard as a resource, I don't generally *actively* try to fill it which meant it never did as much for me as I thought it would. And, since I am not as active at filling my graveyard, I am not sure Doom Whisperer is where I want to be. I think Underealm Lich does a better job of it.
I actually just picked a copy of this up for my Yarok deck I am building I will see how well it works in that deck (not the same build but can still be a decent place to experiment with it). If it goes well there, it might make its way here. Probably over Corpse Dance at the very least.
Also, just wondering, you run Value Hulk, have you considered Woodland Bellower? Sort of a mini Hulk for board presence, and it looks like there’s a few pieces currently in your build it could grab. Not sure how clutch they are, but Bellower does great things in my Nissa build. You could even grab it by popping Hulk and grab an extra 3 or less critter - if you run Saffi too, you could get your Hulk back and pop it again without going full combo.
Also, just wondering - considering this is a pretty grindy build, have you considered adding a few control pieces to slow your opposing boardstates a little? Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a card I bang on about all the time, it comes down at the right time to do what it does. Dragonlord Dromoka could give you some mid to late game breathing space too - being as they’re critters you shouldn’t have any problems keeping them around either.
Obviously take all this with a grain of salt as I’ve never run Karador.
I had thought about Bellower but not since it came out. I used to think I could make it work, but I never really revisited it. I think there are a lot of things it can grab for me that could be good. The main concern is the 6 mana cost though it does trigger on entering rather than dying so it at least sticks around (unlike Hulk). If I find I want more tutors, or I evolve this into even more of a toolbox sort of deck, I can keep it in mind.
I think I like the idea of the Ouphe that was mentioned above. I could see a situation where I go down that route with things like Thalia more but it isn't a particularly enjoyable style of play for me so I likely won't do much with it either way. I do like the idea of Dromoka though and I had considered her after seeing the work she put into Karametra. I just could never find a good spot and I kind of forgot about her. I might have to look at her again to do more in the mid game mostly. The late game is generally a lock when I get to it, but I could see dropping her relatively early and just coasting on the beats and life gain for a little while.
The other sac outlet I think you might get some mileage out of is Varolz, the scar-striped. As far as I know he's the only zenithable open sac outlet with any upside, and he has quite a bit of upside. And having your outlet be zenithable is a huge upside on its own.
I'd also probably play GSZ. It's crazy good, esp. with Ouphe now an option.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
T1 Dryad Arbor is a great start too.
I will have to think on GSZ. I have always thought of the deck as one that has answers but not really one that was a traditional "toolbox" sort of deck (at least, in the sense of Pod toolbox). By that I mean, it had the answer cards along with a few others, but it wasn't all about trying to tutor out specific cards. Hulk was my main thing for this but I never went too deep with it.
I guess, basically, I don't want a ton of tutors or things like that. I like the variety and I like the "randomness" of trying to assemble things without necessarily just getting the right answer via a tutor. Now, I do believe there is a balance to this and I am likely on the shorter side but I don't want to go too far with it either. I like Pod and I like Green Sun's as both are restrictive enough. And, with Fauna Shaman and Hulk, that makes 4 total cards to move into Toolbox territory without being too obnoxious I think. That does strike me as reasonable so I will see how things play out. I have a lot of new things to try I suppose
That said, GSZ is so stellar in creature decks it's usually my #1 - it ramps, it fetches answers, etc. You don't need to add eladamri's call, chord of calling, eldritch evolution, etc.
The way EDH has started going these days you really need multiple ways to find answers, unfortunately. Wizards printing bombs very aggressively especially in the enchantment, creature, and artifact slots. So I think having a few somewhat narrow tutors is fine.
Playing GSZ, Pod, Survival and Hulk is very reasonable IMHO, especially in an animate dead deck where the secondary action of pod/survival/hulk is part of your gameplan (putting stuff in the graveyard).
When you start going +eladamri's call, +chord of calling, +eldritch evolution, is when I think stuff gets out of hand samey.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Zahrim: Savra, Queen of Split Personalities
As it turns out, the split personalities are black and green. Frankly, the deck is a better representation of that than the card Savra, Golgari Queen is, both her triggered abilities lean black to me. The black/green split in this deck is 1/2 a toolbox of creatures that you can sacrifice for value, and 1/2 a bunch of useful lands that can be recurred for more value. In many ways, it's similar to the previous deck in that it's black and green and ready to come out on top in the long game.
As to your list, I like it quite a bit. I always felt Savra was kind of tough to make work well, but maybe she ends up doing well with the right support which you seem to have here. Any thoughts to Chainer, Dementia Master? I can see where the life payment would be a big deal since Savra is also costing life. But he seems like he fits in the recursion theme pretty well.
What about Gray Merchant of Asphodel and/or Kokusho, the Evening Star as ways to gain some much needed life as well as helping to close out the game? I know Savra helps with this as well, so maybe she is enough life gain to offset her own ability.
I have never been a fan of Worm Harvest but it seems like it could do good work here since the tokens are both colors. How good has this card been?
You do seem kind of light on the sac outlets. Has this ever come up as a problem? I do agree with one of the comments that Viscera Seer seems good for this deck. Maybe Carrion Feeder works as well. I was also disappointed that you had Phyrexian Plaguelord and replaced it with Yawgmoth. Not that it isn't a good idea, but I really like the Plaguelord and I don't see many lists running it (it usually isn't good enough for mine either).
Savra is basically Grave Pact in the command zone in this deck and I think that's probably the most BG rock midrange thing you can play in the command zone short of Deathrite or Pernicious Deed.
There's a lot of overlap conceptually with the previous deck (karador) we reviewed so some of what I have to say will probably overlap:
* Green Sun's Zenith plus Varolz, the Scar Striped plus Dryad Arbor would be a pretty solid set of changes that would improve consistency and functionally give you +2 sac outlets. I think Varolz's ability actually coincides with the gameplan even more than Karador, since you're probably fine to go ahead and eat some of your own dudes to make a 15/15 or something.
* Any deck that plays Genesis and Life from the Loam should consider playing entomb, and only not be playing it for a very good reason (e.g. desire to minimize tutors). As a side note, I think this deck would benefit from buried Alive enough to play it -- the combination of getting 3 dredge pieces, or genesis + plaguecrafter + etc. is very good. If it were my deck I most likely would just play Entomb.
* I'm not sure Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has enough support. I might be missing something. Maybe he's strong enough on his own too.
* I am not sure I would play Ostone in this deck. It's absolutely fine but it's not particularly strong. This feels like a deck where you can get by with just ench/artifact sweepers and then beat their planeswalkers to death, but I might be wrong.
* The lands matter package overall feels a little constrained in this deck. Like you'd maybe want to have a few more extra land drop effects or something - burgeoning, exploration type stuff, but there's not a lot of room for them. I don't know have any actual advice there just a comment.
* This is actually a weird deck that I think might benefit from *more* non-sweeper removal for enchantments and artifacts especially. Maybe like Pir's whim or Broken Bond or something? Whim has been exceptional for me so far. The way this deck looks to play out it feels like your edict spam will keep creatures in check. I could see going down a sweeper or two and up on stuff like Acidic Slime or Thrashing Brontodon.
Speaking of Brontodon, I think it is really a clutch card in this deck. triggers edicts, doesn't require a sac outlet to reuse with Volrath's + genesis, and has a more respectable body than rec sage. It has been reallllly good in my gitrog deck. I have made more than one person scoop to Volrath's+Brontodon. Build your own really crappy aura shards
Hope some of that helps. I really like the deck and have played a number of iterations with a lot of similar cards (including skullbriar and gitrog).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Value things I used to run:
Apprentice Necromancer
Reassembling Skeleton
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Doomed Necromancer
Smothering Abomination
Disciple of Bolas
Strands of Night
Mine was a fairly janky build, courtesy of a reasonably new to the format sort of attitude. It was still fun and did stuff, but this one definitely looks more focused. However, the black reanimation dorks were handy, as were things like Victimize and Smothering Abomination - that thing was a legitimate draw tank in Savra. Cards for what you're doing anyway is a no brainer.
I can confirm the value in this card for Savra - being both colours make her work twice as hard, it really is worth it. I also definitely think Gary and Koko could fit well here. They're both great for the big life swings that a commander like this could benefit from, and both game-ending spells in their own right.
The Deck is pretty color intensive as it stands BBB is a bit rough even running Urborg
Kokusho, the Evening Star has been in a small pile of cards that has never quite made the cut partially because when the list was initially created it was banned. Gray Merchant of Asphodel Lived in a zombie tribal list I had for a while. When it went away I didn't really think to port it over here, I'll give it a try.
I like it significantly better than Izoni, Thousand-Eyed I found spending the time & mana to bring back Izoni and then cast her wasn't worth it. Going big with Gaea's Cradle & Cabal Coffers and Life From the Loam it has been solid.
Occasionally I feel the lack of outlets but the deck can generally play a straight one for one control grind to buy time until I find them.
Green Sun's Zenith fits the reusable tutor thing I've got going on not being able to hit black creatures is a bit concerning as mostly I'm tutoring for answers. Varolz, the Scar-Striped lives in the same pile of near misses with Kokusho, the Evening Star he also has a significant drawback of costing 3 mana which I have a surplus of creatures at that CMC.
I've mostly tried to avoid single-use tutors.
Deck was already running Phyrexian Plaguelord seemed like an easy swap was generally really happy seeing Plaguelord over the years.
I recently consolidated several lists down to one non-budget list I used to run nevinyrral's disk as well the slot was taken by toxic deluge. So far I haven't missed the disk, Ostone is a viable cut next time I find something I NEED.
The lack of extra land drops is tied to the lack of ramp. I'd rather draw cards that do things later in the game than just drawing air. oracle of mul daya is a holdover from an earlier time when drawing cards was at a premium and just hasn't found it's way out.
I've been waiting literal years for a 4cmc Reclamation Sage so I can Birthing pod from Sage to Slime hitting targets along the way.
I've gone back and forth a few times between Viridian Zealot & Caustic Caterpillar in the end the cheaper card won out so when brontodon was printed I didn't really consider it due to these results and the absolute glut of 3 drops.
I've sat and looked at Apprentice Necromancer for a long time and it just hasn't gotten there, I'll add it to my next TCGplayer order. Reassembling Skeleton doesn't do much on its own and is mana intensive to recur. generally, I think Bloodghast is better. Sakura-Tribe Elder There's nothing I'm in a particular hurry to ramp to and dislike drawing air later in the game so I've avoided ramp spells. If one made the cut Steve would probably be it. Doomed Necromancer falls victim to its converted mana cost. Smothering Abomination, Disciple of Bolas were both in earlier iterations of the deck and got cut for various reason. I occasionally miss Disciple but the forced sacrifice of Abomination bothered me. Strands of Night 6 mana and a land feels like a steep price to pay. my other forms of recursion and relatively low mana costs are generally going to be less mana to bring things back.
Thank you all for your replies!
Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Green Black Control with Graveyard Advantages)
Standard
Probably Mono Red Sligh
Modern
Dredge
Legacy
Dredge
Maybe you don't sacrifice enough fodder, but I'm a huge fan of Pitiless Plunderer in sacrifice decks.
I personally like Big Game Hunter more than Bone Shredder. Plus it's fantastic with Survival of the Fittest.
With all your land recursion Memorial to Folly could work as a bad Genesis. Also, with your dredge/land package Azusa, Lost but Seeking is a really good ramp creature. Especially with all your sacrifice lands.
This deck looks like it has a hard time actually getting people dead in an efficient amount of time. Might be worth slotting in Craterhoof Behemoth to end the game with Worm Harvest.
The Ur-Dragon (WUBRG) - Changeling Combo Tribal
Chromium (WUB) - Artifact Beats
Progenitus (WUBRG) - Dredge
Damia, Sage of Stone (GBU) - Elf-storm Tendrils
My Cube Unpowered
My Peasant-ish/Tribal-ish Cube
This deck is actually surprisingly resilient to graveyard hate its very much an exhibition in redundancy. The only real game ending combo is Jarad, Golgari lich lord+ Lord of Extinction (sometimes Golgari Grave-Troll cameos for LOE)
That said doubling back to the Karador discussion ahead of me Collector Ouphe could be a thing here as I only run 3 artifacts.
Its a fine card just finding the slot is rough. I prefer thing that impact the board.
I like bone shredder more due to the Echo playing well with the various gravepacts
My most recent project of late has been cutting lands that come into play tapped more than not the Cycling lands are cantrips that occasionally "morph" into mana sources.
No single card has failed to impress me over the last couple of years as much as Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I'm not sure how but even in a windgrace lands matter list with 45+ lands she did less than nothing.
This is a legitimate concern. The way I end up playing it more than not I attempt to live in 2nd place and fly under the radar until I resolve Living death or Rise of the Dark Realms and create an avalanche of card advantage or simply combo out with Jarad
Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Green Black Control with Graveyard Advantages)
Standard
Probably Mono Red Sligh
Modern
Dredge
Legacy
Dredge
You could always meet her halfway with something like Wayward Swordtooth. It does well in my Nissa build.
This speaks to a need for immediate impact, to my mind. I would definitely look at getting Gray Merchant of Asphodel into the list. Totally feasible in a bicolour list, and recurring it will just get you there really quickly. Koko I can definitely see missing, purely because it requires a little more finagling and repetition to win with, but Gary is well worth it for immediate value and the possibility of being a really solid finisher.
If it wants any ramp at all it probably wants it on turn 1 or 2 before it starts casting more businessy spells - I am about 100% that it wants green sun's zenith and dryad arbor though. Arbor does a crapload of work in the deck, turning Crucible into a murder machine. And getting to 3 early is pretty good.
Edit: a few responses to responses from OP
* I think you would probably like Varolz more than you think. His regenerate ability has always been great for me in sac decks, combined with his ability to be tutored with GSZ (which is incredibly flexible in this deck). he does a heck of a lot in this type of deck for 3 mana. Only playable with GSZ though.
* I would not think of Entomb as a single use tutor in this deck. It's a card that starts your engine. You would really like to start every game with a dredger in the yard and once you have one you can basically repeatedly tutor. That is how I think of Entomb in the Gitrog Monster. Entomb is a tutor for a dredge piece that lets you zip through your library, so it's "functionally" reusable.
* Wickerbough Elder is the bridge creature you're looking for. Costs one extra green but it's also grotesque w Yawgmoth. and as a bonus it beats torpor orb.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I have built decks that just want to cultivate and play a couple signets or something, but for the most part if I'm in green I want that combination of a flexible non-telegraphing tutor that also ramps.
The non-telegraphing nature is really deceptively powerful as well. When it resolves the creature is on the battlefield, and your opponents do not receive priority. Sometimes this can mean you put the combo on the board with no real window for them to do anything if they don't know you're going for it (e.g. you GSZ for Jarad with Lord of Extinction on the battlefield, there is nothing they can do).
And if they pop Jarad or Lord in response to GSZ, you just make a different choice (get Skullwinder, for example).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Yeah, don't be like me that crams every tutour under the sun into your deck. Speaking from experience, while it's super cool the first few games to know you're playing 20% tutours in your deck and have created a super consistent gameplan, it is a novelty that wears thin soon unless you're in the cEDH pool or play such a demanding commander that you need that level of consistency.
When you get to the point of "Hmm, I wonder just how much this Imperial Seal would improve my deck..." you'll know you've gone too far. Don't be that guy that shows up with the $450 judge promo crappier version of Vampiric Tutor to the pick up game with nothing on the line. It's uhh...it's a pretty bad look.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Green Black Control with Graveyard Advantages)
Standard
Probably Mono Red Sligh
Modern
Dredge
Legacy
Dredge
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I look forward to chaining activations every turn and feeding the 20/20 token to Savra... not saying it's good but would be funny.
Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Green Black Control with Graveyard Advantages)
Standard
Probably Mono Red Sligh
Modern
Dredge
Legacy
Dredge