Maybe it's just my playgroup, but even in casual games, I rarely seem a player in a position where all their mana comes from lands outside of the first few turns. Most of it, quite possibly, but rocks, dorks and some oddities like Frontier Siege are pretty widespread. So, is Armageddon fine in that kind of environment then?
I mean, it's fine anywhere people are fine with it.
You won't find me disagreeing with that, and I certainly wouldn't force a group that didn't want to play MLD to start running it or vice-versa (and for the record, my playrgoup's attitude to MLD [as with most strategies] is "fine, but not every game"). I'm really just trying to get my head round the attitude of "MLD is uniquely bad" that some people seem to have by pointing out the experiences I've had with this format in which other effects that seem far more tolerated will do the same thing as 'Geddon and that the "can't play at all" experience of the latter isn't something I see that often.
That said, I think it's a sad state of affairs when all decks are ramp decks. Yawn.
I think there's a difference between a full on ramp deck which is trying to completely break the 1 mana/turn baseline, and a "normal" deck that still wants to have a bit of acceleration/fixing from spells. My group is mainly the latter, although we certainly have a few "big mana" decks around (mostly green based, though I do have a Kozilek deck with a rather ridiculous amount of rocks - that's a deck for which a Bane of Progress or, god forbid, an early Null Rod is far more harmful to my ability to play Magic than an Armageddon).
You won't find me disagreeing with that, and I certainly wouldn't force a group that didn't want to play MLD to start running it or vice-versa (and for the record, my playrgoup's attitude to MLD [as with most strategies] is "fine, but not every game"). I'm really just trying to get my head round the attitude of "MLD is uniquely bad" that some people seem to have by pointing out the experiences I've had with this format in which other effects that seem far more tolerated will do the same thing as 'Geddon and that the "can't play at all" experience of the latter isn't something I see that often.
I think it's weird that your defense of MLD in a thread about combatting ramp is "well, it's not that bad as long as you're ramping."
I think there's a difference between a full on ramp deck which is trying to completely break the 1 mana/turn baseline, and a "normal" deck that still wants to have a bit of acceleration/fixing from spells. My group is mainly the latter, although we certainly have a few "big mana" decks around (mostly green based, though I do have a Kozilek deck with a rather ridiculous amount of rocks - that's a deck for which a Bane of Progress or, god forbid, an early Null Rod is far more harmful to my ability to play Magic than an Armageddon).
If a deck consistently has ramp in the first few turns, you'd expect probably like 10% ramp? Idk, I'd call that a ramp deck. Doesn't have to be all-in.
And null rod you can just remove, that's way more interactive than geddon, even ignoring the part where geddon can completely remove mana while null rod usually cannot.
I generally agree that MLD is not the best case scenario for controlling players it is effective in flattening land accumulation.
Oh well finally.
MLD isn't used to combat ramp. It's used t support artifact ramp or commanders that don't require many lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I think it's weird that your defense of MLD in a thread about combatting ramp is "well, it's not that bad as long as you're ramping".
If a deck consistently has ramp in the first few turns, you'd expect probably like 10% ramp? Idk, I'd call that a ramp deck. Doesn't have to be all-in.
To me, that's a pretty typical EDH deck - 33-37 lands, 6-10 ramp spells. The kind of thing I see all over the place with all sorts of strategies and power levels. Even if your deck is mainly CMC 4 or less, getting to the top of the curve a turn early, is great and such things can really help with fixing if you're 3+ colours. I don't consider putting in a few rocks, dorks and/or land fetching spells to be anything even worth remarking on. So yeah, maybe this is just a definitions thing. When I see the OP complaining about ramp, I assumed it was the kind of decks that have 10 mana on T6, not the ones that untap with 4 mana T4 then maybe miss a land drop. And, yeah, I certainly don't regard MLD as a particularly good answer to all in ramp - not only will a well built ramp deck have non-land based acceleration, they can also recover quicker from the wipe.
And null rod you can just remove, that's way more interactive than geddon, even ignoring the part where geddon can completely remove mana while null rod usually cannot.
Sometimes. Sometimes you're dependent on your artifacts to make the mana you need to remove it (you try finding efficiently costed removal when you're playing a colourless deck - or how about any enchantment removal barring the one Chaos Warp if you're a red artifact deck and it was a Stony Silence). Also, Armageddon negates the land you've played prior to it but then leaves you free to recover. Null Rod negates both the stuff you've already played and and such cards you play in the future. Not saying it's always more damaging to your ability to play than a 'Geddon, but against some decks it certainly can be worse.
This is def getting off topic, but there are quite a few colorless artifact/enchantment removal cards (karn, ugin for enchantments, that 7 mana instant, spine of ish sah, probably others I can't think of instantaneously) plus tutors for them (ring of wishes, phyrexian portal, planar portal). Admittedly most of them are pretty pricey and harder to cast without artifacts, but presumably you can still cast cheaper things that do something in the meantime, while you're waiting to drop lands. And I mean, if you're building a deck that's almost pure artifacts you've got to have some awareness that you ought to plan ahead for the weaknesses that entails.
MLD is especially problematic imo because (1) it affects every deck, somewhere on the spectrum between "pretty big deal" to "instantly lose the game deal" and (2) there's really no telling where it's coming from, and (3) it's hard to prepare for, especially given how rarely it comes up. It's the sort of thing that, if commander was best-of-3 with sideboarding (don't ask me how) it would be a much lesser deal, because it IS play-aroundable to a certain extent, by preventing the MLD player from ever getting too far ahead (although that's still a lot to ask for a single 4-mana card). The problem with its status in commander right now is that it's unexpected, extremely high impact, and difficult enough to play around that it's generally incorrect to do so given the rarity and generally frowning-upon it receives. If a meta consistently plays MLD then it will probably be less of an issue (though still, imo, too high impact) because people will play accordingly, but playing MLD in a meta that isn't expecting it is especially unfair imo.
Yeah it is a thorny topic because I don't disagree with anything you are saying but also I am not going to hold anything against the player in the corner who has that in their deck and it has a chance to completely change the game in their favor.
I feel like most people will not find it controversial in the method that is used to close out the game quickly (the Krenko deck that has a critical mass of board and cycles a decree of annihilation for example). However I still do not think casting or utilizing those cards in a variety of situations in the game would be considered the wrong play.
Well, for a start, you are not really limited to one land per turn. That's kind the whole point of the thread - people ramping, typically by getting extra land into play. What's the difference between a Rampant Growth and a Sky Diamond? But even then, so what? I'm wondering what the difference between destroying land based mana sources in play and destroying non-land mana sources in play is. I've had plenty of games where the majority of my mana came from artifacts or creatures. Having them destroyed would turn off my ability to play the game far more than someone blowing up my lands. So why is it OK to do one of those things but not the other?
You asked a question, and I answered it. The obvious difference in those two cards is one puts a land into play, while the other does not. If you have chosen to use more rocks and dorks, you may do so knowing those very often get wiped. How often something gets destroyed should factor into how much of it you play. Also to get to that point, you needed land. You could rebound from that because you NEED land, those other items are not required.
If people agree to not play Bane of Progress or Vandalblast or Austere Command or Wrath of God when I'm dependent on things they destroy for the bulk of my mana, I'd be fine to not use Armageddon when people are dependent on land for the bulk of their mana.
If thats the sort of social contract you wish to setup, by all means do so. I don't think thats going to fly in most groups, but everyone plays differently.
I find it interesting you said
and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha".
when it seems you actually did. You knew exactly what was going to be said, and countered it in the most obvious way possible.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Yeah it is a thorny topic because I don't disagree with anything you are saying but also I am not going to hold anything against the player in the corner who has that in their deck and it has a chance to completely change the game in their favor.
Quite different saying you play something because you want or you say you play something because it's a good and righteous way to fight an oppressive strategy.
I can bear the land destruction even if i'd rather visit my dentist; i can't bear someone's lies because he want to feel morally superior
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
You are not limited to one artifact or creature per turn by rules. You don't have to have artifact mana or dorks to play the game. You must have lands, and there is a limit per turn, to start any sort of meaningful game (with a few corner cases). You do not turn off people's ability to play the game with destruction of artifacts or mana dorks. In a format where we are supposed to care about others having fun, that should matter.
You are not limited to one land per turn, as you can use one of many spells to get another one. There are lots of cards that allow you to play additional lands per turn as well, including one for 3 cmc that can be in your command zone. Just like a creature deck doesn’t have to run out every single creature into a wrath, you don’t have to run out every land into MLD.
Yeah it is a thorny topic because I don't disagree with anything you are saying but also I am not going to hold anything against the player in the corner who has that in their deck and it has a chance to completely change the game in their favor.
Quite different saying you play something because you want or you say you play something because it's a good and righteous way to fight an oppressive strategy.
I can bear the land destruction even if i'd rather visit my dentist; i can't bear someone's lies because he want to feel morally superior
I don't appreciate being called a liar out of the blue.
My arguments for the cards that encompass MLD and the use of MLD as a means to combat ramp can be varied and different because those topics are, and this thread has gone all over the place.
You are not limited to one land per turn, as you can use one of many spells to get another one. There are lots of cards that allow you to play additional lands per turn as well, including one for 3 cmc that can be in your command zone. Just like a creature deck doesn’t have to run out every single creature into a wrath, you don’t have to run out every land into MLD.
You seem to be purposely conflating ramp and playing one land per turn as the base rule. I am quite aware you can get multiple lands into play. Under the normal rules you can play one per turn, no such restrictions exist for other card types. If you suspect a board wipe is coming, you can hold back creatures and play as many as you like, limited by mana, post wipe. That is patently untrue about land. And again, you do not need those other card types to play the game, you need land. Post Wrath games still function fluidly, and people rebuild. Post Armageddon games turn into 'draw go' very often, because people can't play anything.
I have zero issue with targeted LD, and even agree MLD is a strategy you can leverage to win. It being possible, and it being fun, are very different animals.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I don't appreciate being called a liar out of the blue.
I don't see where i called you liar.
You said that MLD can in some narrow cases help against ramp but it's mostly used to put yourself at advantage or secure yourself the victory. That's the truth.
If someone says that they are putting MLD just because ramp is unfair, they don't gain any adavantage from MLD but just want to make everything balanced and fair, they are liars. And i don't want to hear how i shouldn't attack them because the armageddon in their deck is there to help me too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
You are not limited to one land per turn, as you can use one of many spells to get another one. There are lots of cards that allow you to play additional lands per turn as well, including one for 3 cmc that can be in your command zone. Just like a creature deck doesn’t have to run out every single creature into a wrath, you don’t have to run out every land into MLD.
You seem to be purposely conflating ramp and playing one land per turn as the base rule. I am quite aware you can get multiple lands into play. Under the normal rules you can play one per turn, no such restrictions exist for other card types. If you suspect a board wipe is coming, you can hold back creatures and play as many as you like, limited by mana, post wipe. That is patently untrue about land. And again, you do not need those other card types to play the game, you need land. Post Wrath games still function fluidly, and people rebuild. Post Armageddon games turn into 'draw go' very often, because people can't play anything.
I have zero issue with targeted LD, and even agree MLD is a strategy you can leverage to win. It being possible, and it being fun, are very different animals.
The player will untap with 7 mana on turn 4. Every other player needs to hold up mana to respond or risk getting totally buried in advantage by the ramper. Now, if that player has to assume that MLD could be coming, then that player is free to sandbag a ramp spell and a couple lands and recover from a 'Geddon. Instead, because of this notion that lands are sacred, a player can aggressively tutor lands out of their library and fix their mana, setting up for huge turns with no downside.
This player will untap with 6 mana, plus a land drop, and whether there's a Wrath of God, Shatterstorm or Armageddon, the player will be able to rebuild their mana. This player also may understand that you can;t just assume your mana will stay intact, so instead of running 4-5 versions of Blue Sun's Zenith the player is running a Divination to refuel.
If people don't like MLD, I get it. People don't like Wrath. People don't like Vandalblast. These are all hurdles one should expect to overcome. If you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to losing all of your mana because you have no diversity or you play out all of your mana, that's on you.
You are not limited to one land per turn, as you can use one of many spells to get another one. There are lots of cards that allow you to play additional lands per turn as well, including one for 3 cmc that can be in your command zone. Just like a creature deck doesn’t have to run out every single creature into a wrath, you don’t have to run out every land into MLD.
You seem to be purposely conflating ramp and playing one land per turn as the base rule. I am quite aware you can get multiple lands into play. Under the normal rules you can play one per turn, no such restrictions exist for other card types. If you suspect a board wipe is coming, you can hold back creatures and play as many as you like, limited by mana, post wipe. That is patently untrue about land. And again, you do not need those other card types to play the game, you need land. Post Wrath games still function fluidly, and people rebuild. Post Armageddon games turn into 'draw go' very often, because people can't play anything.
I have zero issue with targeted LD, and even agree MLD is a strategy you can leverage to win. It being possible, and it being fun, are very different animals.
The player will untap with 7 mana on turn 4. Every other player needs to hold up mana to respond or risk getting totally buried in advantage by the ramper. Now, if that player has to assume that MLD could be coming, then that player is free to sandbag a ramp spell and a couple lands and recover from a 'Geddon. Instead, because of this notion that lands are sacred, a player can aggressively tutor lands out of their library and fix their mana, setting up for huge turns with no downside.
First off, this is freaking Christmasland if I’ve ever seen it. 6 of 9 possible cards being played out like this? This is the example you choose? I’ve played decks with these cards, in 1 out of ~100 would I ever get a start like this. Beyond that, this is no different, yet more resource intensive, than a Sol Ring + a Signet in the first 3 turns. So, you’re out to punish that ramp player(and the other players who didn’t Ramp) after he’s played 6 of his 9 cards? Let me guess, they have Blue Sun’s Zenith, right? Or probably Timetwister, ‘cause that’s how this stuff plays out.
This player will untap with 6 mana, plus a land drop, and whether there's a Wrath of God, Shatterstorm or Armageddon, the player will be able to rebuild their mana. This player also may understand that you can;t just assume your mana will stay intact, so instead of running 4-5 versions of Blue Sun's Zenith the player is running a Divination to refuel.
If people don't like MLD, I get it. People don't like Wrath. People don't like Vandalblast. These are all hurdles one should expect to overcome. If you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to losing all of your mana because you have no diversity or you play out all of your mana, that's on you.
This is still ramp, though. You aren’t combatting anything. The only thing you are doing is resetting the game, which is annoying as f***.
If anything, the examples you give are examples of poorly employed use of MLD. There is literally single digit percentages difference in the probability of the ramp player bricking on subsequent draws to not recover. Then, when they inevitably do, they’ll bury the table because you probably can’t answer anything at that point.
Ramp relies on having a grip of cards in hand and a board presence. Attack the hand and board and you cripple ramp and non-ramp alike. As forcing them into top-deck mode from such resource denial puts them into an unlikely state to comeback and would be better off conceding. For example casting Decree of Annihilation, chaining it then with Ignorant Bliss, then proceeding would cause everyone else into such a state in mono red while you at least have a hand. Splash into white and you can perform Teferi's Protection + Decree of Annihilation instead to maintain boardstate instead of a hand. A combination of all three while impractical due to cost, is in fact possible and would be the biggest one-sided advantage.
They printed a perfectly reasonable form of MLD in Ajani Vengeant that affects only one player. If they went that manner now, it would be much fairer as it only hit one player instead of everyone. Yet that is unlikely to happen based on their current design philosophies. If it did happen, my bet is it would be overcosted.
In the hopes of derailing the current direction a bit, i got 3 other possible solutions that don't involve MLD (since this isn't about MLD):
1. talk to the ramp players and convince them to tone it down a bit
2. field a deck that preys on ramp-heavy decks/lands_control.deck
3. field a deck that seriously pushes ramp to its max; as in just do what the existing ramp decks do, but significantly better.
Both of them are somewhat viable as a way to combat ramp; with 1, especially if there are enough people in your playgroup who are getting sick of each game devolving into the same vomit up lands and win via big beaters or whatever, i'm sure it'd be pretty effective.
Point 2 is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek response, obviously, but don't say that it aint effective (yes, child of alara constantly wiping the board and wasteland+strip mine+dark depths+thespian's stage loop with life from the loam is that fun. Also, you get to specifically target the ramp player with all the targeted land destruction under the guise of 'fairness'. You can also run an ultra-tight aggro pressure deck that kills them while they're just durdling about ramping the first 6 turns).
Point 3 is the "turn that salt-truck the other way round" sort of strategy, where you show the ramp player(s) how unfun it is to be on the crushed end of that game, especially if the natural predator of ramp decks isn't kosher in the play group (this is also a tongue-in-cheek response that i had thought about doing, but decided against). The risk with this obviously is that they might just try to tune their deck more, and out-ramp you instead.
If you want to combat ramp in 'the spirit of EDH' way, then i'd suggest coming up with a shortlist of 2-3 things that makes playing against ramp unfun, and then talk to the ramp player(s) with evidence+some convincing+gentlepeople's agreement. Maybe it makes all games very samey. Maybe it's that green is overrepresented because of the lack of MLD that red/white has that combats it. Maybe everyone's sick of seeing that iname as one ramp deck that's crushing the meta game after game (i'd want to see this in real life though). But whatever it is, i'm sure it's possible to do this. One tip though, when you do the talk, remember it's the deck that's problematic, and not necessarily the person. Strangely enough, people tend to react poorly to being accused of things no matter how valid the accusations are.
The player will untap with 7 mana on turn 4. Every other player needs to hold up mana to respond or risk getting totally buried in advantage by the ramper.
Hey man, nice 8-drop you played on turn 5! Mind if i copy it and make it better?
Whaaat? You wanna play another? Thank you for the gift
Hey there, your commander too? You are too kind!
And meanwhile, all other players still have lands so they can actually fight the ramp player with removals too? Man, that sounds almost like magic
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Hesitant to weigh in on what thus far has been quite an animated thread, but for the sake of having a say:
Here's a line of play:
- Turn 1 Forest
- Turn 2 - Island, Rampant Growth getting Forest
- Turn 3 - Forest, Skyshroud Claim getting two Forests, Farseek get Island
The player will untap with 7 mana on turn 4. Every other player needs to hold up mana to respond or risk getting totally buried in advantage by the ramper.
I saw better than this yesterday in similar colours within the last 24 hours, with only 2 land used:
Xenagod Commander:
T1: Mana Crypt into Sol Ring, play Forest, play Sylvan Library.
T2: Play Survival of the Fittest, play Forest, play Lurking Predators.
During next player's turn LP turns over a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. Before his T3.
(FWIW he didn't win - I drew into a Song of the Dryads for Kozi and he ran out of steam after being targetted down by the rest of the board)
So, land ramp provides good advantage. Yes, it does. But I've never seen the above sort of play outside of low costed, high impact mana rocks. FWIW I don't think MLD is the answer to ramp - I'm not against it as a tactic per se, in the right context and so long as the meta is happy with it. Besides which, turbo ramp decks will often run ample land recursion anyway, so MLD seems a fool's errand in this context.
I think the answer is to perform proper threat assessment, deny said player relevant board presence, and keep yourself in the game. The scenario mentioned above, sure player has seven lands T4 or whatever, but also has mostly an empty hand. At this point in the game I'd rather have some land in play and decent draw to refill my hand than a table full of land and an empty grip. That's the thing, explosive starts don't always win games. Sometimes they do, sure. What wins most of the games I play (whether it's me that wins or not) is making sure your deck has as much or more stamina than anyone else's. I just think that while ramp is ubiquitous, in a vacuum it's maybe not quite the bogeyman that we're chalking it up to be; or at least, it's omnipresent enough that it's fairly out of the ordinary for one player at a table to get totally out of hand.
Of course, this is just my two cents, your opinions may vary.
Now, if that player has to assume that MLD could be coming, then that player is free to sandbag a ramp spell and a couple lands and recover from a 'Geddon. Instead, because of this notion that lands are sacred, a player can aggressively tutor lands out of their library and fix their mana, setting up for huge turns with no downside.
If you think this sort of thing slows down the ramp player, we have very different ideas of what rampers do. They are the best set up to recover, no matter if they sand bagged or not. Thats why MLD isn't an answer to ramp even in this magical Christmas land
If people don't like MLD, I get it. People don't like Wrath. People don't like Vandalblast. These are all hurdles one should expect to overcome. If you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to losing all of your mana because you have no diversity or you play out all of your mana, that's on you.
No, people understand the need to wrath, and Vandalblast, but you incorrectly equating them to Geddon is never going to be understood. People play rocks and dorks, but know its usually short lived. Diversity is great, but those things get nuked all the time.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Vandalblast to blow up everyone's rocks? They use their lands to cast more rocks and other stuff and keep playing.
Wrath effects to zap all the creatures? Players use lands to cast more creatures and other stuff, the game moves on.
Blow up all the lands? Most of the players, save those (including, non-coincidentally, the one who played the MLD) who are prepared for this, draw cards hoping to draw into something that might put them back into the game. Most of the time they draw and go. Even if they draw a land, they mostly draw and go until they do that a couple of times. The game crawls to the stall, unless the MLD guy can pull off a win pretty much immediately.
People who don't see the difference in these conditions either should play only with people who like the same thing, or maybe just stick to playing competitive formats. Or playing with themselves, I suppose.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
That said, I think it's a sad state of affairs when all decks are ramp decks. Yawn.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You won't find me disagreeing with that, and I certainly wouldn't force a group that didn't want to play MLD to start running it or vice-versa (and for the record, my playrgoup's attitude to MLD [as with most strategies] is "fine, but not every game"). I'm really just trying to get my head round the attitude of "MLD is uniquely bad" that some people seem to have by pointing out the experiences I've had with this format in which other effects that seem far more tolerated will do the same thing as 'Geddon and that the "can't play at all" experience of the latter isn't something I see that often.
I think there's a difference between a full on ramp deck which is trying to completely break the 1 mana/turn baseline, and a "normal" deck that still wants to have a bit of acceleration/fixing from spells. My group is mainly the latter, although we certainly have a few "big mana" decks around (mostly green based, though I do have a Kozilek deck with a rather ridiculous amount of rocks - that's a deck for which a Bane of Progress or, god forbid, an early Null Rod is far more harmful to my ability to play Magic than an Armageddon).
If a deck consistently has ramp in the first few turns, you'd expect probably like 10% ramp? Idk, I'd call that a ramp deck. Doesn't have to be all-in.
And null rod you can just remove, that's way more interactive than geddon, even ignoring the part where geddon can completely remove mana while null rod usually cannot.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Oh well finally.
MLD isn't used to combat ramp. It's used t support artifact ramp or commanders that don't require many lands.
To me, that's a pretty typical EDH deck - 33-37 lands, 6-10 ramp spells. The kind of thing I see all over the place with all sorts of strategies and power levels. Even if your deck is mainly CMC 4 or less, getting to the top of the curve a turn early, is great and such things can really help with fixing if you're 3+ colours. I don't consider putting in a few rocks, dorks and/or land fetching spells to be anything even worth remarking on. So yeah, maybe this is just a definitions thing. When I see the OP complaining about ramp, I assumed it was the kind of decks that have 10 mana on T6, not the ones that untap with 4 mana T4 then maybe miss a land drop. And, yeah, I certainly don't regard MLD as a particularly good answer to all in ramp - not only will a well built ramp deck have non-land based acceleration, they can also recover quicker from the wipe.
Sometimes. Sometimes you're dependent on your artifacts to make the mana you need to remove it (you try finding efficiently costed removal when you're playing a colourless deck - or how about any enchantment removal barring the one Chaos Warp if you're a red artifact deck and it was a Stony Silence). Also, Armageddon negates the land you've played prior to it but then leaves you free to recover. Null Rod negates both the stuff you've already played and and such cards you play in the future. Not saying it's always more damaging to your ability to play than a 'Geddon, but against some decks it certainly can be worse.
MLD is especially problematic imo because (1) it affects every deck, somewhere on the spectrum between "pretty big deal" to "instantly lose the game deal" and (2) there's really no telling where it's coming from, and (3) it's hard to prepare for, especially given how rarely it comes up. It's the sort of thing that, if commander was best-of-3 with sideboarding (don't ask me how) it would be a much lesser deal, because it IS play-aroundable to a certain extent, by preventing the MLD player from ever getting too far ahead (although that's still a lot to ask for a single 4-mana card). The problem with its status in commander right now is that it's unexpected, extremely high impact, and difficult enough to play around that it's generally incorrect to do so given the rarity and generally frowning-upon it receives. If a meta consistently plays MLD then it will probably be less of an issue (though still, imo, too high impact) because people will play accordingly, but playing MLD in a meta that isn't expecting it is especially unfair imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I feel like most people will not find it controversial in the method that is used to close out the game quickly (the Krenko deck that has a critical mass of board and cycles a decree of annihilation for example). However I still do not think casting or utilizing those cards in a variety of situations in the game would be considered the wrong play.
If thats the sort of social contract you wish to setup, by all means do so. I don't think thats going to fly in most groups, but everyone plays differently.
I find it interesting you said when it seems you actually did. You knew exactly what was going to be said, and countered it in the most obvious way possible.
Quite different saying you play something because you want or you say you play something because it's a good and righteous way to fight an oppressive strategy.
I can bear the land destruction even if i'd rather visit my dentist; i can't bear someone's lies because he want to feel morally superior
You are not limited to one land per turn, as you can use one of many spells to get another one. There are lots of cards that allow you to play additional lands per turn as well, including one for 3 cmc that can be in your command zone. Just like a creature deck doesn’t have to run out every single creature into a wrath, you don’t have to run out every land into MLD.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
I don't appreciate being called a liar out of the blue.
My arguments for the cards that encompass MLD and the use of MLD as a means to combat ramp can be varied and different because those topics are, and this thread has gone all over the place.
I have zero issue with targeted LD, and even agree MLD is a strategy you can leverage to win. It being possible, and it being fun, are very different animals.
I don't see where i called you liar.
You said that MLD can in some narrow cases help against ramp but it's mostly used to put yourself at advantage or secure yourself the victory. That's the truth.
If someone says that they are putting MLD just because ramp is unfair, they don't gain any adavantage from MLD but just want to make everything balanced and fair, they are liars. And i don't want to hear how i shouldn't attack them because the armageddon in their deck is there to help me too.
Here's a line of play:
- Turn 1 Forest
- Turn 2 - Island, Rampant Growth getting Forest
- Turn 3 - Forest, Skyshroud Claim getting two Forests, Farseek get Island
The player will untap with 7 mana on turn 4. Every other player needs to hold up mana to respond or risk getting totally buried in advantage by the ramper. Now, if that player has to assume that MLD could be coming, then that player is free to sandbag a ramp spell and a couple lands and recover from a 'Geddon. Instead, because of this notion that lands are sacred, a player can aggressively tutor lands out of their library and fix their mana, setting up for huge turns with no downside.
Contrast that with
- Turn 1 Forest
- Turn 2 Island, Simic Signet
- Turn 3 Forest, Cultivate, Elvish Mystic
This player will untap with 6 mana, plus a land drop, and whether there's a Wrath of God, Shatterstorm or Armageddon, the player will be able to rebuild their mana. This player also may understand that you can;t just assume your mana will stay intact, so instead of running 4-5 versions of Blue Sun's Zenith the player is running a Divination to refuel.
If people don't like MLD, I get it. People don't like Wrath. People don't like Vandalblast. These are all hurdles one should expect to overcome. If you leave yourself extremely vulnerable to losing all of your mana because you have no diversity or you play out all of your mana, that's on you.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
First off, this is freaking Christmasland if I’ve ever seen it. 6 of 9 possible cards being played out like this? This is the example you choose? I’ve played decks with these cards, in 1 out of ~100 would I ever get a start like this. Beyond that, this is no different, yet more resource intensive, than a Sol Ring + a Signet in the first 3 turns. So, you’re out to punish that ramp player(and the other players who didn’t Ramp) after he’s played 6 of his 9 cards? Let me guess, they have Blue Sun’s Zenith, right? Or probably Timetwister, ‘cause that’s how this stuff plays out.
This is still ramp, though. You aren’t combatting anything. The only thing you are doing is resetting the game, which is annoying as f***.
If anything, the examples you give are examples of poorly employed use of MLD. There is literally single digit percentages difference in the probability of the ramp player bricking on subsequent draws to not recover. Then, when they inevitably do, they’ll bury the table because you probably can’t answer anything at that point.
Ramp relies on having a grip of cards in hand and a board presence. Attack the hand and board and you cripple ramp and non-ramp alike. As forcing them into top-deck mode from such resource denial puts them into an unlikely state to comeback and would be better off conceding. For example casting Decree of Annihilation, chaining it then with Ignorant Bliss, then proceeding would cause everyone else into such a state in mono red while you at least have a hand. Splash into white and you can perform Teferi's Protection + Decree of Annihilation instead to maintain boardstate instead of a hand. A combination of all three while impractical due to cost, is in fact possible and would be the biggest one-sided advantage.
They printed a perfectly reasonable form of MLD in Ajani Vengeant that affects only one player. If they went that manner now, it would be much fairer as it only hit one player instead of everyone. Yet that is unlikely to happen based on their current design philosophies. If it did happen, my bet is it would be overcosted.
1. talk to the ramp players and convince them to tone it down a bit
2. field a deck that preys on ramp-heavy decks/lands_control.deck
3. field a deck that seriously pushes ramp to its max; as in just do what the existing ramp decks do, but significantly better.
Both of them are somewhat viable as a way to combat ramp; with 1, especially if there are enough people in your playgroup who are getting sick of each game devolving into the same vomit up lands and win via big beaters or whatever, i'm sure it'd be pretty effective.
Point 2 is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek response, obviously, but don't say that it aint effective (yes, child of alara constantly wiping the board and wasteland+strip mine+dark depths+thespian's stage loop with life from the loam is that fun. Also, you get to specifically target the ramp player with all the targeted land destruction under the guise of 'fairness'. You can also run an ultra-tight aggro pressure deck that kills them while they're just durdling about ramping the first 6 turns).
Point 3 is the "turn that salt-truck the other way round" sort of strategy, where you show the ramp player(s) how unfun it is to be on the crushed end of that game, especially if the natural predator of ramp decks isn't kosher in the play group (this is also a tongue-in-cheek response that i had thought about doing, but decided against). The risk with this obviously is that they might just try to tune their deck more, and out-ramp you instead.
If you want to combat ramp in 'the spirit of EDH' way, then i'd suggest coming up with a shortlist of 2-3 things that makes playing against ramp unfun, and then talk to the ramp player(s) with evidence+some convincing+gentlepeople's agreement. Maybe it makes all games very samey. Maybe it's that green is overrepresented because of the lack of MLD that red/white has that combats it. Maybe everyone's sick of seeing that iname as one ramp deck that's crushing the meta game after game (i'd want to see this in real life though). But whatever it is, i'm sure it's possible to do this. One tip though, when you do the talk, remember it's the deck that's problematic, and not necessarily the person. Strangely enough, people tend to react poorly to being accused of things no matter how valid the accusations are.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa + Goblin Sharpshooter / Thornbite Staff
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa + Evacuation / Whelming Wave
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa + Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite / Crovax, Ascendant Hero
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa + Porphyry Nodes / Drop of Honey
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa + Magus of the Balance / Restore Balance
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa + The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Magus of the Tabernacle / Pendrell Mists
And that is just WG with maybe a splash of U or R.
Hey man, nice 8-drop you played on turn 5! Mind if i copy it and make it better?
Whaaat? You wanna play another? Thank you for the gift
Hey there, your commander too? You are too kind!
And meanwhile, all other players still have lands so they can actually fight the ramp player with removals too? Man, that sounds almost like magic
I saw better than this yesterday in similar colours within the last 24 hours, with only 2 land used:
Xenagod Commander:
T1: Mana Crypt into Sol Ring, play Forest, play Sylvan Library.
T2: Play Survival of the Fittest, play Forest, play Lurking Predators.
During next player's turn LP turns over a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. Before his T3.
(FWIW he didn't win - I drew into a Song of the Dryads for Kozi and he ran out of steam after being targetted down by the rest of the board)
So, land ramp provides good advantage. Yes, it does. But I've never seen the above sort of play outside of low costed, high impact mana rocks. FWIW I don't think MLD is the answer to ramp - I'm not against it as a tactic per se, in the right context and so long as the meta is happy with it. Besides which, turbo ramp decks will often run ample land recursion anyway, so MLD seems a fool's errand in this context.
I think the answer is to perform proper threat assessment, deny said player relevant board presence, and keep yourself in the game. The scenario mentioned above, sure player has seven lands T4 or whatever, but also has mostly an empty hand. At this point in the game I'd rather have some land in play and decent draw to refill my hand than a table full of land and an empty grip. That's the thing, explosive starts don't always win games. Sometimes they do, sure. What wins most of the games I play (whether it's me that wins or not) is making sure your deck has as much or more stamina than anyone else's. I just think that while ramp is ubiquitous, in a vacuum it's maybe not quite the bogeyman that we're chalking it up to be; or at least, it's omnipresent enough that it's fairly out of the ordinary for one player at a table to get totally out of hand.
Of course, this is just my two cents, your opinions may vary.
No, people understand the need to wrath, and Vandalblast, but you incorrectly equating them to Geddon is never going to be understood. People play rocks and dorks, but know its usually short lived. Diversity is great, but those things get nuked all the time.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Vandalblast to blow up everyone's rocks? They use their lands to cast more rocks and other stuff and keep playing.
Wrath effects to zap all the creatures? Players use lands to cast more creatures and other stuff, the game moves on.
Blow up all the lands? Most of the players, save those (including, non-coincidentally, the one who played the MLD) who are prepared for this, draw cards hoping to draw into something that might put them back into the game. Most of the time they draw and go. Even if they draw a land, they mostly draw and go until they do that a couple of times. The game crawls to the stall, unless the MLD guy can pull off a win pretty much immediately.
People who don't see the difference in these conditions either should play only with people who like the same thing, or maybe just stick to playing competitive formats. Or playing with themselves, I suppose.