I play with a specific group regularly. I think we are all good players, we all play with similar goals in mind, and we generally have fun and interactive games. We're a happy group on the whole. But one of the players in my group uses Thawing Glaciers in a good number of his decks, and it's driving me nuts.
He's a good player. He builds good decks. And Thawing Glaciers, in those decks, is a good addition. My issue is that it slows down our games by a considerable amount. He is constantly shuffling, and we're constantly waiting for him to take his turn and finish using the glaciers.
I'm just curious what other peoples' experiences have been with this card. I won't deny its power, but does anyone avoid playing it due to the added shuffling? Has anyone else had a similar experience to me, and dreads playing against the card? Or am I alone in my distaste for the card?
Not particularly worse than any other fetch really. Generally we just let them search and say what they are finding then while they are shuffling and such move on to the next turn. Since it's a tapped basic land it generally doesn't impact the game much.
Super smex with Deveri as your commander, or some other untap sheanigans. It's otherwise fine.
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It's a fine card, probably underplayed in the format. I don't see why it would slow down the game any worse than any number of other cards, including any sort of tutor or things like the Top.
Not particularly worse than any other fetch really. Generally we just let them search and say what they are finding then while they are shuffling and such move on to the next turn. Since it's a tapped basic land it generally doesn't impact the game much.
It's a fine card, probably underplayed in the format. I don't see why it would slow down the game any worse than any number of other cards, including any sort of tutor or things like the Top.
I agree that it's similar to a fetch or a tutor; however, this is every turn. Repeatable. Guarantees that slow down every single turn.
But as it stands, absolutely fantastic card. I tore apart my Vig deck because I hated shuffling! I'd try to just do that at the ends of turns and let other people go, but it is still just a drag on the game. Again, ban all tutors, and then your solution is found!
Not particularly worse than any other fetch really. Generally we just let them search and say what they are finding then while they are shuffling and such move on to the next turn. Since it's a tapped basic land it generally doesn't impact the game much.
It's a fine card, probably underplayed in the format. I don't see why it would slow down the game any worse than any number of other cards, including any sort of tutor or things like the Top.
I agree that it's similar to a fetch or a tutor; however, this is every turn. Repeatable. Guarantees that slow down every single turn.
How is he doing it every turn? Comes into play tapped.
So, its more of a question if your opponent is playing a lot of responsive decks where he is keeping up other responses and using that card if he has surplus mana. I have it in some decks where I know I will be using it ahead of time as I play it in a few decks where I need more card advantage such as mono white / mono red.
My suggestion is generally to pop it ahead of time so once you are done with your turn pass turn and pop it. There is always the option too of preping it and finding that land in case you are using it and if suddenly things change and you need that mana you shuffle it away (assuming you don't have topdeck manipulation the top of your deck is unknown in both cases it shouldn't be any advantage to you).
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Great card in the right place. We all know that. I’d love a copy for Bruna.
It seems like this is more the player than the card though. I’ve been that guy before and I’ve seen that guy before - when I played Wild Pair in my Nissa build the shuffle wait was real. And I’ve played against Zur before, too. Now that’s annoying. You all know he’s either going for Vanishing or Necropotence and he/she still takes forever to make a choice. I played against Yidris cascade last night, and ended up conceding because the game took like an hour longer than it should’ve.
The polite thing to do is:
- if you’re tutoring mid-turn, make it quick, no ifs or buts - failing that, if you don't need to interact with your library again that turn, find what you want, carry on, pass turn and shuffle while everone else plays out.
- ideally, save your tutoring for EOT, pass turn while you shuffle, and clearly and openly reveal if required. With ramp this is a no brainer really.
I love Thawing Glaciers. It's a card-advantage machine. I can see how it might slow down a game, but note that it is only every other turn without shenanigans. It doesn't seem any worse to me than all of the search effects in the format.
It's an old, old trick. Back in the day, we used Ley Druid. (And back then, you could Paralyze your Ley Druid and use four Wild Growths to go infinite. That doesn't work today, but Freed from the Real does.)
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It is also very good with the Ravnica bounce lands. Regarding the OP, I think you just need to make some house rule kind of thing that says that you can fetch early and then go back and change your mind if it is relevant. That way you wont have to wait (assuming there are enough players that he do not use more time than the number of players.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
You can't play the card every turn because it returns to your hand during the cleanup step.
EDIT: Also, am I missing something here? This card looks absolutely terrible to me.
It's slow AF, but if you're in a group where games go long you get so much mileage out of it. Even more if you can find synergies with it, like for example activating it, then playing a bounceland, or casting Frantic Search.
As someone that uses it, when you do the math on it (yay, my favorite part!) it's about +0.75 lands/2 turns. Which sounds bad, but is mitigated by needing no additional resources to pull this CA out. This is the absolute floor value of the card however, and there are a number of tools to go turbo-glaciers though (Stone-Seeder Hierophant and/or Amulet of Vigor being the most efficient way).
I digress. Sorry, I like doing the numbers. Anyway as far as "time" this isn't any worse off that enabling cruci-fetch (Crucible of Worlds + fetchlands). And I'm someone that shuffles every turn between tutours, fetches, recruiters, it's really not an issue. My advice would be just...chillax. This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon, we're not on a chess clock here, so stop pressuring people to hurry up. Let the person enjoy the labor they've put into their deck building, the same respect you'd like to be afforded too.
I used to use Thawing Glaciers in a lot of my early decks, but I found that EDH is just not the kind of format where you have all the time in the world to ride a Glaciers to grind out incremental card advantage while tying up resources that would otherwise be used to develop your board. As someone who played with Thawing Glaciers when it dominated Type II (now known as Standard) and can attest to how powerful it used to be, I can honestly say that I think that the Magic universe has passed Glaciers by and left it behind.
Me, waiting for Thawing Glaciers to be worthwhile.
If you can abuse it to get multiple lands per activation it's solid, but otherwise it's a dumpster fire on a hot, summer afternoon. Incremental ramp stops being effective in my experience around turn 6 or so. After that, you want to be pooping out Gilded Lotus, Crypt Ghast, etc to ramp into your expensive bombs.
As for your predicament, consider getting a 30 second hourglass. It shouldn't take someone that long to search up a basic or two.
I’ve seen thawing glaciers used to great effect because of its ‘return to hand at the end of turn’ clause (if you can reliably untap it mid-turn, it can ramp multiple lands before it bounces).
I don’t think it’s all that bad. Sure it can be a pain to wait, but as long as the group is willing to do shortcuts like ‘I’m tutoring for a island, you go on ahead’, that’s all good, right?
I mean the thing is that it's normally once per every other turn, and you're doing it on other players turns most of the time. So it's just so easy to setup shortcuts.
Like just say "I'm going to to use it unless I need the mana to interact or somebody does a discard effect, etc."
Then while it's other people turns, you search your library for a basic land that you think you need, set it aside, and then you can just flip it over and return the Thawing Glaciers before your turn and nobody should have to be waiting at all.
If for any reason you'd end up not wanting to use it, then you can just stick the basic land back into the deck you set aside and do a quick shuffle again.
Of course you can't do this sort of thing if knowledge of the order of cards in your library is a large factor. If you have been using a Sensei's Divining Top or Sylvan Library for example, then you can just put the top three cards aside and search through the rest.
If you've been scrying to the bottom, as long as it's not effecting the game that much, then your bound to shuffle your library before that becomes a factor, so nobody should care. It's about being realistic about speeding up the game and just trusting in the people you are playing with.
But it sounds like he has configured the deck to use it multiple times in his own turn? You should still be able figure out how many times you can use it and search for the basics all at once.
I mean when we use fetch lands, we normally just first decide exactly which one it's going to be, announce what it's going to be and cast spells announcing that you are going to tap it for mana, then pass the turn. Then you search for it, so that people are not waiting for you.
At the end of the day, it's just going to be a big difference between how slick your play group is at making shortcuts, and everybody understanding what these are and agreeing to them.
Because we are often playing decks that we didn't create, we are allowed to look through the decks at any stage, but mainly do this during other peoples turns. If you have ANY type of tutoring effect that you might want to cast, then it's OK to search through the deck, and potentially set aside some cards while it's not during resolving anything to do with you specifically.
For example say if you've got a Vampiric Tutor in hand, and you may or may not cast it, but it's fine to search through the deck and put some cards aside that you might potentially want to speed things up while other people are playing their turns. Sure it gives away that you've probably got some tutoring effect, but most of the time people are not paying attention to you putting a card or cards aside. Then you can just cast the tutor and flip the card over. If you end up not wanting to cast the card then just shuffle the card(s) you put aside back in.
It's soooo much better than waiting 5 minutes for somebody to search through their library, and takes the pressure off the player who is doing it as well. Trying to figure out cards to get while people are waiting can be stressful.
Sure it doesn't always work out this way, you have to search on the fly as this can only happen while it's your priority, or you might be literally searching to respond to the stack, or you might just prefer to have as much knowledge about the game state before you search, but the idea is to make as many shortcuts for your playgroup when you can.
Thanks for all the responses. Yes, he has ways to use it multiple times. I have no problem waiting, and I do wait patiently; however, I was just wondering if others get annoyed by the waiting that this card can make. And I agree, it is very similar to people using Crucible of Worlds and multiple fetchlands, or lots of tutors, or a commander that tutors often. It's not something I'll be rude to him about, but it's definitely something that goes into my deck building thoughts.
I've played against the card, and while it is not worse than other interactions that you just mentioned, it is time consuming. It's good practice to have general nonbasic land hosing in your deck in EDH and sometimes you should simply go after a card that is either efficient for your opponent OR annoying logistically, to say nothing of both.
Or, of course, since you seem to have an agreeable playgroup, shortcuts are a solution to many things that are annoying in Magic. joeyb11223 mentioned what sounds like could be a good shortcut for all land ramp.
I play with a specific group regularly. I think we are all good players, we all play with similar goals in mind, and we generally have fun and interactive games. We're a happy group on the whole. But one of the players in my group uses Thawing Glaciers in a good number of his decks, and it's driving me nuts.
He's a good player. He builds good decks. And Thawing Glaciers, in those decks, is a good addition. My issue is that it slows down our games by a considerable amount. He is constantly shuffling, and we're constantly waiting for him to take his turn and finish using the glaciers.
I'm just curious what other peoples' experiences have been with this card. I won't deny its power, but does anyone avoid playing it due to the added shuffling? Has anyone else had a similar experience to me, and dreads playing against the card? Or am I alone in my distaste for the card?
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I agree that it's similar to a fetch or a tutor; however, this is every turn. Repeatable. Guarantees that slow down every single turn.
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Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsBut as it stands, absolutely fantastic card. I tore apart my Vig deck because I hated shuffling! I'd try to just do that at the ends of turns and let other people go, but it is still just a drag on the game. Again, ban all tutors, and then your solution is found!
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How is he doing it every turn? Comes into play tapped.
My suggestion is generally to pop it ahead of time so once you are done with your turn pass turn and pop it. There is always the option too of preping it and finding that land in case you are using it and if suddenly things change and you need that mana you shuffle it away (assuming you don't have topdeck manipulation the top of your deck is unknown in both cases it shouldn't be any advantage to you).
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EDIT: Also, am I missing something here? This card looks absolutely terrible to me.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
It seems like this is more the player than the card though. I’ve been that guy before and I’ve seen that guy before - when I played Wild Pair in my Nissa build the shuffle wait was real. And I’ve played against Zur before, too. Now that’s annoying. You all know he’s either going for Vanishing or Necropotence and he/she still takes forever to make a choice. I played against Yidris cascade last night, and ended up conceding because the game took like an hour longer than it should’ve.
The polite thing to do is:
- if you’re tutoring mid-turn, make it quick, no ifs or buts - failing that, if you don't need to interact with your library again that turn, find what you want, carry on, pass turn and shuffle while everone else plays out.
- ideally, save your tutoring for EOT, pass turn while you shuffle, and clearly and openly reveal if required. With ramp this is a no brainer really.
Amulet of Vigor. Voyaging Satyr. Garruk Wildspeaker. And of course, like any fetch, Rings of Brighthearth.
It's an old, old trick. Back in the day, we used Ley Druid. (And back then, you could Paralyze your Ley Druid and use four Wild Growths to go infinite. That doesn't work today, but Freed from the Real does.)
Yes, it's another case of Wizards being all
On phasing:
It's slow AF, but if you're in a group where games go long you get so much mileage out of it. Even more if you can find synergies with it, like for example activating it, then playing a bounceland, or casting Frantic Search.
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I digress. Sorry, I like doing the numbers. Anyway as far as "time" this isn't any worse off that enabling cruci-fetch (Crucible of Worlds + fetchlands). And I'm someone that shuffles every turn between tutours, fetches, recruiters, it's really not an issue. My advice would be just...chillax. This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon, we're not on a chess clock here, so stop pressuring people to hurry up. Let the person enjoy the labor they've put into their deck building, the same respect you'd like to be afforded too.
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I do avoid building a Karametra deck for this reason - I built one and tested it a few times and it was absolutely miserable.
When I play Land Tax in Ephara I will regularly tutor up ahead of time and just reshuffle if needed, and encourage others to do the same.
You can ask him to speed it up. Do it early, definitely do multiple activations simultaneously, etc.
But it really is great for some decks that want to play long games.
I think generally speaking it's not a card that should be in every deck and if it is i could see it getting to be a drag.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Thawing Glaciers + Burgeoning + Amulet of Vigor.
It still took me 5 mins to get 16 lands into play, but yeah auto shuffler and alphabetical card selection makes playing a pleasure.
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Me, waiting for Thawing Glaciers to be worthwhile.
If you can abuse it to get multiple lands per activation it's solid, but otherwise it's a dumpster fire on a hot, summer afternoon. Incremental ramp stops being effective in my experience around turn 6 or so. After that, you want to be pooping out Gilded Lotus, Crypt Ghast, etc to ramp into your expensive bombs.
As for your predicament, consider getting a 30 second hourglass. It shouldn't take someone that long to search up a basic or two.
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I don’t think it’s all that bad. Sure it can be a pain to wait, but as long as the group is willing to do shortcuts like ‘I’m tutoring for a island, you go on ahead’, that’s all good, right?
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Like just say "I'm going to to use it unless I need the mana to interact or somebody does a discard effect, etc."
Then while it's other people turns, you search your library for a basic land that you think you need, set it aside, and then you can just flip it over and return the Thawing Glaciers before your turn and nobody should have to be waiting at all.
If for any reason you'd end up not wanting to use it, then you can just stick the basic land back into the deck you set aside and do a quick shuffle again.
Of course you can't do this sort of thing if knowledge of the order of cards in your library is a large factor. If you have been using a Sensei's Divining Top or Sylvan Library for example, then you can just put the top three cards aside and search through the rest.
If you've been scrying to the bottom, as long as it's not effecting the game that much, then your bound to shuffle your library before that becomes a factor, so nobody should care. It's about being realistic about speeding up the game and just trusting in the people you are playing with.
But it sounds like he has configured the deck to use it multiple times in his own turn? You should still be able figure out how many times you can use it and search for the basics all at once.
I mean when we use fetch lands, we normally just first decide exactly which one it's going to be, announce what it's going to be and cast spells announcing that you are going to tap it for mana, then pass the turn. Then you search for it, so that people are not waiting for you.
At the end of the day, it's just going to be a big difference between how slick your play group is at making shortcuts, and everybody understanding what these are and agreeing to them.
Because we are often playing decks that we didn't create, we are allowed to look through the decks at any stage, but mainly do this during other peoples turns. If you have ANY type of tutoring effect that you might want to cast, then it's OK to search through the deck, and potentially set aside some cards while it's not during resolving anything to do with you specifically.
For example say if you've got a Vampiric Tutor in hand, and you may or may not cast it, but it's fine to search through the deck and put some cards aside that you might potentially want to speed things up while other people are playing their turns. Sure it gives away that you've probably got some tutoring effect, but most of the time people are not paying attention to you putting a card or cards aside. Then you can just cast the tutor and flip the card over. If you end up not wanting to cast the card then just shuffle the card(s) you put aside back in.
It's soooo much better than waiting 5 minutes for somebody to search through their library, and takes the pressure off the player who is doing it as well. Trying to figure out cards to get while people are waiting can be stressful.
Sure it doesn't always work out this way, you have to search on the fly as this can only happen while it's your priority, or you might be literally searching to respond to the stack, or you might just prefer to have as much knowledge about the game state before you search, but the idea is to make as many shortcuts for your playgroup when you can.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsOr, of course, since you seem to have an agreeable playgroup, shortcuts are a solution to many things that are annoying in Magic. joeyb11223 mentioned what sounds like could be a good shortcut for all land ramp.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝