People keep saying this, but I'm not sure its actually true. Other colors and combos would certainly benefit, but to be honest they aren't going to benefit that much compared to the options they already have. Adding Geddon effects would make UW a little bit better, but it would make RW significantly better, because it matters more to RW to get it as an option. RW also is one of the better positioned color pairs to take advantage of mld as mld does a great deal to help aggro, while RW is primarily an aggro color. BW would probably benefit tremendously as well, but doesn't need it as much.
Honestly i don't how the "keep the game in the early stages thanks to MLD and win with inefficient and constant attacks from my weenies" strategy can actually be any better than "keep the game in the early stages thanks to MLD and win with fast combos or my high-powered general".
Kaalia with MLD can eat any boros for breakfast.
Aggro is still weaker because of more opponents and higher life totals, the abundance of lands is just a factor and not even the major one.
It's somewhat mind-boggling to me that we're still all over the place. I was under the impression that we're discussing how RW being weak is a cultural phenomena. And this thread seems to be indicating that there might be some substance to that.
Of course there is substance to that. Have you seen the boros generals?
boros players wanting it to be a cultural phenomena doesn't make it so. Good cards and bad cards exist. Good generals and bad generals exist.Better colors and worst colors exist. Everything else is a consequence of this.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Again, you and others seem to think that I’m arguing for Boros being the best colors in Magic. I’m not, they’re not the best by far, and really they’re probably the worst. What I’m saying is that making it’s strongest assets culturally unacceptable is the reason why we all say it sucks, when it doesn’t have to if we are more accepting of meaner strategy.
What I’m saying is that making it’s strongest assets culturally unacceptable is the reason why we all say it sucks, when it doesn’t have to if we are more accepting of meaner strategy.
And you are ignoring a huge part of boros' weaknesses by thinking that "meaner strategies" will be help by much.
You are just focusing on the "boros sucks at ramp" problem, with a little of "boros sucks at card advantage"
You also have "boros sucks at generals", "boros sucks at wincon" and "boros sucks at bombs" too.
--note, red has a few of these kind of bomb effects like thieves' auction but lordy who wants to resolve that
The colors are just objectively poor in EDH, and then you can stack that with how hideously awful the boros generals are and it makes boros very bad.
This guy said it right
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
[quote from="Pokken »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/806098-boris-sucks-is-a-culture-problem?comment=70"]
* Bombs - White and red have the fewest crazy bombs by far. Where's the stuff like rise of the dark realms and expropriate and Tooth and Nail?
--note, red has a few of these kind of bomb effects like thieves' auction but lordy who wants to resolve that
The colors are just objectively poor in EDH, and then you can stack that with how hideously awful the boros generals are and it makes boros very bad.
This guy said it right
Red has some really bomby cards, too. Like Insurrection is not the same level as Expropriate or Tooth and Nail but close to rise.
Red has some really bomby cards, too. Like Insurrection is not the same level as Expropriate or Tooth and Nail but close to rise.
You listed only 1 example and you even admitted that it's not a really good example, so i think you answered yourself
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
The best Boros has is Depala, Pilot Exemplar. She is cheap to cast, has a flexible mana sink when you have spare mana, draws you only dwarves and vehicles when using her mana sink, provides a reason for more tribal dwarf cards. Her only downside? Being forced to play with subpar dwarf and vehicle cards. But that is a fixable issue through new cards as gets better with each new good dwarf and vehicle card printed like Weatherlight, Conqueror's Galleon, and Aethershield Artificer. As she has lots of room to grow as a commander. That if any current Boros commander were to see more competitive play in the future, it would be her.
Again, you and others seem to think that I’m arguing for Boros being the best colors in Magic. I’m not, they’re not the best by far, and really they’re probably the worst. What I’m saying is that making it’s strongest assets culturally unacceptable is the reason why we all say it sucks, when it doesn’t have to if we are more accepting of meaner strategy.
People do get that, they are saying its not accurate. MLD could easily be used to better ends by other color pairs, again deflating Boros' position.
But more importantly to me is MLD is used poorly the few times I see it played. Someone is way behind and nukes the lands to slow the game to a crawl and hope they can pull ahead despite that not working when they had lands. If someone lands a Geddon onto an empty board with a hasted Kaalia on board and a full grip? Grats you win, no salt. But lets be honest about how its used WAY too often.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
People keep saying this, but I'm not sure its actually true. Other colors and combos would certainly benefit, but to be honest they aren't going to benefit that much compared to the options they already have. Adding Geddon effects would make UW a little bit better, but it would make RW significantly better, because it matters more to RW to get it as an option. RW also is one of the better positioned color pairs to take advantage of mld as mld does a great deal to help aggro, while RW is primarily an aggro color. BW would probably benefit tremendously as well, but doesn't need it as much.
Honestly i don't how the "keep the game in the early stages thanks to MLD and win with inefficient and constant attacks from my weenies" strategy can actually be any better than "keep the game in the early stages thanks to MLD and win with fast combos or my high-powered general".
Kaalia with MLD can eat any boros for breakfast.
Aggro is still weaker because of more opponents and higher life totals, the abundance of lands is just a factor and not even the major one.
It's somewhat mind-boggling to me that we're still all over the place. I was under the impression that we're discussing how RW being weak is a cultural phenomena. And this thread seems to be indicating that there might be some substance to that.
Of course there is substance to that. Have you seen the boros generals?
boros players wanting it to be a cultural phenomena doesn't make it so. Good cards and bad cards exist. Good generals and bad generals exist.Better colors and worst colors exist. Everything else is a consequence of this.
I think that the issue is you didn't actually understand the post. I'm not saying that aggro with mld is better than combo with mld, nor did I ever make that claim. What I said, repeatedly, is that combo strategies benefit only a little from mld because they are already very good, while aggro benefits tremendously because it needs to lock the game into the early rounds more than combo does. Combo with mld backup is still going to be better than aggro with mld backup, but since combo was already good its not getting as much value added by running mld, while aggro, being an iffy strategy, gets a lot of value added. Theres a lot of reasons for this. One is that combo wins tend to be discreet, single turn affairs, which means you are typically better off just firing off the combo if you have it rather than casting the mld spell, so the mld spell serves to slow the game down while you try to get the combo, whereas for an aggro deck it can be used to slow the game down, but your path to victory is attacking with creatures, and mld let's you essentially lock in the board state for a few turns. Combo doesn't really need that most of the time (if combo has a winning board state it's winning right away) while aggro can have a winning board state if nothing significantly changes over the next few turns (and mld stops things other than lands from significantly changing).
Even control doesn't benefit as much as aggro, as control already has plenty of effective ways to control the game. It certainly gets better, but again not by much. Mld would just be another tool in the toolbox and often not the best one, while for aggro mld is one of the best things the deck can do.
RW happens to be a color combo with good access to mld. Any combination with RW in it gets the same and more, BW gets tutors and Desolation Angel, etc. Again though, most of those color combinations have other strategies that mld aggro has to compete with, while Boros doesn't have many. Boros, like other two color combos that want to use mld, also has a leg up on 3+ color combos in that it's color needs are pretty mild, so it's easier to recover from wiping the lands if need be.
Would an Azorious control deck that packs geddon be better than a Boros aggro deck that runs mld? Certainly. The difference is that the Azorious control deck would already have been that good without geddon, while the Boros aggro deck would be a lot better with mld than without.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
A thing that bothers me about this thread is emphasizing MLD as a tool of WR too much - both as a pro active option as well as something another color (combination) could abuse better. Bombs don't necessarily define a colors' strength.
No.But all of them are better because they not only have those bombs at their disposal but they have a ton of suitable cards around them as well.
As far as ramp goes i don't think WR is too far behind any color other than GX and Bx because it can utilize mana rocks more or less like all others.
Removal and board wipes are actually decent, but other colors did catch up in that area over the past few years - i even heard people complaining about G having Ezuri's Predation, lol.
The most significant disadvantage is card draw that's on par with the others. And while it isn't, it would be fine if it weren't for my major gripe with WR...
Abysmal Commanders!
In non-competitive metas virtually all color combinations can keep up with each other, if they have a few decent options sitting in the zone. Given a well-built deck, that is. Combat is essential, and the few commanders that don't have to rely on it are mostly aweful and/or overcosted.
Sooner or later, i will "have to" build a deck in these colors alone, but if i were to choose right now i'd have to choose between Archangel Avacyn/Avacyn, the PurifierDepala, Pilot Exemplar and Firesong and Sunspeaker. I don't know a single color combination, with such few interesting concepts and techs.
A thing that bothers me about this thread is emphasizing MLD as a tool of WR too much - both as a pro active option as well as something another color (combination) could abuse better. Bombs don't necessarily define a colors' strength.
No.But all of them are better because they not only have those bombs at their disposal but they have a ton of suitable cards around them as well.
As far as ramp goes i don't think WR is too far behind any color other than GX and Bx because it can utilize mana rocks more or less like all others.
Removal and board wipes are actually decent, but other colors did catch up in that area over the past few years - i even heard people complaining about G having Ezuri's Predation, lol.
The most significant disadvantage is card draw that's on par with the others. And while it isn't, it would be fine if it weren't for my major gripe with WR...
Abysmal Commanders!
In non-competitive metas virtually all color combinations can keep up with each other, if they have a few decent options sitting in the zone. Given a well-built deck, that is. Combat is essential, and the few commanders that don't have to rely on it are mostly aweful and/or overcosted.
Sooner or later, i will "have to" build a deck in these colors alone, but if i were to choose right now i'd have to choose between Archangel Avacyn/Avacyn, the PurifierDepala, Pilot Exemplar and Firesong and Sunspeaker. I don't know a single color combination, with such few interesting concepts and techs.
This post gets it. In competitive metas, Boros is toast. In uncompetitive metas, Boros sucking is mostly a culture problem. It's the in between metas where mld can help. And yes, Boros' biggest deficit is it's commanders.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, this is quite enlightning on the state of boros commander.
She surely has potential, but as you said her supported tribes are really, really weak.
But regarding mana cost and other parameters, she's really good and other boros commanders should follow her example.
Everyone is understanding that more MLD would be a boon to boros. But what people are saying is that boon isn't high and isn't worth it. No one want to make games more long and tedious just to lightly improve a color combination that would still be far behind the others.
I don't even think MLD would improve boros % winrate by much. Knowing that any boros deck can use a lot of MLD, someone would immediatly try to eliminate them as soon as possible, instead of having a more relaxed attitude like the one there is now.
So it would improve boros strenght, but also greatly increase its threat level.
Bombs don't necessarily define a colors' strength.
No one said that bombs are the only factor or the most important factor. But as i said, boros as terrible advantage, terrible resources, terrible commanders and terrible wincons. Add terrible bombs too and, well, you get the picture.
Surely having bombs on par with BUG would help boros a lot. It won't make it viable alone, but it surely would help without being lame and detrimental as MLD.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Well, this is quite enlightning on the state of boros commander.
She surely has potential, but as you said her supported tribes are really, really weak.
But regarding mana cost and other parameters, she's really good and other boros commanders should follow her example.
I don't know that I think Depala is actually the BEST boros commander, but of the ones I've played she's probably the most fun, and the most original. I do think they should make more like her, and give her more support too.
FS&SS was a cool idea, but in practice the bolt part of the ability is a little tough to make impactful enough (and, with some exceptions, risks stranding really weak cards in your hand if FS&SS aren't on the board), so it's mostly just a way to gain a ton of life off blasphemous act etc, with a few lightning helixes thrown in. Plus they were overcosted. So a nice effort, but didn't live up to expectations imo.
Plus most of the cards best suited to a more tuned Depala deck are very cheap to pick up right now even as foils. So she currently also has that going of being an affordable commander for those on a budget.
I personally see myself as a casual player but I am apparently more of a competitive player. Now competitive does not mean land destruction, but land destruction can be used to get an extra edge on others.
With CEDH, one big reason a lot of Boros commanders are considered casual or low-powered is because of "how many 'lives' they provide and at what cost". Depala is easy mode as you can likely cast her 3+ times in a given game with her base cmc of 3 which makes more resilient for her and the deck. Gisela, while unique with her replacement abilities, is considered basically hard mode for the deck because she basically offers 1-2 casts in the game because of her base cmc of 7 and the deck might fall apart without her due to a now exorbitant cost from recasts.
The next one understanding how the Boros commander can "Affect the game around them". Those that simply swing and hit face are considered to have a lower impact than their competition. In part because they are typically going after just one person at a time over several turns. What makes their competition different? They are digging through your deck to provide you more cards, they are furthering your board presence, hamstringing their opponents, or are winning in a single turn. Possibly in addition to swinging.
Finally, there is the matter of Boros commanders of "What direction are you being nudged in?". This last bit may not make sense on the surface, but this is more about what cards the commander nudges you to play with it to get the deck to work. If you are being nudged to play with hidden gems or with established good cards, then it seems like a no-brainer. However there are commanders that nudge you towards playing with less powerful cards which creates an overall weaker deck. This area however is the most flexible and fixable for any commander, even Boros colored ones, as new cards in the 99 can change that.
Well, this is quite enlightning on the state of boros commander.
She surely has potential, but as you said her supported tribes are really, really weak.
But regarding mana cost and other parameters, she's really good and other boros commanders should follow her example.
Everyone is understanding that more MLD would be a boon to boros. But what people are saying is that boon isn't high and isn't worth it. No one want to make games more long and tedious just to lightly improve a color combination that would still be far behind the others.
I don't even think MLD would improve boros % winrate by much. Knowing that any boros deck can use a lot of MLD, someone would immediatly try to eliminate them as soon as possible, instead of having a more relaxed attitude like the one there is now.
So it would improve boros strenght, but also greatly increase its threat level.
Bombs don't necessarily define a colors' strength.
No one said that bombs are the only factor or the most important factor. But as i said, boros as terrible advantage, terrible resources, terrible commanders and terrible wincons. Add terrible bombs too and, well, you get the picture.
Surely having bombs on par with BUG would help boros a lot. It won't make it viable alone, but it surely would help without being lame and detrimental as MLD.
Thanks for finally addressing the argument instead of a strawman. There is actually room for disagreement over how much Boros would benefit from mld. Having experience running mld in Boros (and other) aggro, I've seen it perform quite well. It doesn't slow down games, instead it closes them out. Of course, this is if it's used correctly, and judging by your bias against it I assume you've had plenty of experience with people using it stupidly. It's an opinion that it's lame, and the longer I've played the more I've come to believe that it's an uninformed one, and often hypocritical to boot. As I've said before, people will run fast combo backed up by tight control packages whose goal is to win as early as possible while shutting down everyone else's strategy, and then throw a hissy fit because someone slapped down a geddon and wrecked their plans. I can get casual players who dislike fast combo, stax, and hard control like counter walls and repeated capsize, but I can't wrap my head around people who are just fine with most, if not all, cutthroat strategies but then think mld is the lamest devil outside of a Halloween play at church.
I do think there's merit to the idea of Boros' flying under the radar and this being less likely if mld was more common, but mod would only really benefit Boros aggro, which is already going to be a target because it threatens to knock someone out of the game early. It will definitely make it less likely that players c and d sit by as Boros beats in player As face I'd they know a geddon might suddenly cripple them and let Boros finish them, but if you're playing Boros aggro you'd rather be taken as a potential threat because you are then written off because you aren't, and it's certainly better than getting targeted anyway which tends to happen to aggro. Feel free to explain to me how the guy who advances his board and starts hitting life totals doesn't usually draw hate already without the threat of blowing up lands. In a more skilled meta his opponents are more likely to correctly assess threats and be suspicious of the sultai player ramping quietly, but they also would be if mld was allowed.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Boros is one of my favorite color schemes, and I used to build a lot of R, W, RW, or RWB decks so I wanted to chime in.
One of the boros commanders that was most effective to me was Brion Stoutarm. He has very obvious "I Win" synergy with cards like Serra Avatar, if you're looking to cheese. But most importantly I felt his ability plays very effectively with the colors strengths, using cards like Threaten, Word of Seizing, and even hidden gems like Jabari's Influence to gain control and fling cards back.
I think people are putting too much emphasis in this format on card draw, while I think it's important I'd say ramp & tutoring are far more important. To counteract this Red/White needs to be VERY efficient, as long as each card creates innate card advantage whether it be Kiki-Jiki, Flametongue Kavu, Imperial Recruiter, Sun Titan, Restoration Angel, Karmic Guide, etc. and spells you have some of the best removal whether it be the Swords/Path or Return to Dust and board sweeps. And Insurrection and Vicious Shadows are really strong finishers. The shortcoming of card draw can be made up with things like Land Tax, Tithe, and a lot of other cards that can give you CA in lands, and just some of the go-to mana rocks are very useful but I try to really go light since you really want things like Austere Command and Akroma's Veangance, in fact if you can mix in indestructibility with Boros charm and things that give you indestructibility you can use that as a game ender.
For the shortcomings of Boros though I'd say:
1) It's not particular fast. Tends to be more mid-range agro based, I think there's a definite window it can dominate mid to early late game but if game goes on really long I remember falling dead to a lot of blue control decks and G/B/x recursion engines that will get like... some graveyard/Greater Good engine going and go retarded and get a million lands in play, or some Child of Alara decks that ramp and can blow up the board and drop planeswalkers and ult, these are just examples where as a Red/White you don't have the same engine and will fall to those kind of decks if you allow them to get their enchantments and broken engines going.
2) Lack of tutoring and recursion. You can't guarantee to be able to get the cards you want, this limits the type of decks you can really construct, if you're putting together a lot of combo pieces or synergies you can't you need to rely more on redundancy to ensure it'll operate consistently.
3) There's not a lot of just ridiculously "unfair" creatures and spells, Boros tends to be very straightforward removal, sweeps, and combat based. There's just not a lot of Tidespout Tyrants, Memnarchs, Avenger of Zendikar into haste KO's, Praetors and such as much as some of the other Colors, exeption maybe Iona but there's reasons she's shunned so a lot of people don't play her.
4) The format itself. This is just my experience in past, but people play so pillow fort that the style of Boros agro ends up being the decks that takes out 1, 2, or 3 players and loses-- it's because so many decks these days don't have aggro in mind, Boros wants to attack and play tempo and so many decks just want to Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and defend so just by the nature of the deck you will always be the guy with Inferno Titans and angels up that the lazy playgroup sees as a threat, group cucks you most of the game, then the control player that everyone ignored much of the game swoops in at end unchecked and wins it like you warned people he would. This is more of the psychological side of the game that I feel is a flaw, but I'm afraid will always be there, in Commander there's sort of a stigma in aggressive decks that swing for damage where there is none (amazingly) for everyone turtling for an hour and losing in one turn to someone "going off", it's become the sad nature of this format.
many of his you shouldn't play cards are actually quite valid to r/w, but articles like this, from someone with a platform like his, speak volumes to push against acceptance of valid game plans to r/w. his words have weight.
There's 1 mono-white, 1 mono-red, and no rw cards in that list. There are 3 mono-blue. Just saying.
And yes, most people don't enjoy playing against mld. This format prioritizes enjoyment over balance - not that embracing mld would balance the format, but it might help.
Rw does fun things that don't suck and are also powerful. Stop focusing on only mld. Look to the sunforger, for he shall lead us to glory.
many of his you shouldn't play cards are actually quite valid to r/w, but articles like this, from someone with a platform like his, speak volumes to push against acceptance of valid game plans to r/w. his words have weight.
Man what a biased point.
A black card is on the list too. A green card is on the list too. 3 blue cards are on the list. 3 colorless are on the list.
This thread made me realize that the only culture problem is with people obsessed with boros.
Do you really pretend to win aggroing with anya, merciless angel, savannah lions and flametongue kavu? Do you really think that an armaggedon is the only thing needed to make these cards viable?
It's like a blue player whining because he can't win with chisei, heart of oceans.
Some cards suck, deal with it. All the boros commanders are terrible, deal with it.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I guess Boros is certainly not one of the "best" color combinations out there, as many pointed out already. Also, most of the commanders in that color combination are very combat focused. But for me Depala, Pilot Exemplar, Firesong and Sunspeaker and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight have always been kind of interesting to build - I simply don't have a very good Boros card pool.
For MLD one needs a very focused and dedicated deck. For example, taking a look at other formats: old extended white weenie lists were playing Armageddon on turn 4 to simply win with evasive creatures. In a 4 player ffa commander game this is much harder to achieve and needs certain setups. Otherwise a MLD spell might simply cause a stall.
Look to the sunforger, for he shall lead us to glory.
This, at least for me, has always been the exact idea one has to think about. One needs good deck building skills to make Boros work well. For other colors it's always been easier to get a decent deck without too much skill.
1) It's not particular fast. Tends to be more mid-range agro based, I think there's a definite window it can dominate mid to early late game but if game goes on really long I remember falling dead to a lot of blue control decks and G/B/x recursion engines that will get like... some graveyard/Greater Good engine going and go retarded and get a million lands in play, or some Child of Alara decks that ramp and can blow up the board and drop planeswalkers and ult, these are just examples where as a Red/White you don't have the same engine and will fall to those kind of decks if you allow them to get their enchantments and broken engines going.
2) Lack of tutoring and recursion. You can't guarantee to be able to get the cards you want, this limits the type of decks you can really construct, if you're putting together a lot of combo pieces or synergies you can't you need to rely more on redundancy to ensure it'll operate consistently.
3) There's not a lot of just ridiculously "unfair" creatures and spells, Boros tends to be very straightforward removal, sweeps, and combat based. There's just not a lot of Tidespout Tyrants, Memnarchs, Avenger of Zendikar into haste KO's, Praetors and such as much as some of the other Colors, exeption maybe Iona but there's reasons she's shunned so a lot of people don't play her.
4) The format itself. This is just my experience in past, but people play so pillow fort that the style of Boros agro ends up being the decks that takes out 1, 2, or 3 players and loses-- it's because so many decks these days don't have aggro in mind, Boros wants to attack and play tempo and so many decks just want to Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and defend so just by the nature of the deck you will always be the guy with Inferno Titans and angels up that the lazy playgroup sees as a threat, group cucks you most of the game, then the control player that everyone ignored much of the game swoops in at end unchecked and wins it like you warned people he would. This is more of the psychological side of the game that I feel is a flaw, but I'm afraid will always be there, in Commander there's sort of a stigma in aggressive decks that swing for damage where there is none (amazingly) for everyone turtling for an hour and losing in one turn to someone "going off", it's become the sad nature of this format.
I think this is a very good comment and I can support most of the things said here (at least what I experienced myself and others told me). Especially the last point is well put - but this is not really a problem for Boros only. But as Boros tends to be quite combat focused, one needs to deal with this issue more often.
In a playgroup with friends this "combat issue" is usually not a real problem, they know the deck, they know you and how you play. But in a "random" playgroup where new players drop by quite often point 4 is certainly an issue I experience all the time.
To be fair, on Sheldon's list Geddon reps for all ld cards. To be fair to Sheldon though, he did say that using then as win now cards are more ok than just nuking all the lands for lulz.
Meanwhile, Thieves Auction is a goofy fun time card, not a viable card for making the color better, and Sheldon's argument is that it only promises goofy fun time and delivers the magic equivalent of filing your taxes.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Meanwhile, Thieves Auction is a goofy fun time card, not a viable card for making the color better, and Sheldon's argument is that it only promises goofy fun time and delivers the magic equivalent of filing your taxes.
many of his you shouldn't play cards are actually quite valid to r/w, but articles like this, from someone with a platform like his, speak volumes to push against acceptance of valid game plans to r/w. his words have weight.
Man what a biased point.
A black card is on the list too. A green card is on the list too. 3 blue cards are on the list. 3 colorless are on the list.
This thread made me realize that the only culture problem is with people obsessed with boros.
Do you really pretend to win aggroing with anya, merciless angel, savannah lions and flametongue kavu? Do you really think that an armaggedon is the only thing needed to make these cards viable?
It's like a blue player whining because he can't win with chisei, heart of oceans.
Some cards suck, deal with it. All the boros commanders are terrible, deal with it.
I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I’m not trying to say that Boros is the greatest thing ever, in fact no one here has said that. No one has seemed even a little Boros obsessed to me. What I’m seeing is a discussion about whether or not Boros is as terrible as people say.
Now, I again will say, Boros is the worst color combination, and yes it does have commander issues in addition to other problems, BUT, I do believe that being more accepting of strategies that allow the Boros player to keep pace with the game *reduces* that gap. I’m not saying Boros is the most amazing thing ever, just that if we are a more accepting culture it doesn’t have to be the worst thing ever. Boros is fun! It’s got some fun cards and some fun themes (soldiers!), it just can’t keep up without slowing down everyone else via stax effects and MLD. I’m not saying either that you should put all your hopes into MLD, just that it’s a tool that is underutilized because of the EDH culture.
And yes, I know that Sheldon (thanks for commenting by the way, and I look forward to playing with you again at SCGCon) thinks MLD is horrible, and I respect that opinion. I just believe that it can be a part of the Boros toolbox that can help take away the “Boros sucks” mentality and make it more of a viable color scheme, though still not the best.
Also, I’m not agreeing with the comment about the article, I just don’t believe the comment about “people loving Boros are a problem” was fair and wanted to respond to that.
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Honestly i don't how the "keep the game in the early stages thanks to MLD and win with inefficient and constant attacks from my weenies" strategy can actually be any better than "keep the game in the early stages thanks to MLD and win with fast combos or my high-powered general".
Kaalia with MLD can eat any boros for breakfast.
Aggro is still weaker because of more opponents and higher life totals, the abundance of lands is just a factor and not even the major one.
Of course there is substance to that. Have you seen the boros generals?
boros players wanting it to be a cultural phenomena doesn't make it so. Good cards and bad cards exist. Good generals and bad generals exist.Better colors and worst colors exist. Everything else is a consequence of this.
And you are ignoring a huge part of boros' weaknesses by thinking that "meaner strategies" will be help by much.
You are just focusing on the "boros sucks at ramp" problem, with a little of "boros sucks at card advantage"
You also have "boros sucks at generals", "boros sucks at wincon" and "boros sucks at bombs" too.
This guy said it right
Red has some really bomby cards, too. Like Insurrection is not the same level as Expropriate or Tooth and Nail but close to rise.
You listed only 1 example and you even admitted that it's not a really good example, so i think you answered yourself
But more importantly to me is MLD is used poorly the few times I see it played. Someone is way behind and nukes the lands to slow the game to a crawl and hope they can pull ahead despite that not working when they had lands. If someone lands a Geddon onto an empty board with a hasted Kaalia on board and a full grip? Grats you win, no salt. But lets be honest about how its used WAY too often.
Purphoros, God of the Forge can be, but I like it more with green. (Purphoros, Panharmonicon, and then drop Deranged Hermit to hit everyone for 36)
On phasing:
I think that the issue is you didn't actually understand the post. I'm not saying that aggro with mld is better than combo with mld, nor did I ever make that claim. What I said, repeatedly, is that combo strategies benefit only a little from mld because they are already very good, while aggro benefits tremendously because it needs to lock the game into the early rounds more than combo does. Combo with mld backup is still going to be better than aggro with mld backup, but since combo was already good its not getting as much value added by running mld, while aggro, being an iffy strategy, gets a lot of value added. Theres a lot of reasons for this. One is that combo wins tend to be discreet, single turn affairs, which means you are typically better off just firing off the combo if you have it rather than casting the mld spell, so the mld spell serves to slow the game down while you try to get the combo, whereas for an aggro deck it can be used to slow the game down, but your path to victory is attacking with creatures, and mld let's you essentially lock in the board state for a few turns. Combo doesn't really need that most of the time (if combo has a winning board state it's winning right away) while aggro can have a winning board state if nothing significantly changes over the next few turns (and mld stops things other than lands from significantly changing).
Even control doesn't benefit as much as aggro, as control already has plenty of effective ways to control the game. It certainly gets better, but again not by much. Mld would just be another tool in the toolbox and often not the best one, while for aggro mld is one of the best things the deck can do.
RW happens to be a color combo with good access to mld. Any combination with RW in it gets the same and more, BW gets tutors and Desolation Angel, etc. Again though, most of those color combinations have other strategies that mld aggro has to compete with, while Boros doesn't have many. Boros, like other two color combos that want to use mld, also has a leg up on 3+ color combos in that it's color needs are pretty mild, so it's easier to recover from wiping the lands if need be.
Would an Azorious control deck that packs geddon be better than a Boros aggro deck that runs mld? Certainly. The difference is that the Azorious control deck would already have been that good without geddon, while the Boros aggro deck would be a lot better with mld than without.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Is U better, just because it has Time Warp, Bribery and Blatant Thievery effects?
Is B better, just because it has Living Death, Rise of the Dark Realms and Exsanguinate effects?
Is G better, just because it has Genesis Wave, Primal Surge, Boundless Realms and other bombs?
No. But all of them are better because they not only have those bombs at their disposal but they have a ton of suitable cards around them as well.
As far as ramp goes i don't think WR is too far behind any color other than GX and Bx because it can utilize mana rocks more or less like all others.
Removal and board wipes are actually decent, but other colors did catch up in that area over the past few years - i even heard people complaining about G having Ezuri's Predation, lol.
The most significant disadvantage is card draw that's on par with the others. And while it isn't, it would be fine if it weren't for my major gripe with WR...
Abysmal Commanders!
In non-competitive metas virtually all color combinations can keep up with each other, if they have a few decent options sitting in the zone. Given a well-built deck, that is. Combat is essential, and the few commanders that don't have to rely on it are mostly aweful and/or overcosted.
Sooner or later, i will "have to" build a deck in these colors alone, but if i were to choose right now i'd have to choose between Archangel Avacyn/Avacyn, the Purifier Depala, Pilot Exemplar and Firesong and Sunspeaker. I don't know a single color combination, with such few interesting concepts and techs.
This post gets it. In competitive metas, Boros is toast. In uncompetitive metas, Boros sucking is mostly a culture problem. It's the in between metas where mld can help. And yes, Boros' biggest deficit is it's commanders.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, this is quite enlightning on the state of boros commander.
She surely has potential, but as you said her supported tribes are really, really weak.
But regarding mana cost and other parameters, she's really good and other boros commanders should follow her example.
Everyone is understanding that more MLD would be a boon to boros. But what people are saying is that boon isn't high and isn't worth it. No one want to make games more long and tedious just to lightly improve a color combination that would still be far behind the others.
I don't even think MLD would improve boros % winrate by much. Knowing that any boros deck can use a lot of MLD, someone would immediatly try to eliminate them as soon as possible, instead of having a more relaxed attitude like the one there is now.
So it would improve boros strenght, but also greatly increase its threat level.
No one said that bombs are the only factor or the most important factor. But as i said, boros as terrible advantage, terrible resources, terrible commanders and terrible wincons. Add terrible bombs too and, well, you get the picture.
Surely having bombs on par with BUG would help boros a lot. It won't make it viable alone, but it surely would help without being lame and detrimental as MLD.
FS&SS was a cool idea, but in practice the bolt part of the ability is a little tough to make impactful enough (and, with some exceptions, risks stranding really weak cards in your hand if FS&SS aren't on the board), so it's mostly just a way to gain a ton of life off blasphemous act etc, with a few lightning helixes thrown in. Plus they were overcosted. So a nice effort, but didn't live up to expectations imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I personally see myself as a casual player but I am apparently more of a competitive player. Now competitive does not mean land destruction, but land destruction can be used to get an extra edge on others.
With CEDH, one big reason a lot of Boros commanders are considered casual or low-powered is because of "how many 'lives' they provide and at what cost". Depala is easy mode as you can likely cast her 3+ times in a given game with her base cmc of 3 which makes more resilient for her and the deck. Gisela, while unique with her replacement abilities, is considered basically hard mode for the deck because she basically offers 1-2 casts in the game because of her base cmc of 7 and the deck might fall apart without her due to a now exorbitant cost from recasts.
The next one understanding how the Boros commander can "Affect the game around them". Those that simply swing and hit face are considered to have a lower impact than their competition. In part because they are typically going after just one person at a time over several turns. What makes their competition different? They are digging through your deck to provide you more cards, they are furthering your board presence, hamstringing their opponents, or are winning in a single turn. Possibly in addition to swinging.
Finally, there is the matter of Boros commanders of "What direction are you being nudged in?". This last bit may not make sense on the surface, but this is more about what cards the commander nudges you to play with it to get the deck to work. If you are being nudged to play with hidden gems or with established good cards, then it seems like a no-brainer. However there are commanders that nudge you towards playing with less powerful cards which creates an overall weaker deck. This area however is the most flexible and fixable for any commander, even Boros colored ones, as new cards in the 99 can change that.
Thanks for finally addressing the argument instead of a strawman. There is actually room for disagreement over how much Boros would benefit from mld. Having experience running mld in Boros (and other) aggro, I've seen it perform quite well. It doesn't slow down games, instead it closes them out. Of course, this is if it's used correctly, and judging by your bias against it I assume you've had plenty of experience with people using it stupidly. It's an opinion that it's lame, and the longer I've played the more I've come to believe that it's an uninformed one, and often hypocritical to boot. As I've said before, people will run fast combo backed up by tight control packages whose goal is to win as early as possible while shutting down everyone else's strategy, and then throw a hissy fit because someone slapped down a geddon and wrecked their plans. I can get casual players who dislike fast combo, stax, and hard control like counter walls and repeated capsize, but I can't wrap my head around people who are just fine with most, if not all, cutthroat strategies but then think mld is the lamest devil outside of a Halloween play at church.
I do think there's merit to the idea of Boros' flying under the radar and this being less likely if mld was more common, but mod would only really benefit Boros aggro, which is already going to be a target because it threatens to knock someone out of the game early. It will definitely make it less likely that players c and d sit by as Boros beats in player As face I'd they know a geddon might suddenly cripple them and let Boros finish them, but if you're playing Boros aggro you'd rather be taken as a potential threat because you are then written off because you aren't, and it's certainly better than getting targeted anyway which tends to happen to aggro. Feel free to explain to me how the guy who advances his board and starts hitting life totals doesn't usually draw hate already without the threat of blowing up lands. In a more skilled meta his opponents are more likely to correctly assess threats and be suspicious of the sultai player ramping quietly, but they also would be if mld was allowed.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
One of the boros commanders that was most effective to me was Brion Stoutarm. He has very obvious "I Win" synergy with cards like Serra Avatar, if you're looking to cheese. But most importantly I felt his ability plays very effectively with the colors strengths, using cards like Threaten, Word of Seizing, and even hidden gems like Jabari's Influence to gain control and fling cards back.
I think people are putting too much emphasis in this format on card draw, while I think it's important I'd say ramp & tutoring are far more important. To counteract this Red/White needs to be VERY efficient, as long as each card creates innate card advantage whether it be Kiki-Jiki, Flametongue Kavu, Imperial Recruiter, Sun Titan, Restoration Angel, Karmic Guide, etc. and spells you have some of the best removal whether it be the Swords/Path or Return to Dust and board sweeps. And Insurrection and Vicious Shadows are really strong finishers. The shortcoming of card draw can be made up with things like Land Tax, Tithe, and a lot of other cards that can give you CA in lands, and just some of the go-to mana rocks are very useful but I try to really go light since you really want things like Austere Command and Akroma's Veangance, in fact if you can mix in indestructibility with Boros charm and things that give you indestructibility you can use that as a game ender.
For the shortcomings of Boros though I'd say:
1) It's not particular fast. Tends to be more mid-range agro based, I think there's a definite window it can dominate mid to early late game but if game goes on really long I remember falling dead to a lot of blue control decks and G/B/x recursion engines that will get like... some graveyard/Greater Good engine going and go retarded and get a million lands in play, or some Child of Alara decks that ramp and can blow up the board and drop planeswalkers and ult, these are just examples where as a Red/White you don't have the same engine and will fall to those kind of decks if you allow them to get their enchantments and broken engines going.
2) Lack of tutoring and recursion. You can't guarantee to be able to get the cards you want, this limits the type of decks you can really construct, if you're putting together a lot of combo pieces or synergies you can't you need to rely more on redundancy to ensure it'll operate consistently.
3) There's not a lot of just ridiculously "unfair" creatures and spells, Boros tends to be very straightforward removal, sweeps, and combat based. There's just not a lot of Tidespout Tyrants, Memnarchs, Avenger of Zendikar into haste KO's, Praetors and such as much as some of the other Colors, exeption maybe Iona but there's reasons she's shunned so a lot of people don't play her.
4) The format itself. This is just my experience in past, but people play so pillow fort that the style of Boros agro ends up being the decks that takes out 1, 2, or 3 players and loses-- it's because so many decks these days don't have aggro in mind, Boros wants to attack and play tempo and so many decks just want to Propaganda/Ghostly Prison and defend so just by the nature of the deck you will always be the guy with Inferno Titans and angels up that the lazy playgroup sees as a threat, group cucks you most of the game, then the control player that everyone ignored much of the game swoops in at end unchecked and wins it like you warned people he would. This is more of the psychological side of the game that I feel is a flaw, but I'm afraid will always be there, in Commander there's sort of a stigma in aggressive decks that swing for damage where there is none (amazingly) for everyone turtling for an hour and losing in one turn to someone "going off", it's become the sad nature of this format.
i'll bite and take the warning and/or ban.
don't do it. make him suffer for his article that essentially decry's all of r/w's valid strategies, creating the culture problem being argued
i'm talking about this one:
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37865_Commander-Cards-You-Shouldnt-Play.html
many of his you shouldn't play cards are actually quite valid to r/w, but articles like this, from someone with a platform like his, speak volumes to push against acceptance of valid game plans to r/w. his words have weight.
And yes, most people don't enjoy playing against mld. This format prioritizes enjoyment over balance - not that embracing mld would balance the format, but it might help.
Rw does fun things that don't suck and are also powerful. Stop focusing on only mld. Look to the sunforger, for he shall lead us to glory.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Man what a biased point.
A black card is on the list too. A green card is on the list too. 3 blue cards are on the list. 3 colorless are on the list.
This thread made me realize that the only culture problem is with people obsessed with boros.
Do you really pretend to win aggroing with anya, merciless angel, savannah lions and flametongue kavu? Do you really think that an armaggedon is the only thing needed to make these cards viable?
It's like a blue player whining because he can't win with chisei, heart of oceans.
Some cards suck, deal with it. All the boros commanders are terrible, deal with it.
For MLD one needs a very focused and dedicated deck. For example, taking a look at other formats: old extended white weenie lists were playing Armageddon on turn 4 to simply win with evasive creatures. In a 4 player ffa commander game this is much harder to achieve and needs certain setups. Otherwise a MLD spell might simply cause a stall.
This, at least for me, has always been the exact idea one has to think about. One needs good deck building skills to make Boros work well. For other colors it's always been easier to get a decent deck without too much skill.
I think this is a very good comment and I can support most of the things said here (at least what I experienced myself and others told me). Especially the last point is well put - but this is not really a problem for Boros only. But as Boros tends to be quite combat focused, one needs to deal with this issue more often.
In a playgroup with friends this "combat issue" is usually not a real problem, they know the deck, they know you and how you play. But in a "random" playgroup where new players drop by quite often point 4 is certainly an issue I experience all the time.
Meanwhile, Thieves Auction is a goofy fun time card, not a viable card for making the color better, and Sheldon's argument is that it only promises goofy fun time and delivers the magic equivalent of filing your taxes.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Nicely and succinctly put.
I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I’m not trying to say that Boros is the greatest thing ever, in fact no one here has said that. No one has seemed even a little Boros obsessed to me. What I’m seeing is a discussion about whether or not Boros is as terrible as people say.
Now, I again will say, Boros is the worst color combination, and yes it does have commander issues in addition to other problems, BUT, I do believe that being more accepting of strategies that allow the Boros player to keep pace with the game *reduces* that gap. I’m not saying Boros is the most amazing thing ever, just that if we are a more accepting culture it doesn’t have to be the worst thing ever. Boros is fun! It’s got some fun cards and some fun themes (soldiers!), it just can’t keep up without slowing down everyone else via stax effects and MLD. I’m not saying either that you should put all your hopes into MLD, just that it’s a tool that is underutilized because of the EDH culture.
And yes, I know that Sheldon (thanks for commenting by the way, and I look forward to playing with you again at SCGCon) thinks MLD is horrible, and I respect that opinion. I just believe that it can be a part of the Boros toolbox that can help take away the “Boros sucks” mentality and make it more of a viable color scheme, though still not the best.
Also, I’m not agreeing with the comment about the article, I just don’t believe the comment about “people loving Boros are a problem” was fair and wanted to respond to that.