I normally agree with most of what MaRo has to say, but white not being able to draw cards is such a fundamental problem in a multiplayer format rife with board wipes that it really has to be addressed (especially when green already gets around its supposed biggest weaknesses with past severe color pie breaks like Beast Within). Given that Dawn of Hope exists, I expect that there are others on R&D who recognize this problem and are pushing for action to correct it, even if MaRo doesn't agree 100%. Given that he's not really a Commander player and doesn't work on the Commander product, I wouldn't expect him to have much experience with just how painful it is to lack sufficient card draw in the format.
The simple fact is that in a format where three other players are answering any given threat, where weenie aggro cannot rush down and win, and where board wipes are a when, not an if, inability to refill on the game's fundamental resource (cards) essentially kicks you out of the game after the first wipe hits. Cards are what let you play the game, period. In normal formats running out of gas is fine, because you either win by turn 5-6 or you stall out and get clobbered a couple minutes later, but in a 60 to 90-minute Commander game running out of gas 20 minutes in means you're watching, rather than playing, the rest of the game. All of mono-W's problems stem from this fundamental fact. Every other color, even red, has a way to refill its hand (and, by extension, get you back in the game) off of one card.
Honestly, it'd probably be fine if they continue printing passable colorless card draw like Mind's Eye and Endless Atlas, but something has to be done. More anti-wipe tech like Teferi's Protection or Faith's Reward would go a long way as well; if you're not able to draw a ton, you can at least evade getting blown out by wipes as badly. Put the cards in the Battlebond/Conspiracy-style product and the Commander product if they're not suitable for Standard due to color pie problems, but they need to get printed.
Personally, I'd like to see some cards along the lines of "draw cards if opponent has a greater number of cards in hand", sort of a draw version of Boreas Charger or Land Tax, as this seems a decent way to pop in some meaningful draw while keeping it at least remotely white. Keep it worse than the B or U options, of course.
Personally, I'd like to see some cards along the lines of "draw cards if opponent has a greater number of cards in hand", sort of a draw version of Boreas Charger or Land Tax, as this seems a decent way to pop in some meaningful draw while keeping it at least remotely white. Keep it worse than the B or U options, of course.
Gift Tax 3W
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep draw cards equal to the difference of the player with the most, then discard cards equal to the difference with the player with the least.
I still believe Faith’s Reward is a good effect for white that could be repurposed in a more Commander-friendly way. Keeping up that mana turn after turn is too high a price for wipe protection.
Seal of Faith’s Reward 3W
Enchantment
0: Sacrifice ~.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, return to the battlefield all permanent cards in your graveyard and exile that left the battlefield this turn.
This should provide board wipe protection that includes exile effects and effects which remove the enchantment itself.
My issue with Dawn of Hope is that it clears its own hurdle, and "card draw tied to lifegain" is something B does, after a fashion,
Draw in black is normally associated with life loss.
I said "after a fashion". Acquire currency, invest currency, acquire more currency. Black's basic philosophy.
And everything is currency to black.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I still believe Faith’s Reward is a good effect for white that could be repurposed in a more Commander-friendly way. Keeping up that mana turn after turn is too high a price for wipe protection.
Seal of Faith’s Reward 3W
Enchantment
0: Sacrifice ~.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, return to the battlefield all permanent cards in your graveyard and exile that left the battlefield this turn.
This should provide board wipe protection that includes exile effects and effects which remove the enchantment itself.
It needs to say that it does not return cards named Seal of Faith’s Reward. Right now it is really broken. I think it would also be more elegant to return eot instead of that sac with no effect. (i.e. you make it sac: at end of turn, return all permanent cards not named Seal of Faith’s Reward put into gy from battlefield this turn - maybe rewritten to use until end of turn)
Private Mod Note
():
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
It needs to say that it does not return cards named Seal of Faith’s Reward. Right now it is really broken. I think it would also be more elegant to return eot instead of that sac with no effect. (i.e. you make it sac: at end of turn, return all permanent cards not named Seal of Faith’s Reward put into gy from battlefield this turn - maybe rewritten to use until end of turn)
Agreed on all counts. I definitely threw out the idea as I woke up in the morning and didn’t think about it returning itself. That’s an obvious fail on my part. I also like your EOT idea. It makes it so you can’t ambush someone with instant-speed permanents in response to something, which wouldn’t feel very white. The protection is the important part and EOT does that nicely.
Look, I get that white is "the worst color" of the 5 in our format for the reasons mentioned, but I do not agree with the stats from the Cokmand Zone, their sample size, and other problems.
As they themselves admitted, one thing they did was evaluate white's expected winnrate against the field. So, when all 4 decks at the table have white in them, white has a 100% win expectancy, or when 3/4 of the deck have white, then it had a 75% chance to win, and in all honesty, those decks held up.
The implication that simply having white in your deck made your deck worse or reduced your chances of winning was silly.
Additionally, the samples they pulled from had a lot of very casual play. That is well and good in a casual fprmat. The problem is that when you try make decisions and take actions to help improve COMPETITIVE BALANCE based on casual data. I do not know about the rest of you, but I cannot count how many times I have seen a deck with white (often a commander I myself run and why I clicked the video) and watch the pilot make highly questionable decisions which eventually cost them the game, and thus hurt white's numbers.
You see, layer on in the episode, they touch on other important points. White makes for a powerful support color. Taking a look at EDHREC's top multi colored cards, it starts with signets (many of which have white) and then putrify. After that, we see a lot of cards with white in the cost:
Anguished unmaking
Merciless Eviction
Supreme Verdict
Mirrari's Wake
Utter End
Boros Charm
Mortify
Aura Shards
Crackling Doom
The list foes on and on. Look for yourself. For each non white card which shows up, there are 2 or 3 cards with white after it.
After all of my rant, my main point is that people are overstating how "bad" white is. At least, that is my opinion, and until a more scientific study with a larger sample size and from more serious players and decks is done.
I wouldn't play mono white, but the only two mono colors I wpuod play are blue and black anyway. Black rewards you for staying mono colored, and mono blue combo is a proven staple... as the best way to beat blue is to be even bluer than the rest of the table. If another blue deck beat you, then you were not blue enough. "Blue harder." White green and red alone are very unappealing and weak against the field.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I still believe Faith’s Reward is a good effect for white that could be repurposed in a more Commander-friendly way. Keeping up that mana turn after turn is too high a price for wipe protection.
Seal of Faith’s Reward 3W
Enchantment
0: Sacrifice ~.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, return to the battlefield all permanent cards in your graveyard and exile that left the battlefield this turn.
This should provide board wipe protection that includes exile effects and effects which remove the enchantment itself.
It's not exactly on topic, but doesn't WOTC plan to execute this already in the form of Magus's each year?
I still believe Faith’s Reward is a good effect for white that could be repurposed in a more Commander-friendly way. Keeping up that mana turn after turn is too high a price for wipe protection.
Seal of Faith’s Reward 3W
Enchantment
0: Sacrifice ~.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, return to the battlefield all permanent cards in your graveyard and exile that left the battlefield this turn.
This should provide board wipe protection that includes exile effects and effects which remove the enchantment itself.
It's not exactly on topic, but doesn't WOTC plan to execute this already in the form of Magus's each year?
Additionally, the samples they pulled from had a lot of very casual play. That is well and good in a casual fprmat. The problem is that when you try make decisions and take actions to help improve COMPETITIVE BALANCE based on casual data. I do not know about the rest of you, but I cannot count how many times I have seen a deck with white (often a commander I myself run and why I clicked the video) and watch the pilot make highly questionable decisions which eventually cost them the game, and thus hurt white's numbers.
I don't think anybody's suggesting that White needs help for the sake of competitive balance, since as you observe, Commander doesn't bother with the idea of competitive balance. White needs help because in a casual format that's all about theme and fun for a lot of people, you should be able to play a mono-color deck of your favorite color without feeling like you're crippled compared to every other mono-color. As things currently stand, it's a lot harder to have fun with mono-W because you run out of gas so quickly and end up more of a passive observer than an active participant in the game.
Red has wheels and impulse draw, green has Harmonize and massive draw off of fatties, black has fantastic repeatable draw, and blue is blue. White is the only mono color that has no good options for refilling or extending its hand, which seriously impacts play experience from a casual perspective.
I’m not sure if it would solve White’s issues, but since the issue of White staying true to color pie has come up I find it disappointing that White’s most powerful piece of the color pie is poorly defended. I am referring to “setting rules.”
Stranglehold is a card that seems like it should be White to me. The first clause is clearly White. I assume the second clause is what made it Red since extra turns are a Blue effect and Red is an enemy color to Blue, but I would’ve preferred a card like this be White based on definining rules for other players and forcing them to “play fair.”
Similarly, I don’t understand the color choice for Leovold, Emissary of Trest. Drawing cards can always be justified as Blue, though basing it on targeting your permanents feels more Green. Either way, the one card per turn is very clearly a White thing and Black seems to have no relation to these abilities at all. Would the card have been banned if it had been WU or GW instead of the three most powerful colors in the format? (P.S. also not sure why Muldrotha, the Gravetide has Blue)
Card advantage a decade ago would have meant your handsize. Card advantage these days include the board state.
TBF to Wizards, they've been augmenting White with very good board states. If anyone noticed already more and more white creatures have a resiliency to them, whether it's through protection/indestructibility or dies/leave triggers.
I think Wizards are identifying that as White's card advantage: resiliency.
In any case, I do feel they need to support White with MORE retribution effects. You Cyclonic Rift? Maybe I can cast a new white spell that returned my board state (Like a Faith's Reward) or a card similar to Fresh Meat. Teferi's Protection was the right step but we need more options.
Imagine your creatures have Murder Investigation tagged on them with an instant spell. We could amp the effect up with angel tokens.
More mono-white instants less sorceries, more flash tagged on mono-white creatures.
I'm Not Drawing Extra Cards, I Swear 3W
Enchantment
Shroud, indestructible
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may search your library for any number of plains cards and put them into your hand, then shuffle your library.
You may play with plains cards in your hand revealed. Those cards do not count towards your hand size.
When you discard a plains card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand.
But I get that you're trying to mitigate discarding cards in some way. I'm pretty sure I can come up with an infinite for this if they return to hand when discarded..
I'm aware of Endless Horizons. I play Endless Horizons. My card was a joke.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
The simple fact is that in a format where three other players are answering any given threat, where weenie aggro cannot rush down and win, and where board wipes are a when, not an if, inability to refill on the game's fundamental resource (cards) essentially kicks you out of the game after the first wipe hits. Cards are what let you play the game, period. In normal formats running out of gas is fine, because you either win by turn 5-6 or you stall out and get clobbered a couple minutes later, but in a 60 to 90-minute Commander game running out of gas 20 minutes in means you're watching, rather than playing, the rest of the game. All of mono-W's problems stem from this fundamental fact. Every other color, even red, has a way to refill its hand (and, by extension, get you back in the game) off of one card.
Honestly, it'd probably be fine if they continue printing passable colorless card draw like Mind's Eye and Endless Atlas, but something has to be done. More anti-wipe tech like Teferi's Protection or Faith's Reward would go a long way as well; if you're not able to draw a ton, you can at least evade getting blown out by wipes as badly. Put the cards in the Battlebond/Conspiracy-style product and the Commander product if they're not suitable for Standard due to color pie problems, but they need to get printed.
Personally, I'd like to see some cards along the lines of "draw cards if opponent has a greater number of cards in hand", sort of a draw version of Boreas Charger or Land Tax, as this seems a decent way to pop in some meaningful draw while keeping it at least remotely white. Keep it worse than the B or U options, of course.
3W
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep draw cards equal to the difference of the player with the most, then discard cards equal to the difference with the player with the least.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
3W
Enchantment
0: Sacrifice ~.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, return to the battlefield all permanent cards in your graveyard and exile that left the battlefield this turn.
This should provide board wipe protection that includes exile effects and effects which remove the enchantment itself.
I said "after a fashion". Acquire currency, invest currency, acquire more currency. Black's basic philosophy.
And everything is currency to black.
On phasing:
It needs to say that it does not return cards named Seal of Faith’s Reward. Right now it is really broken. I think it would also be more elegant to return eot instead of that sac with no effect. (i.e. you make it sac: at end of turn, return all permanent cards not named Seal of Faith’s Reward put into gy from battlefield this turn - maybe rewritten to use until end of turn)
Agreed on all counts. I definitely threw out the idea as I woke up in the morning and didn’t think about it returning itself. That’s an obvious fail on my part. I also like your EOT idea. It makes it so you can’t ambush someone with instant-speed permanents in response to something, which wouldn’t feel very white. The protection is the important part and EOT does that nicely.
Look, I get that white is "the worst color" of the 5 in our format for the reasons mentioned, but I do not agree with the stats from the Cokmand Zone, their sample size, and other problems.
As they themselves admitted, one thing they did was evaluate white's expected winnrate against the field. So, when all 4 decks at the table have white in them, white has a 100% win expectancy, or when 3/4 of the deck have white, then it had a 75% chance to win, and in all honesty, those decks held up.
The implication that simply having white in your deck made your deck worse or reduced your chances of winning was silly.
Additionally, the samples they pulled from had a lot of very casual play. That is well and good in a casual fprmat. The problem is that when you try make decisions and take actions to help improve COMPETITIVE BALANCE based on casual data. I do not know about the rest of you, but I cannot count how many times I have seen a deck with white (often a commander I myself run and why I clicked the video) and watch the pilot make highly questionable decisions which eventually cost them the game, and thus hurt white's numbers.
You see, layer on in the episode, they touch on other important points. White makes for a powerful support color. Taking a look at EDHREC's top multi colored cards, it starts with signets (many of which have white) and then putrify. After that, we see a lot of cards with white in the cost:
Anguished unmaking
Merciless Eviction
Supreme Verdict
Mirrari's Wake
Utter End
Boros Charm
Mortify
Aura Shards
Crackling Doom
The list foes on and on. Look for yourself. For each non white card which shows up, there are 2 or 3 cards with white after it.
After all of my rant, my main point is that people are overstating how "bad" white is. At least, that is my opinion, and until a more scientific study with a larger sample size and from more serious players and decks is done.
I wouldn't play mono white, but the only two mono colors I wpuod play are blue and black anyway. Black rewards you for staying mono colored, and mono blue combo is a proven staple... as the best way to beat blue is to be even bluer than the rest of the table. If another blue deck beat you, then you were not blue enough. "Blue harder." White green and red alone are very unappealing and weak against the field.
It's not exactly on topic, but doesn't WOTC plan to execute this already in the form of Magus's each year?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I don't think anybody's suggesting that White needs help for the sake of competitive balance, since as you observe, Commander doesn't bother with the idea of competitive balance. White needs help because in a casual format that's all about theme and fun for a lot of people, you should be able to play a mono-color deck of your favorite color without feeling like you're crippled compared to every other mono-color. As things currently stand, it's a lot harder to have fun with mono-W because you run out of gas so quickly and end up more of a passive observer than an active participant in the game.
Red has wheels and impulse draw, green has Harmonize and massive draw off of fatties, black has fantastic repeatable draw, and blue is blue. White is the only mono color that has no good options for refilling or extending its hand, which seriously impacts play experience from a casual perspective.
Stranglehold is a card that seems like it should be White to me. The first clause is clearly White. I assume the second clause is what made it Red since extra turns are a Blue effect and Red is an enemy color to Blue, but I would’ve preferred a card like this be White based on definining rules for other players and forcing them to “play fair.”
Similarly, I don’t understand the color choice for Leovold, Emissary of Trest. Drawing cards can always be justified as Blue, though basing it on targeting your permanents feels more Green. Either way, the one card per turn is very clearly a White thing and Black seems to have no relation to these abilities at all. Would the card have been banned if it had been WU or GW instead of the three most powerful colors in the format? (P.S. also not sure why Muldrotha, the Gravetide has Blue)
TBF to Wizards, they've been augmenting White with very good board states. If anyone noticed already more and more white creatures have a resiliency to them, whether it's through protection/indestructibility or dies/leave triggers.
I think Wizards are identifying that as White's card advantage: resiliency.
In any case, I do feel they need to support White with MORE retribution effects. You Cyclonic Rift? Maybe I can cast a new white spell that returned my board state (Like a Faith's Reward) or a card similar to Fresh Meat. Teferi's Protection was the right step but we need more options.
Imagine your creatures have Murder Investigation tagged on them with an instant spell. We could amp the effect up with angel tokens.
More mono-white instants less sorceries, more flash tagged on mono-white creatures.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)