Both Gifts Ungiven and Intuition do a similar effect, yet Gifts is banned and Intuition is not. I would even argue that Intuition can be the more powerful card at 3cmc. Doesn't make sense to me
I would even argue that Intuition can be the more powerful card
Hah!
Wrong!
Also, this is the incorrect forum for this.
Edit:] To give a little context - myself and a few others in my area use Intuition in different decks. When played correctly, the game tends to end the turn it resolves (or next turn for an End of Turn casting).
If given the option to play one of Intuition or Gifts Ungiven, every one of us] would, without hesitation, cut Intuition in favor of Gifts. And suddenly games would start ending when it resolves even when played incorrectly.
In a Storm style combo deck that runes Yawgmoth's Will and Past In Flames, the extra mana could be the difference of casting it a turn earlier and extra card could be irrelevant.
Also, lets say Gifts is just better. Does it warrant being banned though?
1) In a normal format, Gifts Ungiven needing to hit unique targets is a massive drawback requiring some very specific deck design to make work (and it's a major player in those formats anyways). In Commander, it is effectively drawback-less since all decks are highlander decks.
2) For one more mana, Gifts finds one more card to hand. That means even without shenanigans, it is "draw any two you want". Intuition is conversely just a less reliable Demonic Tutor in a vacuum.
3) Gifts is a card that is hard to find a "Fair" use for. It's a borderline for sure, one I know the Rules Committee struggles with, but 9 times out of 10, Gifts is going to go find a two card combo and two ways to recur/protect that combo. Intuition at least makes you work a little more for it (again, by dint of giving you one less card in hand).
They are extremely close in power, since in practice the cards going to your graveyard may as well mean they went to hand for any deck abusing either card (i.e. you're going to tutor for say Archaeomancer, Time Warp, Flood of Recollection, and Temporal Manipulation), so overall I imagine Gifts is banned because of "unintended side-effects with the format" - it was designed to limit deck design to exploit its power and that limitation doesn't exist. Personally I think in a world where Protean Hulk is unbanned gifts could probably come off, but I also don't know that the world needs blue to have yet another insanely strong instant staple.
It's certainly a borderline card, as is intuition, and I think they just end up on opposite sides of the border for the RC, at least for the time being. There are actually plenty of fair uses for it. It can be used as a tutor with extra value. Grab a couple wraths, a snapcaster, and a threat. Grab any 4 creatures in a graveyard deck. Grab 2 pieces of removal and snapcaster, etc.
It's main problem is that it just wins the game out of nowhere. Intuition takes a little more setup because you only get one card in hand and only grab 3 cards total. Getting 2 in hand and 2 in the yard creates a lot of packages that let you combo out that turn, with no prior setup, regardless of what else you have in hand and what your opponent does with the gifts choices.
The RC has been moving away from banning combo cards, and T&N does the same thing (just win out of nowhere without any setup). Gifts is cheaper though, so it can go off sooner. It wouldn't shock me if it came off the list, and I'd wager that it's one of the most likely unbanning candidates. I also would be surprised if it ends up staying banned for a while. The fact remains that it is, in practice, a 4 Mana instant speed tutor 4 due to the packages it can fetch up.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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Its a relic from when they banned for fast combo. They think its some boogey-man when in normal 'EDH the RC wants' type games its a little better than intuition.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Also is more versatile, being up to four cards means it can be used as a double entomb, negating the side effect of someone putting that piece that you need in the grave on your hand.
Also is more versatile, being up to four cards means it can be used as a double entomb, negating the side effect of someone putting that piece that you need in the grave on your hand.
To be fair, it's not like discard outlets don't exist.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Also is more versatile, being up to four cards means it can be used as a double entomb, negating the side effect of someone putting that piece that you need in the grave on your hand.
To be fair, it's not like discard outlets don't exist.
Discard outlets require you to have something in hand to discard it. Entomb lets you seek stuff out to put in the graveyard. Very different thing. Double Entomb itself can often lead to a GG situation early game.
Add in how cheap it is, and thus how early it can be cast, and I continue to be glad Gifts is banned, and strongly believe it needs to stay that way.
A lot of you seem to be under the misconception that the power difference between Intuition and Gifts Ungiven is minor.
There are two aspects that traditionaly would make Intuition a better option.
First is the mana cost to cast. While Intuition is better in this regard, the difference is less significant in Commander than in other constructed formats.
Second and more significantly is the search restriction on Gifts. This is a significant comparative drawback in other constructed formats, but so niche as to be entirely irrelevant to any discussion between the two in Commander.
Searching for a fourth card, and putting a second card into hand, is far more significant than costing 1 more to cast. So much so that the two are not really comparable in terms of power.
Gifts has another niche but relevant use that Intuition does not - the ability to control what cards are put into your graveyard by not searching for the full four - a `double Entomb`.
Cards are not banned based on power level, so their difference in power is moot. The better card costs more, but in 'fair' EDH games it is better, but not broken if Intuition isnt.
The RC does not ban based on horrific uses of cards - see the unban of P Hulk and Staff of Domination. Or DENs continued freedom.
This is a relic of when fast combo was banned out, but it never got caught up.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
That is... an incredibly misguided argument. I do not think it is fallacious, but it certainly includes aspects of a few fallacies.
First, we have already established that Gifts Ungiven behaves vastly differently in Commander than other constructed formats due to the unique deck construction rules. It Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
Second, I already pointed out that the scale of the effect makes Gifts Ungiven incomparable to Intuition in their impact on a game, derived from the difference in power of the cards.
Finally the power of a card is very much a factor in ban decisions. It is a key factor in Problematic Casual Omnipresence, and often contributes to Creates Undesirable Game States.
First, we have already established that Gifts Ungiven behaves vastly differently in Commander than other constructed formats due to the unique deck construction rules. It Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
That may be so, it does not address the point I was making about power level. There are lots of cards that interact with Commander in that fashion, including other cards that specifically search for cards with different names , puts some in your hand and the others in your GY.
Second, I already pointed out that the scale of the effect makes Gifts Ungiven incomparable to Intuition in their impact on a game, derived from the difference in power of the cards.
One is obviously more powerful. You saying they don't compare does not make it so, in fair games one is much better, but not light years better.
In the hyper competitive, yes it would be a real issue, especially when you can play both.
Finally the power of a card is very much a factor in ban decisions. It is a key factor in Problematic Casual Omnipresence, and often contributes to Creates Undesirable Game States.
The RC has specifically said they do not ban based on power level. Of course powerful cards are the type to come up often, strong effects are going to change games and make people take notice. Hulk can straight win you the game with less setup and less mana and sees TONS of play. What exactly is a double entomb doing thats degenerate but does not win?
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I think the best way to answer this is that there is enough of a difference between the two that puts Gifts Ungiven over the line where Intuition is safely on the other side. Members of the RC who have spoken on the subject have said as much:
From a Q&A article earlier this year on SCG (here)
A: Although they're about different cards, these are essentially the same question. The short version is that we evaluate cards on their own individual merits, not in comparison to other cards. The latter approach ("if this, then that") can lead to a cascade which could easily get out of hand. Nobody (especially us) wants a hundred card banned list. We do our best to take a big-picture view, a more holistic approach to the list, with one of the guiding principles being keeping it as small as is reasonable.
In reference to the specific cards, Gifts Ungiven is just under-costed for what it does. The one additional mana over Intuition for the one card pushes it over the top. Prophet of Kruphix is the poster child for one of the things which will get a card banned: it unintentionally wrecks games. You can just slap it into any appropriately-colored deck and it will make games miserable. Paradox Engine isn't all that bad until you build around it. We'd prefer to solve the latter problem by encouraging folks to build with a different mindset. A little social engineering isn't a bad thing.
Hien Nguyen asks, "I would like the Rules Committee to explicitly state their criteria for banning cards; and for the RC to be consistent with bannings. If you want it phrased as a question: Why are some cards banned but other similar cards aren't? (such Gifts Ungiven is banned, but Intuition isn't)."
Card banning is binary (it's banned or it isn't), but cards themselves aren't so cooperative. They fall on a continuum that stretches from completely safe to never ever. At some point along that continuum, there's a ban threshold. No matter where you set that, there will always be cards that fall just on one side or the other, and cards that may be superficially similar have enough differences to affect their placement. So while it might appear that we ban a card while endorsing another, that's just the binary overlay.
I'm always interested by the choice of "inconsistent" as an epithet. There isn't a science or a formal logic to be inconsistent with. (If one day we ban a card that has an identical-except-in-name alternative, then objection withdrawn.)
In the case of Gifts and Intuition, I'll note that the highlander nature of Commander makes Intuition weaker than it is in normal Magic play (where the most common scenario is to get three of the same card), while that same nature renders Gifts' drawback irrelevant. I believe Gifts is stronger in Commander, and they end up on different sides of the line.
It is interesting to note that the original reasons for banning Gifts Ungiven back in June 2009 (announcement here) are in line with the idea that being one-card game-enders is what is getting it banned.
GIFTS UNGIVEN
We know that this will raise a great cry from some players, but as we previously noted, Gifts is simply broken (especially at the 3U cost and the fact that it's an Instant). The ability to tutor for two combo pieces and two ways to recur them generally makes this a one-card game-ender, which we feel is completely contrary to the EDH vision.
Being a one-card game-ender isn't necessarily a direct reason to be banned per the current format philosophy (here), but it does specifically fall under the category of 'Creates Undesirable Game States'.
* Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.
In essence, Gifts Ungiven can definitely win the game out of nowhere in many many decks, whereas Intuition can really only do so in 2 or 3 (Storm, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, etc.) and takes a significantly more narrow approach to go out of your way to make it a game-ender in my opinion.
There are lots of cards that interact with Commander in that fashion, including other cards that specifically search for cards with different names , puts some in your hand and the others in your GY.
Literally the only two cards in the game that specifically search for cards with different names, put some in your hand and some in your graveyard are Gifts Ungiven and Realms Uncharted, which is Gifts Ungiven restricted to only land cards (and costs 1 less to cast). It even has art with the same design.
(Well, I suppose Gifts Given as well, but that's silver-border.)
That is... an incredibly misguided argument. I do not think it is fallacious, but it certainly includes aspects of a few fallacies.
First, we have already established that Gifts Ungiven behaves vastly differently in Commander than other constructed formats due to the unique deck construction rules. It Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
Second, I already pointed out that the scale of the effect makes Gifts Ungiven incomparable to Intuition in their impact on a game, derived from the difference in power of the cards.
Finally the power of a card is very much a factor in ban decisions. It is a key factor in Problematic Casual Omnipresence, and often contributes to Creates Undesirable Game States.
You're sort of on to something with the power level argument, in that it does indirectly impact whether a card gets banned because of how it influences the categories that actually directly impact bannings.
It indirectly impacts the "interacts poorly with the format" category, because cards only get banned for this when the interaction makes the card more powerful, not when the interaction weakens the card (Squadron Hawk interacts poorly with the nature of the format, but that would never be held against it because the nature of that poor interaction makes the card significantly less powerful). Even when the nature of the format makes the card functionally more powerful, it depends on how much. Sadistic Sacrament is, without kicker, a card that can get all but one of a key card out of a library in 60 card. Thus, it doesn't actually remove all copies of the card if you are facing a playset. In EDH, a singleton format, it removes all copies of 3 different cards, enabling a resolved SS to strip multiple combos out of a deck. This is a significant change in functionality, and yet because it is a modest increase in power level and still a relatively weak effect it doesn't merit a ban discussion.
It certainly impacts problematic casual omnipresence, simply because its difficult to imagine a card becoming both problematic AND omnipresent without being powerful. A problematic card that isn't powerful wouldn't be omnipresent, and an omnipresent card that isn't too powerful would not be problematic. Its not a perfectly correlated relationship though once you come at it from the other direction, as there are many, many very powerful cards in this format that are also staples. Some omnipresent cards are also more powerful than cards that have been banned with this criteria. The thing is, a card can easily both be very powerful and omnipresent without being problematic (and a card can be powerful and problematic WITHOUT being omnipresent). Being powerful may be necessary for this requirement, but it is far from sufficient.
Problematic board states is even less correlated, because you can have effects which aren't overly powerful that do this, though I'd venture that those are a bit less likely to get banned because they are less likely to actually cause problems. Divine Intervention could be an example here, as that will likely never be banned simply because its just not very good and unlikely to be ran, even though what it does when it works is something that isn't very good for the format
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I was always under the impression that "interacts poorly with the format" meant that a card behaved differently because of a Commander specific rule. Sort of how Riftsweeper was OP when there was no command zone and generals hung out in exile until cast.
Gifts works exactly the same in 60 card Magic as it does in Commander. The only difference is that they were able to cost it more aggressively because the drawback of having to thin your deck to just a few playsets. So in practice Gifts has power level issues, but not interacting poorly.
I was always under the impression that "interacts poorly with the format" meant that a card behaved differently because of a Commander specific rule. Sort of how Riftsweeper was OP when there was no command zone and generals hung out in exile until cast.
Gifts works exactly the same in 60 card Magic as it does in Commander. The only difference is that they were able to cost it more aggressively because the drawback of having to thin your deck to just a few playsets. So in practice Gifts has power level issues, but not interacting poorly.
That's just one way. I'm pretty sure that Limited Resources is banned partly for hitting the interacts poorly criteria, and the multiplayer nature of the format doesn't actually change what it does, it just makes it a lot more effective and powerful because its much easier to get to 10 lands with 4 players. Obviously, it also hits the creates undesireable game states category, because that's what it does, but that's also enabled in large part because of how it interacts with the format. Likewise, Squadron Hawk type card definitely interact poorly with the format as the singleton nature gimps their functionality, but of course this would never get them banned since it just makes them less powerful.
I'd say that it interacts with the singleton nature of the format to be undercosted compared to what it is in 60 card, but I'm not convinced that's interacting poorly. There are plenty of cards that get more powerful because of a format rule, like the many that get better because its a multiplayer format. Innocent Blood is a good card in 1v1 but gets you a hell of a lot more value in multiplayer, going from a cheap removal spell in 1v1 if you have no creatures (and a 1 for 2 if you do), to often a 3 for one removal spell. The thing is, while its an interaction, its not a bad interaction. It gets better, but not in a way that undermines the format or causes problems via power level. Perhaps the way Gifts interacts with the format contributes to it being too undercosted, but I'd say the real issue here is just that its undercosted. The increase in power from the singleton nature is actually pretty negligible, since you aren't actually gaining functionality, the draw back just doesn't matter because its already built in.
The better way to look at it is that its not actually Gifts that interacts poorly with the format, but Intuition, its just that the way Intuition interacts poorly with the format makes it less powerful. This does have the effect of making Intuition and Gifts the same effect, except Gifts costs one more and gets you another card that goes in hand, which makes it clearly, but not strictly, better, whereas in non singleton Intuition can act as a 3 mana instant speed Demonic Tutor in blue, which increases its power level vis a vis Gifts by allowing it to do something very strong that Gifts cannot.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
[quote from="cryogen »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/commander-rules-discussion-forum/801959-why-is-gifts-ungiven-banned-but-intuition-isnt?comment=20"]
The better way to look at it is that its not actually Gifts that interacts poorly with the format, but Intuition, its just that the way Intuition interacts poorly with the format makes it less powerful. This does have the effect of making Intuition and Gifts the same effect, except Gifts costs one more and gets you another card that goes in hand, which makes it clearly, but not strictly, better, whereas in non singleton Intuition can act as a 3 mana instant speed Demonic Tutor in blue, which increases its power level vis a vis Gifts by allowing it to do something very strong that Gifts cannot.
The only way Intuition acts like that if you are using 2/3rds of your choices as ways to retrieve the one card you actually want and then you are casting multiple spells and that is in no way a Demonic Tutor
[quote from="cryogen »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/commander-rules-discussion-forum/801959-why-is-gifts-ungiven-banned-but-intuition-isnt?comment=20"]
The better way to look at it is that its not actually Gifts that interacts poorly with the format, but Intuition, its just that the way Intuition interacts poorly with the format makes it less powerful. This does have the effect of making Intuition and Gifts the same effect, except Gifts costs one more and gets you another card that goes in hand, which makes it clearly, but not strictly, better, whereas in non singleton Intuition can act as a 3 mana instant speed Demonic Tutor in blue, which increases its power level vis a vis Gifts by allowing it to do something very strong that Gifts cannot.
The only way Intuition acts like that if you are using 2/3rds of your choices as ways to retrieve the one card you actually want and then you are casting multiple spells and that is in no way a Demonic Tutor
</blockquote>
You misread my post. It can be a 3 mana Demonic Tutor in regular magic, and loses that ability in commander due to the singelton nature of the format. You can search for three cards with the same name with Intuition. In non singleton formats, all you need to do is have 3 cards with the same name in your library, and bam, its a 3 mana instant speed demonic tutor in blue. Sure, its not quite that, as there are deckbuilding requirements (it sucks at searching for silver bullets or win cons that are one offs without also searching for ways to get them from your yard, so its only a demonic tutor for cards you run playsets of, or 3 of), and there is a negligible reliability issue (if you've already somehow lost two of the card from your library and you need a third, you obviously won't have three to grab), and can be better in some situations (a fun fair use is to grab 3 Demigods of Revenge), but its close enough to be worth the comparison. Commander, as a singleton format, causes it to lose this functionality. It interacts poorly with the singleton nature of the format in the same way that Squadron Hawk does, in that it gets significantly worse, its just that Intuition is still pretty great even after being nerfed by the format.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
To be fair, functional reprints are a thing. My Hakim deck runs Intuition, and my pile often includes both Pemmin's Aura and Freed from the Real (both exist in the deck primarily for the "U: Untap" ability), or else both Hermetic Study and Psionic Gift. These piles ensure that the particular aura I want definitely gets into my graveyard.
To be fair, functional reprints are a thing. My Hakim deck runs Intuition, and my pile often includes both Pemmin's Aura and Freed from the Real (both exist in the deck primarily for the "U: Untap" ability), or else both Hermetic Study and Psionic Gift. These piles ensure that the particular aura I want definitely gets into my graveyard.
True, but that requires functional reprints to exist for the card you want (or for you to have multiple cards that serve the same function, like grabbing path swords and rapid hybridization, or three different wraths). Its a nice little bit of extra functionality though, acting as a semi buried alive for any card type.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Hah!
Wrong!
Also, this is the incorrect forum for this.
Edit:] To give a little context - myself and a few others in my area use Intuition in different decks. When played correctly, the game tends to end the turn it resolves (or next turn for an End of Turn casting).
If given the option to play one of Intuition or Gifts Ungiven, every one of us] would, without hesitation, cut Intuition in favor of Gifts. And suddenly games would start ending when it resolves even when played incorrectly.
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Also, lets say Gifts is just better. Does it warrant being banned though?
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
2) For one more mana, Gifts finds one more card to hand. That means even without shenanigans, it is "draw any two you want". Intuition is conversely just a less reliable Demonic Tutor in a vacuum.
3) Gifts is a card that is hard to find a "Fair" use for. It's a borderline for sure, one I know the Rules Committee struggles with, but 9 times out of 10, Gifts is going to go find a two card combo and two ways to recur/protect that combo. Intuition at least makes you work a little more for it (again, by dint of giving you one less card in hand).
They are extremely close in power, since in practice the cards going to your graveyard may as well mean they went to hand for any deck abusing either card (i.e. you're going to tutor for say Archaeomancer, Time Warp, Flood of Recollection, and Temporal Manipulation), so overall I imagine Gifts is banned because of "unintended side-effects with the format" - it was designed to limit deck design to exploit its power and that limitation doesn't exist. Personally I think in a world where Protean Hulk is unbanned gifts could probably come off, but I also don't know that the world needs blue to have yet another insanely strong instant staple.
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It's main problem is that it just wins the game out of nowhere. Intuition takes a little more setup because you only get one card in hand and only grab 3 cards total. Getting 2 in hand and 2 in the yard creates a lot of packages that let you combo out that turn, with no prior setup, regardless of what else you have in hand and what your opponent does with the gifts choices.
The RC has been moving away from banning combo cards, and T&N does the same thing (just win out of nowhere without any setup). Gifts is cheaper though, so it can go off sooner. It wouldn't shock me if it came off the list, and I'd wager that it's one of the most likely unbanning candidates. I also would be surprised if it ends up staying banned for a while. The fact remains that it is, in practice, a 4 Mana instant speed tutor 4 due to the packages it can fetch up.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
To be fair, it's not like discard outlets don't exist.
On phasing:
Even Divining Top got banned in Legacy.
Discard outlet is very different than Entombx2
Add in how cheap it is, and thus how early it can be cast, and I continue to be glad Gifts is banned, and strongly believe it needs to stay that way.
There are two aspects that traditionaly would make Intuition a better option.
First is the mana cost to cast. While Intuition is better in this regard, the difference is less significant in Commander than in other constructed formats.
Second and more significantly is the search restriction on Gifts. This is a significant comparative drawback in other constructed formats, but so niche as to be entirely irrelevant to any discussion between the two in Commander.
Searching for a fourth card, and putting a second card into hand, is far more significant than costing 1 more to cast. So much so that the two are not really comparable in terms of power.
Gifts has another niche but relevant use that Intuition does not - the ability to control what cards are put into your graveyard by not searching for the full four - a `double Entomb`.
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The RC does not ban based on horrific uses of cards - see the unban of P Hulk and Staff of Domination. Or DENs continued freedom.
This is a relic of when fast combo was banned out, but it never got caught up.
First, we have already established that Gifts Ungiven behaves vastly differently in Commander than other constructed formats due to the unique deck construction rules. It Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
Second, I already pointed out that the scale of the effect makes Gifts Ungiven incomparable to Intuition in their impact on a game, derived from the difference in power of the cards.
Finally the power of a card is very much a factor in ban decisions. It is a key factor in Problematic Casual Omnipresence, and often contributes to Creates Undesirable Game States.
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One is obviously more powerful. You saying they don't compare does not make it so, in fair games one is much better, but not light years better.
In the hyper competitive, yes it would be a real issue, especially when you can play both.
The RC has specifically said they do not ban based on power level. Of course powerful cards are the type to come up often, strong effects are going to change games and make people take notice. Hulk can straight win you the game with less setup and less mana and sees TONS of play. What exactly is a double entomb doing thats degenerate but does not win?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
From a Q&A article earlier this year on SCG (here)
Q: Why is Intuition okay but Gifts Ungiven banned? Can you explain the reasoning to Prophet of Kruphix being banned but Paradox Engine not being banned?
A: Although they're about different cards, these are essentially the same question. The short version is that we evaluate cards on their own individual merits, not in comparison to other cards. The latter approach ("if this, then that") can lead to a cascade which could easily get out of hand. Nobody (especially us) wants a hundred card banned list. We do our best to take a big-picture view, a more holistic approach to the list, with one of the guiding principles being keeping it as small as is reasonable.
In reference to the specific cards, Gifts Ungiven is just under-costed for what it does. The one additional mana over Intuition for the one card pushes it over the top. Prophet of Kruphix is the poster child for one of the things which will get a card banned: it unintentionally wrecks games. You can just slap it into any appropriately-colored deck and it will make games miserable. Paradox Engine isn't all that bad until you build around it. We'd prefer to solve the latter problem by encouraging folks to build with a different mindset. A little social engineering isn't a bad thing.
From a recent Q&A article on SCG (here)
Hien Nguyen asks, "I would like the Rules Committee to explicitly state their criteria for banning cards; and for the RC to be consistent with bannings. If you want it phrased as a question: Why are some cards banned but other similar cards aren't? (such Gifts Ungiven is banned, but Intuition isn't)."
We have gone into a lot of detail on what we look for when considering a card for banning.
Card banning is binary (it's banned or it isn't), but cards themselves aren't so cooperative. They fall on a continuum that stretches from completely safe to never ever. At some point along that continuum, there's a ban threshold. No matter where you set that, there will always be cards that fall just on one side or the other, and cards that may be superficially similar have enough differences to affect their placement. So while it might appear that we ban a card while endorsing another, that's just the binary overlay.
I'm always interested by the choice of "inconsistent" as an epithet. There isn't a science or a formal logic to be inconsistent with. (If one day we ban a card that has an identical-except-in-name alternative, then objection withdrawn.)
In the case of Gifts and Intuition, I'll note that the highlander nature of Commander makes Intuition weaker than it is in normal Magic play (where the most common scenario is to get three of the same card), while that same nature renders Gifts' drawback irrelevant. I believe Gifts is stronger in Commander, and they end up on different sides of the line.
It is interesting to note that the original reasons for banning Gifts Ungiven back in June 2009 (announcement here) are in line with the idea that being one-card game-enders is what is getting it banned.
We know that this will raise a great cry from some players, but as we previously noted, Gifts is simply broken (especially at the 3U cost and the fact that it's an Instant). The ability to tutor for two combo pieces and two ways to recur them generally makes this a one-card game-ender, which we feel is completely contrary to the EDH vision.
* Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.
In essence, Gifts Ungiven can definitely win the game out of nowhere in many many decks, whereas Intuition can really only do so in 2 or 3 (Storm, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, etc.) and takes a significantly more narrow approach to go out of your way to make it a game-ender in my opinion.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
(Well, I suppose Gifts Given as well, but that's silver-border.)
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You're sort of on to something with the power level argument, in that it does indirectly impact whether a card gets banned because of how it influences the categories that actually directly impact bannings.
It indirectly impacts the "interacts poorly with the format" category, because cards only get banned for this when the interaction makes the card more powerful, not when the interaction weakens the card (Squadron Hawk interacts poorly with the nature of the format, but that would never be held against it because the nature of that poor interaction makes the card significantly less powerful). Even when the nature of the format makes the card functionally more powerful, it depends on how much. Sadistic Sacrament is, without kicker, a card that can get all but one of a key card out of a library in 60 card. Thus, it doesn't actually remove all copies of the card if you are facing a playset. In EDH, a singleton format, it removes all copies of 3 different cards, enabling a resolved SS to strip multiple combos out of a deck. This is a significant change in functionality, and yet because it is a modest increase in power level and still a relatively weak effect it doesn't merit a ban discussion.
It certainly impacts problematic casual omnipresence, simply because its difficult to imagine a card becoming both problematic AND omnipresent without being powerful. A problematic card that isn't powerful wouldn't be omnipresent, and an omnipresent card that isn't too powerful would not be problematic. Its not a perfectly correlated relationship though once you come at it from the other direction, as there are many, many very powerful cards in this format that are also staples. Some omnipresent cards are also more powerful than cards that have been banned with this criteria. The thing is, a card can easily both be very powerful and omnipresent without being problematic (and a card can be powerful and problematic WITHOUT being omnipresent). Being powerful may be necessary for this requirement, but it is far from sufficient.
Problematic board states is even less correlated, because you can have effects which aren't overly powerful that do this, though I'd venture that those are a bit less likely to get banned because they are less likely to actually cause problems. Divine Intervention could be an example here, as that will likely never be banned simply because its just not very good and unlikely to be ran, even though what it does when it works is something that isn't very good for the format
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Gifts works exactly the same in 60 card Magic as it does in Commander. The only difference is that they were able to cost it more aggressively because the drawback of having to thin your deck to just a few playsets. So in practice Gifts has power level issues, but not interacting poorly.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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That's just one way. I'm pretty sure that Limited Resources is banned partly for hitting the interacts poorly criteria, and the multiplayer nature of the format doesn't actually change what it does, it just makes it a lot more effective and powerful because its much easier to get to 10 lands with 4 players. Obviously, it also hits the creates undesireable game states category, because that's what it does, but that's also enabled in large part because of how it interacts with the format. Likewise, Squadron Hawk type card definitely interact poorly with the format as the singleton nature gimps their functionality, but of course this would never get them banned since it just makes them less powerful.
I'd say that it interacts with the singleton nature of the format to be undercosted compared to what it is in 60 card, but I'm not convinced that's interacting poorly. There are plenty of cards that get more powerful because of a format rule, like the many that get better because its a multiplayer format. Innocent Blood is a good card in 1v1 but gets you a hell of a lot more value in multiplayer, going from a cheap removal spell in 1v1 if you have no creatures (and a 1 for 2 if you do), to often a 3 for one removal spell. The thing is, while its an interaction, its not a bad interaction. It gets better, but not in a way that undermines the format or causes problems via power level. Perhaps the way Gifts interacts with the format contributes to it being too undercosted, but I'd say the real issue here is just that its undercosted. The increase in power from the singleton nature is actually pretty negligible, since you aren't actually gaining functionality, the draw back just doesn't matter because its already built in.
The better way to look at it is that its not actually Gifts that interacts poorly with the format, but Intuition, its just that the way Intuition interacts poorly with the format makes it less powerful. This does have the effect of making Intuition and Gifts the same effect, except Gifts costs one more and gets you another card that goes in hand, which makes it clearly, but not strictly, better, whereas in non singleton Intuition can act as a 3 mana instant speed Demonic Tutor in blue, which increases its power level vis a vis Gifts by allowing it to do something very strong that Gifts cannot.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The only way Intuition acts like that if you are using 2/3rds of your choices as ways to retrieve the one card you actually want and then you are casting multiple spells and that is in no way a Demonic Tutor
You misread my post. It can be a 3 mana Demonic Tutor in regular magic, and loses that ability in commander due to the singelton nature of the format. You can search for three cards with the same name with Intuition. In non singleton formats, all you need to do is have 3 cards with the same name in your library, and bam, its a 3 mana instant speed demonic tutor in blue. Sure, its not quite that, as there are deckbuilding requirements (it sucks at searching for silver bullets or win cons that are one offs without also searching for ways to get them from your yard, so its only a demonic tutor for cards you run playsets of, or 3 of), and there is a negligible reliability issue (if you've already somehow lost two of the card from your library and you need a third, you obviously won't have three to grab), and can be better in some situations (a fun fair use is to grab 3 Demigods of Revenge), but its close enough to be worth the comparison. Commander, as a singleton format, causes it to lose this functionality. It interacts poorly with the singleton nature of the format in the same way that Squadron Hawk does, in that it gets significantly worse, its just that Intuition is still pretty great even after being nerfed by the format.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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True, but that requires functional reprints to exist for the card you want (or for you to have multiple cards that serve the same function, like grabbing path swords and rapid hybridization, or three different wraths). Its a nice little bit of extra functionality though, acting as a semi buried alive for any card type.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!