Had to remove Protean Hulk from Karador, Ghost Chieftain because the first time I drew it, my only two options were 1. Combo the entire table, or 2. purposefully search a sub-optimal set of cards to keep the game going. Card is too powerful in that deck. The definition of 1 card combo.
I still play Tooth and Nail because I typically avoid 2-card "I WIN" combos, so it doesn't typically break games in my decks. Also it is not a creature sitting in the graveyard begging to be reanimated for more combo annoyingness.
That said, I don’t get why Wound Reflection is on Sheldon’s list.
The only experience i had with that card was pretty bad. A not-so-good player used it during a match. Before that card, he was completely irrelevant. He played subpar card, subpar synergies, and so on. Everything he played was destroy by wraths, bad trades or was simply irrelevant. No one gave him attention for 90% of the game (it was late game, mind you).
He then plays a Wound Reflection.
Our life points start to get eaten twice as fast. He, alone, without other cards, without synergies or clever deckbuilding, is able to deal as much damage as the other 3 player that, before that, were clearly superior.
So what? We enjoyd our efforts, destroyed the reflection and started to attack him. He started to whine, saying things like "as soon as my deck starts working you gang on me, you are doing it on purpose" or "i just have one card, you all have bigger board states". And you know, he wasn't completely wrong.
Such is the power of one-sided passive cards. The distinction is passives don't work in 1v1 because you're the only opponent while in multiplayer it lets other opponents do your work for you and it's pretty safe (and pretty reasonable) to expect that people don't like that. I once was behind a game and decided to lay down Exquisite Blood just so I could try to get Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim to do some work... and well it got a target painted on me rather quickly.
It's sort of like an abstract form of theft cards, where you put your opponents' stronger board states to work for you instead of stealing their best creature(s) directly, except while it's sort of abstract I wouldn't call it subtle since pretty much everyone figures out what it actually is before it gets to pull off its stunt. If the stunt gets pulled halfway (like in your case), people tend to get even more vengeful since they realized they technically fell for the stunt (even if only halfway through) instead of realizing it straightaway and well, when you're in a game there's pretty much only one direction to lead that vengeance to (nobody really goes "well that was stupid of me, I concede" for cases like this where bluntly put it's just your own stupidity that crippled yourself but not really locked you out of the game).
Cards like this are bluntly put, pretty much only trouble magnets by themselves. Way too slow to ever win games by themselves because even those who fall for them realize it halfway through and in groups who recognize them immediately, at their really best they're intentional removal bait. Note I run Exquisite Blood primarily as a combo piece and my incident was one of those corner cases when I'm in trouble that game regardless so might as well just give the magnet a go.
I don't generally mind playing against most anything, but at the same time... don't be surprised if I don't praise you for pulling out a Stasis lock or Tooth&Nail combo. Or if you turn the game into 20-minute solitaire with 5 extra turns, don't get sour if people whip up their phones and tell you to say when you're done.
Most fun games are ones that go back-and-forth, so I build with that in mind.
I avoid singular wincons, and am not a fan of infinite combos (if I accidentally create one with whatever's on board, that's a different thing).
I vastly prefer fast turns, and I think I've only used extra turn effects as pretty much 'draw + extra combat' in decks that lack red.
I only allow myself narrow tutors that search for relevant-to-idea cards (equipment tutors in Zedruu primalily for Sunforger, for example).
MLD I ever had in one deck back when I started as 'win con', realized how not-fun it is to play against it, and dismantled it.
I try to not limit other players' ability to directly play the game. Deadeye Navigator I sometimes forget is not actually banned, since we inhouse banned it years ago with my wife.
Only two decks that center around stealing effects, because when I play them I need to be super-careful to not accidentally steal anyone else's cards when packing up the game(depending on sleeves et al, ofc). Keeping track of such things can get tedious fast.
Handful of other obviously powerful cards mentioned here and there in this topic. Synergy engines are more my forte.
I also tend to build far more for theme and fun interactions than win-%, ending my decks with far less 'staples' than a lot of decks I see. I win less, but when I do it feels kind of great because my decks aren't tuned to the max.
From the cards in the article, Wound Reflection and Paradox Engine are ones I've run. Paradox Engine is in an otherwise low-power deck that just happens to have manarocks central to its' idea, but it's also just one deck out of 33, and can't tutor for the card. Wound Reflection I think was in an enchantment-centric Mogis, God of Slaughter punisher/voltron that never really worked anyway.
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While in principle I agree with 'everything goes', having ways to deal with some strategies can at times be hard to fit into your own. If one player makes an oppressive stax deck of some sort or something that combos really hard, well, sometimes the only proper answer is a hatebears deck of some sort that specifically stops that kind of deck from being a problem. The problem with that, though, is your 'hatebears' deck you built to deal with that given problem is what you've been forced into to have a chance, and when you have to run cards like Torpor Orb to keep things under control, consequentially a great deal of decks you might like to build around just can't run that Torpor Orb without shutting down their own ideal cards too - to me it's a moderately sized conundrum when it comes to dealing with the more annoying decks out there - one would like to play some fun stategy or theme themselves, but carrying a lot of the specific cards that will hose another problem deck may do nothing synergistically to help your own strategy. As such, I'm always trying to make decks that can run some diverse sets of answers to problems and can adapt to many situations while still helping themselves, but what inevitably ends up happening is the pool of commanders I see as viable to build around shrinks to a very small number.
As such, I'd like to see Wizards print more viable hatebears-capable commanders, commanders that specifically make otherwise situational hatebears cards like Torpor Orb, Containment Priest, Ground Seal, etc really help your own deck's strategy in some clever synergistic way too.
I'll do anything once, but sometimes only once. My very first game playing Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign I hit Approach of the Second Sun with my very first trigger, and I had a Mystical Tutor in hand. Before my next turn everyone tried their best to take me out and got me to five life before I won. It was pretty damn fun, but right after that I swapped Approach out for another card because I didn't want to do it again the next game and I wanted to keep on playing the deck.
I remember playing against a tuned Sisay deck and applauding how the player piloted it the first game. But it was his only deck and he continued to play it the rest of the night and nobody else could keep up with it. Sad times.
I think it's the responsibility of the player to go ahead and do your powerful/broken thing to have the fun of doing it, and then consider the other players and change up cards or pull out something different for the next game.
Echoing a post above: if you don’t like a particular card or strategy, punish it. Destroy it. Disallow it (with cards, not house rules).
I’ve yet to run into any real problems with this approach.
This is the cEDH approach. Nothing wrong with the playstyle but I think it’s pretty clear a large majority of play groups don’t want the game to play out this way.
In my case, the trouble with it is that the card pool dwindles over time as everyone’s lists get closer and closer to the Top 25 lists on this site. I like EDH for the much greater variety than many other formats and anything goes kind of kills that.
Especially when “almost anything goes” allows for orders of magnitude more quantity of viable cards. But your group has to be ok with fuzzy guidelines for deck building and that won’t work for everyone.
There are no cards I will universally refuse to play because of power levels. However, I will certainly avoid certain cards in specific decks if the power level of the card doesn't match the level I'm aiming the deck at.
I generally agree with this. If I'm playing mono-white aggro, I'll include land wipes (and generally let people know in advance) because it's so difficult to be successful with mono-white without them, let alone aggro. But I generally won't if it isn't integral to the strategy of the deck, or if I think the deck will be strong enough without them.
There are some cards, like Palinchron, that I don't think have any fun or fair use, though. I guess you can play it in control, but it's basically just a garbage aetherling. Or cards like Iona, shield of emeria that don't really have any synergies (besides the banned one) which thus never make the cut for being both dickish and non-synergistic. I'd generally like my deck to over-commit to synergy so I can use a wider variety of cards, than include a bunch of boring staples - even if the staples might be better on balance.
Echoing a post above: if you don’t like a particular card or strategy, punish it. Destroy it. Disallow it (with cards, not house rules).
I’ve yet to run into any real problems with this approach.
This is the cEDH approach. Nothing wrong with the playstyle but I think it’s pretty clear a large majority of play groups don’t want the game to play out this way.
In my case, the trouble with it is that the card pool dwindles over time as everyone’s lists get closer and closer to the Top 25 lists on this site. I like EDH for the much greater variety than many other formats and anything goes kind of kills that.
Especially when “almost anything goes” allows for orders of magnitude more quantity of viable cards. But your group has to be ok with fuzzy guidelines for deck building and that won’t work for everyone.
Playing cards to disrupt others is the Game of Magic not limited to Competitive or not.
Also having no limits on the cards you play doesn't automatically remove those limits from how you build decks and choose to play the game.
One mana tutors, or tutors that search without restriction are very powerful. Tutors with strict limitations are much more tame, while still being fun and useful. I have reduced the number of cheap tutors I run, but still find wide use for cards like Recruiter of the Guard, Birthing Pod, and Spellseeker as useful cards to help provide some consistency without being overly linear.
Also having no limits on the cards you play doesn't automatically remove those limits from how you build decks and choose to play the game.
Can you elaborate on this? My take would be that limiting how you build decks is limiting the cards that you play and I'm curious how you distinguish those.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Also having no limits on the cards you play doesn't automatically remove those limits from how you build decks and choose to play the game.
Can you elaborate on this? My take would be that limiting how you build decks is limiting the cards that you play and I'm curious how you distinguish those.
I assume the point here is that playing Kiki-Jiki with or without one of those comborific creatures we all know and love is very different. One way is a highly flexible value tool, while the other is a true infinite combo that ends the game on the spot if not answered.
I assume the point here is that playing Kiki-Jiki with or without one of those comborific creatures we all know and love is very different. One way is a highly flexible value tool, while the other is a true infinite combo that ends the game on the spot if not answered.
To me, that's choosing to not play a card for power level reasons. Power level doesn't need to only apply to cards that are powerful on their own. Omitting combo pieces fits that just as well.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
However I agree with matching up power level of decks. I don't want to play my highly tuned cEDH deck against your Tribal Ooze deck. Power level discussion and discussion in general is good for your play group.
I agree that omitting a combo piece is still a "power factor" reason. I play Kiki-Jiki and purposefully omit the infinite combos. I do play Mystic Snake as a soft lock because its not overpowered, but is a powerful interaction that doesn't win on it's own.
Besides avoiding easy infinite combos, there are few cards (already mentioned) I omit for individual power levels.
My main decks still have combo potential, but to effectively win there are still 3-4 cards required NOT including the Commander.
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I am avoiding Craterhoof Behemoth in my Titania, Protector of Argoth deck because of power reasons.
Debating removing Paradox Engine from Daretti, Scrap Savant artifacts because it's so broken with mana rocks.
Had to remove Protean Hulk from Karador, Ghost Chieftain because the first time I drew it, my only two options were 1. Combo the entire table, or 2. purposefully search a sub-optimal set of cards to keep the game going. Card is too powerful in that deck. The definition of 1 card combo.
I still play Tooth and Nail because I typically avoid 2-card "I WIN" combos, so it doesn't typically break games in my decks. Also it is not a creature sitting in the graveyard begging to be reanimated for more combo annoyingness.
Such is the power of one-sided passive cards. The distinction is passives don't work in 1v1 because you're the only opponent while in multiplayer it lets other opponents do your work for you and it's pretty safe (and pretty reasonable) to expect that people don't like that. I once was behind a game and decided to lay down Exquisite Blood just so I could try to get Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim to do some work... and well it got a target painted on me rather quickly.
It's sort of like an abstract form of theft cards, where you put your opponents' stronger board states to work for you instead of stealing their best creature(s) directly, except while it's sort of abstract I wouldn't call it subtle since pretty much everyone figures out what it actually is before it gets to pull off its stunt. If the stunt gets pulled halfway (like in your case), people tend to get even more vengeful since they realized they technically fell for the stunt (even if only halfway through) instead of realizing it straightaway and well, when you're in a game there's pretty much only one direction to lead that vengeance to (nobody really goes "well that was stupid of me, I concede" for cases like this where bluntly put it's just your own stupidity that crippled yourself but not really locked you out of the game).
Cards like this are bluntly put, pretty much only trouble magnets by themselves. Way too slow to ever win games by themselves because even those who fall for them realize it halfway through and in groups who recognize them immediately, at their really best they're intentional removal bait. Note I run Exquisite Blood primarily as a combo piece and my incident was one of those corner cases when I'm in trouble that game regardless so might as well just give the magnet a go.
Most fun games are ones that go back-and-forth, so I build with that in mind.
I avoid singular wincons, and am not a fan of infinite combos (if I accidentally create one with whatever's on board, that's a different thing).
I vastly prefer fast turns, and I think I've only used extra turn effects as pretty much 'draw + extra combat' in decks that lack red.
I only allow myself narrow tutors that search for relevant-to-idea cards (equipment tutors in Zedruu primalily for Sunforger, for example).
MLD I ever had in one deck back when I started as 'win con', realized how not-fun it is to play against it, and dismantled it.
I try to not limit other players' ability to directly play the game.
Deadeye Navigator I sometimes forget is not actually banned, since we inhouse banned it years ago with my wife.
Only two decks that center around stealing effects, because when I play them I need to be super-careful to not accidentally steal anyone else's cards when packing up the game(depending on sleeves et al, ofc). Keeping track of such things can get tedious fast.
Handful of other obviously powerful cards mentioned here and there in this topic. Synergy engines are more my forte.
I also tend to build far more for theme and fun interactions than win-%, ending my decks with far less 'staples' than a lot of decks I see. I win less, but when I do it feels kind of great because my decks aren't tuned to the max.
From the cards in the article, Wound Reflection and Paradox Engine are ones I've run. Paradox Engine is in an otherwise low-power deck that just happens to have manarocks central to its' idea, but it's also just one deck out of 33, and can't tutor for the card. Wound Reflection I think was in an enchantment-centric Mogis, God of Slaughter punisher/voltron that never really worked anyway.
Echoing a post above: if you don’t like a particular card or strategy, punish it. Destroy it. Disallow it (with cards, not house rules).
I’ve yet to run into any real problems with this approach.
As such, I'd like to see Wizards print more viable hatebears-capable commanders, commanders that specifically make otherwise situational hatebears cards like Torpor Orb, Containment Priest, Ground Seal, etc really help your own deck's strategy in some clever synergistic way too.
I have found that this approach leads to an arms race, with each person just building faster, and harder decks. But if this works for you, go for it.
I remember playing against a tuned Sisay deck and applauding how the player piloted it the first game. But it was his only deck and he continued to play it the rest of the night and nobody else could keep up with it. Sad times.
I think it's the responsibility of the player to go ahead and do your powerful/broken thing to have the fun of doing it, and then consider the other players and change up cards or pull out something different for the next game.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
This is the cEDH approach. Nothing wrong with the playstyle but I think it’s pretty clear a large majority of play groups don’t want the game to play out this way.
In my case, the trouble with it is that the card pool dwindles over time as everyone’s lists get closer and closer to the Top 25 lists on this site. I like EDH for the much greater variety than many other formats and anything goes kind of kills that.
Especially when “almost anything goes” allows for orders of magnitude more quantity of viable cards. But your group has to be ok with fuzzy guidelines for deck building and that won’t work for everyone.
There are some cards, like Palinchron, that I don't think have any fun or fair use, though. I guess you can play it in control, but it's basically just a garbage aetherling. Or cards like Iona, shield of emeria that don't really have any synergies (besides the banned one) which thus never make the cut for being both dickish and non-synergistic. I'd generally like my deck to over-commit to synergy so I can use a wider variety of cards, than include a bunch of boring staples - even if the staples might be better on balance.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Playing cards to disrupt others is the Game of Magic not limited to Competitive or not.
Also having no limits on the cards you play doesn't automatically remove those limits from how you build decks and choose to play the game.
It's been that way for years. And we prefer our games this way.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
What type of tutors?
One mana tutors, or tutors that search without restriction are very powerful. Tutors with strict limitations are much more tame, while still being fun and useful. I have reduced the number of cheap tutors I run, but still find wide use for cards like Recruiter of the Guard, Birthing Pod, and Spellseeker as useful cards to help provide some consistency without being overly linear.
However I agree with matching up power level of decks. I don't want to play my highly tuned cEDH deck against your Tribal Ooze deck. Power level discussion and discussion in general is good for your play group.
Competitive
GUWB Thrasios/Tymna Breakfast Hulk GUWB - RGBW Tana/Tymna Blood Pod - URGAnimar, Soul of ElementsURG - UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU
Tuned
UBG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (Write Up) UBG-BG The Gitrog Monster BG-UG Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca UG - UBG Muldrota, the Gravetide UBG - UBW Varina, Lich Queen UBW - RB Xantcha, Sleeper Agent RB - UB Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow UB - GWURafiq of the Many GWU - WUB Oloro, Ageless Lich WUB - GUBRKydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher The Fierce GUBR - BG Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons GB - WB Athreos, God of Passage WB - UBThe Scarab God UB - UBRMarchesa, the Affinity RoseUBR - UBGTasigur, the Golden FangUBG - GSelvala, Heart of the WildsG - BRGrusilda, Monster MasherBR - BChainer, Dementia MasterB - WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG - URMizzix's Thousand Year StormUR - RGOmnath, Locust of RageRG - GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestGU - WUBrago, King EternalWU
Legecy Decks
W Death and Taxes W-C Eldrazi Stompy C-R Mono Red Prison R-U MerfolkU
Besides avoiding easy infinite combos, there are few cards (already mentioned) I omit for individual power levels.
My main decks still have combo potential, but to effectively win there are still 3-4 cards required NOT including the Commander.