I recently caught up with some old Command Zone podcasts, specifically their stats episodes, and one thing that stuck out to me was the overwhelming advantage that decks with the most lands in play have in winning.
Generally, people see any land based ramp spell as fairly non-threatening, but getting ahead in mana and therefore spending more mana over the course of the game is the single biggest predictor of winning according to the episode.
All that said, what are some ways to combat these strategies? MLD generally would do it, but it’s frowned upon even by non-ramp players.
Play MLD. Ramp players should expect it. You don't see combo players trying to ban counterspells. It's the artificial absence of MLD that makes ramp such a popular strategy. Erebos help me if I ever sit down with my big mana mono black deck with all the coffers variants under the sun and say, "Hey guys, no land destruction, okay"... I cringe at the thought.
It's really weird to look at old Magic and how ramp was handled then to new Magic and how land destruction is handled.
Employ using ramp yourself. Pretty simple.
As an aside, "ramp" doesn't necessarily describe the amount of land. It describes the amount of available mana at your disposal.
I know a lot of players frown on cards like Sol Ring or Mishra's Workshop but they exist for a reason. Especially since black, and later red, had Rituals for so long and Green now generally gets most of the ramp goodies. Also a critical reason why the oldest MLD belonged to White. But I digress, if Sol Ring isn't your gig then employ any number of the available mana rocks at your disposal. If that's not your flavor, then mana "borrowing" like Carpet of Flowers, theft like Annex, Denial like Choke, slowing them down with Kismet, use a multiplier like Dawn's Reflection, don't even worry about land destruction with Equinox, give yourself a bit of a boost with Circuitous Route, be a jerk with Kudzu (that card is crazy good fun).
All sorts of ways to deal with ramp or just jump on the bandwagon and get your own.
Play MLD. Ramp players should expect it. You don't see combo players trying to ban counterspells. It's the artificial absence of MLD that makes ramp such a popular strategy. Erebos help me if I ever sit down with my big mana mono black deck with all the coffers variants under the sun and say, "Hey guys, no land destruction, okay"... I cringe at the thought.
Yeah MLD surely sounds like the best way to punish the ramp player and not harm regular decks.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Some people are inherently against the concept of touching lands even if you brutalize them consistently with Cabal Coffers mana. All you can do in that situation is just keep winning and hearing the dude who hates your ramp deck but refuses to play Ghost Quarter whine/just keep losing so that your playgroup won't complain because you added Armageddon to beat the Tatyova deck that kept beating you all every week.
Actually, MLD tends to punish non-ramp decks a lot more than it does ramp decks. Ramp decks run lots of ramp cards, and if they designed well, at some point the player who is ramping has enough mana to do what the deck is supposed to do and moves on to do that, often holding onto yet more ramp in their hands. Thus, when someone does MLD, the Rampster can often recover faster than the players who have been doing everything they can to move their own board states and who are less likely to have as many additional mana sources in hand or to draw into them.
The best way to stop ramp decks is to figure out what the ramp player is looking to accomplish with all that mana and focus on stopping that. That might include some targeted LD - it's always a good idea to take out things like Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - but will also likely involve some combination of spot removal, sweepers of various sorts and/or countermagic.
Another option is to gang up on the guy who is spending his first several turns doing nothing but ramping beyond the level of the other players at the table. Swing into him when he doesn't have blockers, or force him to use creatures that enable his ramp strategy to absorb damage. Remove the support pieces with spot removal. Whenever I play my Zacama deck, people who have played against it know to kill the mana doublers and things like Oracle of Mul Daya on sight, and to try to have answers to the big dino on board.
Play MLD. Ramp players should expect it. You don't see combo players trying to ban counterspells. It's the artificial absence of MLD that makes ramp such a popular strategy. Erebos help me if I ever sit down with my big mana mono black deck with all the coffers variants under the sun and say, "Hey guys, no land destruction, okay"... I cringe at the thought.
Yeah MLD surely sounds like the best way to punish the ramp player and not harm regular decks.
“Regular players” should expect to be harmed by the prepared player when one of them has ten lands on turn four. I expect to lose my creatures when Krenko is at the table. I expect to lose my artifacts when the blue guy gets all his out there. Players not up for collateral damage should stick to 1v1 formats.
MLD has its reputation (and hence ramp is so popular generally) because people tend to prefer struggling completely futilely over being simply completely durdling. Throw in the fact people tend to be inadequately (or completely not) equipped to deal with MLD themselves, they direct their anger towards to MLD player instead ("you're losing either way" doesn't cut it to curb the anger because of my first sentence, people get angrier because they are denied their chance to struggle, even if said struggle was essentially worthless as well) and it forms a vicious cycle of people not playing MLD and not being prepared for it, which frees ramp. No one wants to play the "bad guy" in the social circle game and in groups that don't take feedback very well, honestly this cycle is pretty much unbreakable (chances are people would actually split instead).
How easy it is to fix the problem is based on how receptive the group is to feedback to deckbuilding (in terms of being prepared for deckbuilding) and playstyle ("not attacking the open player because he or she is just ramping" is a common mistake for beginners and well there are stubborn people out there). On a individual deckbuilding level you can only do so much if the social aspect of the problem is not fixed - no amount of MLD is going to magically fix these problems. As mentioned above, in some of the most stubborn groups, perhaps the only actual individualistic solution (without playing the "bad guy") is to outramp them all and win instead.
If you want a happy medium, you can try Natural Balance. It doesn't bring the game to a screeching halt like Armageddon and can actually help someone who is mana screwed, yet it balances the land count for each player and reins in the player with a bunch of land ramp. Of course, it doesn't help if they keep Gaea's Cradle or similar. But it should draw less ire than true MLD.
Also keep in mind that Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter, and other cards that punish or prevent searching the library, have a huge impact on land based ramp.
If you don't want to play Stax or MLD, pillowfort can sometimes hold its own. But if you don't want to ramp, your curve better be low... the winner of the game is not the one with the most mana, it is the one who cast the most spells. Lots of mana helps you cast lots of spells.... so, you can either ramp faster or have a low curve to win the game.
MLD has its reputation (and hence ramp is so popular generally) because people tend to prefer struggling completely futilely over being simply completely durdling. Throw in the fact people tend to be inadequately (or completely not) equipped to deal with MLD themselves, they direct their anger towards to MLD player instead ("you're losing either way" doesn't cut it to curb the anger because of my first sentence, people get angrier because they are denied their chance to struggle, even if said struggle was essentially worthless as well) and it forms a vicious cycle of people not playing MLD and not being prepared for it, which frees ramp. No one wants to play the "bad guy" in the social circle game and in groups that don't take feedback very well, honestly this cycle is pretty much unbreakable (chances are people would actually split instead).
How easy it is to fix the problem is based on how receptive the group is to feedback to deckbuilding (in terms of being prepared for deckbuilding) and playstyle ("not attacking the open player because he or she is just ramping" is a common mistake for beginners and well there are stubborn people out there). On a individual deckbuilding level you can only do so much if the social aspect of the problem is not fixed - no amount of MLD is going to magically fix these problems. As mentioned above, in some of the most stubborn groups, perhaps the only actual individualistic solution (without playing the "bad guy") is to outramp them all and win instead.
I'm pretty sure I said, and still say this same thing for years now...and the reaction from this community and others being "I'm just the competitive dick that ruins everyone's fun."
So I'm happy to see this thought being shared by more than just myself.
MLD has its reputation (and hence ramp is so popular generally) because people tend to prefer struggling completely futilely over being simply completely durdling. Throw in the fact people tend to be inadequately (or completely not) equipped to deal with MLD themselves, they direct their anger towards to MLD player instead ("you're losing either way" doesn't cut it to curb the anger because of my first sentence, people get angrier because they are denied their chance to struggle, even if said struggle was essentially worthless as well) and it forms a vicious cycle of people not playing MLD and not being prepared for it, which frees ramp. No one wants to play the "bad guy" in the social circle game and in groups that don't take feedback very well, honestly this cycle is pretty much unbreakable (chances are people would actually split instead).
How easy it is to fix the problem is based on how receptive the group is to feedback to deckbuilding (in terms of being prepared for deckbuilding) and playstyle ("not attacking the open player because he or she is just ramping" is a common mistake for beginners and well there are stubborn people out there). On a individual deckbuilding level you can only do so much if the social aspect of the problem is not fixed - no amount of MLD is going to magically fix these problems. As mentioned above, in some of the most stubborn groups, perhaps the only actual individualistic solution (without playing the "bad guy") is to outramp them all and win instead.
I'm pretty sure I said, and still say this same thing for years now...and the reaction from this community and others being "I'm just the competitive dick that ruins everyone's fun."
So I'm happy to see this thought being shared by more than just myself.
hear, hear!
I run MLD, though i run a heck of a lot more targeted land destruction effects (wastelandstrip mine and the like), just 'cuz its usually not the mass of lands that is problematic, but usually the gaeas cradle and the like that gets out of hand.
Most of my red decks run at least a ruination and a decree of annihilation. I feel like it's up to the other players in my meta to realise that nothing is sacred in magic. If you whinge and remove an entire aspect of magic (land destruction, for example), then the strategies that they naturally are stronger against would be unleashed and warp the meta (ramp, in this case).
And that leads to the internet complaining about how wizards is making red and white super weak in EDH, and not being able to diagnose the problem being that red and white has a strategy of being a bit more aggro, and keeping the game in the early-game (through land destruction), and it's somehow warped green to become a powerhouse in the game.
Remember, most ramp decks don't actually have a significantly higher % of their deck as lands - this means that going nuts and ramping for the first 4-5 turns of the game means that the proportion of lands left in their deck is smaller than the rest of the table. This means that no, nuking all the lands DOESN'T hurt the other players more, since they're more likely to be able to draw into their lands as the game goes. It hampers the ramp player a lot harder than many of us think.
There ARE other ways to offset ramp in any given meta though; constant pressure, a lower curve, more hand-disruption, improved threat assessment/memory, and otherwise taxing them for having more lands than other players or punish them for ramping (damping engine, damping sphere, ankh of mishra).
Don't be afraid to try to lean into using MLD even if your playgroup is a bit off-put by it. And play them WISELY (i.e. don't just play it for funsies, be tactical when you nuke all the lands), and they'll warm up to it (especially when they see that it's keeping the ramp guy in check).
Lands aren't sacred. Lands that tap for scaling amounts of mana definitely aren't. I willEncroaching Wastes your Coffers if I have the opportunity.
I just put Thoughts of Ruin in my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis, as sort of inbetweener between curbing down problem ramp... and abusing my own 'problem ramp', depending where the game goes. If I end up blowing all the lands, but I am also left with K&T on the board, the soft restart favors me.
My other favourite way of dealing with ramp is just the good ol 'hit them while they're ramping'. If they start playing their big mana money spells when they're already down to 15 life... the situation is rather different, isn't it?
This topic has reminded me to do a check through each of my decks that they at least sport SOME answer to problem lands. Might need to get more Ghost Quarters...
(Also dropping Natural Balance to Yasova who can play the whole deck pretty much at five lands...)
X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
(Also dropping Natural Balance to Yasova who can play the whole deck pretty much at five lands...)
As a resident Alesha player, I'd be perfectly comfortable with a Nat Balance for much the same reason. Who needs six drops when your average curve is 2.1? 🤔
Remember, most ramp decks don't actually have a significantly higher % of their deck as lands - this means that going nuts and ramping for the first 4-5 turns of the game means that the proportion of lands left in their deck is smaller than the rest of the table. This means that no, nuking all the lands DOESN'T hurt the other players more, since they're more likely to be able to draw into their lands as the game goes. It hampers the ramp player a lot harder than many of us think.
This, again, is not what actually happens most of the time. Ramp decks may or may not run a higher percentage of land (most don't, at least not significantly), but they do run a higher percentage of ramp cards, usually including lots of cheap ones, which they will continue to draw into post-MLD, so they can likely recover more quickly from MLD strategies than anyone other than the MLD user, who typically has built their deck around that aspect. MLD is not a balancing strategy. It is a resource denial strategy that pretends to be an answer to ramp.
There ARE other ways to offset ramp in any given meta though; constant pressure, a lower curve, more hand-disruption, improved threat assessment/memory, and otherwise taxing them for having more lands than other players or punish them for ramping (damping engine, damping sphere, ankh of mishra).
These are much better strategies to address ramp without making it miserable for the rest of the players.
And everyone should run at least a few bits of spot removal that hits select lands. If you can't afford or don't own Wasteland, run Strip Mine, and if that is beyond your means, there's always Ghost Quarter. If Fulminator Mage is outside your colors, there are lots of other cards wihch can ping individual lands, This strategy won't full-stop ramp, but it can slow it down a lot by removing select pieces, and they have the benefit of applying to everyone. It's rare someone doesn't run at least one or two lands in their deck that should be blown up, and if a mono-black player owns Cabal Coffers they will likely run it even if theirs isn't a dedicated ramp deck.
“Regular players” should expect to be harmed by the prepared player when one of them has ten lands on turn four. I expect to lose my creatures when Krenko is at the table. I expect to lose my artifacts when the blue guy gets all his out there. Players not up for collateral damage should stick to 1v1 formats.
And every war must have its civil victims right? Seems like a fun mentality to have in a game.
Meanwhile you can destroy that problematic Coffer with beast within, chaos warp, strip mine, song of the dryads, imprisoned in the moon and vindicate.
But hey if you need an excuse to play MLD and feel morally right just do it.
That player cast rampant growth! Surely my armageddon will solve everything!
Meanwhile the combo player is laughing with his sol ring, mana crypt and mana vault.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Regarding MLD as an answer to ramp decks.....be careful. If the ramp player has already dumped a huge amount of lands into play (e.g. Boundelss Realms), it can be great. But often, particularly if they know that Armageddon is a possibility (so they don't commit every ramp spell they have), people with a lot of ramp are actually better able to recover from losing all their lands. This goes doubly for decks that diversify their ramp package - if they're mainly about fetching up lands, but run a few mana dorks, leaving them with a Fyndhorn Elves means they're only one land away from a Rampant Growth to kickstart the rampsplosion all over again. Natural Balance has this problem - it doesn't actually stop their ability to ramp, it just negates the ramping they've been doing. Not saying that MLD shouldn't be part of the anti-ramp package, just that lines of thinking like "he's got 7 lands, we've got 4, so Ravages of War will hurt him more" are often wrong. A well timed MLD spell can really set back a ramp deck. A poorly timed one can give them the game.
As a more general attitude though, don't be afraid to interact with their ramp. Nature's Claiming a Sol Ring is not a bad play. Counterspelling a Harrow is a good play. Flashing in Aven Mindcensor in response to a Skyshroud Claim is well worth doing. Cracking a Strip Mine on a land that taps for more than 1 mana is generally a solid move. And note that all these cards are just generally good and should usually be run anyway if you're in the colour.
I'll also second the vote for Meltdown. Such an underplayed little card - if you're not reliant on artifacts for ramp (e.g. a GR deck), it can do so much damage to other players' acceleration when fired off at something like X=2 early in a game.
I’ve become obsessed with beating land-based ramp, so I’ve built out a Xantcha deck with Ankh of Mishra, Zo-Zu the Punisher and Polluted Bonds. I also run Wildfire as it conveniently leaves Xantcha alive while putting everyone in a situation where they need to activate her to rebuild.
Obviously, the deck also includes plenty of ramp of its own with Solemn Simulacrum, Burnished Hart and Myriad Landscape, plus Coffers/Urborg. To win, im going to need a mana advantage, usually, just like anyone else.
I guess where I’m at is that a decent number of people in my playgroup treat lands as sacred, where as I treat them as threats needing to be answered. I also run some single target land removal, but I need answers to the deck that plays T2 Rampant Growth, T3 Cultivate, T4 Nature’s Lore/Explosive Vegetation.
I don't understand how wildfire can punish ramp
The player with 11 lands still has 7 lands and can still cast fatties
The player with 7 lands still has 3 lands and can cast cultivate
The player with 4 lands now has nothing
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I don't understand how wildfire can punish ramp
The player with 11 lands still has 7 lands and can still cast fatties
The player with 7 lands still has 3 lands and can cast cultivate
The player with 4 lands now has nothing
First, if one player has 11 lands and another has 4, that game is already over. So your premise is moot.
Second, Wildfire doesn’t play itself. It is played by a player who is strategically deploying cards. There are situations in which it is very bad, and you do not need to play it. There are other situations in which it is very good. Here’s an example:
I have Wildfire tucked under a Spinerock Knoll. Xantcha is out, and I have Coffers/Urborg and 9 lands, while the ramp player has out 12 lands. Both other players have 8. Ramp player Strip Mine’s my Coffers. In response, I activate Xantcha 4 times and cast Wildfire. When the dust settles, the ramp player has 7 lands, I have 5, and the other players have 4. I wiped the board except for Xantcha, and now everyone is strongly considering using Xantcha’s ability to draw and dig for more mana. Again, the card is a tool in the tool box, not a “Well, I’m at 6 mana, hue hue hue, cast Wildfire. LOL!”
There are exceptions as you point out, where careful use can hurt the land heavy guy, but generally Wildfire is a big payoff for ramping. Good card though.
Being aggressive and pressuring the known ramp players before they are set up is a good way to make them pay for spending their mana and cards ramping early on. Winning from nowhere (usually some combo or big from nowhere wincon) is also an option that can make their ramp plan irrelevant.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Generally, people see any land based ramp spell as fairly non-threatening, but getting ahead in mana and therefore spending more mana over the course of the game is the single biggest predictor of winning according to the episode.
All that said, what are some ways to combat these strategies? MLD generally would do it, but it’s frowned upon even by non-ramp players.
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Employ using ramp yourself. Pretty simple.
As an aside, "ramp" doesn't necessarily describe the amount of land. It describes the amount of available mana at your disposal.
I know a lot of players frown on cards like Sol Ring or Mishra's Workshop but they exist for a reason. Especially since black, and later red, had Rituals for so long and Green now generally gets most of the ramp goodies. Also a critical reason why the oldest MLD belonged to White. But I digress, if Sol Ring isn't your gig then employ any number of the available mana rocks at your disposal. If that's not your flavor, then mana "borrowing" like Carpet of Flowers, theft like Annex, Denial like Choke, slowing them down with Kismet, use a multiplier like Dawn's Reflection, don't even worry about land destruction with Equinox, give yourself a bit of a boost with Circuitous Route, be a jerk with Kudzu (that card is crazy good fun).
All sorts of ways to deal with ramp or just jump on the bandwagon and get your own.
Yeah MLD surely sounds like the best way to punish the ramp player and not harm regular decks.
The best way to stop ramp decks is to figure out what the ramp player is looking to accomplish with all that mana and focus on stopping that. That might include some targeted LD - it's always a good idea to take out things like Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - but will also likely involve some combination of spot removal, sweepers of various sorts and/or countermagic.
Another option is to gang up on the guy who is spending his first several turns doing nothing but ramping beyond the level of the other players at the table. Swing into him when he doesn't have blockers, or force him to use creatures that enable his ramp strategy to absorb damage. Remove the support pieces with spot removal. Whenever I play my Zacama deck, people who have played against it know to kill the mana doublers and things like Oracle of Mul Daya on sight, and to try to have answers to the big dino on board.
“Regular players” should expect to be harmed by the prepared player when one of them has ten lands on turn four. I expect to lose my creatures when Krenko is at the table. I expect to lose my artifacts when the blue guy gets all his out there. Players not up for collateral damage should stick to 1v1 formats.
If it's hard land ramp, then an Armageddon following their dumb Boundless Realms will neuter them.
If it's mana dorks, then any Pyroclasm will do.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
How easy it is to fix the problem is based on how receptive the group is to feedback to deckbuilding (in terms of being prepared for deckbuilding) and playstyle ("not attacking the open player because he or she is just ramping" is a common mistake for beginners and well there are stubborn people out there). On a individual deckbuilding level you can only do so much if the social aspect of the problem is not fixed - no amount of MLD is going to magically fix these problems. As mentioned above, in some of the most stubborn groups, perhaps the only actual individualistic solution (without playing the "bad guy") is to outramp them all and win instead.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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If you don't want to play Stax or MLD, pillowfort can sometimes hold its own. But if you don't want to ramp, your curve better be low... the winner of the game is not the one with the most mana, it is the one who cast the most spells. Lots of mana helps you cast lots of spells.... so, you can either ramp faster or have a low curve to win the game.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I'm pretty sure I said, and still say this same thing for years now...and the reaction from this community and others being "I'm just the competitive dick that ruins everyone's fun."
So I'm happy to see this thought being shared by more than just myself.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
hear, hear!
I run MLD, though i run a heck of a lot more targeted land destruction effects (wasteland strip mine and the like), just 'cuz its usually not the mass of lands that is problematic, but usually the gaeas cradle and the like that gets out of hand.
Most of my red decks run at least a ruination and a decree of annihilation. I feel like it's up to the other players in my meta to realise that nothing is sacred in magic. If you whinge and remove an entire aspect of magic (land destruction, for example), then the strategies that they naturally are stronger against would be unleashed and warp the meta (ramp, in this case).
And that leads to the internet complaining about how wizards is making red and white super weak in EDH, and not being able to diagnose the problem being that red and white has a strategy of being a bit more aggro, and keeping the game in the early-game (through land destruction), and it's somehow warped green to become a powerhouse in the game.
Remember, most ramp decks don't actually have a significantly higher % of their deck as lands - this means that going nuts and ramping for the first 4-5 turns of the game means that the proportion of lands left in their deck is smaller than the rest of the table. This means that no, nuking all the lands DOESN'T hurt the other players more, since they're more likely to be able to draw into their lands as the game goes. It hampers the ramp player a lot harder than many of us think.
There ARE other ways to offset ramp in any given meta though; constant pressure, a lower curve, more hand-disruption, improved threat assessment/memory, and otherwise taxing them for having more lands than other players or punish them for ramping (damping engine, damping sphere, ankh of mishra).
Don't be afraid to try to lean into using MLD even if your playgroup is a bit off-put by it. And play them WISELY (i.e. don't just play it for funsies, be tactical when you nuke all the lands), and they'll warm up to it (especially when they see that it's keeping the ramp guy in check).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I just put Thoughts of Ruin in my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis, as sort of inbetweener between curbing down problem ramp... and abusing my own 'problem ramp', depending where the game goes. If I end up blowing all the lands, but I am also left with K&T on the board, the soft restart favors me.
My other favourite way of dealing with ramp is just the good ol 'hit them while they're ramping'. If they start playing their big mana money spells when they're already down to 15 life... the situation is rather different, isn't it?
This topic has reminded me to do a check through each of my decks that they at least sport SOME answer to problem lands. Might need to get more Ghost Quarters...
(Also dropping Natural Balance to Yasova who can play the whole deck pretty much at five lands...)
As a resident Alesha player, I'd be perfectly comfortable with a Nat Balance for much the same reason. Who needs six drops when your average curve is 2.1? 🤔
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This, again, is not what actually happens most of the time. Ramp decks may or may not run a higher percentage of land (most don't, at least not significantly), but they do run a higher percentage of ramp cards, usually including lots of cheap ones, which they will continue to draw into post-MLD, so they can likely recover more quickly from MLD strategies than anyone other than the MLD user, who typically has built their deck around that aspect. MLD is not a balancing strategy. It is a resource denial strategy that pretends to be an answer to ramp.
These are much better strategies to address ramp without making it miserable for the rest of the players.
And everyone should run at least a few bits of spot removal that hits select lands. If you can't afford or don't own Wasteland, run Strip Mine, and if that is beyond your means, there's always Ghost Quarter. If Fulminator Mage is outside your colors, there are lots of other cards wihch can ping individual lands, This strategy won't full-stop ramp, but it can slow it down a lot by removing select pieces, and they have the benefit of applying to everyone. It's rare someone doesn't run at least one or two lands in their deck that should be blown up, and if a mono-black player owns Cabal Coffers they will likely run it even if theirs isn't a dedicated ramp deck.
And every war must have its civil victims right? Seems like a fun mentality to have in a game.
Meanwhile you can destroy that problematic Coffer with beast within, chaos warp, strip mine, song of the dryads, imprisoned in the moon and vindicate.
But hey if you need an excuse to play MLD and feel morally right just do it.
That player cast rampant growth! Surely my armageddon will solve everything!
Meanwhile the combo player is laughing with his sol ring, mana crypt and mana vault.
As a more general attitude though, don't be afraid to interact with their ramp. Nature's Claiming a Sol Ring is not a bad play. Counterspelling a Harrow is a good play. Flashing in Aven Mindcensor in response to a Skyshroud Claim is well worth doing. Cracking a Strip Mine on a land that taps for more than 1 mana is generally a solid move. And note that all these cards are just generally good and should usually be run anyway if you're in the colour.
I'll also second the vote for Meltdown. Such an underplayed little card - if you're not reliant on artifacts for ramp (e.g. a GR deck), it can do so much damage to other players' acceleration when fired off at something like X=2 early in a game.
Obviously, the deck also includes plenty of ramp of its own with Solemn Simulacrum, Burnished Hart and Myriad Landscape, plus Coffers/Urborg. To win, im going to need a mana advantage, usually, just like anyone else.
I guess where I’m at is that a decent number of people in my playgroup treat lands as sacred, where as I treat them as threats needing to be answered. I also run some single target land removal, but I need answers to the deck that plays T2 Rampant Growth, T3 Cultivate, T4 Nature’s Lore/Explosive Vegetation.
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I don't understand how wildfire can punish ramp
The player with 11 lands still has 7 lands and can still cast fatties
The player with 7 lands still has 3 lands and can cast cultivate
The player with 4 lands now has nothing
First, if one player has 11 lands and another has 4, that game is already over. So your premise is moot.
Second, Wildfire doesn’t play itself. It is played by a player who is strategically deploying cards. There are situations in which it is very bad, and you do not need to play it. There are other situations in which it is very good. Here’s an example:
I have Wildfire tucked under a Spinerock Knoll. Xantcha is out, and I have Coffers/Urborg and 9 lands, while the ramp player has out 12 lands. Both other players have 8. Ramp player Strip Mine’s my Coffers. In response, I activate Xantcha 4 times and cast Wildfire. When the dust settles, the ramp player has 7 lands, I have 5, and the other players have 4. I wiped the board except for Xantcha, and now everyone is strongly considering using Xantcha’s ability to draw and dig for more mana. Again, the card is a tool in the tool box, not a “Well, I’m at 6 mana, hue hue hue, cast Wildfire. LOL!”
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[Modern] Allies
Shame this is just so not great in 3c+ decks.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.