I don't think there are enough angels at different points on the curve to support angel tribal but if you were absolutely going to I think I would try Atraxa.
Of your list I like Shalai the best. GW is a playable color combo for Angels since it gets you some ramp at least. RW is just unplayable for slamming 5-6 drops imho.
[*]Its hard to build her with a single tribe focus. Each tribe tends to have its strong cards that they add but when you break down a Kaalia deck you are probably talking about 15-30ish creatures that probably fall into those three tribes. When you get past the fifth best card of each creature type its hard to start adding the less good cards of that tribe instead of the other tribes.
[/list]
Kaalia is a goldfish aggro deck that builds itself. That is my issue with the commander. Its not good if it gets disrupted and slowed down and if you can come back from that its probably because you tend to blow up the lands. These are not things I enjoy about this game. I honestly don't even think that its that good because everyone at the table if they are holding spot removal should be (and usually is) thinking about just throwing it in your face on your first cast. I don't have a problem with if someone wants to play the commander, but its not a deck with very good long game potential if you ask me.
*Looks to sig* no, you actually can build to one of the three types. And there's a second type coming soon-ish, I need time to compose those thoughts.
Lastly, your characterization of Kaalia being an aggro deck is wrong. This is a common misconception though so I won't hold it against you. Kaalia is actually a combo deck that pretends to be an aggro deck. Your "combo" here is setting up a board state where you can attack safely, and repeatedly, with your fragile 4cmc flyer.
List tags are malformed.
*Looks to sig* no, you actually can build to one of the three types. And there's a second type coming soon-ish, I need time to compose those thoughts.
Lastly, your characterization of Kaalia being an aggro deck is wrong. This is a common misconception though so I won't hold it against you. Kaalia is actually a combo deck that pretends to be an aggro deck. Your "combo" here is setting up a board state where you can attack safely, and repeatedly, with your fragile 4cmc flyer.
Its a goldfish deck. It can be classified as aggro or combo, its probably some of both. I still think she is overall fragile and predictable. It can't fight all that well against opposing combo decks as the colors she is in leaves you with some odd tools for that. I just think it gets outclassed by other players running the same level of tactics (totally my own personal opinion not stating any sort of fact here). Kaalia should make you strong vs counter magic but instead its likely they just counter your commander.
My issue is mostly that the level of degeneracy that you need to stoop to to make Kaalia good seems questionable given that if you face the same level of degenerate effects I don't think she is that good. Again, this is my own personal opinions and not some level of fact.
Also, if you are aiming this at 1v1 discussion I have no experience to argue there one way or another. I am basing mine on multiplayer. I am only saying this because I know you do some 1v1.
For what it's worth, I think there's ways of making Kaalia of the Vast work, but they seem like either fragile plans or drastic measures.
I've only ever played against her, never built, so can't speak from experience. My experience playing against her tells me that the staxy MLD builds have obliterated her reputation, though (I couldn't help that pun). She either gets targeted out of the game or makes it an unpleasant experience (unless, of course, you're alright with MLD - some are, I don't care, but I do prefer to know it's a possibility prior to picking a deck). I would love to have my mind changed - she's not an uninteresting commander, I just think she requires too much protection for my tastes. Totally my opinion, I am open to being proved incorrect.
Yea, she reminds me of Rafiq of the Many but designed in such a way where everyone has a reason to want to kill your commander before you see where its going. She is incredibly fragile to spot removal and gives your opponents reasons to keep you off of attacking. She is a glass cannon aggro / combo / LD style of deck through and through. Either just you get to play or you don't get to play has been my experience with Kaalia.
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@ISBPathfinder With running mono-white how do you deal with ramp outside of artifacts (I've shied away from artifact ramp lately because of all the artifact hate that people incorporated after C2018).
Here are some ways that white can ramp which doesn’t leave you vulnerable to artifact removal.
@ISBPathfinder With running mono-white how do you deal with ramp outside of artifacts (I've shied away from artifact ramp lately because of all the artifact hate that people incorporated after C2018).
Here are some ways that white can ramp which doesn’t leave you vulnerable to artifact removal.
I've either tried most of these in my build or run them present. There are some rocks in the deck, but at least a reasonable degree of the ramp options are not artifact mana. Gift of Estates is surprisingly good, Sword of the Animist less unpredictably so, Dowsing Dagger is great, and Azor's Gateway does draw/filter and big mana if you can flip it. Weathered Wayfarer is as good as its reputation, Isolated Watchtower has its moments.
Between that and solid draw options, the deck does really well.
Its a goldfish deck. It can be classified as aggro or combo, its probably some of both. I still think she is overall fragile and predictable. It can't fight all that well against opposing combo decks as the colors she is in leaves you with some odd tools for that. I just think it gets outclassed by other players running the same level of tactics (totally my own personal opinion not stating any sort of fact here). Kaalia should make you strong vs counter magic but instead its likely they just counter your commander.
My issue is mostly that the level of degeneracy that you need to stoop to to make Kaalia good seems questionable given that if you face the same level of degenerate effects I don't think she is that good. Again, this is my own personal opinions and not some level of fact.
Also, if you are aiming this at 1v1 discussion I have no experience to argue there one way or another. I am basing mine on multiplayer. I am only saying this because I know you do some 1v1.
It's not aggro. You can't aggro in commander because of multiple players and increased life totals, so get that notion out of your head. Aggro doesn't exist in commander. Full stop. The trifecta of archetypes is combo < control < ramp (which really is a specialized term for "midrange"). So, we're a combo deck that struggles at fighting other combo decks. Yes, this is as true of any deck without countermagic that is fighting against something that wins in one key turn. This is nothing new.
The issue you seem to be projecting here is all the builds of Kaalia you have witnessed do the same linear game plan, and likely lack the finesse that goes into proper tuning to make the deck do what the deck does best. Indeed, just about 80% of all first draft lists will boast some 30+ high end (6+ cmc) angels, demons, and dragons that don't actually win the game that really show their struggle when smart players take out the cheat mechanism as they should. So, yes, I can understand why your own view of the deck is as such. As well, I can understand that you prefer not to play it since many optimal lists (mine included) plays more like mass land destruction tribal than anything, often boasting of six or more land wipes in the deck at a time. Here's where the situation changes though;
A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. What? Let's say that one more time for the folks in the back. A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. If you build around one central plan, and that plan is easily contested, yes, you are going to appear to others as you having a bad deck. And, yes, most decks are built in such a way to as to be ignorant to this truth because they want to live the dream or they believe their plan is a hundred feet tall and bulletproof. What those players, and the average Kaalia resource doesn't take into account is, Kaalia is the gateway to the strategy, but she is not the only strategy. So you spent two premium removal spells on my 2/2. Okay, cool, great. Here's this Sneak Attack that lets me do the same thing. Or this Reanimate/Through the Breach. Quicksilver Amulet is still a card that exists, even if it's been kinda halfway replaced by Planar Bridge. Cheating cards out for far less than their retail pricepoint is a time-honoured tradition in Magic from the living death decks of old, to the more modernized birthing pod decks of today. That's what you're really doing, you're cheating pricepoints and utilizing the great wealth of tutours you have to clock your opponent in a ferociously fast manner (you even have a legitimate one-shot KO punch at your disposal!) None of these strats are strats I'd consider douchebaggery or exceedingly offensive to the senses such as resource denial seems to do to you.
And then, even if resource denial was the only way to build the deck, why is that even a problem in a format where people can and will kill you on t2? This is a flash-hulk format, a cephalid breakfast format, an AEtherflux Reservoir format, an ANT/Unlife format..........but you're getting rustled over the person who wants to have fun with their discounted, iconic creature types? And for the record I've won games where I never resolved my Ravages of War. So...is this really an issue you have with the commander's lack of playability appeal, or is it maybe sitting across from an inexperienced or struggling pilot that may have a suboptimal list that is overwhelmed by the wealth of information out there and doesn't know where to start building? If it's the latter...shouldn't you as a responsible player, offer some kind of help even if it's a proper forum link to go seek advice further? Hell, you're a mod you were at one point a moderator on a forum with direct access to one of if not THE largest resources on the net for this particular deck.
I mean, unless you rather just pubstomp the poor individual. I know that's not your style...right? Wouldn't this be far more constructive to the conversation at-large than a mere summary dismissal of the archetype and commander in question?
It's not aggro. You can't aggro in commander because of multiple players and increased life totals, so get that notion out of your head. Aggro doesn't exist in commander. Full stop. The trifecta of archetypes is combo < control < ramp (which really is a specialized term for "midrange"). So, we're a combo deck that struggles at fighting other combo decks. Yes, this is as true of any deck without countermagic that is fighting against something that wins in one key turn. This is nothing new.
The issue you seem to be projecting here is all the builds of Kaalia you have witnessed do the same linear game plan, and likely lack the finesse that goes into proper tuning to make the deck do what the deck does best. Indeed, just about 80% of all first draft lists will boast some 30+ high end (6+ cmc) angels, demons, and dragons that don't actually win the game that really show their struggle when smart players take out the cheat mechanism as they should. So, yes, I can understand why your own view of the deck is as such. As well, I can understand that you prefer not to play it since many optimal lists (mine included) plays more like mass land destruction tribal than anything, often boasting of six or more land wipes in the deck at a time. Here's where the situation changes though;
A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. What? Let's say that one more time for the folks in the back. A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. If you build around one central plan, and that plan is easily contested, yes, you are going to appear to others as you having a bad deck. And, yes, most decks are built in such a way to as to be ignorant to this truth because they want to live the dream or they believe their plan is a hundred feet tall and bulletproof. What those players, and the average Kaalia resource doesn't take into account is, Kaalia is the gateway to the strategy, but she is not the only strategy. So you spent two premium removal spells on my 2/2. Okay, cool, great. Here's this Sneak Attack that lets me do the same thing. Or this Reanimate/Through the Breach. Quicksilver Amulet is still a card that exists, even if it's been kinda halfway replaced by Planar Bridge. Cheating cards out for far less than their retail pricepoint is a time-honoured tradition in Magic from the living death decks of old, to the more modernized birthing pod decks of today. That's what you're really doing, you're cheating pricepoints and utilizing the great wealth of tutours you have to clock your opponent in a ferociously fast manner (you even have a legitimate one-shot KO punch at your disposal!) None of these strats are strats I'd consider douchebaggery or exceedingly offensive to the senses such as resource denial seems to do to you.
And then, even if resource denial was the only way to build the deck, why is that even a problem in a format where people can and will kill you on t2? This is a flash-hulk format, a cephalid breakfast format, an AEtherflux Reservoir format, an ANT/Unlife format..........but you're getting rustled over the person who wants to have fun with their discounted, iconic creature types? And for the record I've won games where I never resolved my Ravages of War. So...is this really an issue you have with the commander's lack of playability appeal, or is it maybe sitting across from an inexperienced or struggling pilot that may have a suboptimal list that is overwhelmed by the wealth of information out there and doesn't know where to start building? If it's the latter...shouldn't you as a responsible player, offer some kind of help even if it's a proper forum link to go seek advice further? Hell, you're a mod you were at one point a moderator on a forum with direct access to one of if not THE largest resources on the net for this particular deck.
I mean, unless you rather just pubstomp the poor individual. I know that's not your style...right? Wouldn't this be far more constructive to the conversation at-large than a mere summary dismissal of the archetype and commander in question?
I am not trying to fight with you about the viability of Kaalia. I don't play 1v1 commander or combo / MLD tactics as what I play with or against so it really isn't something that is in the scope of my own experience. My take away though is primarily that you are justifying that the viable way to build Kaalia is in a way that I refuse to play. I guess my question is at what level of play do you start comparing how viable commanders are against each other. I am not here right now to say she is more or less viable than something else but for example if I were playing to a level of competitive where I wasn't holding back I would perhaps ask myself why play Kaalia MLD over Uril MLD. I have no idea which one is better in a competitive setting but if I am not holding back on my builds I feel like that is a fast track to asking what is the best and playing that rather than having fun building something less than optimal. I am here talking about mono white tribal commanders after all (about as far from CEDH as I can get).
Aggro - I think aggro totally can work in commander. If you are playing combo / LD tactics in your meta its a lot less likely to be viable but I play aggro / voltron / tokens all the time in commander. Generally speaking it relies on having a very low curve and a high draw component but I would consider my Edgar vampires to be an aggro deck. I also have a few others like my abzan Tymna deck, Gisela voltron, and Ghalta decks to be aggro. I am not saying that any of these are optimal but generally speaking I think aggro can be done as long as you are not asking yourself how to maximize your chances of winning games. I would still say that I have a very respectable win percentage with these decks though but again I am not playing against fast combo win decks most of the time.
Linear - I guess my answer is more that I guessed what 80+% of your list was before opening it. Kaalia is very builds herself in that most of the on tribe creatures are very predictable. She costs 4 mana so most people build with 0-2 mana stones to ramp into her faster and or to give her haste when she does land. I have seen a few Kaalia decks against me and I feel with fairly good certainty that I know mostly what I am going to see every game I encounter her. This isn't to say that other commanders aren't like this or that this is a bad thing but I personally really like the deckbuilding aspects of commander and I feel like she is more predictable and or solved than many commanders. Its not a bad thing I think it more means that the difficulty floor in building and playing her tends to be a bit lower. That isn't to say that the ceiling on play / building isn't there.
My issue with Kaalia is that she is a commander that gives me reasons to not let my opponent play the game with if I have options to interact with it. The reason for this is 100% based on being in the blind on what is coming into play. I can't even wait to see where she is going before wanting or needing to answer her. I really can't even come up with a constructive criticism of how to help another player play it better because my entire issue with her is that as soon as she is revealed, everyone else at the table has reasons to mulligan into answers and stop her from being relevant in said game. I don't like cold shutting players down but there are a number of commanders out there that give incentive to stop them cold before you see what they are going to do. I really could highlight a LOT of commanders that fall into this category but Kaalia is sort of unique in that she falls off in her value after her first 1-2 casts where others might retain their value over time.
I don't know what me having been a mod has to do with this. In general I don't like goldfish commanders and I do feel that Kaalia falls into that category of commander. This is my own personal opinion. If that is something that others are interested in they are more than welcome to explore that avenue. I am not trying to demean the commander or those who play it I just think its valid to point out that she is kind of a glass cannon goldfish kind of commander. There is nothing wrong with that, its not my thing but I think its valid to point out that is kind of how its played.
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It's not aggro. You can't aggro in commander because of multiple players and increased life totals, so get that notion out of your head. Aggro doesn't exist in commander. Full stop. The trifecta of archetypes is combo < control < ramp (which really is a specialized term for "midrange"). So, we're a combo deck that struggles at fighting other combo decks. Yes, this is as true of any deck without countermagic that is fighting against something that wins in one key turn. This is nothing new.
You can aggro in commander. I run Edgar Markov myself, and with a super low curve he's 100% aggro, and he's hard to beat unless you carry really early answers. There's plenty of other builds I'd consider aggro, too; Xenagos, God of Revels is pure aggro. Animar can do it, OG Kozilek can do it, Marchesa, the Black Rose and Grenzo, Dungeon Warden can do it. They may be easy beats for a well tuned competitive deck, but they hold their own - I've played against all of them and they all do well on a good day.
The issue you seem to be projecting here is all the builds of Kaalia you have witnessed do the same linear game plan...snip...None of these strats are strats I'd consider douchebaggery or exceedingly offensive to the senses such as resource denial seems to do to you.
The issue of linear building is an issue with the builder, not the deck. Most of the time, anyway. There's a ton of commanders out there that are 'solved', and I tend to stay away from them personally. I've had more fun building Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Glissa, the Traitor, scratching my head the whole way along, than I'd get from building, say Meren or Kaalia. That being said, this is the format for being creative and showing your character. The point of 'douchebaggery' is really moot; it's 100% entirely meta dependent. I don't mind going up against MLD if I know beforehand, and I think most people are the same. I have a couple of decks that can work around it. But if you're sneaking it up on me, I absolutely have an issue with it; you're essentially saying 'I'm gonna play this one solitaire, guys'. If you're sneaking it up on people though, there's an element of unfriendliness there. It's not the easiest thing to plan around, and unless you're running Crucible, blue control, or taking Kaalia out early, you're screwed out of 2-3 hours of your time. Which, for me, is a valuable commodity, and I have no qualms being pissed at someone who screws me around like that.
And then, even if resource denial was the only way to build the deck, why is that even a problem in a format where people can and will kill you on t2? This is a flash-hulk format, a cephalid breakfast format, an AEtherflux Reservoir format, an ANT/Unlife format..........but you're getting rustled over the person who wants to have fun with their discounted, iconic creature types? And for the record I've won games where I never resolved my Ravages of War. So...is this really an issue you have with the commander's lack of playability appeal, or is it maybe sitting across from an inexperienced or struggling pilot that may have a suboptimal list that is overwhelmed by the wealth of information out there and doesn't know where to start building? If it's the latter...shouldn't you as a responsible player, offer some kind of help even if it's a proper forum link to go seek advice further? Hell, you're a mod you were at one point a moderator on a forum with direct access to one of if not THE largest resources on the net for this particular deck.
I mean, unless you rather just pubstomp the poor individual. I know that's not your style...right? Wouldn't this be far more constructive to the conversation at-large than a mere summary dismissal of the archetype and commander in question?
It seems like your meta is pretty cutthroat, so I can totally see why no holds would be barred. Kaalia could be devastating there. Like I mentioned before though, her reputation proceeds her, so playing a sub-optimal build, in a less competitive meta, is still going to raise eyebrows. It may not be fair, but her bed is made. She's not the only commander like this - Oloro, Animar, Prossh, Jeleva, Tasigur, Derevi; I see them across the table, I know who to keep an eye on. If I don't take them out of the game, they'll do it to me.
I don't think the issue here for me is her playability. Clearly there's a couple of ways to make her viable, but for a potential build I think that knowing ahead of time precisely what I'm going to put in takes the fun out of it for me.
This is all personal opinion. If OP wants to build something that goes this hard and has a reasonably predetermined list of optimal inclusions, far be it for me to stop them. It's definitely not my preference; nonetheless, I offer apologies if my opinion has deterred anyone from entertaining her as a potential build.
I've tried several angel tribal deck designs, but I keep going back to Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Packed with plenty of artifact ramp to get Avacyn out early, the deck performs suprisingly well considering its mono-white. A life-gain subtheme fuels some additional draw to try and subvert the card advantage weakness of mono-white.
Thank you everyone for your suggestions, they’ve been tremendous help so far. I was surprised at how many people were suggesting mono-white commanders, I may need to rethink about excluding them.
As for the Kaalia debate, as I mentioned before, rightly or wrongly her reputation makes any game with her an auto archenemy game, something I’m not interested in. The playgroup at my lgs absolutely hates commanders like Kaalia and Animar and will go after them without hesitation.
Decent example; just the other week we had a person from a few towns over come in with his new dinosaur tribal deck. Everyone was excited to play..... until he opened his deck box and showed that it was ANIMAR temur Dinos. The pod he was in (I was in another pod unfortunately) immediately became an archenemy game until he scooped around turn 5..... and this being a pod that had a Scarab God mill deck AND an infect deck in the mix. So yeah, Kaalia as awesome as she is is definitely out.
what you want is to play Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, and use the degenerate combo of artificial evolution with Didgeridoo (naming angel, obviously). with blue, you run sifting, carddraw/tutors you can run disruption, some protection for your combo. The white half provides the angels, obviously.
what you want is to play Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, and use the degenerate combo of artificial evolution with Didgeridoo (naming angel, obviously). with blue, you run sifting, carddraw/tutors you can run disruption, some protection for your combo. The white half provides the angels, obviously.
Anything with Didgeridoo gets a 👍 from me lol. Backing this 💯.
Decent example; just the other week we had a person from a few towns over come in with his new dinosaur tribal deck. Everyone was excited to play..... until he opened his deck box and showed that it was ANIMAR temur Dinos. The pod he was in (I was in another pod unfortunately) immediately became an archenemy game until he scooped around turn 5..... and this being a pod that had a Scarab God mill deck AND an infect deck in the mix. So yeah, Kaalia as awesome as she is is definitely out.
I think Temur dinos might be about the fairest thing one could possibly do with Animar (even more than my Animar hydras deck). I mean, yeah, it's still Animar, and getting loads of big dinos out fast between ramp and Animar is dangerous, but still not sure it rates archenemy status. Ouch.
Decent example; just the other week we had a person from a few towns over come in with his new dinosaur tribal deck. Everyone was excited to play..... until he opened his deck box and showed that it was ANIMAR temur Dinos. The pod he was in (I was in another pod unfortunately) immediately became an archenemy game until he scooped around turn 5..... and this being a pod that had a Scarab God mill deck AND an infect deck in the mix. So yeah, Kaalia as awesome as she is is definitely out.
I think Temur dinos might be about the fairest thing one could possibly do with Animar (even more than my Animar hydras deck). I mean, yeah, it's still Animar, and getting loads of big dinos out fast between ramp and Animar is dangerous, but still not sure it rates archenemy status. Ouch.
Decent example; just the other week we had a person from a few towns over come in with his new dinosaur tribal deck. Everyone was excited to play..... until he opened his deck box and showed that it was ANIMAR temur Dinos. The pod he was in (I was in another pod unfortunately) immediately became an archenemy game until he scooped around turn 5..... and this being a pod that had a Scarab God mill deck AND an infect deck in the mix. So yeah, Kaalia as awesome as she is is definitely out.
I think Temur dinos might be about the fairest thing one could possibly do with Animar (even more than my Animar hydras deck). I mean, yeah, it's still Animar, and getting loads of big dinos out fast between ramp and Animar is dangerous, but still not sure it rates archenemy status. Ouch.
Threat assessment. Some groups don't have it.
Apparently not. I thought some of the people I play with were terrible at threat assessment, but I think most of them would say "Animar dinos? Cool beans, at least it's not Animar robots and eldrazi" and then focus on someone else as the greater threat.
Thanks to everyone who posted tips and suggestions, they were a big help in me building this deck. Based on advice from this thread and some outside sources I wound up building a Mono-W Gisela control deck with an angel/lifegain theme rather then a more dedicated tribal deck and its been a blast playing. BTW, whoever suggesting playing Cradle of Vitality, THANK YOU! That card is really great, especially alongside Herald of War.
Just as an aside, in defense of my playgroup's threat assesment (we've had a talk and everyone's agreed to try to do better and scale the competitive edge back a bit) I and a few others felt bad and offered to play him in a less competitve pod when he came back. Turns out Temur dinos are still scary when they have a turn 5 Etali, Primal Storm AND Nezahal, Primal Tide out at the same time!
Now on to the next deck lol.
edit: I am debating switching Gisela for Lyra but not sure how much a difference that 1 extra mana would make. Feel free to weigh in .
edit: I am debating switching Gisela for Lyra but not sure how much a difference that 1 extra mana would make. Feel free to weigh in .
I prefer Gisela for a voltron deck because that one turn in speed is important but depending on how much you want to put emphasis on it being an angel deck and not a voltron deck I think moving to Lyra is a reasonable consideration. This is coming from someone who plays Gisela, the Broken Blade as a commander.
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Of your list I like Shalai the best. GW is a playable color combo for Angels since it gets you some ramp at least. RW is just unplayable for slamming 5-6 drops imho.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
He cheap, he protec and he can make your angels unblockable.
*Looks to sig* no, you actually can build to one of the three types. And there's a second type coming soon-ish, I need time to compose those thoughts.
Lastly, your characterization of Kaalia being an aggro deck is wrong. This is a common misconception though so I won't hold it against you. Kaalia is actually a combo deck that pretends to be an aggro deck. Your "combo" here is setting up a board state where you can attack safely, and repeatedly, with your fragile 4cmc flyer.
List tags are malformed.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Its a goldfish deck. It can be classified as aggro or combo, its probably some of both. I still think she is overall fragile and predictable. It can't fight all that well against opposing combo decks as the colors she is in leaves you with some odd tools for that. I just think it gets outclassed by other players running the same level of tactics (totally my own personal opinion not stating any sort of fact here). Kaalia should make you strong vs counter magic but instead its likely they just counter your commander.
My issue is mostly that the level of degeneracy that you need to stoop to to make Kaalia good seems questionable given that if you face the same level of degenerate effects I don't think she is that good. Again, this is my own personal opinions and not some level of fact.
Also, if you are aiming this at 1v1 discussion I have no experience to argue there one way or another. I am basing mine on multiplayer. I am only saying this because I know you do some 1v1.
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[Modern] Allies
I've only ever played against her, never built, so can't speak from experience. My experience playing against her tells me that the staxy MLD builds have obliterated her reputation, though (I couldn't help that pun). She either gets targeted out of the game or makes it an unpleasant experience (unless, of course, you're alright with MLD - some are, I don't care, but I do prefer to know it's a possibility prior to picking a deck). I would love to have my mind changed - she's not an uninteresting commander, I just think she requires too much protection for my tastes. Totally my opinion, I am open to being proved incorrect.
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[Modern] Allies
Here are some ways that white can ramp which doesn’t leave you vulnerable to artifact removal.
Alternatively, these are options that ensure you hit your land drop every turn, which during the late game is just as good as ramping.
Esper - Sydri - Alternate take on the Artifacts meta
Orzhov - Regna and Krav - Tokens and Lifegain and +1/+1 counters
Mono Green - Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar - Land Matters
WURG Kynaios and Tiro Grouphug/Fistbump
I've either tried most of these in my build or run them present. There are some rocks in the deck, but at least a reasonable degree of the ramp options are not artifact mana. Gift of Estates is surprisingly good, Sword of the Animist less unpredictably so, Dowsing Dagger is great, and Azor's Gateway does draw/filter and big mana if you can flip it. Weathered Wayfarer is as good as its reputation, Isolated Watchtower has its moments.
Between that and solid draw options, the deck does really well.
It's not aggro. You can't aggro in commander because of multiple players and increased life totals, so get that notion out of your head. Aggro doesn't exist in commander. Full stop. The trifecta of archetypes is combo < control < ramp (which really is a specialized term for "midrange"). So, we're a combo deck that struggles at fighting other combo decks. Yes, this is as true of any deck without countermagic that is fighting against something that wins in one key turn. This is nothing new.
The issue you seem to be projecting here is all the builds of Kaalia you have witnessed do the same linear game plan, and likely lack the finesse that goes into proper tuning to make the deck do what the deck does best. Indeed, just about 80% of all first draft lists will boast some 30+ high end (6+ cmc) angels, demons, and dragons that don't actually win the game that really show their struggle when smart players take out the cheat mechanism as they should. So, yes, I can understand why your own view of the deck is as such. As well, I can understand that you prefer not to play it since many optimal lists (mine included) plays more like mass land destruction tribal than anything, often boasting of six or more land wipes in the deck at a time. Here's where the situation changes though;
A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. What? Let's say that one more time for the folks in the back. A deck is only as linear as it is built to be. If you build around one central plan, and that plan is easily contested, yes, you are going to appear to others as you having a bad deck. And, yes, most decks are built in such a way to as to be ignorant to this truth because they want to live the dream or they believe their plan is a hundred feet tall and bulletproof. What those players, and the average Kaalia resource doesn't take into account is, Kaalia is the gateway to the strategy, but she is not the only strategy. So you spent two premium removal spells on my 2/2. Okay, cool, great. Here's this Sneak Attack that lets me do the same thing. Or this Reanimate/Through the Breach. Quicksilver Amulet is still a card that exists, even if it's been kinda halfway replaced by Planar Bridge. Cheating cards out for far less than their retail pricepoint is a time-honoured tradition in Magic from the living death decks of old, to the more modernized birthing pod decks of today. That's what you're really doing, you're cheating pricepoints and utilizing the great wealth of tutours you have to clock your opponent in a ferociously fast manner (you even have a legitimate one-shot KO punch at your disposal!) None of these strats are strats I'd consider douchebaggery or exceedingly offensive to the senses such as resource denial seems to do to you.
And then, even if resource denial was the only way to build the deck, why is that even a problem in a format where people can and will kill you on t2? This is a flash-hulk format, a cephalid breakfast format, an AEtherflux Reservoir format, an ANT/Unlife format..........but you're getting rustled over the person who wants to have fun with their discounted, iconic creature types? And for the record I've won games where I never resolved my Ravages of War. So...is this really an issue you have with the commander's lack of playability appeal, or is it maybe sitting across from an inexperienced or struggling pilot that may have a suboptimal list that is overwhelmed by the wealth of information out there and doesn't know where to start building? If it's the latter...shouldn't you as a responsible player, offer some kind of help even if it's a proper forum link to go seek advice further? Hell,
you're a modyou were at one point a moderator on a forum with direct access to one of if not THE largest resources on the net for this particular deck.I mean, unless you rather just pubstomp the poor individual. I know that's not your style...right? Wouldn't this be far more constructive to the conversation at-large than a mere summary dismissal of the archetype and commander in question?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I am not trying to fight with you about the viability of Kaalia. I don't play 1v1 commander or combo / MLD tactics as what I play with or against so it really isn't something that is in the scope of my own experience. My take away though is primarily that you are justifying that the viable way to build Kaalia is in a way that I refuse to play. I guess my question is at what level of play do you start comparing how viable commanders are against each other. I am not here right now to say she is more or less viable than something else but for example if I were playing to a level of competitive where I wasn't holding back I would perhaps ask myself why play Kaalia MLD over Uril MLD. I have no idea which one is better in a competitive setting but if I am not holding back on my builds I feel like that is a fast track to asking what is the best and playing that rather than having fun building something less than optimal. I am here talking about mono white tribal commanders after all (about as far from CEDH as I can get).
Aggro - I think aggro totally can work in commander. If you are playing combo / LD tactics in your meta its a lot less likely to be viable but I play aggro / voltron / tokens all the time in commander. Generally speaking it relies on having a very low curve and a high draw component but I would consider my Edgar vampires to be an aggro deck. I also have a few others like my abzan Tymna deck, Gisela voltron, and Ghalta decks to be aggro. I am not saying that any of these are optimal but generally speaking I think aggro can be done as long as you are not asking yourself how to maximize your chances of winning games. I would still say that I have a very respectable win percentage with these decks though but again I am not playing against fast combo win decks most of the time.
Linear - I guess my answer is more that I guessed what 80+% of your list was before opening it. Kaalia is very builds herself in that most of the on tribe creatures are very predictable. She costs 4 mana so most people build with 0-2 mana stones to ramp into her faster and or to give her haste when she does land. I have seen a few Kaalia decks against me and I feel with fairly good certainty that I know mostly what I am going to see every game I encounter her. This isn't to say that other commanders aren't like this or that this is a bad thing but I personally really like the deckbuilding aspects of commander and I feel like she is more predictable and or solved than many commanders. Its not a bad thing I think it more means that the difficulty floor in building and playing her tends to be a bit lower. That isn't to say that the ceiling on play / building isn't there.
My issue with Kaalia is that she is a commander that gives me reasons to not let my opponent play the game with if I have options to interact with it. The reason for this is 100% based on being in the blind on what is coming into play. I can't even wait to see where she is going before wanting or needing to answer her. I really can't even come up with a constructive criticism of how to help another player play it better because my entire issue with her is that as soon as she is revealed, everyone else at the table has reasons to mulligan into answers and stop her from being relevant in said game. I don't like cold shutting players down but there are a number of commanders out there that give incentive to stop them cold before you see what they are going to do. I really could highlight a LOT of commanders that fall into this category but Kaalia is sort of unique in that she falls off in her value after her first 1-2 casts where others might retain their value over time.
I don't know what me having been a mod has to do with this. In general I don't like goldfish commanders and I do feel that Kaalia falls into that category of commander. This is my own personal opinion. If that is something that others are interested in they are more than welcome to explore that avenue. I am not trying to demean the commander or those who play it I just think its valid to point out that she is kind of a glass cannon goldfish kind of commander. There is nothing wrong with that, its not my thing but I think its valid to point out that is kind of how its played.
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[Modern] Allies
You can aggro in commander. I run Edgar Markov myself, and with a super low curve he's 100% aggro, and he's hard to beat unless you carry really early answers. There's plenty of other builds I'd consider aggro, too; Xenagos, God of Revels is pure aggro. Animar can do it, OG Kozilek can do it, Marchesa, the Black Rose and Grenzo, Dungeon Warden can do it. They may be easy beats for a well tuned competitive deck, but they hold their own - I've played against all of them and they all do well on a good day.
The issue of linear building is an issue with the builder, not the deck. Most of the time, anyway. There's a ton of commanders out there that are 'solved', and I tend to stay away from them personally. I've had more fun building Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Glissa, the Traitor, scratching my head the whole way along, than I'd get from building, say Meren or Kaalia. That being said, this is the format for being creative and showing your character. The point of 'douchebaggery' is really moot; it's 100% entirely meta dependent. I don't mind going up against MLD if I know beforehand, and I think most people are the same. I have a couple of decks that can work around it. But if you're sneaking it up on me, I absolutely have an issue with it; you're essentially saying 'I'm gonna play this one solitaire, guys'. If you're sneaking it up on people though, there's an element of unfriendliness there. It's not the easiest thing to plan around, and unless you're running Crucible, blue control, or taking Kaalia out early, you're screwed out of 2-3 hours of your time. Which, for me, is a valuable commodity, and I have no qualms being pissed at someone who screws me around like that.
It seems like your meta is pretty cutthroat, so I can totally see why no holds would be barred. Kaalia could be devastating there. Like I mentioned before though, her reputation proceeds her, so playing a sub-optimal build, in a less competitive meta, is still going to raise eyebrows. It may not be fair, but her bed is made. She's not the only commander like this - Oloro, Animar, Prossh, Jeleva, Tasigur, Derevi; I see them across the table, I know who to keep an eye on. If I don't take them out of the game, they'll do it to me.
I don't think the issue here for me is her playability. Clearly there's a couple of ways to make her viable, but for a potential build I think that knowing ahead of time precisely what I'm going to put in takes the fun out of it for me.
This is all personal opinion. If OP wants to build something that goes this hard and has a reasonably predetermined list of optimal inclusions, far be it for me to stop them. It's definitely not my preference; nonetheless, I offer apologies if my opinion has deterred anyone from entertaining her as a potential build.
As for the Kaalia debate, as I mentioned before, rightly or wrongly her reputation makes any game with her an auto archenemy game, something I’m not interested in. The playgroup at my lgs absolutely hates commanders like Kaalia and Animar and will go after them without hesitation.
Decent example; just the other week we had a person from a few towns over come in with his new dinosaur tribal deck. Everyone was excited to play..... until he opened his deck box and showed that it was ANIMAR temur Dinos. The pod he was in (I was in another pod unfortunately) immediately became an archenemy game until he scooped around turn 5..... and this being a pod that had a Scarab God mill deck AND an infect deck in the mix. So yeah, Kaalia as awesome as she is is definitely out.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Anything with Didgeridoo gets a 👍 from me lol. Backing this 💯.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think Temur dinos might be about the fairest thing one could possibly do with Animar (even more than my Animar hydras deck). I mean, yeah, it's still Animar, and getting loads of big dinos out fast between ramp and Animar is dangerous, but still not sure it rates archenemy status. Ouch.
Threat assessment. Some groups don't have it.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Apparently not. I thought some of the people I play with were terrible at threat assessment, but I think most of them would say "Animar dinos? Cool beans, at least it's not Animar robots and eldrazi" and then focus on someone else as the greater threat.
Just as an aside, in defense of my playgroup's threat assesment (we've had a talk and everyone's agreed to try to do better and scale the competitive edge back a bit) I and a few others felt bad and offered to play him in a less competitve pod when he came back. Turns out Temur dinos are still scary when they have a turn 5 Etali, Primal Storm AND Nezahal, Primal Tide out at the same time!
Now on to the next deck lol.
edit: I am debating switching Gisela for Lyra but not sure how much a difference that 1 extra mana would make. Feel free to weigh in .
I prefer Gisela for a voltron deck because that one turn in speed is important but depending on how much you want to put emphasis on it being an angel deck and not a voltron deck I think moving to Lyra is a reasonable consideration. This is coming from someone who plays Gisela, the Broken Blade as a commander.
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