Now, if all cards costed a penny each to get, maybe we'd really see how cards are preferenced,
Well, if for absurd, Black Lotus would be legal in the format, still very few people would play it in their decks, but just because the Lotus is crazy expensive and rare, not because it wouldn't go in literally every deck possible if it was cheaper. Some for other cards.
95% seems like a vast overestimation to me. Even the best cards in their colors, I figure *might* make it into 50% of decks in their colors, if that. Now, if all cards costed a penny each to get, maybe we'd really see how cards are preferenced, but otherwise I tend to see people build decks more often along the lines of a certain thing they're trying to do and with much less concern of 'having this particular piece of goodstuff' unless if it explicitly helps them in what they're trying to do.
There are very few decks that don't run Sol Ring as it is included in all of the precons so there is a large supply of them. Also, just about every multicolor deck would run Command Tower for similar reasons.
I think the format needs its share of near-broken and 'unfun' (though I wouldn't call them such) cards. Why? Because they, like everything else, incentivize building decks that are prepared to deal with them. Those cards of the format, in my view, overall promote deeper thought in deck construction and strategy, which results in those decks being more prepared for other similar game states that those power cards might not necessarily produce, but may be reached by other means.
How is this not just 'get good' as opposed to actually discussing and considering the type of play experience a group would like?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Thank you Sheldon for taking time to address this discussion. Commander has always been my preferred format, and I appreciate the effort you have made today to discuss a few of the things on this board.
We all have different commander expectations and experiences. I know I felt a bit blindsided by your article, and I am grateful that you addressed some of my misgivings about what you wrote.
I think the format needs its share of near-broken and 'unfun' (though I wouldn't call them such) cards. Why? Because they, like everything else, incentivize building decks that are prepared to deal with them. Those cards of the format, in my view, overall promote deeper thought in deck construction and strategy, which results in those decks being more prepared for other similar game states that those power cards might not necessarily produce, but may be reached by other means.
How is this not just 'get good' as opposed to actually discussing and considering the type of play experience a group would like?
It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.
It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.
This. There needs to be some level of onus on players to build decks which can interact with the other players at the table, but at the same time the format shouldn't be one where my deck has to sacrifice its flavor and theme because I need to run 30 pieces of removal/counters to stop three other players trying to combo out.
Agreed. There's a minimum level of effort that needs to go into deck building, just as there's a ceiling. Generally it's only the ceiling that gets discussed, simply because the floor is usually self-regulating in that there's not many people out there who like taking a beating. But it is interesting to consider that a high ceiling does generally mean a higher level for the floor, too. And that can get frustrating for someone without an infinite budget, or with a theme to convey.
It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.
This. There needs to be some level of onus on players to build decks which can interact with the other players at the table, but at the same time the format shouldn't be one where my deck has to sacrifice its flavor and theme because I need to run 30 pieces of removal/counters to stop three other players trying to combo out.
And this is one of the reasons I think fast Mana should be banned, that is 1-3 slots that you can now use for flavor that were previously taken by cards that you should be running.
And this is one of the reasons I think fast Mana should be banned, that is 1-3 slots that you can now use for flavor that were previously taken by cards that you should be running.
I must admit that I am a "Ban Sol Ring" convert. The rest of the "fast mana" cards, not so much.
You know what's crazy is I kinda reverted on the sol ring/fast mana debate. I've kinda concluded that banning any amount of fast mana is essentially a buff to green in the format, and I don't think green needs any buffs.
When we banned sol ring as a group what happened was green ran rampant (mostly because our group was not heavy on stuff like mana vault, crypt and grim monolith at the time, I'll admit). Exploration/burgeoning or birds decks became the default go to for any attempt to be fast, and artifact decks were quite a bit weaker without being able to e-tutor/trinket mage for sol rings.
I realize that's a pretty narrow anecdote but it's really easy for EDH to become a green ramp format - just banning crypt and sol ring would probably be enough to make it mostly incorrect to play non-green.
You know what's crazy is I kinda reverted on the sol ring/fast mana debate. I've kinda concluded that banning any amount of fast mana is essentially a buff to green in the format, and I don't think green needs any buffs.
When we banned sol ring as a group what happened was green ran rampant (mostly because our group was not heavy on stuff like mana vault, crypt and grim monolith at the time, I'll admit). Exploration/burgeoning or birds decks became the default go to for any attempt to be fast, and artifact decks were quite a bit weaker without being able to e-tutor/trinket mage for sol rings.
I realize that's a pretty narrow anecdote but it's really easy for EDH to become a green ramp format - just banning crypt and sol ring would probably be enough to make it mostly incorrect to play non-green.
In the first league I was in the person running it largely copied Sheldon's Armada Games league, and had a dookie for a first turn Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault. Eventually he added Burgeoning and Exploration after a few games where I vomited out lands. I discussed this cookie with him and convinced him that it wasn't the boogeyman that it was made out to be, and he removed the dookie. Quite predictably, games weren't instantly ruined, and to date I haven't played in a league that has that dookie.
Agreed. There's a minimum level of effort that needs to go into deck building, just as there's a ceiling. Generally it's only the ceiling that gets discussed, simply because the floor is usually self-regulating in that there's not many people out there who like taking a beating. But it is interesting to consider that a high ceiling does generally mean a higher level for the floor, too. And that can get frustrating for someone without an infinite budget, or with a theme to convey.
Fortunately, answers aren't usually where the Commander decks get expensive. The mana base is consistently expensive across all multicolor decks, and after that, you've got the oddball Legends card here or there with an outsized price, but the meat and potatoes of healthy table interaction shouldn't be a bar of entry for any Commander players. I was messing around with a Junk deck that ran all your favorite "destroy target non-whatever permanent", from Utter End to Bramblecrush - there were at least ten of them, instants and sorceries in the 2-4 mana range, and I don't think I cleared $20.00. That removal core could deal with any board issue, surgically, and for a cheap real world price. Your VIPs in other colors aren't much worse.
It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.
This. There needs to be some level of onus on players to build decks which can interact with the other players at the table, but at the same time the format shouldn't be one where my deck has to sacrifice its flavor and theme because I need to run 30 pieces of removal/counters to stop three other players trying to combo out.
For me, I have problems with cards that force you to run specific types of removal/answers. This format is multi-player, so naturally you are looking at a removal suite to suit that. They aren’t great when 1-for-1’s, but they are superbly efficient when knocking multiple pieces off the board. Now, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pack some single target answers, it’s just you usually consider those when shoring up deck weaknesses, or when meta gaming. Which is why I can’t stand Iona. If you don’t have that specific answer, you’re going to have a bad time. Or worse, you have that answer but it’s locked. Fast mana can fall into this category as well, but that’s just because by the time you answer it, that player has already gained a significant advantage over what resources you spent to get rid of it.
It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.
But one can build competent decks without necessitating the need to deal with broken things, as the poster I was responding too seemed to indicate. Of course you should win 99% of matches like that, but if everyone made decks like his once in a while and smashed them it could be interesting. To clarify I agree with your ideas here, just don't think it actually related to the position I was trying to take.
I appreciate a tuned experience, but disagree with the notion one must be able to deal with broken items or they need to 'get good'.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Do people actually feel a need to put a Sol Ring in every deck?
That seems odd to me, like I understand and have seen and had some very nice starts because of it but it doesn't automatically fill a slot for me anymore however the bigger thing I think about is having a bunch of early game plays generally and Sol Ring is a consideration for one of those slots but not always a guarantee.
There are few decks where Sol Ring is a bad thing. The number isn't zero, but it's fairly low.
Personally, I run it in everything except for my Garza Zol vampire tribal deck, where I leave it out (even though it would be good) for flavor reasons. Classical vampires don't really like the sun. I kept it in my Edgar Markov deck, though. If those new-fangled Ixilan vampires don't have problems with the sun, I figure they can handle Sol Ring, too.
If Sol Ring is a one of a kind effect, I wouldn't bother running it. For me to run Sol Ring, I'd want to be running the whole suite of AAA ramp-rocks. I value a consistant game experience, so I don't run singleton effects in commander unless the effect is my commander. Decks with no real dedication to ramp that just toss in a Sol Ring because it's the rule are worse off for it.
I realize I'm late to the game in discussing this article, but I think that the most important part of his article is when Sheldon admitted that what qualifies as a "fun" Commander game is subjective. He played against Stax and fast Combo during his time at SCG Con and I think that these games were important experiences in helping him (and others of the RC) realize the wonderful diversity of the Commander format. It has evolved into its own, living entity that has spawned offshoots (cEDH and Brawl) that are just as successful as the normal 60 card formats. I personally think that Commander is solely responsible for reinvigorating my interest in the game at all; I was tired of dying to Bitterblossom and Blightning from my brief stint in Standard.
That said, I appreciate (although am nervous) about the role of the Advisory Group will be. One of the people approved to the Committee is a pretty avid cEDH player, so I'm interested to see if the banlist will change. 4 Color cEDH Flash Hulk decks are pretty annoying and commonplace and I for one would love to see some changes to the banlist.
I realize I'm late to the game in discussing this article, but I think that the most important part of his article is when Sheldon admitted that what qualifies as a "fun" Commander game is subjective. He played against Stax and fast Combo during his time at SCG Con and I think that these games were important experiences in helping him (and others of the RC) realize the wonderful diversity of the Commander format.
This really does need to be the only major takeaway from the article. That and the importance of communication pre, mid and post game.
Do people actually feel a need to put a Sol Ring in every deck?
I've put Sol Ring in maybe 2 out of 80+ decks. There are people who cram it into every deck, but I am definitely not one of them.
It can give explosive first and second turns, making you the threat at the table, at which point everyone gangs up on you until a bigger threat emerges. Turn ten, it's a pretty terrible top deck.
I realize I'm late to the game in discussing this article, but I think that the most important part of his article is when Sheldon admitted that what qualifies as a "fun" Commander game is subjective. He played against Stax and fast Combo during his time at SCG Con and I think that these games were important experiences in helping him (and others of the RC) realize the wonderful diversity of the Commander format.
This seems to posit that was not his thinking prior to those games, which is 100% inaccurate. He has always said exactly that: People can have fun in a multitude of ways, to try and make EDH fit them all is a fools errand. This was not some Eureka moment where he now 'gets it'.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Do people actually feel a need to put a Sol Ring in every deck?
I feel that way.
Although I've built a few decks without it, I generally feel compelled to put Sol Ring in every deck. At it's core, Sol Ring is just an effective ramp spell. Virtually every deck wants access to quality ramp, and because most ramp doesn't do anything intrinsically interesting, there's little reason to play other cards over Sol Ring. I mean, sure, I could play with worse ramp spells, but why would I do that? It's just axle grease for the rest of my deck, so I may as well make sure that it's effective at what it does since there isn't any other compelling reason to play it beyond that.
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Looks over at EDHREC, sees Sol Ring is in 80% of decks. Every other rock at 42% or less, lowest ones at 4%. Only cards more played than it are literally the basic lands at 100% or 99% percent usage, except mountain at 97%. Closest non-basic card being Command Tower at 63%. Everything else at 55% or less.
Do people actually feel a need to put a Sol Ring in every deck?
I've put Sol Ring in maybe 2 out of 80+ decks. There are people who cram it into every deck, but I am definitely not one of them.
It can give explosive first and second turns, making you the threat at the table, at which point everyone gangs up on you until a bigger threat emerges. Turn ten, it's a pretty terrible top deck.
Turn ten, many lands are also a pretty terrible topdeck much of the time. That isn't a reason to not play them. Same with low-cost ramp spells in general. Farseek is a great turn 2 play for a lot of decks. Topdecking it on turn 9, not nearly as great, but that doesn't make Farseek a bad card to include in your decks. While Sol Ring's value goes down the longer the game lasts, in my experience it can make a significant difference in more decks than not if it comes down in the first 5-6 turns.
It is true, however, that playing Sol Ring as the only ramp you play in a deck is sort of pointless. Having one ramp card and hoping you draw into it early enough for it to matter is bad deck building. If you are running Sol Ring you should probably also be running other mana rocks and other sorts of ramp spells.
It is true that a T1 Sol Ring can make you the obvious threat on the table. This is even more the case if you can turn that T1 Sol Ring into a Signet or another mana rock. But it's also true that the advantage this can give you can be worth this downside. On Monday, I played a T1 Sol Ring in my Zacama deck. I couldn't play anything else with the colorless mana, but it let me play Skyshroud Claim on T2, which let me play something else, and a bit more ramp on subsequent turns let me get Zacama out on T6. That definitely made me the archenemy, but that was fine, because having a bit of board state created over the previous turns + the removal options Zacama provides let me handle multiple players just fine, and I ended up winning that game despite being the archenemy the whole time.
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Well, if for absurd, Black Lotus would be legal in the format, still very few people would play it in their decks, but just because the Lotus is crazy expensive and rare, not because it wouldn't go in literally every deck possible if it was cheaper. Some for other cards.
There are very few decks that don't run Sol Ring as it is included in all of the precons so there is a large supply of them. Also, just about every multicolor deck would run Command Tower for similar reasons.
We all have different commander expectations and experiences. I know I felt a bit blindsided by your article, and I am grateful that you addressed some of my misgivings about what you wrote.
Looking forward to more dialogue in 2019!
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Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
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It is effectively "get good", but that's not a bad thing. While Commander isn't 100 card Vintage, and players shouldn't be expected to prepare for that as anything resembling a par for the Course commander match, the opposite is also true, and players needn't be expected to have options for the players who resist at all costs any efforts to build functional decks. I have a friend who comes at me with 100 card draft pool leftovers, and it's only right that our match results reflect that.
This. There needs to be some level of onus on players to build decks which can interact with the other players at the table, but at the same time the format shouldn't be one where my deck has to sacrifice its flavor and theme because I need to run 30 pieces of removal/counters to stop three other players trying to combo out.
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And this is one of the reasons I think fast Mana should be banned, that is 1-3 slots that you can now use for flavor that were previously taken by cards that you should be running.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
I must admit that I am a "Ban Sol Ring" convert. The rest of the "fast mana" cards, not so much.
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When we banned sol ring as a group what happened was green ran rampant (mostly because our group was not heavy on stuff like mana vault, crypt and grim monolith at the time, I'll admit). Exploration/burgeoning or birds decks became the default go to for any attempt to be fast, and artifact decks were quite a bit weaker without being able to e-tutor/trinket mage for sol rings.
I realize that's a pretty narrow anecdote but it's really easy for EDH to become a green ramp format - just banning crypt and sol ring would probably be enough to make it mostly incorrect to play non-green.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
In the first league I was in the person running it largely copied Sheldon's Armada Games league, and had a dookie for a first turn Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault. Eventually he added Burgeoning and Exploration after a few games where I vomited out lands. I discussed this cookie with him and convinced him that it wasn't the boogeyman that it was made out to be, and he removed the dookie. Quite predictably, games weren't instantly ruined, and to date I haven't played in a league that has that dookie.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Fortunately, answers aren't usually where the Commander decks get expensive. The mana base is consistently expensive across all multicolor decks, and after that, you've got the oddball Legends card here or there with an outsized price, but the meat and potatoes of healthy table interaction shouldn't be a bar of entry for any Commander players. I was messing around with a Junk deck that ran all your favorite "destroy target non-whatever permanent", from Utter End to Bramblecrush - there were at least ten of them, instants and sorceries in the 2-4 mana range, and I don't think I cleared $20.00. That removal core could deal with any board issue, surgically, and for a cheap real world price. Your VIPs in other colors aren't much worse.
For me, I have problems with cards that force you to run specific types of removal/answers. This format is multi-player, so naturally you are looking at a removal suite to suit that. They aren’t great when 1-for-1’s, but they are superbly efficient when knocking multiple pieces off the board. Now, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pack some single target answers, it’s just you usually consider those when shoring up deck weaknesses, or when meta gaming. Which is why I can’t stand Iona. If you don’t have that specific answer, you’re going to have a bad time. Or worse, you have that answer but it’s locked. Fast mana can fall into this category as well, but that’s just because by the time you answer it, that player has already gained a significant advantage over what resources you spent to get rid of it.
I appreciate a tuned experience, but disagree with the notion one must be able to deal with broken items or they need to 'get good'.
That seems odd to me, like I understand and have seen and had some very nice starts because of it but it doesn't automatically fill a slot for me anymore however the bigger thing I think about is having a bunch of early game plays generally and Sol Ring is a consideration for one of those slots but not always a guarantee.
Personally, I run it in everything except for my Garza Zol vampire tribal deck, where I leave it out (even though it would be good) for flavor reasons. Classical vampires don't really like the sun. I kept it in my Edgar Markov deck, though. If those new-fangled Ixilan vampires don't have problems with the sun, I figure they can handle Sol Ring, too.
That said, I appreciate (although am nervous) about the role of the Advisory Group will be. One of the people approved to the Committee is a pretty avid cEDH player, so I'm interested to see if the banlist will change. 4 Color cEDH Flash Hulk decks are pretty annoying and commonplace and I for one would love to see some changes to the banlist.
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WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
This really does need to be the only major takeaway from the article. That and the importance of communication pre, mid and post game.
It can give explosive first and second turns, making you the threat at the table, at which point everyone gangs up on you until a bigger threat emerges. Turn ten, it's a pretty terrible top deck.
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Although I've built a few decks without it, I generally feel compelled to put Sol Ring in every deck. At it's core, Sol Ring is just an effective ramp spell. Virtually every deck wants access to quality ramp, and because most ramp doesn't do anything intrinsically interesting, there's little reason to play other cards over Sol Ring. I mean, sure, I could play with worse ramp spells, but why would I do that? It's just axle grease for the rest of my deck, so I may as well make sure that it's effective at what it does since there isn't any other compelling reason to play it beyond that.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Turn ten, many lands are also a pretty terrible topdeck much of the time. That isn't a reason to not play them. Same with low-cost ramp spells in general. Farseek is a great turn 2 play for a lot of decks. Topdecking it on turn 9, not nearly as great, but that doesn't make Farseek a bad card to include in your decks. While Sol Ring's value goes down the longer the game lasts, in my experience it can make a significant difference in more decks than not if it comes down in the first 5-6 turns.
It is true, however, that playing Sol Ring as the only ramp you play in a deck is sort of pointless. Having one ramp card and hoping you draw into it early enough for it to matter is bad deck building. If you are running Sol Ring you should probably also be running other mana rocks and other sorts of ramp spells.
It is true that a T1 Sol Ring can make you the obvious threat on the table. This is even more the case if you can turn that T1 Sol Ring into a Signet or another mana rock. But it's also true that the advantage this can give you can be worth this downside. On Monday, I played a T1 Sol Ring in my Zacama deck. I couldn't play anything else with the colorless mana, but it let me play Skyshroud Claim on T2, which let me play something else, and a bit more ramp on subsequent turns let me get Zacama out on T6. That definitely made me the archenemy, but that was fine, because having a bit of board state created over the previous turns + the removal options Zacama provides let me handle multiple players just fine, and I ended up winning that game despite being the archenemy the whole time.