I can see that you can use Quicksilver Elemental ability from exile (cage) to give Mairsil, the Pretender the ability to copy a creature in play, so planeswalkers if you copy them. You can use these planeswalker abilities in your opponents turns as well, but only once. Just not sure on the "infinite".
Infinite comes the fact that as a creature, Loyalty abilities may be activated any number of times. The one activation per turn limit only applies to Planeswalkers.
Also, thanks. I did not know the syntax to make a link to my working list.
I just want to make sure that this doesn't fall under some restirctions with using "loyalty abilities"? Which there are a set of restrictive rules still.
306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.
306.5a The loyalty of a planeswalker card not on the battlefield is equal to the number printed in its lower right corner.
306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
306.5c The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.
306.5d Each planeswalker has a number of loyalty abilities, which are activated abilities with loyalty symbols in their costs. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if none of that permanent’s loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”
606. Loyalty Abilities
606.1. Some activated abilities are loyalty abilities, which are subject to special rules.
606.2. An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
606.4. The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability's cost.
606.5. A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost can't be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
Is there are rules person who can clarify? I've high lighted that fact it does reference "permanent" and not planeswalker in certain instances.
It does say "Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.", so it does seem to be including any permanent still falls under the Loyalty restrictions. But I'm not a rules guy so can't make that call.
Given that, there is still the possibility of a large number of plus or 0 ability activations via a combination of infinite mana combos and bouncing back to hand. It could work but be very fragile to countering that would need addressing.
Here are the planeswalkers under $10 that would probably win you the game with either a [+] or [0] ability.
I've listed ones that draw, deal life loss/damage, but also ones that will put cards into your graveyard, whether that is from library or hand. This assumes that you will also have some win condition with Mairsil, the Pretender with a combination of artifacts/creatures.
I don't think this works anymore. Experiment Kraj used to do this combo and the rules were changed so that loyalty abilities can only be activated once per turn by the permanent.
What you could do is pair Mairsil with Deadeye Navigator, and use an infinite mana combo to flicker Mairsil after each planeswalker activation. You will only get to use + abilities but I can think of a few that would win the game like that.
The problem I've been having is an issue of embarrassment of riches, too many options.
I thought about using Angrath, Minotaur Pirate and going with a pirate tribal / treasure token subtheme. Another option is to go more strictly artifacts and use any of the Tezzeret's, Saheeli's, and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast.
If I'm not careful, I could go through a list going, "That's cool, I'll throw that in." and end up with a list 200+ long and need to cut.
I had settled on 11 planeswalker's for sure before I knew the limitations on creatures with loyalty abilities:
Rowan Kenrith - the ult (i.e. last loyalty ability) for Mairsil and any Artifact Creature Planeswalker's I've got on the field
Saheeli Rai - the -2 ability that would give me more Mairsil caging opportunities along with the ult to go grab: Mycosynth Lattice, The Chain Veil, etc
Saheeli, the Gifted - the first 2 abilities (who doesn't want a token army that could reduce the cost of your spells) paired with Inspiring Statuary
Teferi, Temporal Archmage - all 3 abilities: +1 for general Sensei's Divining Top goodness, which I happen to own 1 copy which is either going in here or an alternative Mairsil combat Voltron deck idea (which, by the way, I found the idea of turning the Planeswalkers into equipment via Bludgeon Brawl hilarious) that I finished before I thought about this one, -1 for another untap source for Mairsil, and the ult for main reason to include him
Tezzeret, the Schemer - mana ramp and as an Artifact Planeswalker to Artifact Creature Planeswalker source, though an occasional spot removal / Mairsil buff is nice
Tezzeret, Artifice Master (he's on the price borderline that his abilities give him a green light) token artifact creatures, card draw, and tutor ult (more Planar Bridge than tutor)
Will Kenrith - already including Rowan, might as well get the other one so they're able to tutor each other; aside from that, his +2 provides for some nice creature control options and the -2 will give me draw along with making my other Walkers cheaper
Tibalt is a bad idea as I could draw into a Planeswalker only to immediately discard it. I like the idea of Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath as a possibility. He could give me a life drain effect that I could use to combo win along with a decent sized token making for a more traditional face-beat approach.
As for protecting my walkers, was going to run Soul of New Phyrexia until I found out that Indestructible doesn't prevent Loyalty counter loss. Any suggestions besides a ton of board wipes?
So I mean assembling the combo you need to have a lot of your deck, a lot of time to play Mairsil multiple times, and also the cards for "make planeswalkers a creature or artifact" and time to play them out, as well as playing out a planeswalker or two.
But I do love me this type of deck, so I want to see it work. I think the best budget options are:
Jace, Memory Adept - Using the [0] ability to put 20 cards into your graveyard will give you access to combo cards to cage for Mairsil. [+1] will draw you into win conditions. This card is a must. Daretti, Scrap Savant - With the artifacts Memnarch, Mycosynth Lattice, Liquimetal Coating being so key for the combo, you want to be able to bring these into play from graveyard, either if they have been milled OR in the face of removal. [+2] will draw you into win conditions. Chandra, Pyromaster - [0] is pseudo draw and the [+1] is a win condition. Chandra, Flamecaller - [+1] is a win condition and [0] is great draw.
As far as the planeswalker you mention, a lot of them I really wouldn't rate them as great for your cause.
The good ones; Saheeli Rai- [+1] win condition and has other combos as you mentioned with [-2]. Teferi, Temporal Archmage - [+1] has draw and [-1] can help with mana and goes infinite with The Chain Veil. Tezzeret, Artifice Master - [+1] can be a win condition with creating infinite 1/1s and [0] provides draw. Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist - [+1] has draw, and yep as you say [0] can help with combo.
Average; Rowan Kenrith, Will Kenrith - Too be honest these are not perfect in this Mairsil deck, but the getting two-for-on is hard to pass up. You could consider Will [+2] a win condition as you can lock out all creatures with the infinite, which would be hard for your opponents to do anything creature wise. And then you can [+2] all your opponents creatures, then actually use the [-2] of the real Rowan to kill off all creatures. Saheeli, the Gifted - The [+1] 1/1s does provide a win condition. [+1] cost less, could help your cause, although defunct once you have infinite, and she has no draw. You can look to get other infinite's with her [-7] and Viral Drake + infinite mana + Memnarch/Mycosynth Lattice/Liquimetal Coating, so she does have some merit.
Why are the others not great? Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast - Infinite defenders isn't really a win condition. No draw. Killing a single creatures is too slow. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - Although the [+3] is near enough to a win condition, he has no draw. Ral Zarek - Unless you assemble infinite untaps, it's not like he provides much, if anything. Now don't get me wrong I play him in my Will& Rowan deck, but I specifically have a combo with Cloudstone Curio. Tezzeret the Schemer - Seems to slow. You already need infinite mana combos before you can look to do the planeswalker as a creature combo, so his [+1] doesn't actually add value even with infinite. Killing a single creature is too slow. The emblem can help your cause, but getting to an ultimate is hard to do.
Any card that gives you draw and discard are great, because you can just discard cards that you can cage with Mairsil, so there is no down side.
That's why cards like Faithless Looting are excellent, because it essentially gets you much deeper into your deck.
You'll have to trust me that once you play a deck like this, you'll realize just how many cards you need to get anything going. You're going to need to make your graveyard like your hand in order to reach the threshold of combination cards. Otherwise doing the math, let's say you go till Turn 10. That's 17 cards you'll naturally draw. 17% of your deck, and you're expecting to assemble 8 very specific cards. The statistical odds are not in your favor.
Sure there are a few ways to get infinite mana. There are a few ways to return Mairsil to hand. But it's still a big threshold of cards to come together.
Obviously playing as many "search your library" cards is going to help. So it's going to be a case of what can you get on a budget? Because the premium ones are very $$ expensive.
But some cheaper options are; Fabricate $3.49. Buried Alive $3.00. Whir of Invention $2.44. Final Parting $0.30. Inventors' Fair $3.29. Treasure Mage $0.34 can get you Memnarch or Mycosynth Lattice.
Windfall $1.00 can help you sift through your deck more quickly, and as I pointed out discarding cards is not necessarily a down side with Mairsil. Not always the case, you might be holding a specific card to do with the planeswalker as a creature combo. But I personally would play it to get my % chance of drawing into combo cards.
As far as protecting planeswalkers? I mean there are not a lot of solutions out side of removing them on-mass from the board.
In my Will + Rowan deck I do use Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs $1.02. Meishin, the Mind Cage $7.95 is an option.
The combo we're talking about is repeatedly using only their +# or 0 ability by targeting them with Quicksilver Elemental after we render them creatures and flickering Mairsil to render him a "new" permanent to be eligible for Loyalty activations. This combo would never use any of the -# abilities.
Well I think i've got some pretty good news. I haven't played Marisil myself, but I was just reading an article and it seems that you can skirt around the 'once per turn' rule of Marisil by actually using the ability of the Quicksilver Elemental to target Mairsil himself, which has some funky rule that means that he can reuse his abilities again.
Here is a link to the article, so unless the rules have been altered since then we got some great new avenues for doing exactly what we want to do with planeswalkers in a slighty less convoluted way, although it's still convoluted
Quicksilver Elemental and the Rules:
1) All abilities that Mairsil possesses can be used once per turn, even if there are many abilities on one single card.
2) Quicksilver Elemental’s ability allows you to give Mairsil a new instance of all abilities, allowing to use the abilities an additional time if you’ve already used them.
3) The new abilities from Quicksilver Elemental also carry the once per turn restriction. This means you have to pay a blue mana every time, that you want to “re-buy” your abilities.
Now there are other ways of getting mana off the back of planeswalkers.
Marisil is going to have zero loyalty to start with. But for example you could use Saheeli Rai [+1] twice to get Marisil up to 2 loyalty, by simply using UU to activate the Quicksilver Elemental ability twice. Then if you had a Gilded Lotus $2.99 or Coveted Jewel $2.25 in play then you can then use the [-2] of Saheeli Rai to copy the Gilded Lotus/Coveted Jewel, which of course allows for activating Marisil another three times, which is infinite.
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast is the same needing to get up to the ultimate [-6] to copy some artifacts that can produce at least U. But here you actually need to get Marisil up to 6 loyalty, so you'd need 6 blue mana to get him up to that.
You can actually potentially get any of your planeswalker ultimate's depending on how much blue mana you have.
Saheeli, the Gifted could potentially do it if you get Marisil up to 7 loyalty. Which isn't easy under non-infinite.
But something like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker means that you can get Marisil up to 9 loyalty off the back of the [+3], only needing UUU, which is very easy.
You can see that the more planeswalker you have on-board to copy the more you can mix and match. There will be more combinations that will allow for infinites or simply great value, but I'd need to have a look at them all again to figure out what are going to be the premium ones.
Honestly I'm loving all these angles and combinations, you can tell by how much I comment that this is exactly my type of wheel house. I will be building a non-budget version at some stage.
Should I still run Soul of New Phyrexia, despite Indestructible being worthless to my Loyalty counters?
I mean you're going to have to tap out every turn to assemble cards anyway, so realistically you're never going to have 5 available. Your opponents are always going to be able to time you out of holding up that sort of mana.
I have reservations about using any self mill strategies. It telegraphs what I am about to do and makes me vulnerable to graveyard hate. I do own a couple of copies of Vampiric Tutor and I was considering Final Parting.
The thing is that you're not fooling anybody anyway as you have to commit combo cards from the outset. It's not like you can cast everything in one turn, so telegraphing is always going to happen anyway.
I'm just going to say that from a statistical stand point it's unlikely that you're going to assemble the Marisil planeswalker combo many games, and that by playing this deck you're going for style points, so running the gauntlet by virtue anyway. So personally see it as a necessary evil that you're going to need to use your graveyard as a resource to have any chance of getting all the pieces and casting in a timely manner.
Razaketh, the Foulblooded could possible get you the required cards, but I imagine the deck is going to be super creature light, especially anything that you're actually putting into play and not caging with Marisil, so probably not going to be more than a tutor or two.
I am super down for making a non-budget version of this deck. I think my main plan to assemble it is going to be;
2) Cast Marisil targeting the Aetherling in graveyard. Then keep using the exile ability each turn to cage Dralnu, Lich Lord and Quicksilver Elemental.
(note: the Aetherling exile ability is also the best way of protecting Marisil from removal)
4) Cast again to get Memnarch, Karn, Silver Golem, any other creature you want, with the intention of caging them all.
5) So likely another full round to get them all caged using the Aetherling exile ability.
6) However you could also cast a planeswalker in your turn.
7) Then use the caged Memnarch1UU to make that planeswalker an artifact.
(note: this can all be done before your turn potentially, during opponents turns, so that way you get to untap with the combo, meaning mana freed up for Quicksilver Elemental ability)
8) Use the caged Karn, Silver Golem1 to make the planeswalker a creature in your turn.
You tap mairsil add 3 blue mana (Gilded Lotus) Untap With staff and then activate Quicksilver.
You now have two instances of each.
Repeat, you now have 4 instance of each (Since it sees both the original ability and the copied ability
Next you have eight, (Seeing the copies and the orginal), 16, 32, 64, 128...
After 7 activatuons it is pretty much infinite,
Quicksilver elemental is broken in Mairsil. She tries to balance by the once per turn, quicksilver breaks that prohibition, and makes her AMAZING.
I was aware of the Mairsil, the Pretender and Quicksilver Elemental synergy. The problem is the rules for Loyalty activations being tied to once a turn per Permanent (the rules used to read once per turn per Planeswalker until someone did a similar interaction we're mulling over using Experiment Kraj, which would have allowed infinite activations a turn and they were like, "Nope; you're having too much fun at other players expense. We'll have to nerf this super hard."). This is why what I need to put together is some ability to flicker Mairsil in and out of play to make him a "new" permanent, thus being eligible for another activation; this necessitates mostly considering +# or 0 abilities with little to no regard for any -# abilities.
That said, although this rather Rube Goldbergesque janky combo (only surpassed by the old Mirrodin combo of starting with any 0 CMC artifact creature, such as Ornithopter, and sacrificing it to Grinding Station which untaps Summoning Station to generate a creature token you then cause to untap and sacrifice to Blasting Station which untaps Salvaging Station to use to retrieve the card you started the chain reaction with ad nauseam) is difficult to pull off, I'll need to be able to survive long enough to do so, hence some consideration for the middle -# ability on the original walker for survival / quality of life purposes or to pursue a win without the combo.
I think you are wrong about the activations of loyalty abilities in this regard. The loyalty abilities are still loyalty abilities. Quicksilver should override that.
Hmm, I just posted in the ruling forum and indeed you can still only use a loyalty ability once, even if you use the Quicksilver Elemental ability to give Marisil a new instance of his abilities.
It's for the reasons of the rule that states 'but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.'
You literally need to make a new instance of the card to use a loyalty ability again. Booo, I was pretty hype for that.
Hmm, I just posted in the ruling forum and indeed you can still only use a loyalty ability once, even if you use the Quicksilver Elemental ability to give Marisil a new instance of his abilities.
It's for the reasons of the rule that states 'but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.'
You literally need to make a new instance of the card to use a loyalty ability again. Booo, I was pretty hype for that.
I am glad i did not go with that strategy then.
Now I am curious if The Chain Veil would allow you to do the ability again given that Mairsil is not a planeswalker, also would activating a loyalty ability with mairsil prevent Veil from doing damage to you?
Anyway, Pack rat is a card you will want to run, it will allow you to get a new Mairsil to use the next ability.
Now I am curious if The Chain Veil would allow you to do the ability again given that Mairsil is not a planeswalker, also would activating a loyalty ability with mairsil prevent Veil from doing damage to you?
He is not a planeswalker so using The Chain Veil won't effect him.
But you can still get infinite mana and infinite untaps with combo cards with Marisil, so caging the The Chain Veil on him still has some merits.
The effort and volume of cards to make this work seems too much. Just use the chain veil combo with tezzeret the seeker + manarocks.
I have a 3+ year old video here of a grixis super friends deck, that may help. There are 3 years of newer tech to run tho.
It's much easier to run the veil+tezzeret combo and rely on mana rocks (which are already a basic part of a grixis edh deck), and fill your deck with control/tutors/recursion/draw instead of a high variance of irreplaceable combo parts that require such precision to just potentially work
Actually, it would be just as easy to cage any Vehicle with a Crew of 4 or less. This would effectively become, "{T} or tap any number of other creatures to Crew Mairsil: Mairsil is an Artifact in addition to his other types." I had already considered running Cultivator's Caravan, Heart of Kiran, and Weatherlight. Are there any other Vehicles worth running to eventually cage after it dies?
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Three sources of adding Artifact type to Planeswalkers: Memnarch, Mycosynth Lattice, or Liquimetal Coating; along with 3 sources of adding Creature type to Artifact Planeswalkers: March of the Machines, Tezzeret, the Schemer, or Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist; allows infinte Loyalty activations via Quicksilver Elemental's ability.
Suggested cards should be $10 or less each with some exceptions if a reason for it is compelling, such as Training Grounds, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, and The Chain Veil. Even these exceptions are under $20 each.
To view what I feel are must includes, look up deck 6549, Mairsil, the Superfriend.
I can see that you can use Quicksilver Elemental ability from exile (cage) to give Mairsil, the Pretender the ability to copy a creature in play, so planeswalkers if you copy them. You can use these planeswalker abilities in your opponents turns as well, but only once. Just not sure on the "infinite".
I've made a fairly intricate Saheeli, the Gifted based around making permanents artifacts, so that might give you some ideas. You can check it out here => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/797281
Also just add the link to your deck in your original post. This is your ideas list => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/6549-mairsil-the-superfriend
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Also, thanks. I did not know the syntax to make a link to my working list.
306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.
306.5a The loyalty of a planeswalker card not on the battlefield is equal to the number printed in its lower right corner.
306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, “This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number.” This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).
306.5c The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.
306.5d Each planeswalker has a number of loyalty abilities, which are activated abilities with loyalty symbols in their costs. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if none of that permanent’s loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”
606. Loyalty Abilities
606.1. Some activated abilities are loyalty abilities, which are subject to special rules.
606.2. An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.
606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent they control any time they have priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of their turn, but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.
606.4. The cost to activate a loyalty ability of a permanent is to put on or remove from that permanent a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability's cost.
606.5. A loyalty ability with a negative loyalty cost can't be activated unless the permanent has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
Is there are rules person who can clarify? I've high lighted that fact it does reference "permanent" and not planeswalker in certain instances.
It does say "Normally, only planeswalkers have loyalty abilities.", so it does seem to be including any permanent still falls under the Loyalty restrictions. But I'm not a rules guy so can't make that call.
[EDIT]
I posted in the ruling forums, and it definitely seems like it still falls under the once per turn rule, because it's attached to the loyalty ability and not to do with actually being a planeswalker.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/798238-mairsil-the-pretender-planeswalkers-and-number-of#c2
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I've listed ones that draw, deal life loss/damage, but also ones that will put cards into your graveyard, whether that is from library or hand. This assumes that you will also have some win condition with Mairsil, the Pretender with a combination of artifacts/creatures.
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded $2.94 - As long as you are using the bounce combo for Mairsil, the Pretender then any artifact/creature that gets discarded can be caged anyway. So you'll 100% get a win-condition.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver $6.82 - just leave opponents with a libraries.
Saheeli Rai $5.00
Jace, the Living Guildpact $2.54
Jace, Memory Adept $5.55
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets $4.19
Jace, Ingenious Mind-Mage $4.96
Daretti, Scrap Savant $2.74
Chandra, Pyromaster $2.00
Chandra, the Firebrand $2.75
Chandra Nalaar $3.18
Chandra, Bold Pyromancer $4.37
Chandra, Flamecaller $3.00
Chandra, Pyrogenius $2.38
Liliana, Untouched by Death $7.97 - assumes an artifact or creature win as well.
Liliana, Death's Majesty $10.00 - assumes an artifact or creature win as well.
Liliana, the Necromancer $7.51
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath $6.15
Ob Nixilis Reignited $2.42 - this one is not guaranteed as you might be on low life before you draw into win con.
Jaya Ballard $4.49
Angrath, the Flame-Chained $5.99
Angrath, Minotaur Pirate $4.17
Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist $5.27
Tezzeret, Master of Metal $3.25 - assumes that you have an artifact win condition as well.
Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh $7.00
Nicol Bolas, the Deceiver $5.17
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker $7.51 - not actually deterministic, but you can blow up opponents lands every turn.
[EDIT]
Actually I have a Will & Rowan Kenrith deck that has loops with planeswalkers using Cloudstone Curio which has very similar applications to what you will be looking to do. You can check out the interactions here => https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/794212
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
What you could do is pair Mairsil with Deadeye Navigator, and use an infinite mana combo to flicker Mairsil after each planeswalker activation. You will only get to use + abilities but I can think of a few that would win the game like that.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I thought about using Angrath, Minotaur Pirate and going with a pirate tribal / treasure token subtheme. Another option is to go more strictly artifacts and use any of the Tezzeret's, Saheeli's, and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast.
If I'm not careful, I could go through a list going, "That's cool, I'll throw that in." and end up with a list 200+ long and need to cut.
I had settled on 11 planeswalker's for sure before I knew the limitations on creatures with loyalty abilities:
Tibalt is a bad idea as I could draw into a Planeswalker only to immediately discard it. I like the idea of Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath as a possibility. He could give me a life drain effect that I could use to combo win along with a decent sized token making for a more traditional face-beat approach.
As for protecting my walkers, was going to run Soul of New Phyrexia until I found out that Indestructible doesn't prevent Loyalty counter loss. Any suggestions besides a ton of board wipes?
After all you already will need something like Mairsil caged = Quicksilver Elemental, Ovinomancer, Morphling, Gilded Lotus.
To actually get infinite mana and infinite return to hand, you'll also need haste, so Lightning Greaves or Anger or Thousand-Year Elixir type cards.
March of the Machines + Mycosynth Lattice in play for making planewalkers creatures.
So I mean assembling the combo you need to have a lot of your deck, a lot of time to play Mairsil multiple times, and also the cards for "make planeswalkers a creature or artifact" and time to play them out, as well as playing out a planeswalker or two.
But I do love me this type of deck, so I want to see it work. I think the best budget options are:
Jace, Memory Adept - Using the [0] ability to put 20 cards into your graveyard will give you access to combo cards to cage for Mairsil. [+1] will draw you into win conditions. This card is a must.
Daretti, Scrap Savant - With the artifacts Memnarch, Mycosynth Lattice, Liquimetal Coating being so key for the combo, you want to be able to bring these into play from graveyard, either if they have been milled OR in the face of removal. [+2] will draw you into win conditions.
Chandra, Pyromaster - [0] is pseudo draw and the [+1] is a win condition.
Chandra, Flamecaller - [+1] is a win condition and [0] is great draw.
As far as the planeswalker you mention, a lot of them I really wouldn't rate them as great for your cause.
The good ones;
Saheeli Rai- [+1] win condition and has other combos as you mentioned with [-2].
Teferi, Temporal Archmage - [+1] has draw and [-1] can help with mana and goes infinite with The Chain Veil.
Tezzeret, Artifice Master - [+1] can be a win condition with creating infinite 1/1s and [0] provides draw.
Tezzeret, Cruel Machinist - [+1] has draw, and yep as you say [0] can help with combo.
Average;
Rowan Kenrith, Will Kenrith - Too be honest these are not perfect in this Mairsil deck, but the getting two-for-on is hard to pass up. You could consider Will [+2] a win condition as you can lock out all creatures with the infinite, which would be hard for your opponents to do anything creature wise. And then you can [+2] all your opponents creatures, then actually use the [-2] of the real Rowan to kill off all creatures.
Saheeli, the Gifted - The [+1] 1/1s does provide a win condition. [+1] cost less, could help your cause, although defunct once you have infinite, and she has no draw. You can look to get other infinite's with her [-7] and Viral Drake + infinite mana + Memnarch/Mycosynth Lattice/Liquimetal Coating, so she does have some merit.
Why are the others not great?
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast - Infinite defenders isn't really a win condition. No draw. Killing a single creatures is too slow.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - Although the [+3] is near enough to a win condition, he has no draw.
Ral Zarek - Unless you assemble infinite untaps, it's not like he provides much, if anything. Now don't get me wrong I play him in my Will& Rowan deck, but I specifically have a combo with Cloudstone Curio.
Tezzeret the Schemer - Seems to slow. You already need infinite mana combos before you can look to do the planeswalker as a creature combo, so his [+1] doesn't actually add value even with infinite. Killing a single creature is too slow. The emblem can help your cause, but getting to an ultimate is hard to do.
Any card that gives you draw and discard are great, because you can just discard cards that you can cage with Mairsil, so there is no down side.
That's why cards like Faithless Looting are excellent, because it essentially gets you much deeper into your deck.
You'll have to trust me that once you play a deck like this, you'll realize just how many cards you need to get anything going. You're going to need to make your graveyard like your hand in order to reach the threshold of combination cards. Otherwise doing the math, let's say you go till Turn 10. That's 17 cards you'll naturally draw. 17% of your deck, and you're expecting to assemble 8 very specific cards. The statistical odds are not in your favor.
Sure there are a few ways to get infinite mana. There are a few ways to return Mairsil to hand. But it's still a big threshold of cards to come together.
Obviously playing as many "search your library" cards is going to help. So it's going to be a case of what can you get on a budget? Because the premium ones are very $$ expensive.
But some cheaper options are; Fabricate $3.49. Buried Alive $3.00. Whir of Invention $2.44. Final Parting $0.30. Inventors' Fair $3.29.
Treasure Mage $0.34 can get you Memnarch or Mycosynth Lattice.
Windfall $1.00 can help you sift through your deck more quickly, and as I pointed out discarding cards is not necessarily a down side with Mairsil. Not always the case, you might be holding a specific card to do with the planeswalker as a creature combo. But I personally would play it to get my % chance of drawing into combo cards.
As far as protecting planeswalkers? I mean there are not a lot of solutions out side of removing them on-mass from the board.
In my Will + Rowan deck I do use Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs $1.02.
Meishin, the Mind Cage $7.95 is an option.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Unfortunately. I cannot cheat and rack up enough loyalty to use the ult if I wanted.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
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I do realize its a lot of moving parts. That's why I wasn't going to over rely on the combo. If I get it off, great; but, I should build it in such a way that I am able to win without the combo. Why I was going to include things like Razaketh, the Foulblooded, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, Trading Post, and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast for a supply of either chump blockers, sacrifice fodder, or places to sacrifice, also why I wanted to run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, for the spot removal his +3 provides. I am also considering running Deepglow Skate, Treasure Mage (and/or other Tr- Mage friends), and Deadeye Quartermaster along with Panharmonicon, Flameshadow Conjuring, and Minion Reflector. I could also run Rishadan Brigand, Rishadan Footpad, Rishadan Cutpurse, and Angrath, Minotaur Pirate.
I was also going to include Padeem, Consul of Innovation which would give himself Hexproof if I can turn him into an Artifact.
I have reservations about using any self mill strategies. It telegraphs what I am about to do and makes me vulnerable to graveyard hate. I do own a couple of copies of Vampiric Tutor and I was considering Final Parting. Should I still run Soul of New Phyrexia, despite Indestructible being worthless to my Loyalty counters?
Before you suggest it, I am aware of putting Tree of Perdition on him is a strong move; but, in multiplayer environments, that move will get a target on my head real quick unless I can actually win the game the same turn I cage it.
Here is a link to the article, so unless the rules have been altered since then we got some great new avenues for doing exactly what we want to do with planeswalkers in a slighty less convoluted way, although it's still convoluted
1) All abilities that Mairsil possesses can be used once per turn, even if there are many abilities on one single card.
2) Quicksilver Elemental’s ability allows you to give Mairsil a new instance of all abilities, allowing to use the abilities an additional time if you’ve already used them.
3) The new abilities from Quicksilver Elemental also carry the once per turn restriction. This means you have to pay a blue mana every time, that you want to “re-buy” your abilities.
So this means that we can use all the abilities of Marisil again for as much U as we have available.
Now this means that any planeswalker that can produce U is going to mean that we can keep reusing Marisil infinitely with the Quicksilver Elemental ability targetting himself each time.
I believe these are; Ral Zarek, Koth of the Hammer, Tezzeret the Schemer, Tezzeret the Seeker, Teferi, Temporal Archmage.
Koth of the Hammer needs to specifically target a Volcanic Island or Steam Vents.
Tezzeret the Seeker needs an artifact source that produces at least U.
Even though Teferi, Temporal Archmage untap is [-1], you can use the [+1] to get a loyalty counter on Marisil and then alternate between [-1] and [+1].
I know you're on a budget, so some of the above cards are very expensive. But you have Ral Zarek, Tezzeret the Schemer, Teferi, Temporal Archmage, so that is great.
Now there are other ways of getting mana off the back of planeswalkers.
Marisil is going to have zero loyalty to start with. But for example you could use Saheeli Rai [+1] twice to get Marisil up to 2 loyalty, by simply using UU to activate the Quicksilver Elemental ability twice. Then if you had a Gilded Lotus $2.99 or Coveted Jewel $2.25 in play then you can then use the [-2] of Saheeli Rai to copy the Gilded Lotus/Coveted Jewel, which of course allows for activating Marisil another three times, which is infinite.
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast is the same needing to get up to the ultimate [-6] to copy some artifacts that can produce at least U. But here you actually need to get Marisil up to 6 loyalty, so you'd need 6 blue mana to get him up to that.
You can actually potentially get any of your planeswalker ultimate's depending on how much blue mana you have.
Saheeli, the Gifted could potentially do it if you get Marisil up to 7 loyalty. Which isn't easy under non-infinite.
But something like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker means that you can get Marisil up to 9 loyalty off the back of the [+3], only needing UUU, which is very easy.
You can see that the more planeswalker you have on-board to copy the more you can mix and match. There will be more combinations that will allow for infinites or simply great value, but I'd need to have a look at them all again to figure out what are going to be the premium ones.
Honestly I'm loving all these angles and combinations, you can tell by how much I comment that this is exactly my type of wheel house. I will be building a non-budget version at some stage.
I mean you're going to have to tap out every turn to assemble cards anyway, so realistically you're never going to have 5 available. Your opponents are always going to be able to time you out of holding up that sort of mana.
The thing is that you're not fooling anybody anyway as you have to commit combo cards from the outset. It's not like you can cast everything in one turn, so telegraphing is always going to happen anyway.
I'm just going to say that from a statistical stand point it's unlikely that you're going to assemble the Marisil planeswalker combo many games, and that by playing this deck you're going for style points, so running the gauntlet by virtue anyway. So personally see it as a necessary evil that you're going to need to use your graveyard as a resource to have any chance of getting all the pieces and casting in a timely manner.
Razaketh, the Foulblooded could possible get you the required cards, but I imagine the deck is going to be super creature light, especially anything that you're actually putting into play and not caging with Marisil, so probably not going to be more than a tutor or two.
I am super down for making a non-budget version of this deck. I think my main plan to assemble it is going to be;
1) Cast Buried Alive or Intuition for Dralnu, Lich Lord, Aetherling, Quicksilver Elemental.
2) Cast Marisil targeting the Aetherling in graveyard. Then keep using the exile ability each turn to cage Dralnu, Lich Lord and Quicksilver Elemental.
(note: the Aetherling exile ability is also the best way of protecting Marisil from removal)
3) In your next turn use the Dralnu, Lich Lord ability to target the Buried Alive/Intuition.
4) Cast again to get Memnarch, Karn, Silver Golem, any other creature you want, with the intention of caging them all.
5) So likely another full round to get them all caged using the Aetherling exile ability.
6) However you could also cast a planeswalker in your turn.
7) Then use the caged Memnarch 1UU to make that planeswalker an artifact.
(note: this can all be done before your turn potentially, during opponents turns, so that way you get to untap with the combo, meaning mana freed up for Quicksilver Elemental ability)
8) Use the caged Karn, Silver Golem 1 to make the planeswalker a creature in your turn.
Karn is quite $$ expensive so alternatives on budget are; Xenic Poltergeist $0.32, Ashnod's Transmogrant $0.17
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Say you have Mairsil with caged Gilded Lotus, Quicksilver Elemental and, Staff of Domination.
You tap mairsil add 3 blue mana (Gilded Lotus) Untap With staff and then activate Quicksilver.
You now have two instances of each.
Repeat, you now have 4 instance of each (Since it sees both the original ability and the copied ability
Next you have eight, (Seeing the copies and the orginal), 16, 32, 64, 128...
After 7 activatuons it is pretty much infinite,
Quicksilver elemental is broken in Mairsil. She tries to balance by the once per turn, quicksilver breaks that prohibition, and makes her AMAZING.
Make sure you also run a pack rat.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
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That said, although this rather Rube Goldbergesque janky combo (only surpassed by the old Mirrodin combo of starting with any 0 CMC artifact creature, such as Ornithopter, and sacrificing it to Grinding Station which untaps Summoning Station to generate a creature token you then cause to untap and sacrifice to Blasting Station which untaps Salvaging Station to use to retrieve the card you started the chain reaction with ad nauseam) is difficult to pull off, I'll need to be able to survive long enough to do so, hence some consideration for the middle -# ability on the original walker for survival / quality of life purposes or to pursue a win without the combo.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
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It's for the reasons of the rule that states 'but only if no player has previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.'
You literally need to make a new instance of the card to use a loyalty ability again. Booo, I was pretty hype for that.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I am glad i did not go with that strategy then.
Now I am curious if The Chain Veil would allow you to do the ability again given that Mairsil is not a planeswalker, also would activating a loyalty ability with mairsil prevent Veil from doing damage to you?
Anyway, Pack rat is a card you will want to run, it will allow you to get a new Mairsil to use the next ability.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
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But you can still get infinite mana and infinite untaps with combo cards with Marisil, so caging the The Chain Veil on him still has some merits.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
After looking through some cards, I'm surprised no one mentioned Thran Temporal Gateway and other "I care about Historic stuff," type cards.
I have a 3+ year old video here of a grixis super friends deck, that may help. There are 3 years of newer tech to run tho.
It's much easier to run the veil+tezzeret combo and rely on mana rocks (which are already a basic part of a grixis edh deck), and fill your deck with control/tutors/recursion/draw instead of a high variance of irreplaceable combo parts that require such precision to just potentially work
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!