I asked for ideas on what to build for play at my LGS, both here and on Reddit, and it seems like Yisan, Wanderer Bard and Sigarda, Host of Herons are my best options for a deck that can be pretty competitive (75%-80%) on a budget. My current decks perform very poorly. I've won 4 games out of over 100 I've played, both my equipment Voltron with Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith and my Angel midrange with Archangel Avacyn combined. I'm going to be building Sigarda now, and Yisan later. My current budget is $20 per card, but I feel I need to make an exception for Sylvan Library, because it's just that awesome.
Anyway, my idea is an enchantress Voltron deck, focusing primarily on getting auras and maybe a couple equipments on Sigarda to make her big and scary. She's very hard to get rid of to begin with, but giving her indestructible would make her immune to anything other than creature or all permanent wipes that exile (of which there are VERY few. The only I can name are Aligned Hedron Network, Angel of the Dire Hour, Final Judgment, Descend Upon the Sinful, Martyr's Cry, Merciless Eviction, Settle the Wreckage), and Godsend, which exiles one creature, but doesn't target. I've only ever seen Angel of the Dire Hour, Merciless Eviction, and Settle the Wreckage ever actually get played, and Angel of the Dire hour only played by me.
I'd need plenty of cheap ramp to get Sigarda down on turn 3 or 4. There are some enchantments that do this, which is good synergy with an enchantress build.
You also have lots of mana dorks to get the job done (Including rarely played ones like Selvala, Explorer Returned).
Enchantments and possibly a piece of equipment or two can buff, make indestructible, or both. I know that a core of the strategy will be buffing Sigarda. Would instants that buff also be useful? I can always put down Sigarda's Aid to make auras and equipment into combat tricks. Would I want backups in case Sigarda is dealt with, like Kor Spiritdancer or Rabid Wombat, or would that water down the strategy and make it less competitive?
For card draw I have enchantresses, Herald of the Pantheon, and perhaps Selvala can serve as a dork and draw. Do I want to have some non-enchantment sources of ramp and buffs so that one enchantment wipe doesn't completely ruin my day? Is there a more competitive way to run Sigarda than this? Any help is appreciated. Like I said, I'd like to keep it to under $20 per card, making Sylvan Library an exception to this.
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If you're winning so few games, I think the problem is your strategy, not your power level (well, maybe both). Voltron is not a good strategy if you want to win games, in my experience. It's telegraphed and easily dusruptable and slow, and draws proportionally more hate than other strats because it's so telegraphed.
Angel midrange, same deal. Medium sized flyers are not an effective strat.
I'd look towards either control and/or combo, or at least something a bit burstier and higher value.
I thought that Sigarda's protection would make her a lot better. She's really hard to deal with. Would Bruna, Light of Alabaster be a better option then? Put a lot of my deck into my graveyard, get Bruna out, and insta-whack people? I'd have counterspell, a ton of good enchantments and stax support in my colors. That's bursty and combo-ish. Self-mill and crazy recursion in the command zone. Or how would you build Jenara? Honestly Jenara is sounding like my best option for if I REALLY want an angel commander. Would you recommend the Jenara primer? There are tips for making it budget-friendly.
Edit: I've found that even with budget substitutions the deck is still around $600.
Also, Dirk, are saying using an angel as a commander is always a bad idea?
It's a little hard for me to be too sure without knowing your meta better, but in general I think Bruna is probably on the right track. White/blue is, imo, an excellent color combo for control if built and played well - between counters, targeted removal for any permanent type, and board wipes you have all the tools you need to keep the game under control until you can deploy and protect your win condition. Bruna does necessitate a certain number of slots for auras to be effective, but that's probably not too big of a deal. Make sure you have a lot of ways to give her haste too. Jenara, on the other hand, really doesn't need any support, you can just jam her into a draw/go control deck and she'll do just fine (although of course a little protection and equipment wouldn't hurt).
I still think that, on average, trying to win via commander damage is not a very effective way to win frequently - but of course there are exceptions. Bruna can 1-hko people pretty easily, but be careful not to overplay your hand, don't go for the kill until you can protect it. Jenara, with a low cost and inevitability is more of an incidental wincon for the same kind of heavy control deck as my Phelddagrif build (Phelddagrif is much better imo, but jenara is more straightforward and probably doesn't drag out the game as long as Phelddy). Haven't looked at the primer so I can't comment on its accuracy, but I think if you're having trouble with blunt strategies then the way to go is something a little more subtle, and a slower, more political control build is probably your best bet. I tend to find that the more i keep politics in mind as I build and play the higher my win rate is. Even my budget phelddy build has a solid 70%+, I'm assuming Jenara could achieve something similar. Play skill is pretty critical though. Gotta be good at evaluating which threats to answer and which to let lie (or let other people answer).
As far as Sigarda, it's also hard to know without knowing your meta. Maybe it would solve your problems, but imo a fast voltron deck is a really uninteresting way to play the game. You try to build a threat as quickly as possible, and then you either beat people to death with it because they lack a way to interact with it, or they do have a way to interact and you're back to square one. Basically it's just very linear. If it ever actually becomes good, then it's really easy to counter it and play around it by running and holding answers for Sigarda. Basically the same problem as Nazahn, except that hexproof limits the number of answers that are effective - but even if you pull it off, I think it'll be kind of boring. Interactivity is the heart of a good game. As long as you aren't relying on speed to carry the day, you can afford to wait for the right moment to strike - something that I think bruna, with her enormous potential for burst damage, does a lot better. Wait for people to exhaust their answers on other threats, and keep up your own counters to protect her, and go for the win when people aren't prepared for it.
I'd build bruna either as sort of a pseudo-combo control deck, playing the control game until you swing for a hasty lethal against the biggest threat, with answers up for the other players, or build Jenara as a grindier control deck that plays a bit more politically. Bruna is probably easier to make effective, but I think they're both good options.
My meta is one player playing Starke of Rath with theft, which is what made me think Sigarda. We also Grenzo Doomsday, some U/x control, a Phelddagrif deck that's designed simply to piss people off and doesn't appear to have a wincon. I've never seen Kenny pull it off. Lately there have been people coming in and out, and because my groups are at a game store I have to be ready for just about anything. The only people who show up every week are me and the guy with the Starke deck that's always destroying and stealing stuff. So, I see a benefit to playing a deck that either doesn't depend on its commander, or if the commander is hard to kill and steal. Also holding back Bruna until I'm ready and then taking out the Starke player. My problem now is that I really suck at making decks, and now I need one that's really tight and competitive enough for everything but a cEDH table. I'd also like a deck that's a little bit forgiving because I don't play Magic to be stressed out. I'd also very much prefer that there be an angel as my commander. A couple more angels in the deck would be fun, but it's not necessary at all. I also have a budget of $20 per card. I like the idea of playing U/W Bruna, Jenara, or Sigarda, Host of Herons. Tariel doesn't look interesting to me, it seems to me like Atraxa's mana base would be way outside my price range, and mono-white or Boros angels would probably have lots of weaknesses that could only be solved with lots of money.
I have a hard time believing that a starke of rath deck needs "one that's really tight and competitive enough for everything but a cEDH table" to beat it. When you say theft, red doesn't have a lot of permanent steal effects, is he just stealing creatures until end of turn and killing them with starke? If so, obviously some well-timed targeted removal on starke would nullify that strategy pretty easily. And if you're playing Bruna, you could just kill him eot before playing her, so he can't kill her with his activated ability. Sigarda would also be fine, though.
Grenzo doomsday sounds way scarier than starke to me. Maybe you could elaborate? Good grenzo doomsday decks are usually trying to combo kill the table around turn 4. So that seems way more concerning than starke of rath. Although most of those combos are disruptable with a single piece of targeted removal, so it's definitely beatable with a half-decent control deck. Are the Ux control decks stopping Grenzo?
I'm just really confused about this meta that you've got a legit cEDH deck, and Ux control decks (generally strong)...but starke of rath is the deck that you're worried about? Sigarda seems like an easy win vs starke, but I'm just confused why Starke is the major concern here.
When you lose games, how does it generally happen? What is disrupting your strat, and what is the winner using to win?
wildcard vote, but you might try krav+regna partners. They're both strong cards, and you've effectively got twice as many commanders to kill. Plus with cards like tel-jilad stylus you can use them to tutor each other if they die.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
First, to address why I find Starke so dangerous is that because I play the strongest creatures (a medium sized to large angel or my Voltron deck commander loaded up with enough equipment to be a big threat) he tends to target my creatures with theft or destruction. His strategy pretty well counters my strategy of using big creatures to win. He will either destroy creatures with something like Blasphemous Act or Chain Reaction, or use Starke to kill, often getting Starke back with Homeward Path or with a combo where he puts two Starke triggers on the stack, the second one being one of his indestructible permanents (Darksteel Ingot, Darksteel Citadel, etc.), or he will steal something with Act of Treason, Conquering Manticore and other such cards, or sometimes steal everything with Insurrection, then kill a creature or two with Starke, or all of them with a sac outlet, or make the steal permanent with the Bazaar Trader combo, or using a Helm of Possession or Helm of Obedience to just outright permanently steal. Or if he's got a mana doubler out, he can afford to lose some of his lands (which are snow-covered, so he can make Extraplanar Lens only apply to him because he's the only person playing snow lands, and can use Scrying Sheets and Skred, which is usually more than big enough to deal with a huge angel or a Voltron commander before it gains indestructibility or hexproof/shroud/prot red.
Also, it feels really crummy for me to be beaten to death by my own stuff. That feels even worse than just being the first person to die. I've even gone so far as, after playing against his deck once and having him steal the stuff that's critical to my strategy, or if I'm already stressed and not in the mood to play against him, I'll either refuse to play, or refuse to play unless he's playing his Golgari elf deck. He's a nice guy, I doubt he has a vendetta against me, but a lot of games it's him with his Starke deck and me both trying to neutralize each other's strategies, and I'm starting to get hard feelings, even though he's a nice guy otherwise and I'd consider him a good friend.
As for other decks like the Grenzo, he only was able to pull off the Doomsday combo once before everyone figured out that you can't leave Grenzo unmolested or else he runs away with the game. If we see Grenzo, we make sure to hold removal or transformation cards to stop him (Pongify, Lignify, Darksteel Mutation, Beast Within, Humility), or one of the many flavors of counterspell, or else counter the Doomsday. Grenzo dude doesn't come often, and he's a bit more likely to play his other deck now that he knows Grenzo is Public Enemy #1. His Grenzo is also not tuned extremely well, or piloted not exactly right. When he won it was on like... turn 6ish.
With the environment of playing at the local game store, people come and go, so I have to be ready for everything. I just know that Starke will 99% of the time be in the pod. Every once in a while someone comes with a fast combo deck, or even something cEDH worthy, or with MLD, but due to social pressure anything with MLD or that wins faster than, say, turn 6-8ish will get a negative response, and one of us asking, "do you have another deck you can play?" or "do you want to borrow one of my decks?" I think that someone who uses MLD and then reasonably promptly wins would likely be seen better than someone who plays MLD just to reset the game and then durdles.
TL;DR: I care about the Starke deck because it disrupts mine more often than other decks do, and it makes the game unfun and is starting to make me think about why I play EDH in the first place, and makes me feel like the Starke player as well as the rest of the table are picking on me. It's high school all over again.
Folks, do you think that maybe playing Krav + Regna would be the way to go? It seems like lifegain, and making a ton of tokens just to sac them might go under the radar for a bit... oh, she's just gaining life, so let's focus on someone more threatening? Krav gets bigger every time you sac creatures to him, but he doesn't fly or trample or have any other combat keywords. I think I'm liking the idea of them better than Sigarda. I've been wanting to experiment with a lifegain deck. I just don't know if it's the right combination of competitive and seemingly less harmless than what is around.
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Good to see you again! Although sucks to hear you're still struggling.
So, I think there's some good advice here - I'v played Sigarda, host of Herons before, and she can be strong, but she's not what I'd call competitive these days. Voltron is tough, unless you're playing Narset, Enlightened Master's 'library vomit' nonsense. Even then, your meta will hate you, and with good reason. Honestly, she sucks to play against. Voltron kind of is a glass cannon approach - when it works, it'll work. When it doesn't, you don't really have any contingency.
Firstly, what are the conditions of what you're trying to build? You want reasonably strong for a semi-casual environment, right? Are you still committed to the concept of an angel commander? No judgement either way, it's just good to know the limits of what we can suggest.
Secondly, I think a lot of what you might be struggling with is threat assessment and tactical plays as much as having an optimal deck. And I don't mean any offense saying that, it's a pretty common thing. There's a ton of people out there who like to pilot a deck that plays itself, but when the same person plays a deck that requires making optimal choices they find themselves struggling to succeed. It's something I learned in a big way with my three favourite decks - Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Bruna, the Fading Light and Dralnu, Lich Lord - each of them are vulnerable when they're played suboptimally, so it's important to keep sharp and make the right choices for your plays at the right time. Some commanders you can vomit your hand onto the board and overwhelm people, but in general most of the angel commanders are not like that. Frankly, most of the bi-color combinations with white in them are not like that, and neither is mono white. And that's not a bad thing - it keeps the game interesting, challenges you mentally, and means that when you do win, it's a win you can be proud of. I had an interesting conversation about this on my Bruna thread with ISBpathfinder, who runs the same commander and is responsible for the previous Jenara primer. Essentially it boiled down to making your plays count as best you can for yourself, don't overcommit, don't be afraid to hold cards back if the time isn't right.
All that said, I think Krav and Regna could be good - I thought your Archangel Avacyn was good too, but it's a bummer that it's underperforming. I've seen a couple of interesting Krav/Regna builds, but it will depend what specific strategies and win conditions you see in your meta as to what you might choose to include. I don't think Sigarda is what you're looking for personally, and I think you might struggle with Bruna, Light of Alabaster, too.
If Krav/Regna doesn't do it for you, there's a few other recent angels that could be good builds. Lyra Dawnbringer is very strong, and has obvious synergy. And from personal experience, (not blowing my own trumpet, just giving the option) Bruna, the Fading Light is a deck that is really, really hard to keep down - it just keeps coming back. Food for thought, but I think you probably just need to settle on a commander that excites you, and we can help you move it in the direction of a build you're happy with.
Yeah, I am struggling, and didn't want to mention anything because I was afraid I'd hurt Weltkrieg, you, and the other people who've helped me with decks. To be honest, neither of my current decks are fully optimized yet. I'm missing some of the cards we decided on. That is likely a factor. I have been putting my money lately into my Duel Commander deck and have found much more success with that. In Duel Commander I end up at x-0, x-1, and x-0-1 in nearly every tournament I enter. I was having a lot of fun playing burn. I thought I'd found my format. Then, people stopped showing up, and the tournaments on Wednesdays were canceled.
So, I've started playing multiplayer commander again, and my win rate is quite close to 3%. I'm often focused down first, my creatures get killed/ stolen/ stolen and sacrificed or steal made permanent with Bazaar Trader. I find creatures being stolen and being attacked by my own creatures to be kinda demoralizing. There has been more than once that I've been killed by commander damage from my own commander.
The conditions of what I'm trying to build is a deck that can compete in a semi-casual environment (like 75%ish), and one that is resistant to/ has answers for stax and creature theft. I really want to have an angel as a commander, so it seems like what I'm shooting for is building the most competitive budget deck I can with Krav and Regna, or an angel in Boros, Bant, mono white or Selesnya. I feel like mono-white has some glaring weaknesses, though, and Tariel costs a TON of mana, and I think a four color mana base for Atraxa is likely cost-prohibitive. I like the idea of having some sort of deterrent, like good removal, maybe an Aetherflux Reservoir with a ton of life built up. The Starke of Rath deck may not always be the strongest at the table, I just feel like it makes playing larger creatures a lot less fun, so I'd like to shut it down. Honestly, I wish that Justin just plain didn't play it, but it would be unfair of me to ask him that. His deck just makes me not want to play any good creatures, which makes me really sad.
Angels are big creatures with evasion, and often other nice keywords like lifelink, vigilance, and often have good utility abilities. A permanent theft of an angel can also give the person doing it a blocker to handle my other fliers, and crippling to my deck in terms of a lost synergy. Stealing a Voltron commander or killing it is also pretty obviously beneficial to the person doing it. The person who plays the theft deck is nice to me outside of games, but his constant messing with the core plans of my decks is starting to cause hard feelings against him. There have been times where I've refused to play if I see Starke in his command zone. Not playing feels ALMOST as bad as having a good creature stolen before I can get a good board state, and it's starting to feel to me like he may want to ruin my day. Others attack me before I'm threatening and while other people have much better board states. It all comes down to the fact that, correct or not, I feel like I'm being picked on and that people don't want me at the table, or find some perverse joy in repeatedly curbstomping me before I'm even really a threat, so I never really become one. I feel pretty powerless. Having been through what I have in other respects, I don't play Magic to feel powerless.
What I want is a pretty competitive deck (though not a wins on turn 4 or turn 5 type competitive) that doesn't make me always the archenemy at the table, that can be built for less than $20 a card (exceptions of a couple dollars give or take could be made for something like having an Exquisite Blood/Sanguine Bond level combo). I'd VERY strongly prefer that my commander be an angel, and failing that, would prefer female over male. I'm hoping that a strong budget deck with an angel as a commander is doable. Krav/Regna looks like it could have potential. I need to have a think about which one excites me.
Yeah, I am struggling, and didn't want to mention anything because I was afraid I'd hurt Weltkrieg, you, and the other people who've helped me with decks. To be honest, neither of my current decks are fully optimized yet. I'm missing some of the cards we decided on. That is likely a factor. I have been putting my money lately into my Duel Commander deck and have found much more success with that. In Duel Commander I end up at x-0, x-1, and x-0-1 in nearly every tournament I enter. I was having a lot of fun playing burn. I thought I'd found my format. Then, people stopped showing up, and the tournaments on Wednesdays were canceled.
Oh, don't worry about upsetting anyone. If it's not working you're best to own that and try to fix the problem.
So, I've started playing multiplayer commander again, and my win rate is quite close to 3%. I'm often focused down first, my creatures get killed/ stolen/ stolen and sacrificed or steal made permanent with Bazaar Trader. I find creatures being stolen and being attacked by my own creatures to be kinda demoralizing. There has been more than once that I've been killed by commander damage from my own commander
There's a lot of options here. You can play stuff to just grab them back like Brand or Homeward Path - good idea to run this anyway - but what you're going to find really, really handy is sac outlets. Things like Altar of Dementia, Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, High Market and so forth are really clutch when your stuff is being stolen. If it's free, instant speed sacrifice for your benefit or someone else's detriment they'll stop trying. Hell, you could even turn the tables with Helm of Possession. There's blink, too - Eerie Interlude, Eldrazi Displacer, Restoration Angel, Whitemane Lion, Stonecloaker. If theft of your stuff is what's bugging you, these are your best strategies. You can make your stuff hexproof or whatever, but these are a more proactive answer - they let your opponents know that you know what they're up to, you won't allow it and you can turn it to your advantage. Just pillowforting almost challenges people to try and beat your setup, and if it doesn't work, you're in the same boat.
The conditions of what I'm trying to build is a deck that can compete in a semi-casual environment (like 75%ish), and one that is resistant to/ has answers for stax and creature theft. I really want to have an angel as a commander, so it seems like what I'm shooting for is building the most competitive budget deck I can with Krav and Regna, or an angel in Boros, Bant, mono white or Selesnya. I feel like mono-white has some glaring weaknesses, though, and Tariel costs a TON of mana, and I think a four color mana base for Atraxa is likely cost-prohibitive. I like the idea of having some sort of deterrent, like good removal, maybe an Aetherflux Reservoir with a ton of life built up. The Starke of Rath deck may not always be the strongest at the table, I just feel like it makes playing larger creatures a lot less fun, so I'd like to shut it down. Honestly, I wish that Justin just plain didn't play it, but it would be unfair of me to ask him that. His deck just makes me not want to play any good creatures, which makes me really sad.
I mean I think what you're shooting for is achievable with most of the angels you've considered. Sigarda and Bruna maybe not - they tend towards voltron strategies which is sort of all-in. But your existing deck, sure. Krav and Regna, sure. The key is in how you build it and pilot it, not who's at the helm (not so much, anyway). So my best advice is to pick the sort of strategies you want to employ to win, what answers you like best, and go from there. Orzhov I could see being more attrition/swarm oriented with the potential of some fairly obvious combos if you want to run them. Boros you know of, obviously. Bant, I'm not sure - I've never built bant, but Jenara seems a more toolbox build than anything else. I could see it being fun, but I can't see the angel theme carrying through well - whether that matters or not is up to you, of course. Mono white, you're right - it does have some weaknesses that require building around, and speaking for my own build it has been expensive to get to the level it's at right now. But a cheaper build can still be strong. It does require clever plays and a good poker face, though. Atraxa is obviously strong, but if you don't want to be archenemy, don't build her. She's the most played commander right now, and people don't expect to see anything good come of her, much like Kaalia.
So, yeah - have a think about what commanders excite you - narrow it down to 2 or 3, decide on some strategies you want to follow, and refine from there. It sounds like the specific problems you're having are totally able to be turned to your advantage, so establish yourself a starting point and we can help you build from there.
Looking at the commanders for a bit, Meren, Marchesa, and Alesha give me creatures back from my graveyard, Regna, Elendra and Teysa give me tokens, and Savra, Teysa, and Krav give me a sac outlet. And flipped Liliana gives me creatures back, and discard.
Okay, I think I've narrowed it down to Meren, Alesha, or Krav/Regna. And my strategy is Aristocrats (creature sacrifice/graveyard interaction). I see very little if any graveyard hate in my meta, so this seems like a very solid strategy. Something to keep in mind is that I just pulled Assassin's Trophy if I play Meren, and I have a couple Mardu staples if I play Alesha. My budget is $20US per card.. though if I REALLY have to, I'll pay a little more than that for a black board wipe (Like Toxic Deluge or maybe Damnation), so long as I have a card I can use as a replacement until I can afford them. All Is Dust, Nev's Disk and etc are always options too.
I feel like any of these choices would be easy enough on a budget, though there's definitely some that are stronger than others. I've run Savra, Queen of the Golgari before, and as fun as it was she's a little outclassed these days. Meren of Clan Nel Toth is really strong, considering there are very very few ways to interact with experience counters.
There's a really good, really well established primer for Meren here on mtgs. It might be worth having a look at that, I'm pretty sure most of the deck could be built reasonably cheaply. I'm not sure about Alesha or the partners, but once you've set your mind on one deck or another let us know and we can help tune the list up.
What you need to do is go full Stax with this Aristocrats theme. They seem to gang up on the woman anyway, right? Be guilty of the crime they're eager to send you to the gallows for.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Things have gotten better since Carla started showing up. I think they've gotten used to the idea of playing with women, so they've been nice. I think the true problem like people have said is that my deck looks more dangerous than it is. I've been getting less hate, so they either realize I'm not a huge threat, or they've gotten nicer. I think with a slow value building Meren deck and learning politics I think I can win more often. Regardless of winning, Aristocrats looks like a ton of fun. I wonder how the deck got its name, btw. This is the first time I'll be playing a graveyard deck, so it sounds like a nice change and a lot of fun. I can still have big creatures like Kokusho, Massacre Worm, or maybe a Tooth and Nail grabbing Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth. That's fair combat damage, which is likely better than a cheesy combo in regards to how people see me... plus it lets me indulge my inner Timmy.
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Sounds nice. But it does seem they still gang up on you. Otherwise, Starke of Rath wouldn't be a huge deal.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Glad you've settled on a deck, too - Meren is a strong choice, and she's hard to keep out of the game. She can take off quick, and the win really can come out of nowhere.
EDIT: Generally I think it looks like a strong list. There's a couple of things I'd look at different options for:
Some of these are just cute choices. Journey seems slow and expensive to me, and I like rites, but I like sac outlets that don't cost anything to activate more. The other two are just beaters; they're decent but there are probably better options. I've gone over some of the more sac/reanimation lists I run for some options. Some of them might not fit, they're merely suggestions. Playing the list through will tell you what it needs, but here's my two cents nonetheless:
I don't think you need to resort to Avengerhoof, personally. It's a strong combo, but it can lead to bad feels. Tooth and Nail is generally seen as one of the more broken tutors in green, especially when used for these two cards. I don't think you'll need them in your list, but I guess there's always the option of adding it in later if you feel you really need a 'win' button. The other thing is aside from the plant tokens they don't really have a ton of synergy for the deck - sure you can sac the stuff for value, but these pieces otherwise do nothing when they die.
If you chose to put Birthing Pod into the list it might take a little work around in terms of making sure you have creatures at all CMC's 1 through 7ish, but that shouldn't be too hard.
These all seem reasonable additions. I'd maybe do some playtesting and see if the deck does what you want it to before committing a ton of money though, especially to the landbase, as it looks like you've easily a couple hundred dollars just there. See if the deck fits well in your meta first, and more importantly, whether you enjoy playing it - regardless of whether it wins or not.
With regards to that last point, it is important to keep perspective. Outside of beating down a non-competitive meta with savage combo, I tend not to believe anyone who says their win ratio is higher than say 50%. In a 3-4 player game, anything can happen, and if it's the same 4 people every time, it's likely your win% probably won't get higher than 25-33%. For myself I try to use a different yardstick. I look for improvement in the synergy of the deck; is it achieving what I want it to? Is that an effective game plan? Am I enjoying it, and is everyone else? That's what makes a good game to me. It definitely sounds like you've had some crap games and been targeted to some degree, but just remember winning isn't everything - the journey is as important as the destination.
Thanks, that's good advice. The only real reason I care about the win rate is because it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 3%-4%. I had a guy pull me aside and tell me that my decks don't have enough synergy in them. I can't get him to answer why he steals my creatures regardless of if I'm the biggest threat or not. I plan to add Poison-Tip Archer but have no idea what to cut for it.
Back to the Starke player, I play big creatures. He destroys or steals whatever I have that's good, and if he doesn't someone else does. I can't keep beaters on the table for more than a couple turns, It's pretty crummy when I feel like I have to remove one player from the game before I can have any fun, and often he's leaving big bombs like Niv Mizzet (either one), Avenger of Zendikar.. combo pieces like Seedborn Muse, Fauna Shaman, and Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Isochron Scepter, Mimic Vat, and various other creatures and powerful artifacts on the table while he kills/steals my Akroma, Angel of Wrath, either Gisela, Bruna, the Fading Light, or even something pretty useless to him like a Herald of War sometimes, most of the time using a sac outlet to kill the creature after he's done with it. I may remove It that Betrays from my deck because I get really bad feels from theft, and I'd be playing theft with it.
Even if he wasn't the biggest obstacle to me winning, what he's doing still makes me feel terrible. I've considered quitting a couple times, mostly because of him. Part of me is afraid that he's going to steal my beaters in this deck, too. It's a Timmy's worst nightmare. I hope this deck is fun to play, because I can't play angels anymore. Meren isn't even the right colors for them. Sorry I'm harping so much on this. This is just my main issue, and I find I have a much better time when he doesn't come, or when he plays his Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck. How do I tell him that it ruins the game for me? Do I?
Tl;dr: I want to have a few big creatures in my deck, but I'm worried that the same thing will just keep happening again. Wondering how I deal with one deck that, were it out of the local meta, I'd have a lot more fun. Meren looks cool, but I'm not really keen on the art on most black cards. Kokusho is very cool, and is a dragon, so that's fun. I just don't get to play any angels. Maybe I need to upgrade my Archangel Avacyn deck after I make this one. Someone showed me a list that is more stax-oriented.
Thanks, that's good advice. The only real reason I care about the win rate is because it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 3%-4%. I had a guy pull me aside and tell me that my decks don't have enough synergy in them. I can't get him to answer why he steals my creatures regardless of if I'm the biggest threat or not. I plan to add Poison-Tip Archer but have no idea what to cut for it.
I mean it sounds like the guy is running a theft style deck. Which is risky, but fair - it means getting your plays right, stealing the right things and not leaving yourself vulnerable. It could also be really annoying, but the other side of that coin is that because it's your stuff he's using there's a certain air of 'you did this to yourself/can't get mad because it's your stuff'. I get how it'd be annoying though, especially running white, where you don't have a lot of access to big mana, so you need to spend it wisely. As far as Poison-Tip Archer goes, it's a great card. I'd just playtest Meren, see what works and doesn't and go from there. It'll become apparent fairly quickly what works and what doesn't.
Back to the Starke player, I play big creatures. He destroys or steals whatever I have that's good, and if he doesn't someone else does. I can't keep beaters on the table for more than a couple turns, It's pretty crummy when I feel like I have to remove one player from the game before I can have any fun, and often he's leaving big bombs like Niv Mizzet (either one), Avenger of Zendikar.. combo pieces like Seedborn Muse, Fauna Shaman, and Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Isochron Scepter, Mimic Vat, and various other creatures and powerful artifacts on the table while he kills/steals my Akroma, Angel of Wrath, either Gisela, Bruna, the Fading Light, or even something pretty useless to him like a Herald of War sometimes, most of the time using a sac outlet to kill the creature after he's done with it. I may remove It that Betrays from my deck because I get really bad feels from theft, and I'd be playing theft with it.
Leave it in for now. It might help teach him a lesson. With enough instant speed sac outlets and forcing sac for other players you should be able to give him a taste of what he deals out. If it really does feel bad, take it out. But it might get this guy to reassess his targets. It does sound like he might be unfairly targeting you; Scion and Niv are dangerous pieces to leave in play. That being said, you need to teach him your stuff can't be taken. Run sacrifice outlets, always. Make sure you have one in play before you land anything. There's a good reason Ashnod's Altar is considered busted. It goes infinite super easy, its instant speed, and it ramps you into other spells. If he tries to take your stuff, sac it for value, use the mana to retaliate with something else; in short, fire back. Or mill him with Altar of Dementia, ping his stuff or his face with Goblin Bombardment, draw tons with Greater Good, shred his hand with Mind Slash. You've gotta run it if you're going to run big creatures. Either that or someboots. You should run some of both any deck you build really - especially with this guy in your meta.
Even if he wasn't the biggest obstacle to me winning, what he's doing still makes me feel terrible. I've considered quitting a couple times, mostly because of him. Part of me is afraid that he's going to steal my beaters in this deck, too. It's a Timmy's worst nightmare. I hope this deck is fun to play, because I can't play angels anymore. Meren isn't even the right colors for them. Sorry I'm harping so much on this. This is just my main issue, and I find I have a much better time when he doesn't come, or when he plays his Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck. How do I tell him that it ruins the game for me? Do I?
Honestly, Nath is usually seen as pretty damn griefy. Not many people like playing him, so if this makes you feel worse than that, you need to talk to him. Maybe just in terms of why you're being targeted. It could just be his threat assessment sucks, it's not uncommon. Or it could be his threat assessment is put off by beaters. Or it could be he's genuinely targeting you.
Tl;dr: I want to have a few big creatures in my deck, but I'm worried that the same thing will just keep happening again. Wondering how I deal with one deck that, were it out of the local meta, I'd have a lot more fun. Meren looks cool, but I'm not really keen on the art on most black cards. Kokusho is very cool, and is a dragon, so that's fun. I just don't get to play any angels. Maybe I need to upgrade my Archangel Avacyn deck after I make this one. Someone showed me a list that is more stax-oriented.
It sucks being locked out of a game, I totally understand. I'd rather sweep than watch someone play solitaire. There's a few archetypes that lean towards this - superfriends, stax, dedicated combo, MLD. I played a Daretti, Scrap Savant deck that was aiming for Nevinyrral's Disk/Mycosynth Lattice board wipe t4. I straight up told him if I saw Lattice I'd sweep, and when he kept going for it, he got targeted. Some people like playing that way, I don't get it. Interaction is why you play this game.
Don't let the artwork put you off too much - Meren is strong. Some of my favourite pieces of art are black and green - Greater Good, Necropotence, Blood Artist, Animate Dead, Deathreap Ritual, Endless Ranks of the Dead - there can be beauty in the darker side of MTG art. At any rate, even if you only run her as a 'when I want to game hard' deck, it's good to have that sort of deck. It helps your meta reassess you and the way you play, and makes sure they don't underestimate you as an easy beat.
I do think you should stick with Archangel Avacyn though, although I can't remember what it looked like. It's clearly more down your ally in terms of flavour, and I think it would be a decent option for a toolbox build that you can really make your own. Remember that part of doing that is playtesting and tweaking the deck for your meta - it's pretty rare to build a deck and have it immediately perform really well. Usually it takes some time refining the answers you want, the angles you want to leverage, getting the mana fixing and colour fixing right, getting draw levels where you want them, and making sure you have some contingency in case of emergencies.
Theft effects used to bother me a lot. Then I realized they bothered me because I had this hard stance on not using them, thinking them unfun for others.
So whenever someone stole my thing, I would be upset in a sense of "I wouldn't do this to you so why are you doing this to me?"
The solution? I started using theft effects in my decks. And I realized I didn't get as upset when they were used against me.
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Anyway, my idea is an enchantress Voltron deck, focusing primarily on getting auras and maybe a couple equipments on Sigarda to make her big and scary. She's very hard to get rid of to begin with, but giving her indestructible would make her immune to anything other than creature or all permanent wipes that exile (of which there are VERY few. The only I can name are Aligned Hedron Network, Angel of the Dire Hour, Final Judgment, Descend Upon the Sinful, Martyr's Cry, Merciless Eviction, Settle the Wreckage), and Godsend, which exiles one creature, but doesn't target. I've only ever seen Angel of the Dire Hour, Merciless Eviction, and Settle the Wreckage ever actually get played, and Angel of the Dire hour only played by me.
I'd need plenty of cheap ramp to get Sigarda down on turn 3 or 4. There are some enchantments that do this, which is good synergy with an enchantress build.
1 Wild Growth
1 Fertile Ground
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Exploration
1 Burgeoning
1 Weirding Wood
1 Overgrowth
1 Mirari's Wake - Too expensive to grab Sigarda with but still very good
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Cultivate
1 Nature's Lore
1 Broken Bond
1 Sylvan Scrying
Artifact
1 Sol Ring
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Talisman of Unity
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Dowsing Dagger - I own one
1 Fellwar Stone - I own one
1 Chromatic Lantern - I already own two
You also have lots of mana dorks to get the job done (Including rarely played ones like Selvala, Explorer Returned).
Enchantments and possibly a piece of equipment or two can buff, make indestructible, or both. I know that a core of the strategy will be buffing Sigarda. Would instants that buff also be useful? I can always put down Sigarda's Aid to make auras and equipment into combat tricks. Would I want backups in case Sigarda is dealt with, like Kor Spiritdancer or Rabid Wombat, or would that water down the strategy and make it less competitive?
For card draw I have enchantresses, Herald of the Pantheon, and perhaps Selvala can serve as a dork and draw. Do I want to have some non-enchantment sources of ramp and buffs so that one enchantment wipe doesn't completely ruin my day? Is there a more competitive way to run Sigarda than this? Any help is appreciated. Like I said, I'd like to keep it to under $20 per card, making Sylvan Library an exception to this.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Angel midrange, same deal. Medium sized flyers are not an effective strat.
I'd look towards either control and/or combo, or at least something a bit burstier and higher value.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Edit: I've found that even with budget substitutions the deck is still around $600.
Also, Dirk, are saying using an angel as a commander is always a bad idea?
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
I still think that, on average, trying to win via commander damage is not a very effective way to win frequently - but of course there are exceptions. Bruna can 1-hko people pretty easily, but be careful not to overplay your hand, don't go for the kill until you can protect it. Jenara, with a low cost and inevitability is more of an incidental wincon for the same kind of heavy control deck as my Phelddagrif build (Phelddagrif is much better imo, but jenara is more straightforward and probably doesn't drag out the game as long as Phelddy). Haven't looked at the primer so I can't comment on its accuracy, but I think if you're having trouble with blunt strategies then the way to go is something a little more subtle, and a slower, more political control build is probably your best bet. I tend to find that the more i keep politics in mind as I build and play the higher my win rate is. Even my budget phelddy build has a solid 70%+, I'm assuming Jenara could achieve something similar. Play skill is pretty critical though. Gotta be good at evaluating which threats to answer and which to let lie (or let other people answer).
As far as Sigarda, it's also hard to know without knowing your meta. Maybe it would solve your problems, but imo a fast voltron deck is a really uninteresting way to play the game. You try to build a threat as quickly as possible, and then you either beat people to death with it because they lack a way to interact with it, or they do have a way to interact and you're back to square one. Basically it's just very linear. If it ever actually becomes good, then it's really easy to counter it and play around it by running and holding answers for Sigarda. Basically the same problem as Nazahn, except that hexproof limits the number of answers that are effective - but even if you pull it off, I think it'll be kind of boring. Interactivity is the heart of a good game. As long as you aren't relying on speed to carry the day, you can afford to wait for the right moment to strike - something that I think bruna, with her enormous potential for burst damage, does a lot better. Wait for people to exhaust their answers on other threats, and keep up your own counters to protect her, and go for the win when people aren't prepared for it.
I'd build bruna either as sort of a pseudo-combo control deck, playing the control game until you swing for a hasty lethal against the biggest threat, with answers up for the other players, or build Jenara as a grindier control deck that plays a bit more politically. Bruna is probably easier to make effective, but I think they're both good options.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Grenzo doomsday sounds way scarier than starke to me. Maybe you could elaborate? Good grenzo doomsday decks are usually trying to combo kill the table around turn 4. So that seems way more concerning than starke of rath. Although most of those combos are disruptable with a single piece of targeted removal, so it's definitely beatable with a half-decent control deck. Are the Ux control decks stopping Grenzo?
I'm just really confused about this meta that you've got a legit cEDH deck, and Ux control decks (generally strong)...but starke of rath is the deck that you're worried about? Sigarda seems like an easy win vs starke, but I'm just confused why Starke is the major concern here.
When you lose games, how does it generally happen? What is disrupting your strat, and what is the winner using to win?
wildcard vote, but you might try krav+regna partners. They're both strong cards, and you've effectively got twice as many commanders to kill. Plus with cards like tel-jilad stylus you can use them to tutor each other if they die.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
On phasing:
Also, it feels really crummy for me to be beaten to death by my own stuff. That feels even worse than just being the first person to die. I've even gone so far as, after playing against his deck once and having him steal the stuff that's critical to my strategy, or if I'm already stressed and not in the mood to play against him, I'll either refuse to play, or refuse to play unless he's playing his Golgari elf deck. He's a nice guy, I doubt he has a vendetta against me, but a lot of games it's him with his Starke deck and me both trying to neutralize each other's strategies, and I'm starting to get hard feelings, even though he's a nice guy otherwise and I'd consider him a good friend.
As for other decks like the Grenzo, he only was able to pull off the Doomsday combo once before everyone figured out that you can't leave Grenzo unmolested or else he runs away with the game. If we see Grenzo, we make sure to hold removal or transformation cards to stop him (Pongify, Lignify, Darksteel Mutation, Beast Within, Humility), or one of the many flavors of counterspell, or else counter the Doomsday. Grenzo dude doesn't come often, and he's a bit more likely to play his other deck now that he knows Grenzo is Public Enemy #1. His Grenzo is also not tuned extremely well, or piloted not exactly right. When he won it was on like... turn 6ish.
With the environment of playing at the local game store, people come and go, so I have to be ready for everything. I just know that Starke will 99% of the time be in the pod. Every once in a while someone comes with a fast combo deck, or even something cEDH worthy, or with MLD, but due to social pressure anything with MLD or that wins faster than, say, turn 6-8ish will get a negative response, and one of us asking, "do you have another deck you can play?" or "do you want to borrow one of my decks?" I think that someone who uses MLD and then reasonably promptly wins would likely be seen better than someone who plays MLD just to reset the game and then durdles.
TL;DR: I care about the Starke deck because it disrupts mine more often than other decks do, and it makes the game unfun and is starting to make me think about why I play EDH in the first place, and makes me feel like the Starke player as well as the rest of the table are picking on me. It's high school all over again.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
So, I think there's some good advice here - I'v played Sigarda, host of Herons before, and she can be strong, but she's not what I'd call competitive these days. Voltron is tough, unless you're playing Narset, Enlightened Master's 'library vomit' nonsense. Even then, your meta will hate you, and with good reason. Honestly, she sucks to play against. Voltron kind of is a glass cannon approach - when it works, it'll work. When it doesn't, you don't really have any contingency.
Firstly, what are the conditions of what you're trying to build? You want reasonably strong for a semi-casual environment, right? Are you still committed to the concept of an angel commander? No judgement either way, it's just good to know the limits of what we can suggest.
Secondly, I think a lot of what you might be struggling with is threat assessment and tactical plays as much as having an optimal deck. And I don't mean any offense saying that, it's a pretty common thing. There's a ton of people out there who like to pilot a deck that plays itself, but when the same person plays a deck that requires making optimal choices they find themselves struggling to succeed. It's something I learned in a big way with my three favourite decks - Nissa, Vastwood Seer, Bruna, the Fading Light and Dralnu, Lich Lord - each of them are vulnerable when they're played suboptimally, so it's important to keep sharp and make the right choices for your plays at the right time. Some commanders you can vomit your hand onto the board and overwhelm people, but in general most of the angel commanders are not like that. Frankly, most of the bi-color combinations with white in them are not like that, and neither is mono white. And that's not a bad thing - it keeps the game interesting, challenges you mentally, and means that when you do win, it's a win you can be proud of. I had an interesting conversation about this on my Bruna thread with ISBpathfinder, who runs the same commander and is responsible for the previous Jenara primer. Essentially it boiled down to making your plays count as best you can for yourself, don't overcommit, don't be afraid to hold cards back if the time isn't right.
All that said, I think Krav and Regna could be good - I thought your Archangel Avacyn was good too, but it's a bummer that it's underperforming. I've seen a couple of interesting Krav/Regna builds, but it will depend what specific strategies and win conditions you see in your meta as to what you might choose to include. I don't think Sigarda is what you're looking for personally, and I think you might struggle with Bruna, Light of Alabaster, too.
If Krav/Regna doesn't do it for you, there's a few other recent angels that could be good builds. Lyra Dawnbringer is very strong, and has obvious synergy. And from personal experience, (not blowing my own trumpet, just giving the option) Bruna, the Fading Light is a deck that is really, really hard to keep down - it just keeps coming back. Food for thought, but I think you probably just need to settle on a commander that excites you, and we can help you move it in the direction of a build you're happy with.
So, I've started playing multiplayer commander again, and my win rate is quite close to 3%. I'm often focused down first, my creatures get killed/ stolen/ stolen and sacrificed or steal made permanent with Bazaar Trader. I find creatures being stolen and being attacked by my own creatures to be kinda demoralizing. There has been more than once that I've been killed by commander damage from my own commander.
The conditions of what I'm trying to build is a deck that can compete in a semi-casual environment (like 75%ish), and one that is resistant to/ has answers for stax and creature theft. I really want to have an angel as a commander, so it seems like what I'm shooting for is building the most competitive budget deck I can with Krav and Regna, or an angel in Boros, Bant, mono white or Selesnya. I feel like mono-white has some glaring weaknesses, though, and Tariel costs a TON of mana, and I think a four color mana base for Atraxa is likely cost-prohibitive. I like the idea of having some sort of deterrent, like good removal, maybe an Aetherflux Reservoir with a ton of life built up. The Starke of Rath deck may not always be the strongest at the table, I just feel like it makes playing larger creatures a lot less fun, so I'd like to shut it down. Honestly, I wish that Justin just plain didn't play it, but it would be unfair of me to ask him that. His deck just makes me not want to play any good creatures, which makes me really sad.
Angels are big creatures with evasion, and often other nice keywords like lifelink, vigilance, and often have good utility abilities. A permanent theft of an angel can also give the person doing it a blocker to handle my other fliers, and crippling to my deck in terms of a lost synergy. Stealing a Voltron commander or killing it is also pretty obviously beneficial to the person doing it. The person who plays the theft deck is nice to me outside of games, but his constant messing with the core plans of my decks is starting to cause hard feelings against him. There have been times where I've refused to play if I see Starke in his command zone. Not playing feels ALMOST as bad as having a good creature stolen before I can get a good board state, and it's starting to feel to me like he may want to ruin my day. Others attack me before I'm threatening and while other people have much better board states. It all comes down to the fact that, correct or not, I feel like I'm being picked on and that people don't want me at the table, or find some perverse joy in repeatedly curbstomping me before I'm even really a threat, so I never really become one. I feel pretty powerless. Having been through what I have in other respects, I don't play Magic to feel powerless.
What I want is a pretty competitive deck (though not a wins on turn 4 or turn 5 type competitive) that doesn't make me always the archenemy at the table, that can be built for less than $20 a card (exceptions of a couple dollars give or take could be made for something like having an Exquisite Blood/Sanguine Bond level combo). I'd VERY strongly prefer that my commander be an angel, and failing that, would prefer female over male. I'm hoping that a strong budget deck with an angel as a commander is doable. Krav/Regna looks like it could have potential. I need to have a think about which one excites me.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Oh, don't worry about upsetting anyone. If it's not working you're best to own that and try to fix the problem.
There's a lot of options here. You can play stuff to just grab them back like Brand or Homeward Path - good idea to run this anyway - but what you're going to find really, really handy is sac outlets. Things like Altar of Dementia, Ashnod's Altar, Goblin Bombardment, High Market and so forth are really clutch when your stuff is being stolen. If it's free, instant speed sacrifice for your benefit or someone else's detriment they'll stop trying. Hell, you could even turn the tables with Helm of Possession. There's blink, too - Eerie Interlude, Eldrazi Displacer, Restoration Angel, Whitemane Lion, Stonecloaker. If theft of your stuff is what's bugging you, these are your best strategies. You can make your stuff hexproof or whatever, but these are a more proactive answer - they let your opponents know that you know what they're up to, you won't allow it and you can turn it to your advantage. Just pillowforting almost challenges people to try and beat your setup, and if it doesn't work, you're in the same boat.
I mean I think what you're shooting for is achievable with most of the angels you've considered. Sigarda and Bruna maybe not - they tend towards voltron strategies which is sort of all-in. But your existing deck, sure. Krav and Regna, sure. The key is in how you build it and pilot it, not who's at the helm (not so much, anyway). So my best advice is to pick the sort of strategies you want to employ to win, what answers you like best, and go from there. Orzhov I could see being more attrition/swarm oriented with the potential of some fairly obvious combos if you want to run them. Boros you know of, obviously. Bant, I'm not sure - I've never built bant, but Jenara seems a more toolbox build than anything else. I could see it being fun, but I can't see the angel theme carrying through well - whether that matters or not is up to you, of course. Mono white, you're right - it does have some weaknesses that require building around, and speaking for my own build it has been expensive to get to the level it's at right now. But a cheaper build can still be strong. It does require clever plays and a good poker face, though. Atraxa is obviously strong, but if you don't want to be archenemy, don't build her. She's the most played commander right now, and people don't expect to see anything good come of her, much like Kaalia.
So, yeah - have a think about what commanders excite you - narrow it down to 2 or 3, decide on some strategies you want to follow, and refine from there. It sounds like the specific problems you're having are totally able to be turned to your advantage, so establish yourself a starting point and we can help you build from there.
Looking at the commanders for a bit, Meren, Marchesa, and Alesha give me creatures back from my graveyard, Regna, Elendra and Teysa give me tokens, and Savra, Teysa, and Krav give me a sac outlet. And flipped Liliana gives me creatures back, and discard.
Okay, I think I've narrowed it down to Meren, Alesha, or Krav/Regna. And my strategy is Aristocrats (creature sacrifice/graveyard interaction). I see very little if any graveyard hate in my meta, so this seems like a very solid strategy. Something to keep in mind is that I just pulled Assassin's Trophy if I play Meren, and I have a couple Mardu staples if I play Alesha. My budget is $20US per card.. though if I REALLY have to, I'll pay a little more than that for a black board wipe (Like Toxic Deluge or maybe Damnation), so long as I have a card I can use as a replacement until I can afford them. All Is Dust, Nev's Disk and etc are always options too.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
There's a really good, really well established primer for Meren here on mtgs. It might be worth having a look at that, I'm pretty sure most of the deck could be built reasonably cheaply. I'm not sure about Alesha or the partners, but once you've set your mind on one deck or another let us know and we can help tune the list up.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
On phasing:
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
On phasing:
Pretty sure it was from Innistrad standard - Blood Artist and Falkenrath Aristocrat became a solid bleeder strategy, and then Cartel Aristocrat may well have been around at the same time.
Glad you've settled on a deck, too - Meren is a strong choice, and she's hard to keep out of the game. She can take off quick, and the win really can come out of nowhere.
EDIT: Generally I think it looks like a strong list. There's a couple of things I'd look at different options for:
Penumbra Wurm
Vulturous Zombie
Journey to Eternity
Vampiric Rites
Some of these are just cute choices. Journey seems slow and expensive to me, and I like rites, but I like sac outlets that don't cost anything to activate more. The other two are just beaters; they're decent but there are probably better options. I've gone over some of the more sac/reanimation lists I run for some options. Some of them might not fit, they're merely suggestions. Playing the list through will tell you what it needs, but here's my two cents nonetheless:
Woodfall Primus
Champion of Lambholt
Living Death
Grave Titan
Viscera Seer
Smothering Abomination
Birthing Pod
I don't think you need to resort to Avengerhoof, personally. It's a strong combo, but it can lead to bad feels. Tooth and Nail is generally seen as one of the more broken tutors in green, especially when used for these two cards. I don't think you'll need them in your list, but I guess there's always the option of adding it in later if you feel you really need a 'win' button. The other thing is aside from the plant tokens they don't really have a ton of synergy for the deck - sure you can sac the stuff for value, but these pieces otherwise do nothing when they die.
If you chose to put Birthing Pod into the list it might take a little work around in terms of making sure you have creatures at all CMC's 1 through 7ish, but that shouldn't be too hard.
If you have an Assassin's Trophy and Overgrown Tomb, they would be super decent adds.
1 Grave Titan
1 Smothering Abomination
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Golgari Locket
1 Living Death
1 Penumbra Worm
1 Vulturous Zombie
1 Putrefy
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Journey to Eternity
Once I have the funds, I will change the lands too for more optimal ones, replacing a few at a time:
1 Overgrown Temple
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Woodland Cemetary
1 Hissing Quagmire
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Temple of Malady
1 Twilight Mire
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
Other Mana
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Strip Mine
1 Homeward Path
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Grim Backwoods
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
With regards to that last point, it is important to keep perspective. Outside of beating down a non-competitive meta with savage combo, I tend not to believe anyone who says their win ratio is higher than say 50%. In a 3-4 player game, anything can happen, and if it's the same 4 people every time, it's likely your win% probably won't get higher than 25-33%. For myself I try to use a different yardstick. I look for improvement in the synergy of the deck; is it achieving what I want it to? Is that an effective game plan? Am I enjoying it, and is everyone else? That's what makes a good game to me. It definitely sounds like you've had some crap games and been targeted to some degree, but just remember winning isn't everything - the journey is as important as the destination.
Back to the Starke player, I play big creatures. He destroys or steals whatever I have that's good, and if he doesn't someone else does. I can't keep beaters on the table for more than a couple turns, It's pretty crummy when I feel like I have to remove one player from the game before I can have any fun, and often he's leaving big bombs like Niv Mizzet (either one), Avenger of Zendikar.. combo pieces like Seedborn Muse, Fauna Shaman, and Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Isochron Scepter, Mimic Vat, and various other creatures and powerful artifacts on the table while he kills/steals my Akroma, Angel of Wrath, either Gisela, Bruna, the Fading Light, or even something pretty useless to him like a Herald of War sometimes, most of the time using a sac outlet to kill the creature after he's done with it. I may remove It that Betrays from my deck because I get really bad feels from theft, and I'd be playing theft with it.
Even if he wasn't the biggest obstacle to me winning, what he's doing still makes me feel terrible. I've considered quitting a couple times, mostly because of him. Part of me is afraid that he's going to steal my beaters in this deck, too. It's a Timmy's worst nightmare. I hope this deck is fun to play, because I can't play angels anymore. Meren isn't even the right colors for them. Sorry I'm harping so much on this. This is just my main issue, and I find I have a much better time when he doesn't come, or when he plays his Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck. How do I tell him that it ruins the game for me? Do I?
Tl;dr: I want to have a few big creatures in my deck, but I'm worried that the same thing will just keep happening again. Wondering how I deal with one deck that, were it out of the local meta, I'd have a lot more fun. Meren looks cool, but I'm not really keen on the art on most black cards. Kokusho is very cool, and is a dragon, so that's fun. I just don't get to play any angels. Maybe I need to upgrade my Archangel Avacyn deck after I make this one. Someone showed me a list that is more stax-oriented.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
I mean it sounds like the guy is running a theft style deck. Which is risky, but fair - it means getting your plays right, stealing the right things and not leaving yourself vulnerable. It could also be really annoying, but the other side of that coin is that because it's your stuff he's using there's a certain air of 'you did this to yourself/can't get mad because it's your stuff'. I get how it'd be annoying though, especially running white, where you don't have a lot of access to big mana, so you need to spend it wisely. As far as Poison-Tip Archer goes, it's a great card. I'd just playtest Meren, see what works and doesn't and go from there. It'll become apparent fairly quickly what works and what doesn't.
Leave it in for now. It might help teach him a lesson. With enough instant speed sac outlets and forcing sac for other players you should be able to give him a taste of what he deals out. If it really does feel bad, take it out. But it might get this guy to reassess his targets. It does sound like he might be unfairly targeting you; Scion and Niv are dangerous pieces to leave in play. That being said, you need to teach him your stuff can't be taken. Run sacrifice outlets, always. Make sure you have one in play before you land anything. There's a good reason Ashnod's Altar is considered busted. It goes infinite super easy, its instant speed, and it ramps you into other spells. If he tries to take your stuff, sac it for value, use the mana to retaliate with something else; in short, fire back. Or mill him with Altar of Dementia, ping his stuff or his face with Goblin Bombardment, draw tons with Greater Good, shred his hand with Mind Slash. You've gotta run it if you're going to run big creatures. Either that or some boots. You should run some of both any deck you build really - especially with this guy in your meta.
Honestly, Nath is usually seen as pretty damn griefy. Not many people like playing him, so if this makes you feel worse than that, you need to talk to him. Maybe just in terms of why you're being targeted. It could just be his threat assessment sucks, it's not uncommon. Or it could be his threat assessment is put off by beaters. Or it could be he's genuinely targeting you.
It sucks being locked out of a game, I totally understand. I'd rather sweep than watch someone play solitaire. There's a few archetypes that lean towards this - superfriends, stax, dedicated combo, MLD. I played a Daretti, Scrap Savant deck that was aiming for Nevinyrral's Disk/Mycosynth Lattice board wipe t4. I straight up told him if I saw Lattice I'd sweep, and when he kept going for it, he got targeted. Some people like playing that way, I don't get it. Interaction is why you play this game.
Don't let the artwork put you off too much - Meren is strong. Some of my favourite pieces of art are black and green - Greater Good, Necropotence, Blood Artist, Animate Dead, Deathreap Ritual, Endless Ranks of the Dead - there can be beauty in the darker side of MTG art. At any rate, even if you only run her as a 'when I want to game hard' deck, it's good to have that sort of deck. It helps your meta reassess you and the way you play, and makes sure they don't underestimate you as an easy beat.
I do think you should stick with Archangel Avacyn though, although I can't remember what it looked like. It's clearly more down your ally in terms of flavour, and I think it would be a decent option for a toolbox build that you can really make your own. Remember that part of doing that is playtesting and tweaking the deck for your meta - it's pretty rare to build a deck and have it immediately perform really well. Usually it takes some time refining the answers you want, the angles you want to leverage, getting the mana fixing and colour fixing right, getting draw levels where you want them, and making sure you have some contingency in case of emergencies.
So whenever someone stole my thing, I would be upset in a sense of "I wouldn't do this to you so why are you doing this to me?"
The solution? I started using theft effects in my decks. And I realized I didn't get as upset when they were used against me.