I am posting this thread because I need your help to create a deck to punish my friend.
The main reason is that he wins around 90% of commander games (always 3 person games). He is a control type player, who likes to mess around with our board in various ways. I can't seem to stop him from winning, and I am getting quite frustrated as time goes by. He owns finely crafted decks, but nothing truly cEDH. Our group is casual but we are all experienced players.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is really strong. I personally love Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. (Cyclonic Rift with him down is BRUTAL.) These are both pretty expensive because you need tons of artifact ramp, but can be insanely powerful. Just having the threat of playing Jin is super scary and players will always be on the back-foot. It's best if you've got some free counter-spells to get Jin down without people having a good chance to respond.
If you want something fairly cheap and extremely dirty, grab an Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck with a bit of counter-magic, a bunch of super cheap creatures (Cloud of Faeries) and some extra turn effects.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
I'll add that the Edric decks sound ridiculously consistent (plus you're in the top two EDH colors). AND the most expensive cards (price-wise) are the extra turn spells. Or top-end counters.
Another vote for Edric if you want to cut someone down to size without having to spend much money. After all, there's not much better than beating people with Flying Men and other tiny creatures that aren't even worth playing in limited. The first time people see the deck, they'll laugh. Or maybe even get excited that they'll get to draw cards. Then they see you drawing 6+ cards a turn. Then taking extra turns that double your board presence. Then turning your 1/1s into 6/6s....
There's a good primer over in the multiplayer decklist forum that can get you started.
Of course, then the rest of the group with hate you instead of that guy, but hey, that's Magic.
Your group sounds a lot like mine, except the edh wins are more evenly distributed in ours. Do you think your issue (all your friends) is that you’re focusing more on theme and not enough on solid mechanics? Cards like sweepers for multiple card types, card draw, repetitive or mass recycling, spot removal/exile, utility lands like Arcane Lighthouse, Bojuka Bog, or Rogue’s Passage?
I ask because when I make a deck and don’t purposefully plan as balanced a deck as I can, I have a hard time stopping my strongest competition. Like you, we don’t pack many tier 1 cards, but we are experienced and can use the good cards we do play with. Possibly your decks just need some refining within the themes you have without spending gobs of money on a new deck. $50 of refurb at most can do wonders to spruce up your mechanics and doing so has saved most of my decks. The cool thing is there are so many cards about, you can even save Vorthos builds with on-theme swaps.
Anyway, not meaning to lecture here. It will help us if you can tell us more your friend’s typical attack vectors, cards he punks you with, etc. There is an answer for everything, and these guys are great at solving strategy issues, which is what this sounds more like. Some more details on your friend’s strategy will help.
For example, Merieke is annoying, but can be handled without too much problem until my friend pairs her with Pemmin’s Aura, which turns her into a nightmare wrecking ball
Your group sounds a lot like mine, except the edh wins are more evenly distributed in ours. Do you think your issue (all your friends) is that you’re focusing more on theme and not enough on solid mechanics?
I have made this error (theme wise) and have since dismantled those decks. Being cute doesn't cut it in EDH.
Anyway, not meaning to lecture here. It will help us if you can tell us more your friend’s typical attack vectors, cards he punks you with, etc.
No offense taken!
It would take too long to go into detail, but let me show an example: he will steal a creature with Merieke Ri Berit then sac it via Ertai, the Corrupted. This is the kind of stuff we are being presented with. With Captain Sisay, it becomes a true nightmare after a while...
I have tried various decks but so far, most seem too slow or just can't keep up (or cannot react) to whatever crap he plays.
This is throwing me off. Does he ramp more than you? Are his curves lower than yours? Why are your decks too slow?
Instead of looking for a silver bullet to nerf this wide array of decks, why don't you let us help you make one of your existing decks better.
I am amazed that he wins 90% of his games when they are effectively 2 vs 1. It sounds like his decks are more finely tuned than you and the other player.
Instead of looking for a silver bullet to nerf this wide array of decks, why don't you let us help you make one of your existing decks better.
I recently made this one (which I made to turn his stuff against him), tried it last night but it didn't quite take off. It did manage to steal a few creatures (which were then sacrificed via one of various sac outlets), but could not establish itself for the win:
It is a first draft, I am already working on some upgrades. I need more draw, or ways to profit from sacrificing opponent's creatures. Some sac outlets are rather ordinary, I used what I currently own.
Your group sounds a lot like mine, except the edh wins are more evenly distributed in ours. Do you think your issue (all your friends) is that you’re focusing more on theme and not enough on solid mechanics?
I have made this error (theme wise) and have since dismantled those decks. Being cute doesn't cut it in EDH.
Anyway, not meaning to lecture here. It will help us if you can tell us more your friend’s typical attack vectors, cards he punks you with, etc.
No offense taken!
It would take too long to go into detail, but let me show an example: he will steal a creature with Merieke Ri Berit then sac it via Ertai, the Corrupted. This is the kind of stuff we are being presented with. With Captain Sisay, it becomes a true nightmare after a while...
Your friend sounds like a mix between my friend and I. We both play a lot of control and strong synergies, just at a non-cEDH level. The way I overcame his stromg synergies, honestly, was robbing from other cards types and beefing up solid control, both mass-removal and spot removal. I look for theme cards that play well together with all the parts of the deck, so that whatever I draw (within reason) has a good chance of being relevant, and then pack enough draw to get past pileups of land or early cards. In short, I had to focus on hard control answers and card advantage of all types (recursion, draw, and mass-destruction). While it makes all of my decks control decks to some degree, at least I have something in the deck that can address issues that come up. Now, between him and I it just comes down to which one of us gets that synergy or control card that matches up better versus the other person because we are on an equal footing. Without going tier1 and infnite, that’s about the best you can ask for.
Edit: Forgot to mention that a lot of my mass destruction either is one-sided Wrath effects to leave my board intact while wrecking the opponent, or sweepers that hit card types that I intentionally minimize so that scorched-earth moves don’t cripple me. Stuff like Lavalanche, Hex, Aura Shards, Torment of Hailfire, Sudden Spoiling, Decimate. Less stuff like Wrath, Damnation, Shatterstorm, Fracturing Gust, UNLESS I’m not reliant on those card types. Flexible mass answers like Austere Command and Merciless Eviction are also super-strong for saving your butt. Minimizing dependency on what you nuke en masse really amps the card advantage insanely into your favor. Doing this ensures that while your friend makes strong plays, his lockouts are potentially limited when you have nukes ready to reset his board and stabilize your own.
You need to lower your curve. If he's playing tutor decks like Sisay then he can silver-bullet whatever you're trying to do by the time you land those 7-9 drop spells. Notably, you're trying to cast 7-9 drops without reliable ramp. 3-player commander is an extremely fast game where, essentially, two people will be vying to kill the leader while not giving away too much advantage. In my experience it is usually finished by a Kingmaker not a King. You need to drop strong threats on the table in the early turns and get in under his answers. If you don't want to play infinite combos, you have to be very very aggressive to beat control. Like others said, something like Edric will be very strong. Elves or Krenko can be just as fast. And no, none of those decks run much that costs more than 3 cmc. If its higher thsn 3cmc it better be winning you the game, essentially
Put Homeward Path into most of your decks. I see he has two blue based theft commanders so homeward will counter him fairly well. Obviously he can Strip Mine it / whatever but it should at least help.
Graveyard hate will hurt Wrexial. Not running enough graveyard hate is a normal issue for a lot of casual metas.
Beyond those three tips, my biggest concerns with his lineups without knowing more is the combination of the two theft commanders and sisay's tutors. These three commanders though are all susceptible to Pithing Needle effects though. I really don't think there is any one commander that you "need" to run to counter these so much as a few type of effects I would consider running to counteract the strategies that this player enjoys. On the upside most of these effects are available to most every color. Just focus on some of these cards that slow him down or stop some of the tactics that he often uses and continue on playing whatever you like playing.
EDIT: if I were to pick a commander to specifically try to counter him I would probably pick a hexproof voltron commander given they bypass a lot of his theft control.
One issue that comes up is the frequent use of artifacts/enchantments of all sorts. I made a deck with Tatyova, Benthic Druid (see here for deck: https://deckbox.org/sets/2010955) and it works quite well so far. All the card draw really helps, along with various ways to destroy his permanents.
I would like to have another deck which can play along those lines, I was thinking about blue-red-black as this combination of colors packs a lot of control cards. Maybe, instead of trying to steal stuff, I should focus more on intensive control (shatter effects, counterspells, bounce, creature destroy, etc.). One weakness, however, is the lack of cards that can deal with enchantements (other than Nevvy and similar cards). I would just love to be able to repeatedly say: No, no and NO to what he tries to do!
As for a hexproof commander, I tried to use Lazav, Dimir Mastermind but so far, the deck dissapoints me.
One issue that comes up is the frequent use of artifacts/enchantments of all sorts. I made a deck with Tatyova, Benthic Druid (see here for deck: https://deckbox.org/sets/2010955) and it works quite well so far. All the card draw really helps, along with various ways to destroy his permanents.
I would like to have another deck which can play along those lines, I was thinking about blue-red-black as this combination of colors packs a lot of control cards. Maybe, instead of trying to steal stuff, I should focus more on intensive control (shatter effects, counterspells, bounce, creature destroy, etc.). One weakness, however, is the lack of cards that can deal with enchantements (other than Nevvy and similar cards). I would just love to be able to repeatedly say: No, no and NO to what he tries to do!
As for a hexproof commander, I tried to use Lazav, Dimir Mastermind but so far, the deck dissapoints me.
Some good easy suggestions that should be a bit easier to follow through on would be Sigarda, Host of Herons or Uril, the Miststalker. There are a lot of other commanders with hexproof as well but I think these are two of the easier ones to build well. One of the challanges of a commander like Lazav, Dimir Mastermind is that there is some amount of dependence on what your opponents are playing for it to work out optimally.
Not every deck has to have an answer to everything. Remember there are other players in the game as well not to mention the option to potentially ignore a threat and just go for a kill instead of worrying about the long term effects of a threat. Keep in mind as well that colorless cards offer a lot of utility and access to the weaknesses of a lot of color pairs. It might not be optimal but you could use something like Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated, Meteor Golem, Spine of Ish Sah, Scour from Existence and so many others to interact with effects that color pairs normally have issues with interacting with.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I was thinking about which commander to use and came upon Teneb, the Harvester. He has access to some of the best colors for control, plus his ability can take advantage of what ends up in the 'yard. Anyone has used this commander with some degree of success (or faced one)?
I was thinking about which commander to use and came upon Teneb, the Harvester. He has access to some of the best colors for control, plus his ability can take advantage of what ends up in the 'yard. Anyone has used this commander with some degree of success (or faced one)?
The builds I have seen tend to be very control based with some ETB based creatures who contribute ramp / removal generally. The commander is decent but there is also a lot of other options that function very similarly for that kind of a deck like say Karador, Ghost Chieftain or Tymna the Weaver builds (I play an abzan build partnered with Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper).
I think that Teneb, the Harvester is fine though. I think where he would shine when you compare him with other abzan options is that you could potentially run less creatures than most other Abzan commanders seem to want.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I was thinking about which commander to use and came upon Teneb, the Harvester. He has access to some of the best colors for control, plus his ability can take advantage of what ends up in the 'yard. Anyone has used this commander with some degree of success (or faced one)?
Some of the best colors for control...minus the #1 color for control? I'd call that "middling colors for control".
Teneb is not a particularly powerful commander, although that might be fine if your friend's power level is also not particularly high (and of course a powerful deck can make up for a mediocre commander, but that usually costs $$$).
What is it about Lazav that's disappointed you? Lazav can be a really solid control deck imo, with tons of counters and removal and lazav as a finisher - just don't bother with any mill garbage.
Also, of course, obligatory plug for my Phelddagrif deck for any meta with power imbalance concerns. Shut him down with a slew of removal and counters, while empowering his enemies to kill him with armies of hippos. Then once he's dead, wipe the board and plink in for lethal with phelddy. Fun for the whole family. Some skill required
Also, of course, obligatory plug for my Phelddagrif deck for any meta with power imbalance concerns. Shut him down with a slew of removal and counters, while empowering his enemies to kill him with armies of hippos. Then once he's dead, wipe the board and plink in for lethal with phelddy. Fun for the whole family. Some skill required
Pheldy is another of his commanders... Another one is Vhati il-Dal... you can see the kind of player he is!
Lazav is here, see for yourself: https://deckbox.org/sets/1996625... it needs fine-tuning for sure, I will add a Traumatize which should help, but I think it needs much more to become viable.
Some of the best colors for control...minus the #1 color for control? I'd call that "middling colors for control".What is it about Lazav that's disappointed you? Lazav can be a really solid control deck imo, with tons of counters and removal and lazav as a finisher - just don't bother with any mill garbage.
Why not? Isn't that a good way to fuel graveyards? How would you go about it?
Put Homeward Path into most of your decks. I see he has two blue based theft commanders so homeward will counter him fairly well. Obviously he can Strip Mine it / whatever but it should at least help.
Speaking as someone with a theft deck (Thada), Brooding Saurian has caused me much more trouble than Homeward Path; it triggers every single end step no matter who controls it, and it hits noncreatures I've stolen in addition to creatures.
The main reason is that he wins around 90% of commander games (always 3 person games). He is a control type player, who likes to mess around with our board in various ways. I can't seem to stop him from winning, and I am getting quite frustrated as time goes by. He owns finely crafted decks, but nothing truly cEDH. Our group is casual but we are all experienced players.
I have tried various decks but so far, most seem too slow or just can't keep up (or cannot react) to whatever crap he plays. Some of the commanders he uses are: Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, Merieke Ri Berit, Rubinia Soulsinger, Wrexial, the Risen Deep, Captain Sisay....
Can you suggest a commander who can teach some lessons to such a player? No infinite combos, please.
Thanks a lot!
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
If you want something fairly cheap and extremely dirty, grab an Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck with a bit of counter-magic, a bunch of super cheap creatures (Cloud of Faeries) and some extra turn effects.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
There's a good primer over in the multiplayer decklist forum that can get you started.
Of course, then the rest of the group with hate you instead of that guy, but hey, that's Magic.
And using MLD would not be well received.
I ask because when I make a deck and don’t purposefully plan as balanced a deck as I can, I have a hard time stopping my strongest competition. Like you, we don’t pack many tier 1 cards, but we are experienced and can use the good cards we do play with. Possibly your decks just need some refining within the themes you have without spending gobs of money on a new deck. $50 of refurb at most can do wonders to spruce up your mechanics and doing so has saved most of my decks. The cool thing is there are so many cards about, you can even save Vorthos builds with on-theme swaps.
Anyway, not meaning to lecture here. It will help us if you can tell us more your friend’s typical attack vectors, cards he punks you with, etc. There is an answer for everything, and these guys are great at solving strategy issues, which is what this sounds more like. Some more details on your friend’s strategy will help.
For example, Merieke is annoying, but can be handled without too much problem until my friend pairs her with Pemmin’s Aura, which turns her into a nightmare wrecking ball
No offense taken!
It would take too long to go into detail, but let me show an example: he will steal a creature with Merieke Ri Berit then sac it via Ertai, the Corrupted. This is the kind of stuff we are being presented with. With Captain Sisay, it becomes a true nightmare after a while...
This is throwing me off. Does he ramp more than you? Are his curves lower than yours? Why are your decks too slow?
Instead of looking for a silver bullet to nerf this wide array of decks, why don't you let us help you make one of your existing decks better.
I am amazed that he wins 90% of his games when they are effectively 2 vs 1. It sounds like his decks are more finely tuned than you and the other player.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
https://deckbox.org/sets/2069541?s=i&o=d.
It is a first draft, I am already working on some upgrades. I need more draw, or ways to profit from sacrificing opponent's creatures. Some sac outlets are rather ordinary, I used what I currently own.
Your friend sounds like a mix between my friend and I. We both play a lot of control and strong synergies, just at a non-cEDH level. The way I overcame his stromg synergies, honestly, was robbing from other cards types and beefing up solid control, both mass-removal and spot removal. I look for theme cards that play well together with all the parts of the deck, so that whatever I draw (within reason) has a good chance of being relevant, and then pack enough draw to get past pileups of land or early cards. In short, I had to focus on hard control answers and card advantage of all types (recursion, draw, and mass-destruction). While it makes all of my decks control decks to some degree, at least I have something in the deck that can address issues that come up. Now, between him and I it just comes down to which one of us gets that synergy or control card that matches up better versus the other person because we are on an equal footing. Without going tier1 and infnite, that’s about the best you can ask for.
Edit: Forgot to mention that a lot of my mass destruction either is one-sided Wrath effects to leave my board intact while wrecking the opponent, or sweepers that hit card types that I intentionally minimize so that scorched-earth moves don’t cripple me. Stuff like Lavalanche, Hex, Aura Shards, Torment of Hailfire, Sudden Spoiling, Decimate. Less stuff like Wrath, Damnation, Shatterstorm, Fracturing Gust, UNLESS I’m not reliant on those card types. Flexible mass answers like Austere Command and Merciless Eviction are also super-strong for saving your butt. Minimizing dependency on what you nuke en masse really amps the card advantage insanely into your favor. Doing this ensures that while your friend makes strong plays, his lockouts are potentially limited when you have nukes ready to reset his board and stabilize your own.
Beyond those three tips, my biggest concerns with his lineups without knowing more is the combination of the two theft commanders and sisay's tutors. These three commanders though are all susceptible to Pithing Needle effects though. I really don't think there is any one commander that you "need" to run to counter these so much as a few type of effects I would consider running to counteract the strategies that this player enjoys. On the upside most of these effects are available to most every color. Just focus on some of these cards that slow him down or stop some of the tactics that he often uses and continue on playing whatever you like playing.
EDIT: if I were to pick a commander to specifically try to counter him I would probably pick a hexproof voltron commander given they bypass a lot of his theft control.
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[Modern] Allies
I would like to have another deck which can play along those lines, I was thinking about blue-red-black as this combination of colors packs a lot of control cards. Maybe, instead of trying to steal stuff, I should focus more on intensive control (shatter effects, counterspells, bounce, creature destroy, etc.). One weakness, however, is the lack of cards that can deal with enchantements (other than Nevvy and similar cards). I would just love to be able to repeatedly say: No, no and NO to what he tries to do!
As for a hexproof commander, I tried to use Lazav, Dimir Mastermind but so far, the deck dissapoints me.
Some good easy suggestions that should be a bit easier to follow through on would be Sigarda, Host of Herons or Uril, the Miststalker. There are a lot of other commanders with hexproof as well but I think these are two of the easier ones to build well. One of the challanges of a commander like Lazav, Dimir Mastermind is that there is some amount of dependence on what your opponents are playing for it to work out optimally.
Not every deck has to have an answer to everything. Remember there are other players in the game as well not to mention the option to potentially ignore a threat and just go for a kill instead of worrying about the long term effects of a threat. Keep in mind as well that colorless cards offer a lot of utility and access to the weaknesses of a lot of color pairs. It might not be optimal but you could use something like Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Karn Liberated, Meteor Golem, Spine of Ish Sah, Scour from Existence and so many others to interact with effects that color pairs normally have issues with interacting with.
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[Modern] Allies
The builds I have seen tend to be very control based with some ETB based creatures who contribute ramp / removal generally. The commander is decent but there is also a lot of other options that function very similarly for that kind of a deck like say Karador, Ghost Chieftain or Tymna the Weaver builds (I play an abzan build partnered with Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper).
I think that Teneb, the Harvester is fine though. I think where he would shine when you compare him with other abzan options is that you could potentially run less creatures than most other Abzan commanders seem to want.
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[Modern] Allies
Teneb is not a particularly powerful commander, although that might be fine if your friend's power level is also not particularly high (and of course a powerful deck can make up for a mediocre commander, but that usually costs $$$).
What is it about Lazav that's disappointed you? Lazav can be a really solid control deck imo, with tons of counters and removal and lazav as a finisher - just don't bother with any mill garbage.
Also, of course, obligatory plug for my Phelddagrif deck for any meta with power imbalance concerns. Shut him down with a slew of removal and counters, while empowering his enemies to kill him with armies of hippos. Then once he's dead, wipe the board and plink in for lethal with phelddy. Fun for the whole family. Some skill required
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Lazav is here, see for yourself: https://deckbox.org/sets/1996625... it needs fine-tuning for sure, I will add a Traumatize which should help, but I think it needs much more to become viable.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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