I often draw a ton off of this card. It is a decent mana dork, and played early it is amazing. Late game, it is no worse than any other dork. I have never seen it in anyone else's deck. Why don't people play it?
There are two major reasons i'm not running it in any deck - yet. For one that double G can be problematic for any 3C and up deck or 2C decks during the first few turns. In addition to that early game factor, i don't think it's great enough later on usually. A late game dork isn't great anyhow, but if i have one in hand it better make more/colorful mana or is a 1 drop.
On a side note, it isn't an elf, why i'd rather play Beast Whisperer in my Ezuri, Renegade Leader deck.
Because the effect is great (on a land with no mana activation and on turn one when the odds of having 7 cards in hand EOT is highest), but delaying by two turns and two mana makes it about ×100 worse.
It's not great at making mana, not great at drawig cards if you aren't already flush with them, and it dies to everything that kills stuff without exception. Your question is a lot like me asking "Why do I never see crash of rhinos as a win con, even though that overcosted 8/4 hunk of man used to stomp my KT group in 6th grade?" Well, because eldrazi exist now and you've vastly overestimated your success with confirmation bias and are now trying to extrapolate your experience as to be universal.
Tldr; because library of Alexandria is good, but the magus is bad.
Public Mod Note
(ISBPathfinder):
Trolling warning issued. Please watch the tone of your post and refrain from baiting others.
"Why do I never see crash of rhinos as a win con, even though that overcosted 8/4 hunk of man used to stomp my KT group in 6th grade?"
Wow. Both patronizing and wrong. This comparison is idiotic, to the point of not even deserving a real response.
My meta runs from very tuned but still casual to cEDH. I win more games than are my fair share. Your comment presumes I don't know how to play, and that I have not evolved my play since I was 12, or that no one I play with is any good. Check your ego, treat others with respect, and take a moment to think before you speak.
GG is somewhat of a hurdle, but for effects that can draw a card, that is not at all the worst. Phyrexian Arena is played all the time, and requires BB, and has a CMC of 3 instead of 2. Dark Confidant is only really common in cEDH circles, but this is close to comparable. It is not that hard to keep 7 cards in hand, especially early game, especially when you are drawing 2 cards per turn, and especially when you have a commander to play that is outside your hand. Any extra card draw, and you have a consistent engine that is a single card.
As a mana dork, many people run plenty of 2 CMC ramp, and while it produces colorless mana, so do a lot of ramp that people play. Mind Stone is a staple, and while not usually in green, colorless dorks are run pretty often, as Boreal Druid is also a staple. In more competitive meta than most battlecruiser style metas, bringing your curve down often results in more wins, and the ability to chump block, attack for even chip damage, ramp when needed, and draw cards, that is what wins games.
It is not flashy, but it works well, and fills a lot of roles. I think it is way overlooked, and I think that those people who overlook it are likely to get more consistently beaten by people who are willing to consider it in the right deck. Those decks are probably most decks that run manna dorks. I am surprised how little people appreciate it.
Public Mod Note
(ISBPathfinder):
Warning for flaming. Please refrain from personal attacks.
Paying GG for a Manakin is a terrible rate. Comparatively, if I want to make mana, there's about a zillion other cards I'd play before Magus of the Library. As such, the card's only redeeming quality is the fact that it can draw cards, but the Magus isn't particularly great at doing that either, so if you're playing the card for that reason it's frequently going to disappoint you as well. Having to finagle your hand so that you always have exactly seven cards in it at some point during your turn is fairly difficult for most decks to do without also sacrificing some kind of significant tempo. And sure, the option always exists for you to make mana in the likely event that you can't draw a card with the Magus (or don't want to), but we've already established how bad this card is at making mana, so the Magus better be damn good at drawing cards to make up for it, but it isn't. It's a fragile, backbreaking Phyrexian Arena at best.
If what I want is card draw, I'm going to play cost-effective card draw. If what I want is mana ramp, I'm going to play cost-effective mana ramp. Magus of the Library is neither, and its faux versatility is deserving of little respect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I don't have Magus of the Library in a deck with Paradox Engine, but it would be stupidly good in any deck with the Engine that runs green. Paradox Engine needs rocks or dorks and some way to draw cards that is untappable or repeatable with the Engine. Magus of the Library is both. Many Paradox Engine decks run as many dorks as they can get their hands on. I have never seen one run Magus of the Library.
And to counter the argument about how hard it is to get GG, any deck that wants to run multiple dorks has no problem getting GG. Most dorks get you G, and they take G to cast. You should have GG without much trouble. Some 3 or 4 color decks will not want to run it, but they sometimes don't want Llanowar Elves either. In a deck that wants dorks, especially if it wants a lot of them, Magus of the Library is not hard to run, and has very little down side compared to any other dork.
I think that the condition of Library's card draw ability, when combined with the GG cost requirements, is enough to rule this card out for most decks.
The thing with Library of Alexandria is that you can just put it down T1 and start drawing cards, since in that phase of the game having 7 cards in hand is a given. That's one of the reasons it's banned in Multiplayer commander.
However, when you start to think about what your typical green deck will be doing for its first two turns, the answer is usually play a ton of ramp spells. Hand size on turn 2-3 is usually around 5 cards, unless you're getting mana or color screwed. Having considered that, it's easier to see why this card's draw conditions are too narrow for most green decks, in comparison to stuff like Colossal Majesty, Descendant's Pass, and Elemental Bond.
Having said that, there are decks that use it quite strongly, usually mono green decks with unusual game plans. Yeva has been mentioned, and I'll throw in Nissa, Vastwood Seer. Her ETB and +1 abilities give you a card, which makes it easier to draw from the Magus.
I don't think this card sucks as much as some do, but I also don't think it's that stellar in that many decks. There are any number of better mana dorks for most purposes, and if I am going to dedicate a card to card draw, I want it to either require a lot fewer hoops to jump through, or to immediately draw me a lot more cards. Beast Whisperer, Sylvan Library, Lifecrafter's Bestiary and any number of cards that draw based on having creatures or doing damage all seem better choices in a vacuum, and that's without stepping outside monogreeen. Toss in black or blue and I can't see this card offering much value at all, even in Paradox Engine builds. Most of the time there are just too many choices that are better at each of the two things it does to justify playing it just because it does a fair job with both things.
Not saying it's not playable at all, but it strikes me as pretty niche, albeit probably very good in some of those niches, as already noted.
I don't have Magus of the Library in a deck with Paradox Engine, but it would be stupidly good in any deck with the Engine that runs green. Paradox Engine needs rocks or dorks and some way to draw cards that is untappable or repeatable with the Engine. Magus of the Library is both. Many Paradox Engine decks run as many dorks as they can get their hands on. I have never seen one run Magus of the Library.
This is the synergy argument. That's fine. There will always be cards that, no matter how lousy, become much more valuable given the right context. Deceiver Exarch is a perfect example. By itself, Deceiver Exarch isn't that great of a card. It's just okay-ish. When paired with Splinter Twin though, its worth obviously skyrockets. I'm not looking at Magus of the Library from this narrow perspective though. I'm evaluating this card based upon how effective it would be for most Commander decks that could include it. There is no doubt in my mind that Magus of the Library pairs well with Paradox Engine (as do many cards).
And to counter the argument about how hard it is to get GG, any deck that wants to run multiple dorks has no problem getting GG. Most dorks get you G, and they take G to cast. You should have GG without much trouble. Some 3 or 4 color decks will not want to run it, but they sometimes don't want Llanowar Elves either. In a deck that wants dorks, especially if it wants a lot of them, Magus of the Library is not hard to run, and has very little down side compared to any other dork.
I think you've misunderstood me. When I said that GG was a terrible rate for a Manakin, I wasn't saying that the card was prohibitively difficult to cast (although the fact that the Magus is more difficult to cast shouldn't just be brushed aside either). What I was saying was that the opportunity cost of playing the Magus is high. Consider, for the same amount of mana, you could instead play...
1.) Any one-drop that taps to produce mana (such as Llanowar Elves).
2.) Any two-drop that can produce mana immediately (such as Mind Stone or Nature's Lore).
3.) Any two-drop that produces colored mana, including mana of any color (such as Sylvan Caryatid or Fertile Ground).
4.) Any two-drop that can potentially produce more than one mana (such as Bloom Tender or Priest of Titania).
In this regard, Magus of the Library sucks at making mana. You could do better on literally any axis, so if you're looking at this card as something that often makes mana but occasionally draws cards, I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. For Magus of the Library to be worth considering, it needs to be something that often draws cards but occasionally makes mana, and that's a much more difficult prospect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
3) Drumhunter is just better. The hoop is much easier to meet, and you can tap for mana and draw. Actually, I don't even see Drumhunter that often, but there you go.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So this is very interesting. Many people have made arguments against it, but I still think the value of the card has been overlooked.
Every EDH deck needs to have potential cards evaluated with the following ideas in mind:
1. Power of the card vs the cost compared to the expected power per cost of alternate cards. As was said above, the opportunity cost.
2. Versatility. The more the card does, the better.
3. Synergy. This has been downplayed above, but is everything in most really good decks.
4. Consistency and duplication of effect. Tutors are good, but so are Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn Elves together.
5. Monetary cost. This matters for most people.
I am not saying that Magus of the Library is the best dork. It is clearly not. Most 1 cmc dorks are better, most produce colored mana, and most have an easier casting cost. I am not saying that it is the best card draw. It will never be Sylvan Library, and often won't keep pace with many blue card draw, and it is definitely not Necropotence. That is not the point. Good decks have many ramp spells and many card draw spells, and many spells that perform multiple functions, and they try to do it with cards that synergize with the other cards that you want to play. There are also many ways to play each color, and so there should be decks that are better or worse at taking advantage of each card. Every deck plays some second string cards that happen to work well for it so that it can fulfill all the necessary functions of the deck.
For Magus of the Library:
1. Power for the cost - Even conditional card draw at a CMC 2 is good. No, it isn't Sylvan Library, but it pairs really well with it. And you should play as many card draw as you can without diluting the other functions of the deck, recognizing prioritizing card draw is pretty important. Also, it is not Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise. But many decks would like a lot of those effects. Ten is not at all unreasonable. This is another one, and is a reasonable alternative to many of those already mentioned, even if very slightly weaker when analyzed in a vaccuum.
2. Versatility - Two essential functions of a deck are ramp and card draw. These are potentially the most powerful effects. This does both. I won't claim that this is Thrasios, but that guy is a powerful commander simply for providing the same two effects, and nothing else.
3. Synergy - Many green decks run dorks, and many run things to synergize with dorks. Seedborn Muse becomes a beast with Magus of the Library, especially in a control shell. Same with the previously mentioned Paradox Engine, as well as things like Quest for Renewal, and so much better than things like Sylvan Caryatid and Drumhunter. Both Engine and Quest are run in a ton of decks, and make Magus crazy. Many decks run other green card draw. Sylvan Library makes this so much better, since you are likely to keep closer to 7 cards in hand.
4. Consistency and duplication - Mane decks want more than 4-5 dorks. This is another one.
5. Monetary cost - This is pennies. Birds is much more, Sylvan Library is much more.
With all this in mind, I can easily see how this is not the right card for many decks. It is also a very good card for many decks, and can slot in without any extra build around to make it work well. Yes, some greed decks dump their hands by turn 3. Not all do. Yes, some green containing decks absolutely need every ramp effect to give you colored mana. Not all do. Not every green deck needs ramp to be colored, and not every green containing deck makes great use of the other options for card draw. My selesnya control, my golgari control, my mono-green control, all love this card.
This card is absolutely under rated. The reactions to this subject pretty well prove it. People suggesting that the best cards in the format prove that this is terrible are silly. People suggesting that Zhur-Taa Druid and Drumhunter prove that it is terrible are way off. Any anyone who thinks that Library of Alexandria is not really that good have no idea. It is banned for a reason. People should play Magus of the Library more. I am astounded that they don't.
The card is really quite bad, and appropriately rated by the community. It's an absolutely awful mana dork stapled to a very situational draw spell. Library is good because it can come down early enough to reliably draw you a couple cards. Magus cannot do that unless you're twiddling your thumbs and not unloading your hand, and also has the added fragility of being a creature.
A good deck would always rather have a Llanowar Elves or Sylvan Library, or any number of other similar cards. It's so far down the list of options it's not really worth considering. The one thing Magus has is that it's cheap, but financial cost should never factor in to power level assessment.
You're alone in this one OP. It's fine to have pet cards, but I'm not going around telling everyone that Mystic Snake is an amazing card that goes in every UG deck, I just quietly enjoy playing my stupid bad snapcaster snek with the full understanding that it's not great.
Magus doesn't suck. If you run it you'll see that you get it to do what you want it to do most of the time. Unfortunately, just being good isn't good enough for this format, and it should very rarely survive cuts. In certain decks though, it's pretty good. In Damia, it helps you ramp into her then is always able to either draw you cards or give you Mana depending on what you need. I also tend to like it in BG decks as it's easy to manage your hand size there but a bit too costly to just go nuts drawing cards like in UG, so you're more likely to end up right around 7. Otherwise, reliability issues and overall power level keep it out of most decks. A card slot and 2 colored Mana is a significant opportunity cost for something as fragile as this, whereas Library replaces a land, and since it makes Mana and etb untapped the only drawback is that it doesn't make colored Mana. Just literally zero cost risk free extra card draw when you don't need it's Mana.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
In general, I think that mana dorks tend to be more optimal when playing with or against MLD, land stasis, or faster combo. In slower metas it tends to be more favored to ramp using lands due to sweepers. When it comes to dorks, you often want ones that are really insane on how much mana they can provide like say Bloom Tender or perhaps the versatility of something like Deathrite Shaman. When it comes to 1-2 mana dorks its not too often that fair decks want to be jamming a ton of dorks without having a very fast gameplan.
The faster your deck is, the less likely you will draw a late game dork. The faster your deck is, the faster you want your dorks to be though so at that point you would probably not run a GG dork that taps for 1. The problem I see with Magus of the Library is that its not that explosive when you get it in your opener and its a slow and fragile manadork. Ramping with rocks / land is just a lot safer for fair decks and its not as cheap as other dorks if you really want to move fast.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The card is really quite bad, and appropriately rated by the community.
So a 4.031/5 is "bad" based on community rating?
It's an absolutely awful mana dork stapled to a very situational draw spell.
Draw spell? I assume your not referring to the land or just its activated ability in general.
Library is good because it can come down early enough to reliably draw you a couple cards. Magus cannot do that unless you're twiddling your thumbs and not unloading your hand
T1: Forest
T2: Forest, Magus
T3: Draw, tap Magus to draw, play up to 2 cards from hand.
T4: Draw, tap magus to draw, play up to 2 cards from hand.
You can still play your hand, you just have to pace yourself.
and also has the added fragility of being a creature.
A toughness of 1 would have been a better argument than being a creature.
A good deck would always rather have a Llanowar Elves
Llanowar is fairly mediocre if you aren't capitalizing on the elf or druid tribal if that is what you meant by a "good deck". At best case scenario, when outside of those themes, its a 1/1 that might get a boost from an overrun-based effect.
or Sylvan Library
Which is a different style of card draw and is more comparable to a brainstorm that lets you pay life to not put cards back on top of the library. Unless you have the lifegain to back it up for a +2, your effectively getting a +0 in net value most of the time; +1 if you actually need to hold onto something in hand but not likely to happen every turn.
It's so far down the list of options it's not really worth considering.
From this thread, quite the contrary if its been brought up.
The one thing Magus has is that it's cheap, but financial cost should never factor in to power level assessment.
This seems quite random for a statement like you ran out of ammunition.
You're alone in this one OP.
False statement.
It's fine to have pet cards, but I'm not going around telling everyone that Mystic Snake is an amazing card that goes in every UG deck, I just quietly enjoy playing my stupid bad snapcaster snek with the full understanding that it's not great.
Mystic Snake sees plenty of play, I don't know why you would think the opposite.
In general, I think that mana dorks tend to be more optimal when playing with or against MLD, land stasis, or faster combo. In slower metas it tends to be more favored to ramp using lands due to sweepers.
...
The faster your deck is, the less likely you will draw a late game dork. The faster your deck is, the faster you want your dorks to be though so at that point you would probably not run a GG dork that taps for 1. The problem I see with Magus of the Library is that its not that explosive when you get it in your opener and its a slow and fragile manadork. Ramping with rocks / land is just a lot safer for fair decks and its not as cheap as other dorks if you really want to move fast.
The thing is, I am a non-blue control player and I play mostly with relatively competitive players. Not top tier cEDH, but definitely more competitive, highly tuned decks that will mop the table with decks that are not fast enough or interactive enough, some that would definitely be called cEDH. And I win. More than my share. So, yeah, I think dorks are better than many people think. I guess I play with a lot of people who don't play what you call "fair decks". They are meant to kill, and do it well, by any means possible. It can be very fast.
Even for these games, not every game is done by turn four. Sometimes people make a move on turn four to win, but usually people are interactive enough that it doesn't go through, and the game goes on. See, even in combo heavy cEDH metas, games can be explosive early, but most still turn out to be grindy for at least several turns after that. Decks that only explode die to decks that contain explosions, and then grind better than the rest. Raw power and explosiveness, plus interaction, plus accumulated value often win. Decks that don't plan for the long game lose way more often.
My preferred non-blue control are my Queen Marchesa control, my Meren control/value, my Selvala mono-G combo/aggro, and my Gaddock Teeg hatebears. Queen Marchesa obviously doesn't run it, Meren doesn't care if it dies, and uses Dredge for card advantage, leaving me at 7 cards much of the game, and Teeg is not afraid of sweepers, it just grinds better than anything, and needs more dorks and draw. Selvala could use it, but I don't right now.
T1: Forest
T2: Forest, Magus
T3: Draw, tap Magus to draw, play up to 2 cards from hand.
T4: Draw, tap magus to draw, play up to 2 cards from hand.
You can still play your hand, you just have to pace yourself.
This is exactly right. And then you have a single card card-draw engine that you can upgrade to insane levels with other cards that are powerful by themselves, and are very frequently played.
The point is, I am not advocating for replacing Birds of Paradise or Llanowar Elves with this. I am saying that this is another dork that also pretty easily provides very good card draw for grindy games. Focusing on it's fragility loses sight of the utility of a body. Chip damage, even if it doesn't kill someone, is important because it reduces a resource that can be used otherwise. A single damage is a card you deny the Necropotence player, or can reduce the depth a player can go with Ad Nauseam. Even small life loss can affect the game, even with 40 life. A chump blocker can mean all the difference in a game. An extra mana is essential when it is essential.
When people say it is bad, I think that their meta is probably either top tier cEDH, or not very competitive. For second tier cEDH, it is fantastic for many decks, especially non-blue control players.
I don't hate the card but often in decks I make I either have more than 7 cards in hand, don't care that I don't have exactly 7 in my hand or am playing a color that can draw better than that.
Hard to make the cut generally, but then again I feel there are few things I would actually call staples other than Sol Ring at this point.
OP is a troll who only wants to be right rather than read why he may be wrong. Why field the question on a public forum only to dismiss unfavorable (read: all) feedback?
Close this moronic thread already.
Public Mod Note
(Airithne):
Trolling warning issued. Please watch the tone of your post and refrain from baiting others.
I don't like creature based ramp. Wouldn't even use Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise.
Land fetch spells tend to be better since you get to keep the mana after the inevitable turn 4 wrath.
Cards like Wood Elves and Sakura-Tribe Elder are my preferred creature based land ramp, although they function like Rampant Growth instead of Llanowar Elves.
Despite all that, Magus of The Library is one mana dork that I might be more likely to use because of it's other function. Just not as a must have.
—is really shallow. So what if Magus of the Library received a 4 star rating on Gatherer? What does that matter? Were you aware that only 13 people contributed to that score? Were you also aware that most of those ratings come from around 2010? That's nearly a decade ago. That's Worldwake. The Commander precons weren't even in print yet. None of those ratings have anything to do with Commander because Commander was barely on anyone's radar in 2010, so you're not proving anything by mentioning this. The community ratings on Gatherer are ancient and discontinued.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
OP is a troll who only wants to be right rather than read why he may be wrong. Why field the question on a public forum only to dismiss unfavorable (read: all) feedback?
Close this moronic thread already.
Pot calling the kettle black? Are you sore because I pointed out your comparison as silly? Get over it. The feedback has not all been dismissed, and has not all been as anti- as you imply. It has come in four different types:
1) It sucks. Usually backed up with a very questionable reasoning. Like "Not as good as Llanowar!" or even stranger, "Not as good as Zhur-Taa Druid!" Both beside the point. Sometime of the form, "I can't get it to work because I don't hold cards!" Neither is totally credible. Your reasoning was truly laughable, and actually trollish. Nice.
2) Definitely sub-optimal because other choices are better, but situationally can be good. Probably the most popular position.
3) Good, but not enough for most decks, and rarely makes the cut. Definitely can be situationally good. This is probably the strongest argument.
4) Good, and under-rated. More decks should run it, even if there are other cards that do similar things that are stronger. Takes a strong second tier in both card draw and ramp. I am not the only one who thinks this, even if this is definitely not the majority. My meta and my play style make it a card that many of my opponents will undervalue, I will get tons of value from, and which is probably the best card to run in that particular slot. No bells will ring as a threat, and I will out-value most of my opponents. Currently, this is what I see as I play. Granted, it is a small sample.
Just because you can't see the value, doesn't mean that the value is not there. I have my answer as to why more people don't run it. I also know that it is not for the reasons that you think. It is because it works best in a very fast but not lightning fast competitive meta where combo wins are common, but grindy games are not uncommon, and MLD and stax are not frowned upon, and in highly tuned decks that do not fear board wipes, especially those decks not running blue. In other words, decks that are also under-valued by the majority of the community.
No trolling, just testing. If you don't like it, move along.
I don't like creature based ramp. Wouldn't even use Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise.
Land fetch spells tend to be better since you get to keep the mana after the inevitable turn 4 wrath.
Cards like Wood Elves and Sakura-Tribe Elder are my preferred creature based land ramp, although they function like Rampant Growth instead of Llanowar Elves.
Despite all that, Magus of The Library is one mana dork that I might be more likely to use because of it's other function. Just not as a must have.
I totally understand this. I used to love dorks back when the only ramp was the Moxen, dorks, Dark Ritual, and Wild Growth. I had a Manabarbs with dorks deck that destroyed people. It was Stax long before Smokestacks. I had an Armageddon Elves deck that was super fun as well. All this was before they invented "Type 1" and "Type 2" magic. There was only one format.
Then there was EDH, and I realized the true power of both rocks, and better yet land ramp. When no one Armageddons in your format, and Wrath of God is more common that even Swords to Plowshares, then land ramp is king.
But then my meta got really fast. Ramp had to happen in the first two turns, so you could either combo off or stop a combo in turns 3 to 6. Wraths happen, but less often than Swords. And then, when infinite combo became common for kills, and there were no holds barred decks being thrown at you, Armageddon was once again OK, same with Blood Moon and Contamination. Suddently, lands were no longer sacred. Dorks and otherwise bad Moxen became much more powerful. Now I value them about equally, and I have realized the power of building toward dorks and the synergies that can be created with them. Dorks are less bad than you think. Lands are less sacred, and more fragile than you think. Don't be afraid of dorks.
Wow. This thread devolved in a hurry. And as is usually the case when that happens, both sides are mostly right in their positions and each is arguing past the other.
Is Magus of the Library an underrated card? Yes. Most people dismiss it out of hand without even giving it a second thought. Is it an all-star card that more people should be running? No. A lot of decks are I’ll-equipped to riding a Library and Magus being a 2-drop creature makes it so much worse than the original. The truth about the Magus is that it really depends on your Commander to earn a spot. The only place that I have found that to be the case was in Damia. Anywhere else and there are probably better options, but I wouldn’t fault someone for running it nor would I underestimate it if it hit the battlefield.
Wow. This thread devolved in a hurry. And as is usually the case when that happens, both sides are mostly right in their positions and each is arguing past the other.
Pretty much.
Most decks these days tend to follow a bomb-heavy formula, which means they want extremely fast, efficient ramp, because they can easily make up the hand size lost while ramping with a single powerful draw spell. So the sooner they can hit those big bombs, the better - smaller CA along the way is not as useful because the top-end spells are so stupidly powerful. So ramp is way more important, and magus is pretty unexciting as a ramp spell. The difference between 1-2 mana is enormous.
Not to say that there aren't draw-go decks looking for solid incremental card advantage like magus provides, and which are easily able to meet the 7 cards requirement. It's just that those decks aren't often green, because green usually lends itself to fast ramp into bombs, and has very high-powered draw tools. If magus was white I guarantee he'd see a ton of play. If he were blue or black, he might see play in some draw-go decks. Red...eh, who knows. Green is probably the worst spot for him though - they already have stronger ramp, and don't often care about incremental draw. And he's double green, which makes it worse, especially for the plebs without full dual/fetch sets.
This is all a generalization, of course. Personally I like the card but I think he's a bit niche because of his color, basically.
I often draw a ton off of this card. It is a decent mana dork, and played early it is amazing. Late game, it is no worse than any other dork. I have never seen it in anyone else's deck. Why don't people play it?
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
There are two major reasons i'm not running it in any deck - yet. For one that double G can be problematic for any 3C and up deck or 2C decks during the first few turns. In addition to that early game factor, i don't think it's great enough later on usually. A late game dork isn't great anyhow, but if i have one in hand it better make more/colorful mana or is a 1 drop.
On a side note, it isn't an elf, why i'd rather play Beast Whisperer in my Ezuri, Renegade Leader deck.
A friend of mine has a Yeva, Nature's Herald deck and it's stellar there, because you can flash it eot before your own turn and get going almost instantly.
I could see it in Yisan, the Wanderer Bard (possibly eot as well), Patron of the Orochi or Surrak, the Hunt Caller (for granting haste), but thats basically it.
It's not great at making mana, not great at drawig cards if you aren't already flush with them, and it dies to everything that kills stuff without exception. Your question is a lot like me asking "Why do I never see crash of rhinos as a win con, even though that overcosted 8/4 hunk of man used to stomp my KT group in 6th grade?" Well, because eldrazi exist now and you've vastly overestimated your success with confirmation bias and are now trying to extrapolate your experience as to be universal.
Tldr; because library of Alexandria is good, but the magus is bad.
Wow. Both patronizing and wrong. This comparison is idiotic, to the point of not even deserving a real response.
My meta runs from very tuned but still casual to cEDH. I win more games than are my fair share. Your comment presumes I don't know how to play, and that I have not evolved my play since I was 12, or that no one I play with is any good. Check your ego, treat others with respect, and take a moment to think before you speak.
GG is somewhat of a hurdle, but for effects that can draw a card, that is not at all the worst. Phyrexian Arena is played all the time, and requires BB, and has a CMC of 3 instead of 2. Dark Confidant is only really common in cEDH circles, but this is close to comparable. It is not that hard to keep 7 cards in hand, especially early game, especially when you are drawing 2 cards per turn, and especially when you have a commander to play that is outside your hand. Any extra card draw, and you have a consistent engine that is a single card.
As a mana dork, many people run plenty of 2 CMC ramp, and while it produces colorless mana, so do a lot of ramp that people play. Mind Stone is a staple, and while not usually in green, colorless dorks are run pretty often, as Boreal Druid is also a staple. In more competitive meta than most battlecruiser style metas, bringing your curve down often results in more wins, and the ability to chump block, attack for even chip damage, ramp when needed, and draw cards, that is what wins games.
It is not flashy, but it works well, and fills a lot of roles. I think it is way overlooked, and I think that those people who overlook it are likely to get more consistently beaten by people who are willing to consider it in the right deck. Those decks are probably most decks that run manna dorks. I am surprised how little people appreciate it.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Paying GG for a Manakin is a terrible rate. Comparatively, if I want to make mana, there's about a zillion other cards I'd play before Magus of the Library. As such, the card's only redeeming quality is the fact that it can draw cards, but the Magus isn't particularly great at doing that either, so if you're playing the card for that reason it's frequently going to disappoint you as well. Having to finagle your hand so that you always have exactly seven cards in it at some point during your turn is fairly difficult for most decks to do without also sacrificing some kind of significant tempo. And sure, the option always exists for you to make mana in the likely event that you can't draw a card with the Magus (or don't want to), but we've already established how bad this card is at making mana, so the Magus better be damn good at drawing cards to make up for it, but it isn't. It's a fragile, backbreaking Phyrexian Arena at best.
If what I want is card draw, I'm going to play cost-effective card draw. If what I want is mana ramp, I'm going to play cost-effective mana ramp. Magus of the Library is neither, and its faux versatility is deserving of little respect.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
And to counter the argument about how hard it is to get GG, any deck that wants to run multiple dorks has no problem getting GG. Most dorks get you G, and they take G to cast. You should have GG without much trouble. Some 3 or 4 color decks will not want to run it, but they sometimes don't want Llanowar Elves either. In a deck that wants dorks, especially if it wants a lot of them, Magus of the Library is not hard to run, and has very little down side compared to any other dork.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
The thing with Library of Alexandria is that you can just put it down T1 and start drawing cards, since in that phase of the game having 7 cards in hand is a given. That's one of the reasons it's banned in Multiplayer commander.
However, when you start to think about what your typical green deck will be doing for its first two turns, the answer is usually play a ton of ramp spells. Hand size on turn 2-3 is usually around 5 cards, unless you're getting mana or color screwed. Having considered that, it's easier to see why this card's draw conditions are too narrow for most green decks, in comparison to stuff like Colossal Majesty, Descendant's Pass, and Elemental Bond.
Having said that, there are decks that use it quite strongly, usually mono green decks with unusual game plans. Yeva has been mentioned, and I'll throw in Nissa, Vastwood Seer. Her ETB and +1 abilities give you a card, which makes it easier to draw from the Magus.
Not saying it's not playable at all, but it strikes me as pretty niche, albeit probably very good in some of those niches, as already noted.
I think you've misunderstood me. When I said that GG was a terrible rate for a Manakin, I wasn't saying that the card was prohibitively difficult to cast (although the fact that the Magus is more difficult to cast shouldn't just be brushed aside either). What I was saying was that the opportunity cost of playing the Magus is high. Consider, for the same amount of mana, you could instead play...
1.) Any one-drop that taps to produce mana (such as Llanowar Elves).
2.) Any two-drop that can produce mana immediately (such as Mind Stone or Nature's Lore).
3.) Any two-drop that produces colored mana, including mana of any color (such as Sylvan Caryatid or Fertile Ground).
4.) Any two-drop that can potentially produce more than one mana (such as Bloom Tender or Priest of Titania).
In this regard, Magus of the Library sucks at making mana. You could do better on literally any axis, so if you're looking at this card as something that often makes mana but occasionally draws cards, I think you're approaching this from the wrong angle. For Magus of the Library to be worth considering, it needs to be something that often draws cards but occasionally makes mana, and that's a much more difficult prospect.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
1) If it costs more than G, a mana dork has to do something special. It can produce more than one color of mana, it can produce multiple mana, it can filter mana with 100% efficiency, it can be a combo engine, it can scale to some variable, it can do something else. Okay, doing something else, drawing a card fits, but that brings us to...
2) Library of Alexandria isn't as good as you might think. You need exactly seven cards. But if I can have exactly seven cards, I can have more than seven cards just as easily. For instance, if I drew to seven with (one of the easiest ways to ensure you have exactly seven cards) Braingeyser, Blue Sun's Zenith, Invoke the Firemind, Stroke of Genius, Mind Spring, Sphinx's Revelation, Dregs of Sorrow, Damnable Pact, Expansion // Explosion, or Azor the Lawbringer, what's to stop me from tapping another land or mana dork to draw 8? Same thing if (the other easy way to ensure you have exactly seven cards) Necropotence, Erebos, God of the Dead, or Book of Rass is involved. All of that suggests Library is good on early turns or (the third easy way to ensure you have exactly seven cards) in wheel decks, but "wheel deck" is super-niche, and my wheel deck is headed by Nekusar, the Mindrazer, which allows for the Library, but not its Magus. Also, "niche" is kinda the opposite of "staple"?
3) Drumhunter is just better. The hoop is much easier to meet, and you can tap for mana and draw. Actually, I don't even see Drumhunter that often, but there you go.
On phasing:
Every EDH deck needs to have potential cards evaluated with the following ideas in mind:
1. Power of the card vs the cost compared to the expected power per cost of alternate cards. As was said above, the opportunity cost.
2. Versatility. The more the card does, the better.
3. Synergy. This has been downplayed above, but is everything in most really good decks.
4. Consistency and duplication of effect. Tutors are good, but so are Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn Elves together.
5. Monetary cost. This matters for most people.
I am not saying that Magus of the Library is the best dork. It is clearly not. Most 1 cmc dorks are better, most produce colored mana, and most have an easier casting cost. I am not saying that it is the best card draw. It will never be Sylvan Library, and often won't keep pace with many blue card draw, and it is definitely not Necropotence. That is not the point. Good decks have many ramp spells and many card draw spells, and many spells that perform multiple functions, and they try to do it with cards that synergize with the other cards that you want to play. There are also many ways to play each color, and so there should be decks that are better or worse at taking advantage of each card. Every deck plays some second string cards that happen to work well for it so that it can fulfill all the necessary functions of the deck.
For Magus of the Library:
1. Power for the cost - Even conditional card draw at a CMC 2 is good. No, it isn't Sylvan Library, but it pairs really well with it. And you should play as many card draw as you can without diluting the other functions of the deck, recognizing prioritizing card draw is pretty important. Also, it is not Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise. But many decks would like a lot of those effects. Ten is not at all unreasonable. This is another one, and is a reasonable alternative to many of those already mentioned, even if very slightly weaker when analyzed in a vaccuum.
2. Versatility - Two essential functions of a deck are ramp and card draw. These are potentially the most powerful effects. This does both. I won't claim that this is Thrasios, but that guy is a powerful commander simply for providing the same two effects, and nothing else.
3. Synergy - Many green decks run dorks, and many run things to synergize with dorks. Seedborn Muse becomes a beast with Magus of the Library, especially in a control shell. Same with the previously mentioned Paradox Engine, as well as things like Quest for Renewal, and so much better than things like Sylvan Caryatid and Drumhunter. Both Engine and Quest are run in a ton of decks, and make Magus crazy. Many decks run other green card draw. Sylvan Library makes this so much better, since you are likely to keep closer to 7 cards in hand.
4. Consistency and duplication - Mane decks want more than 4-5 dorks. This is another one.
5. Monetary cost - This is pennies. Birds is much more, Sylvan Library is much more.
With all this in mind, I can easily see how this is not the right card for many decks. It is also a very good card for many decks, and can slot in without any extra build around to make it work well. Yes, some greed decks dump their hands by turn 3. Not all do. Yes, some green containing decks absolutely need every ramp effect to give you colored mana. Not all do. Not every green deck needs ramp to be colored, and not every green containing deck makes great use of the other options for card draw. My selesnya control, my golgari control, my mono-green control, all love this card.
This card is absolutely under rated. The reactions to this subject pretty well prove it. People suggesting that the best cards in the format prove that this is terrible are silly. People suggesting that Zhur-Taa Druid and Drumhunter prove that it is terrible are way off. Any anyone who thinks that Library of Alexandria is not really that good have no idea. It is banned for a reason. People should play Magus of the Library more. I am astounded that they don't.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
A good deck would always rather have a Llanowar Elves or Sylvan Library, or any number of other similar cards. It's so far down the list of options it's not really worth considering. The one thing Magus has is that it's cheap, but financial cost should never factor in to power level assessment.
You're alone in this one OP. It's fine to have pet cards, but I'm not going around telling everyone that Mystic Snake is an amazing card that goes in every UG deck, I just quietly enjoy playing my stupid bad snapcaster snek with the full understanding that it's not great.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The faster your deck is, the less likely you will draw a late game dork. The faster your deck is, the faster you want your dorks to be though so at that point you would probably not run a GG dork that taps for 1. The problem I see with Magus of the Library is that its not that explosive when you get it in your opener and its a slow and fragile manadork. Ramping with rocks / land is just a lot safer for fair decks and its not as cheap as other dorks if you really want to move fast.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Draw spell? I assume your not referring to the land or just its activated ability in general.
T1: Forest
T2: Forest, Magus
T3: Draw, tap Magus to draw, play up to 2 cards from hand.
T4: Draw, tap magus to draw, play up to 2 cards from hand.
You can still play your hand, you just have to pace yourself.
A toughness of 1 would have been a better argument than being a creature.
Llanowar is fairly mediocre if you aren't capitalizing on the elf or druid tribal if that is what you meant by a "good deck". At best case scenario, when outside of those themes, its a 1/1 that might get a boost from an overrun-based effect.
Which is a different style of card draw and is more comparable to a brainstorm that lets you pay life to not put cards back on top of the library. Unless you have the lifegain to back it up for a +2, your effectively getting a +0 in net value most of the time; +1 if you actually need to hold onto something in hand but not likely to happen every turn.
From this thread, quite the contrary if its been brought up.
This seems quite random for a statement like you ran out of ammunition.
False statement.
Mystic Snake sees plenty of play, I don't know why you would think the opposite.
The thing is, I am a non-blue control player and I play mostly with relatively competitive players. Not top tier cEDH, but definitely more competitive, highly tuned decks that will mop the table with decks that are not fast enough or interactive enough, some that would definitely be called cEDH. And I win. More than my share. So, yeah, I think dorks are better than many people think. I guess I play with a lot of people who don't play what you call "fair decks". They are meant to kill, and do it well, by any means possible. It can be very fast.
Even for these games, not every game is done by turn four. Sometimes people make a move on turn four to win, but usually people are interactive enough that it doesn't go through, and the game goes on. See, even in combo heavy cEDH metas, games can be explosive early, but most still turn out to be grindy for at least several turns after that. Decks that only explode die to decks that contain explosions, and then grind better than the rest. Raw power and explosiveness, plus interaction, plus accumulated value often win. Decks that don't plan for the long game lose way more often.
My preferred non-blue control are my Queen Marchesa control, my Meren control/value, my Selvala mono-G combo/aggro, and my Gaddock Teeg hatebears. Queen Marchesa obviously doesn't run it, Meren doesn't care if it dies, and uses Dredge for card advantage, leaving me at 7 cards much of the game, and Teeg is not afraid of sweepers, it just grinds better than anything, and needs more dorks and draw. Selvala could use it, but I don't right now.
This is exactly right. And then you have a single card card-draw engine that you can upgrade to insane levels with other cards that are powerful by themselves, and are very frequently played.
The point is, I am not advocating for replacing Birds of Paradise or Llanowar Elves with this. I am saying that this is another dork that also pretty easily provides very good card draw for grindy games. Focusing on it's fragility loses sight of the utility of a body. Chip damage, even if it doesn't kill someone, is important because it reduces a resource that can be used otherwise. A single damage is a card you deny the Necropotence player, or can reduce the depth a player can go with Ad Nauseam. Even small life loss can affect the game, even with 40 life. A chump blocker can mean all the difference in a game. An extra mana is essential when it is essential.
When people say it is bad, I think that their meta is probably either top tier cEDH, or not very competitive. For second tier cEDH, it is fantastic for many decks, especially non-blue control players.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Hard to make the cut generally, but then again I feel there are few things I would actually call staples other than Sol Ring at this point.
Close this moronic thread already.
Land fetch spells tend to be better since you get to keep the mana after the inevitable turn 4 wrath.
Cards like Wood Elves and Sakura-Tribe Elder are my preferred creature based land ramp, although they function like Rampant Growth instead of Llanowar Elves.
Despite all that, Magus of The Library is one mana dork that I might be more likely to use because of it's other function. Just not as a must have.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Pot calling the kettle black? Are you sore because I pointed out your comparison as silly? Get over it. The feedback has not all been dismissed, and has not all been as anti- as you imply. It has come in four different types:
1) It sucks. Usually backed up with a very questionable reasoning. Like "Not as good as Llanowar!" or even stranger, "Not as good as Zhur-Taa Druid!" Both beside the point. Sometime of the form, "I can't get it to work because I don't hold cards!" Neither is totally credible. Your reasoning was truly laughable, and actually trollish. Nice.
2) Definitely sub-optimal because other choices are better, but situationally can be good. Probably the most popular position.
3) Good, but not enough for most decks, and rarely makes the cut. Definitely can be situationally good. This is probably the strongest argument.
4) Good, and under-rated. More decks should run it, even if there are other cards that do similar things that are stronger. Takes a strong second tier in both card draw and ramp. I am not the only one who thinks this, even if this is definitely not the majority. My meta and my play style make it a card that many of my opponents will undervalue, I will get tons of value from, and which is probably the best card to run in that particular slot. No bells will ring as a threat, and I will out-value most of my opponents. Currently, this is what I see as I play. Granted, it is a small sample.
Just because you can't see the value, doesn't mean that the value is not there. I have my answer as to why more people don't run it. I also know that it is not for the reasons that you think. It is because it works best in a very fast but not lightning fast competitive meta where combo wins are common, but grindy games are not uncommon, and MLD and stax are not frowned upon, and in highly tuned decks that do not fear board wipes, especially those decks not running blue. In other words, decks that are also under-valued by the majority of the community.
No trolling, just testing. If you don't like it, move along.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
I totally understand this. I used to love dorks back when the only ramp was the Moxen, dorks, Dark Ritual, and Wild Growth. I had a Manabarbs with dorks deck that destroyed people. It was Stax long before Smokestacks. I had an Armageddon Elves deck that was super fun as well. All this was before they invented "Type 1" and "Type 2" magic. There was only one format.
Then there was EDH, and I realized the true power of both rocks, and better yet land ramp. When no one Armageddons in your format, and Wrath of God is more common that even Swords to Plowshares, then land ramp is king.
But then my meta got really fast. Ramp had to happen in the first two turns, so you could either combo off or stop a combo in turns 3 to 6. Wraths happen, but less often than Swords. And then, when infinite combo became common for kills, and there were no holds barred decks being thrown at you, Armageddon was once again OK, same with Blood Moon and Contamination. Suddently, lands were no longer sacred. Dorks and otherwise bad Moxen became much more powerful. Now I value them about equally, and I have realized the power of building toward dorks and the synergies that can be created with them. Dorks are less bad than you think. Lands are less sacred, and more fragile than you think. Don't be afraid of dorks.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Is Magus of the Library an underrated card? Yes. Most people dismiss it out of hand without even giving it a second thought. Is it an all-star card that more people should be running? No. A lot of decks are I’ll-equipped to riding a Library and Magus being a 2-drop creature makes it so much worse than the original. The truth about the Magus is that it really depends on your Commander to earn a spot. The only place that I have found that to be the case was in Damia. Anywhere else and there are probably better options, but I wouldn’t fault someone for running it nor would I underestimate it if it hit the battlefield.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Most decks these days tend to follow a bomb-heavy formula, which means they want extremely fast, efficient ramp, because they can easily make up the hand size lost while ramping with a single powerful draw spell. So the sooner they can hit those big bombs, the better - smaller CA along the way is not as useful because the top-end spells are so stupidly powerful. So ramp is way more important, and magus is pretty unexciting as a ramp spell. The difference between 1-2 mana is enormous.
Not to say that there aren't draw-go decks looking for solid incremental card advantage like magus provides, and which are easily able to meet the 7 cards requirement. It's just that those decks aren't often green, because green usually lends itself to fast ramp into bombs, and has very high-powered draw tools. If magus was white I guarantee he'd see a ton of play. If he were blue or black, he might see play in some draw-go decks. Red...eh, who knows. Green is probably the worst spot for him though - they already have stronger ramp, and don't often care about incremental draw. And he's double green, which makes it worse, especially for the plebs without full dual/fetch sets.
This is all a generalization, of course. Personally I like the card but I think he's a bit niche because of his color, basically.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6