MTG Salvation

In my Mayael deck, should I be playing Nature's Lore & Three Visits or Krosan Tusker & Shefet Monitor?

While I don't have a Mayael deck, I can't see myself ever wanting to run the cycling creatures over the sorceries. The latter get two colours of mana into play untapped on turn two. Tusker doesn't even ramp you, while the Monitor takes 4 mana and only gets one colour, even if they do cantrip. And the creatures aren't even things you really want to hit off of Mayael's ability - a medium sized vanilla beatstick doesn't do that much in this format. And even if I couldn't afford a Three Visits (god that card needs a reprint), I'd stick a Farseek or even a Rampant Growth in there instead before either of these creatures.

There might be an argument for running the creatures alongside the sorceries, as they're not bad cards, but not instead of them.

If GY tricks are a big deal in your meta, Monitor grabs Scavenger Grounds at instant speed.

Quote from MRdown2urth »

If GY tricks are a big deal in your meta, Monitor grabs Scavenger Grounds at instant speed.

gonna add as well, cycling is much harder to counter (i.e. it's not a spell, it's an ability), so if you're in a control-heavy meta, it could be a thing.

Well, cycling is harder to counter, and is great if you're doing graveyard things. It's also nice if you're running Ruric Thar, the Unbowed.

For the most part, though, remember they don't ramp, and they don't pick up duals. I'd probably pick Nature's Lore and Shefet Monitor myself. Shefet Monitor can pick up deserts.

Personally, I'd go for the creatures in Mayael to stick to the theme. It's not like you're going to be competitive with her, so might as well have some fun.

Quote from schweinefett »

Quote from MRdown2urth »

If GY tricks are a big deal in your meta, Monitor grabs Scavenger Grounds at instant speed.

gonna add as well, cycling is much harder to counter (i.e. it's not a spell, it's an ability), so if you're in a control-heavy meta, it could be a thing.

What kind of idiot control player counterspells a 3-4 cmc ramp spell in multiplayer?

Without context, I don't think there's a correct answer. Although I agree with incanur - having them be hittable by mayael in a pinch seems worth the tradeoff in lack of efficiency. Or at least it's more fun.

Quote from DirkGently »

What kind of idiot control player counterspells a 3-4 cmc ramp spell in multiplayer?

I've seen it happen! In one case, it led to a physical conformation & almost a fistfight.

& to be fair, in certain circumstances countering ramp spells makes sense. For example, if you know the combo player needs two more lands to go infinite, maybe you should counter. Or for tempo with Disrupt or (in a pinch) Arcane Denial.

I countered a Sakura-Tribe Elder activation with Bind once because I wanted to draw a card. Denying that one land ended up mattering.

Quote from DirkGently »

Quote from schweinefett »

Quote from MRdown2urth »

If GY tricks are a big deal in your meta, Monitor grabs Scavenger Grounds at instant speed.

gonna add as well, cycling is much harder to counter (i.e. it's not a spell, it's an ability), so if you're in a control-heavy meta, it could be a thing.

What kind of idiot control player counterspells a 3-4 cmc ramp spell in multiplayer?

Without context, I don't think there's a correct answer. Although I agree with incanur - having them be hittable by mayael in a pinch seems worth the tradeoff in lack of efficiency. Or at least it's more fun.

I mean, if someone playing Naya only has green mana available, you bet I'm countering the spell.
Or maybe you just want value off of your remand.

Quote from DirkGently »

Quote from schweinefett »

Quote from MRdown2urth »

If GY tricks are a big deal in your meta, Monitor grabs Scavenger Grounds at instant speed.

gonna add as well, cycling is much harder to counter (i.e. it's not a spell, it's an ability), so if you're in a control-heavy meta, it could be a thing.

What kind of idiot control player counterspells a 3-4 cmc ramp spell in multiplayer?

Without context, I don't think there's a correct answer. Although I agree with incanur - having them be hittable by mayael in a pinch seems worth the tradeoff in lack of efficiency. Or at least it's more fun.

Countering a ramp spell is no different than land destruction; we just don't think of it that way. Same with Pyroclasming a bunch of elves or Krosan Grip on a mana rock. They all set back the target player's mana.

Now, what kind of idiot land destruction player blows up lands that generate one mana and do nothing else with no intention of destroying all the lands for all the opponents is a riddle for the ages.

Quote from DirkGently »

What kind of idiot control player counterspells a 3-4 cmc ramp spell in multiplayer?

Hitting someone's T3 ramp spell can be a huge tempo loss, as there's a decent chance it was in their opening hand and they were evaluating it based on the ramp spell.

Quote from Incanur »

I've seen it happen! In one case, it led to a physical conformation & almost a fistfight.

& to be fair, in certain circumstances countering ramp spells makes sense. For example, if you know the combo player needs two more lands to go infinite, maybe you should counter. Or for tempo with Disrupt or (in a pinch) Arcane Denial.

I countered a Sakura-Tribe Elder activation with Bind once because I wanted to draw a card. Denying that one land ended up mattering.

If you need the side effect of a counter, sure, fine, but if you have a counter and you're worried about someone going infinite...just counter the thing they're going to go infinite with? Is it already on-board in this scenario? Why would they play it early if they need more lands first?
Why would they play their hand like that?

Quote from Dunharrow »

I mean, if someone playing Naya only has green mana available, you bet I'm countering the spell.
Or maybe you just want value off of your remand.

Remand, fine. Countering it just to deny colors, unless they're the biggest threat by a significant margin, there's no chance that's correct. Any deck with decent fixing will probably topdeck the colors within a few turns anyway.

Quote from hyalapterouslemur »

Countering a ramp spell is no different than land destruction; we just don't think of it that way. Same with Pyroclasming a bunch of elves or Krosan Grip on a mana rock. They all set back the target player's mana.

Now, what kind of idiot land destruction player blows up lands that generate one mana and do nothing else with no intention of destroying all the lands for all the opponents is a riddle for the ages.

Maybe this is just what you're saying, but if you're countering a 3 cmc spell it's probably only 1-2 mana.
So it's basically the same thing as running stone rain. Which is really bad in this context.

Quote from cryogen »

Hitting someone's T3 ramp spell can be a huge tempo loss, as there's a decent chance it was in their opening hand and they were evaluating it based on the ramp spell.

In 1v1, sure, in multiplayer, no way in hell. Unless you know in advance that the player is by far the biggest threat at the table or something.

Trading 1:1 resources reactively is fine. Proactively is (with some exceptions) not. Wait for them to ramp into the threat, then counter the threat if it's necessary. Patience is key.

Thanks for the input guys. For my Mayael deck I'm aiming for that sweet spot between casual/thematic and competitive/good stuff (yes, I realize those terms are subjective). I used to have Krosan Tusker in my deck but I've been testing out Three Visits in its place. I've also considered taking out Eternal Dragon for Farseek. I kept Eternal Dragon over Krosan Tusker because it cycles for 2 colorless instead of 2G, it can get dual lands, flies, and I could return it to my hand from the graveyard, although I hardly ever use that ability.