I'm currently brainstorming ideas for a UBG-based deck with Thrasios, Triton Hero & either Silas Renn, Seeker Adept or Ikra Shidiqi, The Usurper at the helm. My Idea is to play a dredge style toolbox deck, where I use my graveyard as an extended hand, sort of. I haven't fully decided which subthemes I'm going to play, but emphasis on lands and utility creatures with ETB effects is very likely. Also going to work a Birthing Pod chain into the mana curve as well as some control magic, like counter spells.
Now, I have played similar archetypes over the years on and off in all sorts of color combinations, very effectively, but I'm really wondering how people generally close out games, without an infinite combo as mentioned in the title. Is it really just grinding out value until no one can match you? Wiping the board, getting rid of troublesome permanents & stopping combos is certainly something these colors are good at, but I've recently started to wonder if one can combine these controling strategies with strong and reliable ways to win the game without grinding for an hour until your opponents scoop.
I'm certainly aware of magic's cardpool, but I seem to aim for something a little bit more original and creative than casting a giant Exsanguinate or bringing in a Craterhoof Behemoth to close out games.
I'm really appreciating any form of input on that matter.
I have worked this problem for a long time, and even helped a friend realize the value of non-combat win conditions in attrition decks. The truth is, attrition and control style decks can have a hard time competing in combat with the likes of more aggressive and explosive decks. This leads to the necessity for non-combat options, however combo wins can leave a bad taste in the mouth, especially for opponents.
One note I have is that a different choice of commander may suit your decks theme better. I immediately thought of Tasigur as an interesting graveyard based commander that can offer great value.
For cards that help win the game outside of combat, these cards are helpful without going infinite.
Regarding how to end the game - I used to play Karador, Ghost Chieftain with no combos. I would basically lock people out of the game and they would wait for me to kill them slowly, since all they needed was a good topdeck and they would be back in. Soft locks and value grinding is great, but it doesn't actually end the game, and I found it unfun to play forever like that.
I would suggest having a unique combo to close out the game. Not a silver bullet to win out of nowhere, but a way to bring the game to an end when you have dominance.
I have worked this problem for a long time, and even helped a friend realize the value of non-combat win conditions in attrition decks. The truth is, attrition and control style decks can have a hard time competing in combat with the likes of more aggressive and explosive decks. This leads to the necessity for non-combat options, however combo wins can leave a bad taste in the mouth, especially for opponents.
One note I have is that a different choice of commander may suit your decks theme better. I immediately thought of Tasigur as an interesting graveyard based commander that can offer great value.
For cards that help win the game outside of combat, these cards are helpful without going infinite.
I do agree with you that combat based stuff really isn't working that well in attrition based decks unless the board is completely clean. But even then, our creatures aren't necessarily the best beaters, so until we finish all opponents they could very well re-establish a board presence.
For the commander choice I have a few reasons why I want to go for Thrasios, Triton Hero, which will be the main commander anyways. First, he really is a great card that comes down early and helps on the way to the late game by ramping and providing library manipulation. Second, there are some cool interactions with his ability, like using it to dredge Life from the Loam or the busted interaction with the recently spoiled Underrealm Lich. Note his ability says "Otherwise draw a card" so it can be used to dredge and also triggers the Lich.
I really think Tasigur, the Golden Fang makes a great commander, but someone else in my meta plays him and additionally I don't like that my opponents get to choose the card I get back. I just think he is a late game value commander, while Thrasios is more early to mid game value. I will probably end up playing him in the 99 though, because he is another great card that benefits from playing Training Grounds, like The Scarab God & Duskwatch Recruiter, which I plan to all play in the same deck.
As for your suggestions, I really like some of them. I completely forgot about Kokusho, the Evening Star for example which does a lot.
Regarding how to end the game - I used to play Karador, Ghost Chieftain with no combos. I would basically lock people out of the game and they would wait for me to kill them slowly, since all they needed was a good topdeck and they would be back in. Soft locks and value grinding is great, but it doesn't actually end the game, and I found it unfun to play forever like that.
I would suggest having a unique combo to close out the game. Not a silver bullet to win out of nowhere, but a way to bring the game to an end when you have dominance.
Another way is to have a few cards that exile cards from your opponents library - Villainous Wealth and Nightmare Incursion do so in spades. You can just grind your opponents out until their deck is gone.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Now admittedly you want a strong land based theme to support these cards, so does require more of a budget to have the supporting cards.
Let me know if you want some suggestions on what I'd consider supporting cards for the above strategy?
I'm currently brainstorming ideas for a UBG-based deck with Thrasios, Triton Hero & either Silas Renn, Seeker Adept or Ikra Shidiqi, The Usurper at the helm. My Idea is to play a dredge style toolbox deck, where I use my graveyard as an extended hand, sort of. I haven't fully decided which subthemes I'm going to play, but emphasis on lands and utility creatures with ETB effects is very likely. Also going to work a Birthing Pod chain into the mana curve as well as some control magic, like counter spells.
Now, I have played similar archetypes over the years on and off in all sorts of color combinations, very effectively, but I'm really wondering how people generally close out games, without an infinite combo as mentioned in the title. Is it really just grinding out value until no one can match you? Wiping the board, getting rid of troublesome permanents & stopping combos is certainly something these colors are good at, but I've recently started to wonder if one can combine these controling strategies with strong and reliable ways to win the game without grinding for an hour until your opponents scoop.
I'm certainly aware of magic's cardpool, but I seem to aim for something a little bit more original and creative than casting a giant Exsanguinate or bringing in a Craterhoof Behemoth to close out games.
I'm really appreciating any form of input on that matter.
One note I have is that a different choice of commander may suit your decks theme better. I immediately thought of Tasigur as an interesting graveyard based commander that can offer great value.
For cards that help win the game outside of combat, these cards are helpful without going infinite.
Gilded Drake for bounce fun
Alter of Dementia for self mill, or combo mill win-con
Regarding how to end the game - I used to play Karador, Ghost Chieftain with no combos. I would basically lock people out of the game and they would wait for me to kill them slowly, since all they needed was a good topdeck and they would be back in. Soft locks and value grinding is great, but it doesn't actually end the game, and I found it unfun to play forever like that.
I would suggest having a unique combo to close out the game. Not a silver bullet to win out of nowhere, but a way to bring the game to an end when you have dominance.
You can have something like Sewer Nemesis (naming yourself) and use Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord to kill all opponents.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Thanks for the reply PrimevalCommander
I do agree with you that combat based stuff really isn't working that well in attrition based decks unless the board is completely clean. But even then, our creatures aren't necessarily the best beaters, so until we finish all opponents they could very well re-establish a board presence.
For the commander choice I have a few reasons why I want to go for Thrasios, Triton Hero, which will be the main commander anyways. First, he really is a great card that comes down early and helps on the way to the late game by ramping and providing library manipulation. Second, there are some cool interactions with his ability, like using it to dredge Life from the Loam or the busted interaction with the recently spoiled Underrealm Lich. Note his ability says "Otherwise draw a card" so it can be used to dredge and also triggers the Lich.
I really think Tasigur, the Golden Fang makes a great commander, but someone else in my meta plays him and additionally I don't like that my opponents get to choose the card I get back. I just think he is a late game value commander, while Thrasios is more early to mid game value. I will probably end up playing him in the 99 though, because he is another great card that benefits from playing Training Grounds, like The Scarab God & Duskwatch Recruiter, which I plan to all play in the same deck.
As for your suggestions, I really like some of them. I completely forgot about Kokusho, the Evening Star for example which does a lot.
Can Villainous Wealth really be considered a finisher though?
I really like your idea with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, I will consider him. Profits from Training Grounds as well.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Avenger of Zendikar
Rampaging Baloths
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Tendershoot Dryad
Ezuri's Predation
Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
Now admittedly you want a strong land based theme to support these cards, so does require more of a budget to have the supporting cards.
Let me know if you want some suggestions on what I'd consider supporting cards for the above strategy?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith