I never miss an opportunity to attack. Even if I know the person I attack is the type of person to hold a grudge, I'll still do it. I also find that I often start the game as the archenemy just from playing foil lands.
All of the long EDH games that were bad games, were due to slow play from 1-2 players. They drag on, durdle or no-durdle, slow players make actions/phases take a long time.
All of the long EDH games that were good, were due to lots of back and forth. You can have lots of back and forth and not play slow. These games were long but didn't take "too long." It was fun to whole game.
Just had a to get a rant out about slow players. It's the number one reason why games take too long. And to me the only one that actually matters. Long games, short games, let's just play the most amount of good games possible.
One thing that helped our games go faster was swinging in for chip damage (that one or two damage on early turns with a creature you're not using for something else or that you play for an ETB) helps speed up the game.
Speed the game up? Oh, that's simple: Just toss in an infinite combo for "Okay, I didn't want to use this, but the game's taking forever, so here you go."
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Speed the game up? Oh, that's simple: Just toss in an infinite combo for "Okay, I didn't want to use this, but the game's taking forever, so here you go."
There's an important distinction between long games and a game that lasts more turns. Slow play makes those combo decks take "too long."
Those slow players using Jhoira and 0cc artifacts and Paradox Engine still move as the pace of molasses.
I've experienced this issue in multiple playgroup. These were the most effective solutions in my experience.
1) Using shortcutting for tutoring: 2 of the groups I play with honor players cracking fetches and use top activations before waiting to get to the player-to-the-right's endstep with the premise that, if a game action or change in game state would change that choice, they can without penalty. For fetches, that's physically denoted by shuffling the library, finding the land, and jamming it into the corner of your library so it sticks out.
This speeds up the end of turn delays while actively engaging that player on other people's turns, which has shaved off up to 10 mins in a six player game to turn 10.
2) Introduce reward mechanics to entice players to act. Playing cards that give monarch is huge, as everyone knows how badly player will want to draw cards. The same is true for running cards like Edric and Curse of Opulence; work really well and dont water your deck down by running them.
3) Play bigger threats for creatures. When player play with cards like Etali, Con-Sphonx and the like, players are incentivised to act because not acting is just going to give the game away. Oftentimes, the bigger the threat that resolves, the more a table has to wiri together to beat it, and that can mean trying to kill that player before they untap. This is especially true if someone flashes Brago, Grand Arbiter Augustin, Derevi, or other such commanders at the start of the game.
4) Play more lands. There are so many times that mana scree forces 15 minutes of mulligans until everyone is ready to start a game. When in doubt, add the extra land, and games will actually start on time. This took much longer to sink in with one group, but now that everyone has been tightening up their mana bases, games have been more enjoyable and there have been less feel-bads overall.
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
If people aren’t chipping in for damage when they have a clear attack and are not under threat of immediate attack themselves, that’s a player problem. Chip damage is basically required to make sure games don’t last eons.
And when you have a chance to eliminate a player, unless you have a compelling reason not to, do it. Yesterday, the player to my left and the player to his left each had 34/34 Consuming Aberration. On my turn 6, I asked the player to my left if he would kill the other player if I removed his only blocker. He said yes, so I removed it and BOOM, player down. Then the 4th player and I teamed up to take out the guy with the remaining Abberation, and it took us 3 more turns to finish the game. The entire game took 40 minutes, and we ran back another one with different decks, which took another 45 minutes before the guy who died first in Game 1 put together an infinite damage combo. 2 games in less than 90 minutes.
our games last 1-1,5 hours in three. We don't play combo or other things to speed the game up... the game just ends at some point.
Some quick rules:
1) attack. always. if your creature can go unpunished, attack. if you don't want to enrage anyone, throw a dice or just attack someone because he has the highest life total.
2) if you tutor something (lands, especially) that has no relevance on the current turn, just announce what you are tutoring for and pass. tutor it while your opponents do their turns.
3) don't run too many board reset cards and especially don't play them unless it's really necessary
this work for us
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I know EDH's convention for multiplayer is all on all, but why? If it's casual and you have an even number, team up. Use some 2HG format or make your own. Games will.be faster, but also, if you get eliminated first you don't have to wait 1-2 hours for the next one to start
if you have 5 players, play star (each player's immediate left and right are teammates. You can't attack teammates, but you CAN target them with things. If a player's 2 opponents lose the game, they win)
Make your deck lower on the curve, add more pressure, force the other players to answer to you.
At worst, if no one else in your playgroup wants to play shorter games, then find a new playgroup. It's tough trying to change the outlook of the whole playgroup, especially if they don't want to.
Tutoring and passing is the big one in my experience. "Gonna just Cultivate/Diabolic Tutor/Eladamri's Call, go ahead." Generally it's just fine to assume people won't change what they're tutoring due to what's happening (and if they do, that's a whole other playgroup problem).
2HG and Star are also good options for shorter games.
Personally I always try to build decks that 1.) somehow enable others (global draw/mana) but benefit myself the most; 2.) play quick and straightforward; 3.) are the deck that forces others to react. Either you're going to do something about my third 20/20 trampley hydra, or the game ends in rapid succession.
Also, just simply thinking ahead what you're going to do on your turns. Harder to say how much folks do this of course, but my mind is on a constant 'okay, so if nothing major changes, gonna do this and this on my turn...'-run.
Ban trade binders and non-lifecounter smartphones from the table.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
It seems like noone wants to piss off anyone else so they dont attack.
Did you already talk to the players about this particular problem? I'm just asking because you wrote that "it seems".
If it's a fact that many of the people you play regularly with (say about 2/3) think that attacking causes feelings like "why are you always targeting me? You did it last game already!" and maybe even anger to some extend, then this is an issue of communication. How do people usually react in group group when they are targeted?
Just a reminder from a game I had about two weeks ago: I was playing a Ghalta Stompy deck that's super slow, super casual and really more of an old-school kitchen table deck a kid at the age of 10 would play (I mean, remember those times? Slamming 8/8 everywhere and opening a booster with some big monster? No one really cared about rarity or money value.). Anyway, long story short, on turn 4 I had my first dude out and started attacking on turn 5. I randomly chose someone because I didn't know a single person or deck I was playing against. Well, turned out the guy was quite pissed off by that and no one really wanted to attack him because of this attitude. He won because no one touched his board state properly or attacked him. I thought: "Well, first game - let's see how the second one turns out!"
During the second game I was targeted from the beginning until the end by that exact same player. He took me out on turn 6 or 7, normally I would be fine with that - but this attitude was quite unnecessary and "childish" in some way. His board state was even worse during the second game and again, no one dared to attack him. Next time I will be in such a situation I would talk to the person nicely and try to get a hint why he's doing that.
But still, there's always the possibility that you meet people that simply don't want to talk and get pissy just by touching anything on their board. One has to move on in such a situation ;).
Here are some questions that you can ask yourself:
- why is everyone pissed off after being attacked?
- what does happen if someone executes a game winning combo?
- do you/others enjoy long games?
Some "solutions":
- communication is key when someone is getting pissy
- play a general that doesn't focus directly, let's say Kaervek the Merciless
- you want to attack first but don't know who's going to get hit? Roll a die.
- play a bit more risky
- think ahead what you want to do during your next turn
- ...
Some things that slow the games down:
- tutoring (without shortcuts)
- complicated synergy decks
- not being actively present during a game (with the mind)
- playing to much control and not enough action cards
- durdling
- stax
- too much jank
- ...
Also, if I notice someone has a free attack, I suggest they attack, even if it means attacking me.
Bruse Tarl & Kraum, Ludevic's Opus
Mayael the Anima
All of the long EDH games that were bad games, were due to slow play from 1-2 players. They drag on, durdle or no-durdle, slow players make actions/phases take a long time.
All of the long EDH games that were good, were due to lots of back and forth. You can have lots of back and forth and not play slow. These games were long but didn't take "too long." It was fun to whole game.
Just had a to get a rant out about slow players. It's the number one reason why games take too long. And to me the only one that actually matters. Long games, short games, let's just play the most amount of good games possible.
...alternatively, i tend to beat on the durdliest player regardless of everything else to either force them to interact more, or die.
Building: Varina
On phasing:
There's an important distinction between long games and a game that lasts more turns. Slow play makes those combo decks take "too long."
Those slow players using Jhoira and 0cc artifacts and Paradox Engine still move as the pace of molasses.
1) Using shortcutting for tutoring: 2 of the groups I play with honor players cracking fetches and use top activations before waiting to get to the player-to-the-right's endstep with the premise that, if a game action or change in game state would change that choice, they can without penalty. For fetches, that's physically denoted by shuffling the library, finding the land, and jamming it into the corner of your library so it sticks out.
This speeds up the end of turn delays while actively engaging that player on other people's turns, which has shaved off up to 10 mins in a six player game to turn 10.
2) Introduce reward mechanics to entice players to act. Playing cards that give monarch is huge, as everyone knows how badly player will want to draw cards. The same is true for running cards like Edric and Curse of Opulence; work really well and dont water your deck down by running them.
3) Play bigger threats for creatures. When player play with cards like Etali, Con-Sphonx and the like, players are incentivised to act because not acting is just going to give the game away. Oftentimes, the bigger the threat that resolves, the more a table has to wiri together to beat it, and that can mean trying to kill that player before they untap. This is especially true if someone flashes Brago, Grand Arbiter Augustin, Derevi, or other such commanders at the start of the game.
4) Play more lands. There are so many times that mana scree forces 15 minutes of mulligans until everyone is ready to start a game. When in doubt, add the extra land, and games will actually start on time. This took much longer to sink in with one group, but now that everyone has been tightening up their mana bases, games have been more enjoyable and there have been less feel-bads overall.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
And when you have a chance to eliminate a player, unless you have a compelling reason not to, do it. Yesterday, the player to my left and the player to his left each had 34/34 Consuming Aberration. On my turn 6, I asked the player to my left if he would kill the other player if I removed his only blocker. He said yes, so I removed it and BOOM, player down. Then the 4th player and I teamed up to take out the guy with the remaining Abberation, and it took us 3 more turns to finish the game. The entire game took 40 minutes, and we ran back another one with different decks, which took another 45 minutes before the guy who died first in Game 1 put together an infinite damage combo. 2 games in less than 90 minutes.
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
BRXantchaRB
BGVarolzGB
URWZedruuWRU
Some quick rules:
1) attack. always. if your creature can go unpunished, attack. if you don't want to enrage anyone, throw a dice or just attack someone because he has the highest life total.
2) if you tutor something (lands, especially) that has no relevance on the current turn, just announce what you are tutoring for and pass. tutor it while your opponents do their turns.
3) don't run too many board reset cards and especially don't play them unless it's really necessary
this work for us
I know EDH's convention for multiplayer is all on all, but why? If it's casual and you have an even number, team up. Use some 2HG format or make your own. Games will.be faster, but also, if you get eliminated first you don't have to wait 1-2 hours for the next one to start
Make your deck lower on the curve, add more pressure, force the other players to answer to you.
At worst, if no one else in your playgroup wants to play shorter games, then find a new playgroup. It's tough trying to change the outlook of the whole playgroup, especially if they don't want to.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
2HG and Star are also good options for shorter games.
Personally I always try to build decks that 1.) somehow enable others (global draw/mana) but benefit myself the most; 2.) play quick and straightforward; 3.) are the deck that forces others to react. Either you're going to do something about my third 20/20 trampley hydra, or the game ends in rapid succession.
Also, just simply thinking ahead what you're going to do on your turns. Harder to say how much folks do this of course, but my mind is on a constant 'okay, so if nothing major changes, gonna do this and this on my turn...'-run.
Ban trade binders and non-lifecounter smartphones from the table.
Did you already talk to the players about this particular problem? I'm just asking because you wrote that "it seems".
If it's a fact that many of the people you play regularly with (say about 2/3) think that attacking causes feelings like "why are you always targeting me? You did it last game already!" and maybe even anger to some extend, then this is an issue of communication. How do people usually react in group group when they are targeted?
Just a reminder from a game I had about two weeks ago: I was playing a Ghalta Stompy deck that's super slow, super casual and really more of an old-school kitchen table deck a kid at the age of 10 would play (I mean, remember those times? Slamming 8/8 everywhere and opening a booster with some big monster? No one really cared about rarity or money value.). Anyway, long story short, on turn 4 I had my first dude out and started attacking on turn 5. I randomly chose someone because I didn't know a single person or deck I was playing against. Well, turned out the guy was quite pissed off by that and no one really wanted to attack him because of this attitude. He won because no one touched his board state properly or attacked him. I thought: "Well, first game - let's see how the second one turns out!"
During the second game I was targeted from the beginning until the end by that exact same player. He took me out on turn 6 or 7, normally I would be fine with that - but this attitude was quite unnecessary and "childish" in some way. His board state was even worse during the second game and again, no one dared to attack him. Next time I will be in such a situation I would talk to the person nicely and try to get a hint why he's doing that.
But still, there's always the possibility that you meet people that simply don't want to talk and get pissy just by touching anything on their board. One has to move on in such a situation ;).
Here are some questions that you can ask yourself:
- why is everyone pissed off after being attacked?
- what does happen if someone executes a game winning combo?
- do you/others enjoy long games?
Some "solutions":
- communication is key when someone is getting pissy
- play a general that doesn't focus directly, let's say Kaervek the Merciless
- you want to attack first but don't know who's going to get hit? Roll a die.
- play a bit more risky
- think ahead what you want to do during your next turn
- ...
Some things that slow the games down:
- tutoring (without shortcuts)
- complicated synergy decks
- not being actively present during a game (with the mind)
- playing to much control and not enough action cards
- durdling
- stax
- too much jank
- ...
Mr Barrin this Cube is on Fire!! - http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/80149
WG Kei Takahashi: Is in Charge Now !? (EDH) WG