I was hoping to see if there was anything to discuss on Breya, Etherium Shaper Stax and some of the new Planeswalkers from War of the Spark. My playgroup tends to lean towards less competitive decks because of how our league is structured. Most decks are tuned well enough to have some power behind them and do unfair things, but it is often not the primary objective. So I would lump most decks in at 75% give or take a bit.
War of the Spark seems to bring a fair number of Planeswalkers that have some kind of Stax applications. Next to the obvious ones, War also brings Karn, the Great Creator, and Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor. Lots of seemingly great options for building a Planeswalker oriented Stax build. But obviously Breya, Etherium Shaper Stax gets a lot of value out of using Stax effects applied by Artifcats, options like Winter Orb that can be sacrificed.
Additionally, there are other great options from older sets that give your Planeswalkers applicable in a Stax deck.
Other than Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge, none of the planeswalkers from War of the Spark are game ending. Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God is written as game ending, and may even be applicable in this deck, but most of them are coming from older sets. While not directly featuring a game ending ultimate, many are good enough to either force a concession or tax a player even more until you can just win the game.
So Let's Discuss!
In a Multiplayer Commander setting, what do you feel the optimal number of Stax effects are?
How many planeswalkers would constitute critical mass without being overkill?
What else?
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Dack Fayden - Swings the tide on mana potentially. Jaya Ballard - Only if your deck will support using the mana for instants and sorcery. Saheeli Rai - Copying artifacts for additional mana. Tamiyo, the Moon Sage- Used as a Stax effect on a permanent.
One thing I've wanted to put together is Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God and Aminatou, the Fateshifter with Oath of Teferi or a The Chain Veil activation.
They can both use the [-1] of Aminatou to target the other to reset them, so you'll get infinite uses out of them.
I have an Aminatou superfriends and a Will and Rowen Kenrith superfriends decks, so I'm not able to support Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God in them. I literally need Breya colors to run this combo, so going to keep an eye on this thread. Aminatou, the Fateshifter is great with planeswalkers, but even better with the new ones that don't have their own way of resetting their loyalty, so she gives them a chance to be able to use loyalty again.
A long time ago, before the French comitee banned her in the Duel Commander, I played the following items, but I'm sure that can be a strong package to start on a multiplayer list:
Dack Fayden - Swings the tide on mana potentially. Jaya Ballard - Only if your deck will support using the mana for instants and sorcery. Saheeli Rai - Copying artifacts for additional mana. Tamiyo, the Moon Sage- Used as a Stax effect on a permanent.
I definitely forgot about Saheeli Rai. She is capable of so many shenanigans on her own! There are so many potential options for Planeswalkers in this space, but I am curious what ones people think are bare essentials, especially ones that start lower on the CMC end of the spectrum. Is stretching up to 5 and 6 mana too greedy under your own Stax effects? I don't think I have ever really played a Stax commander other than a really loose Ghave, Guru of Spores deck way back in 2012|2013.
What would your top 8 picks be if you were to streamline a list of Planeswalkers you consider Stax essentials in WUBR?
One thing I've wanted to put together is Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God and Aminatou, the Fateshifter with Oath of Teferi or a The Chain Veil activation.
They can both use the [-1] of Aminatou to target the other to reset them, so you'll get infinite uses out of them.
I have an Aminatou superfriends and a Will and Rowen Kenrith superfriends decks, so I'm not able to support Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God in them. I literally need Breya colors to run this combo, so going to keep an eye on this thread. Aminatou, the Fateshifter is great with planeswalkers, but even better with the new ones that don't have their own way of resetting their loyalty, so she gives them a chance to be able to use loyalty again.
This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping would surface in this discussion. My play group tends to lean towards more fair games, but most of us tend to run dirty tricks to put a game away if things start going long or a table becomes unmanageable by any fair means. I also like how discreet this combo can be, Aminatou, the Fateshifter isn't much of an immediate threat, even with The Chain Veil. Drawing into Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God could quickly put the game away for a mere 5 mana to any unsuspecting players.
A long time ago, before the French comitee banned her in the Duel Commander, I played the following items, but I'm sure that can be a strong package to start on a multiplayer list:
Were those the only Stax cards you ran? Just a small tutor package into a few select oppressive options? Or did you tax everyone into a favorable board position for yourself? I am a big fan of the idea of things like Smokestack in Breya, Etherium Shaper, allowing you to help manage things beyond land hate and making use of her ability to boot. Additionally you can start creating situations where you can get big value of Scrap Mastery. Any experience with things like that in Breya? I know she tends to fall into a Combo Commander category, which I personally try to avoid for the sanity of the other players in my group. They already struggle to keep up with The Mimeoplasm killing them with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon some of the time. I like having outs like that though, so Sharuum the Hegemon + Phyrexian Metamorph | Sculpting Steel is on my radar for quick fail-safes.
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Keep in mind that I played on Duel Commander 1v1. So I didn't needed many options to stax due the use of creature/land removals and some counterspells, and Balance. With a good timed removal, the planeswalkers could generate the advantage needed to win the game.
I had many games with Breya, and it had a very good win ratio against most archetypes on Duel, making it to be banned in 1v1. With one of many cmc 2 mana dorks on T2, on T3 I had every option to control the opponent (wrath, MLD, counterspell), or to put pressure on the battlefild (Breya or a planeswalker).
I see Scrap Mastery only good in a non-planeswalker build, because it needs more artifacts than the ramp ones. Smokestack make a good work with planeswalkers that creates tokens, you could make it up to three or four counters and set the table back to the start very fast, while you keep your board.
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge is worth a test. Obviously Breya can provide cost reduction of 3 on her own basically. With most of the Stax cards being artifacts, there should be value in getting them back from graveyard, and that ultimate is only 3 turns worth AND still leaves him on 1 loyalty.
Teferi, Time Raveler isn't all that amazing, but 3 mana PW always end up being better in Stax environments. Just plusing for loyalty for no effect, to get some incremental value from the [-3] for tempo I think is worth testing. The static effect is good against counterspells.
Because of Will Kenrith I'd play Rowan Kenrith, there is just too much value to be passed up on partner.
Even though Dovan Baan has a Stax ultimate, getting him to it is a different story, so I wouldn't be suckered in by that.
[EDIT]
Also it's rumored that Ugin is..
6 mana 4 loyalty
Colorless spell you cast cost 2 less to cast
+1: create a 2/2 spirit. Exile top card of your library face down, you may look at it. When the spirit leaves the battlefield, put the exile card into your hand.
-3: destroy target permanent thats one or more colors
We will have to see if that pans out, by if so then I think it should definitely have a spot in the deck.
Smokestack make a good work with planeswalkers that creates tokens, you could make it up to three or four counters and set the table back to the start very fast, while you keep your board.
I find this route appealing. Lots of walkers in these colors make Thopter tokens, which not only allow you to feed to cards like Smokestack and Tangle Wire, but also allow you to provide endless fodder for cards like Time Sieve. It also gives you Skullclamp and Tezzeret targets for turning into 5/5's.I am a fan of not having Walkers be a main plan for killing players or trying to hope they concede to an ultimate or two.
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge is worth a test. Obviously Breya can provide cost reduction of 3 on her own basically. With most of the Stax cards being artifacts, there should be value in getting them back from graveyard, and that ultimate is only 3 turns worth AND still leaves him on 1 loyalty.
Tezzeret seems strong, being able to not only put the game away with a flurry of + activations, but also carrying a passive Commander tax reduction alongside it. I don't see anything that would generally fall into a flavor text kind of category with him, outside of not meeting the requirements of critical mass for either creatures or planeswalkers... or both. But I think it is so generally applicable that it is strong. Being able to sac Breya to herself means you can always find value in his passive ability.
Teferi, Time Raveler isn't all that amazing, but 3 mana PW always end up being better in Stax environments. Just plusing for loyalty for no effect, to get some incremental value from the [-3] for tempo I think is worth testing. The static effect is good against counterspells.
I am not super hot on Teferi, but he provides a nice opening for your other walkers to start hitting the board running. Sometimes the + ability may be relevant, and you can probably find ways to use the -3 with some regularity in a multiplayer setting. I definitely agree that at 3 mana it is worth testing out.
Also it's rumored that Ugin is..
6 mana 4 loyalty
Colorless spell you cast cost 2 less to cast
+1: create a 2/2 spirit. Exile top card of your library face down, you may look at it. When the spirit leaves the battlefield, put the exile card into your hand.
-3: destroy target permanent thats one or more colors
We will have to see if that pans out, by if so then I think it should definitely have a spot in the deck.
As far as token generating planeswalkers, they are not incredible synergistic on the whole, meaning their other abilities don't particularly help towards Stax.
The "best" being Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Saheeli, the Gifted for this deck imo.
Sure something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion would be fine to resolve, but the expensive and the abilities are not all that relevant here.
The thing is that Smokestack and Tanglewire are in general more manageable as you are getting incremental advantage with planeswalkers without having to invest further mana.
Even if you are getting to the stage where you are sacrificing lands to Smokestack, because opponents are relying on mana to get ahead, they'll be taxed more than you at that stage.
I was hoping to see if there was anything to discuss on Breya, Etherium Shaper Stax and some of the new Planeswalkers from War of the Spark. My playgroup tends to lean towards less competitive decks because of how our league is structured. Most decks are tuned well enough to have some power behind them and do unfair things, but it is often not the primary objective. So I would lump most decks in at 75% give or take a bit.
War of the Spark seems to bring a fair number of Planeswalkers that have some kind of Stax applications. Next to the obvious ones, War also brings Karn, the Great Creator, and Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor. Lots of seemingly great options for building a Planeswalker oriented Stax build. But obviously Breya, Etherium Shaper Stax gets a lot of value out of using Stax effects applied by Artifcats, options like Winter Orb that can be sacrificed.
Additionally, there are other great options from older sets that give your Planeswalkers applicable in a Stax deck.
Other than Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge, none of the planeswalkers from War of the Spark are game ending. Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God is written as game ending, and may even be applicable in this deck, but most of them are coming from older sets. While not directly featuring a game ending ultimate, many are good enough to either force a concession or tax a player even more until you can just win the game.
So Let's Discuss!
In a Multiplayer Commander setting, what do you feel the optimal number of Stax effects are?
How many planeswalkers would constitute critical mass without being overkill?
What else?
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Chandra, Bold Pyromancer, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Koth of the Hammer, Ral Zarek, Saheeli, the Gifted, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Teferi, Timebender, Tezzeret the Schemer, Tezzeret the Seeker, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Venser, the Sojourner, Will Kenrith.
Dack Fayden - Swings the tide on mana potentially.
Jaya Ballard - Only if your deck will support using the mana for instants and sorcery.
Saheeli Rai - Copying artifacts for additional mana.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage- Used as a Stax effect on a permanent.
One thing I've wanted to put together is Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God and Aminatou, the Fateshifter with Oath of Teferi or a The Chain Veil activation.
They can both use the [-1] of Aminatou to target the other to reset them, so you'll get infinite uses out of them.
I have an Aminatou superfriends and a Will and Rowen Kenrith superfriends decks, so I'm not able to support Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God in them. I literally need Breya colors to run this combo, so going to keep an eye on this thread.
Aminatou, the Fateshifter is great with planeswalkers, but even better with the new ones that don't have their own way of resetting their loyalty, so she gives them a chance to be able to use loyalty again.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Planeswalkers:
Ajani, Caller of the Pride, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Daretti, Scrap Savant, Dovin Baan, Jace, Architect of Thought, Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, Narset Transcendent, Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh, Ral Zarek, Saheeli Rai, Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, Teferi, Temporal Archmage,
Stax: Armageddon, Ravages of War, Static Orb, Winter Orb
Removal: Council's Judgment, Damnation, Supreme Verdict, Toxic Deluge, Wrath of God
Tatyova|Sisay|Zurgo|Breya|Chisei|Marchesa|Olivia|KaradorLegacy|4fun|4fun|Modern|Frontier|StandardI definitely forgot about Saheeli Rai. She is capable of so many shenanigans on her own! There are so many potential options for Planeswalkers in this space, but I am curious what ones people think are bare essentials, especially ones that start lower on the CMC end of the spectrum. Is stretching up to 5 and 6 mana too greedy under your own Stax effects? I don't think I have ever really played a Stax commander other than a really loose Ghave, Guru of Spores deck way back in 2012|2013.
What would your top 8 picks be if you were to streamline a list of Planeswalkers you consider Stax essentials in WUBR?
This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping would surface in this discussion. My play group tends to lean towards more fair games, but most of us tend to run dirty tricks to put a game away if things start going long or a table becomes unmanageable by any fair means. I also like how discreet this combo can be, Aminatou, the Fateshifter isn't much of an immediate threat, even with The Chain Veil. Drawing into Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God could quickly put the game away for a mere 5 mana to any unsuspecting players.
Were those the only Stax cards you ran? Just a small tutor package into a few select oppressive options? Or did you tax everyone into a favorable board position for yourself? I am a big fan of the idea of things like Smokestack in Breya, Etherium Shaper, allowing you to help manage things beyond land hate and making use of her ability to boot. Additionally you can start creating situations where you can get big value of Scrap Mastery. Any experience with things like that in Breya? I know she tends to fall into a Combo Commander category, which I personally try to avoid for the sanity of the other players in my group. They already struggle to keep up with The Mimeoplasm killing them with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon some of the time. I like having outs like that though, so Sharuum the Hegemon + Phyrexian Metamorph | Sculpting Steel is on my radar for quick fail-safes.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
My tutors was Enlightened Tutor, Fabricate, Demonic Tutor, Tainted Pact, and Inventors' Fair. So, three tutors for artifacts, and two others for anything. And some planeswalkers I used has a draw or put-in-hand ability.
I had many games with Breya, and it had a very good win ratio against most archetypes on Duel, making it to be banned in 1v1. With one of many cmc 2 mana dorks on T2, on T3 I had every option to control the opponent (wrath, MLD, counterspell), or to put pressure on the battlefild (Breya or a planeswalker).
I see Scrap Mastery only good in a non-planeswalker build, because it needs more artifacts than the ramp ones. Smokestack make a good work with planeswalkers that creates tokens, you could make it up to three or four counters and set the table back to the start very fast, while you keep your board.
Tatyova|Sisay|Zurgo|Breya|Chisei|Marchesa|Olivia|KaradorLegacy|4fun|4fun|Modern|Frontier|StandardChandra, Torch of Defiance, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, Tezzeret the Schemer, Will Kenrith, Teferi, Time Raveler, Dack Fayden, Karn, the Great Creator, Dovin, Hand of Control, Aminatou, the Fateshifter, Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge.
Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge is worth a test. Obviously Breya can provide cost reduction of 3 on her own basically. With most of the Stax cards being artifacts, there should be value in getting them back from graveyard, and that ultimate is only 3 turns worth AND still leaves him on 1 loyalty.
Teferi, Time Raveler isn't all that amazing, but 3 mana PW always end up being better in Stax environments. Just plusing for loyalty for no effect, to get some incremental value from the [-3] for tempo I think is worth testing. The static effect is good against counterspells.
Because of Will Kenrith I'd play Rowan Kenrith, there is just too much value to be passed up on partner.
Even though Dovan Baan has a Stax ultimate, getting him to it is a different story, so I wouldn't be suckered in by that.
[EDIT]
Also it's rumored that Ugin is..
Colorless spell you cast cost 2 less to cast
+1: create a 2/2 spirit. Exile top card of your library face down, you may look at it. When the spirit leaves the battlefield, put the exile card into your hand.
-3: destroy target permanent thats one or more colors
We will have to see if that pans out, by if so then I think it should definitely have a spot in the deck.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I find this route appealing. Lots of walkers in these colors make Thopter tokens, which not only allow you to feed to cards like Smokestack and Tangle Wire, but also allow you to provide endless fodder for cards like Time Sieve. It also gives you Skullclamp and Tezzeret targets for turning into 5/5's.I am a fan of not having Walkers be a main plan for killing players or trying to hope they concede to an ultimate or two.
Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek in builds with Thopter generators is a great way to throw things to Breya, Etherium Shaper.
Tezzeret seems strong, being able to not only put the game away with a flurry of + activations, but also carrying a passive Commander tax reduction alongside it. I don't see anything that would generally fall into a flavor text kind of category with him, outside of not meeting the requirements of critical mass for either creatures or planeswalkers... or both. But I think it is so generally applicable that it is strong. Being able to sac Breya to herself means you can always find value in his passive ability.
I am not super hot on Teferi, but he provides a nice opening for your other walkers to start hitting the board running. Sometimes the + ability may be relevant, and you can probably find ways to use the -3 with some regularity in a multiplayer setting. I definitely agree that at 3 mana it is worth testing out.
That seems saucy!
Direction
The Thopter plan seems pretty beastly with various cards like Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Descent into Madness, etc. Especially when you start adding things like Opposition to start hitting the leftovers.
I do also see lists that kind of work in creature Stax effects like Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Fatespinner, and so on.
How much room does Breya have in lists for things like that? I suspect it comes at the cost of Planeswalkers more than anything.
I should have a conceptualized list here sometime tomorrow that I am going to play test a bit. Would love to see what others are conceptualizing.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
As far as token generating planeswalkers, they are not incredible synergistic on the whole, meaning their other abilities don't particularly help towards Stax.
The "best" being Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Saheeli, the Gifted for this deck imo.
Sure something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion would be fine to resolve, but the expensive and the abilities are not all that relevant here.
The thing is that Smokestack and Tanglewire are in general more manageable as you are getting incremental advantage with planeswalkers without having to invest further mana.
Even if you are getting to the stage where you are sacrificing lands to Smokestack, because opponents are relying on mana to get ahead, they'll be taxed more than you at that stage.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith