There's something I've noticed lately. Multicolour decks that run various taplands, but not Path of Ancestry. Let's rectify that here.
First of all, let's look at Path of Ancestry in a vacuum. Its a land that will always produce a mana of any colour, at the cost of entering the battlefield tapped. In that vein, it's a worse Command Tower. But if you cast a creature that shares a type with your commander, you get to scry 1.
Scry 1 is not a powerful ability, no, but it's useful and free card selection. And I think a reason a lot of people ignore the Path is that people think that it will not work unless you have a tribal deck. Which just isn't true. Even if you only cast your commander once, you still get a scry out of it - which makes it akin to the Temples. Just a bit later in the game. Once you get a second activation though, it's value outstrips that of the Temple of Deceit and its pals.
And a lot of decks tend to have multiple creatures that share a creature type with the commander, no matter how random. Every single one that just so happens to share your commander's type will increase the value of the Path in your deck.
So why, I wonder, do I end up seeing decks that run Crumbling Necropolis but not Path of Ancestry? Or even worse, Transguild Promenade/Rupture Spire. Even most CIPT lands with a small upside tend to be vastly inferior to the Path. Really, the only ones that come close are the Temples, Cycleduals and the Manlands, the first due to their earlier game potentional, the second due to their various utility and the third due to being fetchable and having cycling. The gain-1-life-lands are useful for decks that use their effects, but kinda falter otherwise.
And for those lands the rule does tend to be; the more colours you run, the worse they get (cycleduals excepted due to fetchability). Any CIPT land without an upside, no matter what they tap for, is automatically inferior to Path of Ancestry, whether you run tribal or not. So...why is it still omitted from so many decks, even if they do run the worse multilands?
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
My guess would be because the card is a $5 common printed in one run of precons. For both price and availability, it is fairly obvious that people would choose things like the tri-lands or Rupture Spire instead. Unless I'm make a true competitive deck, I (and many people I know) just slam whatever random color-producing lands they happen to find first into a deck and call it a day. Between all the multi-lands that have ever been printed and that are readily available, it is easy to build a well-functioning manabase without having to include $5 lands if you don't want to. Ultimately, the difference in effect is extremely minimal while the difference in price is orders of magnitude.
My guess would be because the card is a $5 common printed in one run of precons. For both price and availability, it is fairly obvious that people would choose things like the tri-lands or Rupture Spire instead. Unless I'm make a true competitive deck, I (and many people I know) just slam whatever random color-producing lands they happen to find first into a deck and call it a day. Between all the multi-lands that have ever been printed and that are readily available, it is easy to build a well-functioning manabase without having to include $5 lands if you don't want to. Ultimately, the difference in effect is extremely minimal while the difference in price is orders of magnitude.
It's really not that bad. I have it in a few of my three color budget decks. It's possible I'm not the greatest example, though. I play Rith's Grove in one of my decks. Now that's a bad land.
It's really not that bad. I have it in a few of my three color budget decks. It's possible I'm not the greatest example, though. I play Rith's Grove in one of my decks. Now that's a bad land.
Give me lairs 100% of the time over transguild/spire or even evolving wilds and teramorphic expanse.
Give me lairs 100% of the time over transguild/spire or even evolving wilds and teramorphic expanse.
There is no way setting yourself back a land permanently is better than Rupture Spire. The lairs are just straight terrible. The only reason I play Rith's Grove is because it's a Rith, the Awakener deck.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's really not that bad. I have it in a few of my three color budget decks. It's possible I'm not the greatest example, though. I play Rith's Grove in one of my decks. Now that's a bad land.
Give me lairs 100% of the time over transguild/spire or even evolving wilds and teramorphic expanse.
Seconding Sahrim's sentiment. Yes, you do set yourself back a land, but that's what the rocks are often there for. Add in that it comes in untapped and doesn't require an untapped land to be bounced, and you can minimize the damage. I play Crosis' Catacombs myself in my zombie deck, and it's great.
It's really not that bad. I have it in a few of my three color budget decks. It's possible I'm not the greatest example, though. I play Rith's Grove in one of my decks. Now that's a bad land.
Lairs and other bouncelands are at least playable in landfall decks, though most of those decks rely on comboing out with either Sporemound and Life and Limb (with some way to get rid of one of those) or something like Skyshroud Ranger (There are at least four cards like it that I know of.), Retreat to Coralhelm, and one of the Ravnica bouncelands. And even Rith's Grove and friends aren't taplands, so you can bounce a tapped land.
Downsides are only bad until you make them into upsides.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Idk if you can compare the scry of the temples to this. Typically if a deck wants to run temples for the scry effect, they want to do so for the chance of seeing (and playing) them early turns to help set up future landdrop/ramp/tutor choices.
While the free scry from casting a tribal card that matches the commander (or the commander itself) is free card selection, the speed of when you *might* actually cast something to scry becomes questionable.
So many decks can just run away with excessive card draw and card advantage that a scry1 isn't helpful past the setup turns.
I'm not disagreeing that the card is likely not seeing enough play, but I think it shouldn't go in just every deck to get a scry off casting the commander.
I think the usefulness is more along the lines of how many creatures in the deck match the commander, and the total # of colors of the deck. More than 8 matching creaturs? Then it is likely better than a temple. 4 or 5 color deck not running fetches and shocks? Then it's likely better than most other semi-budget lands.
Otherwise I wouldn't run it.
Granted this is based off my experiance. Most of my decks are tuned to try and participate in the game as soon as possible, and if a land comes in to play tapped, it had better make a very meaningful impact on my deck.
There is no way setting yourself back a land permanently is better than Rupture Spire. The lairs are just straight terrible. The only reason I play Rith's Grove is because it's a Rith, the Awakener deck.
Strongly disagree, its not a permanent setback. It can actually accelerate you, and no one has a land drop every turn. Tap a land, drop this and bounce the tapped basic or whatever. Plus reuse ETB lands.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Strongly disagree, its not a permanent setback. It can actually accelerate you, and no one has a land drop every turn. Tap a land, drop this and bounce the tapped basic or whatever. Plus reuse ETB lands.
You're... You're still down a land drop? I don't understand how you think a bounce land can accelerate you. Sure, you can play a 2-drop on turn 2 with a Lair, but then you're left with 1 land in play. The Lairs are bad, people. It's really not this complicated.
Give me lairs 100% of the time over transguild/spire or even evolving wilds and teramorphic expanse.
There is no way setting yourself back a land permanently is better than Rupture Spire. The lairs are just straight terrible. The only reason I play Rith's Grove is because it's a Rith, the Awakener deck.
How come in no way? I like the lair lands since it fits a nice niche.
lair lands can bounce a land back that is tapped for mana or ability, then the lair can be tapped immediately.
Rupture spire reduces 1 mana in the first turn
Lair adds one more mana in the first turn, and then the second turn, it is the same as Rupture Spire unless you have another land in hand.
Or can use for to bounce ETB lands but generally they arent useful. But lastly, it is decent in landfall decks.
In a highlander format, repeatable scry, even scry 1, is hella strong. And we all agree that a tapland for three or more colors (Crumbling Necropolis and friends, Murmuring Bosk is functionally a tapland in most decks but it's a forest stapled on a Caves of Koilos, and the forest means it's fetchable) is acceptable.
The question in one or two colors (where taplands become far more iffy) becomes how many possible triggers do you have. I mean, you're guaranteed to have at least one unless your commander's a planeswalker, since Nameless Race isn't legendary. (Hah!)
Something to remember as well:
Morphs don't count. Also, if your commander's in a hidden zone (though you can just send him/her/it/them back to the Command Zone), that's also typeless.
Tribals don't count. That's 54 cards, about half of them are playable in some deck or another, but most of them are kinda specific, or require a Sun Titan package or some such (so you won't be casting them too much).
Token generators don't count either. So, yeah, Raise the Alarm in Darien, King of Kjeldor doesn't count. Just casting creature spells. This sucks because a lot of times, if I'm playing tribal, I'm playing tokens. Why? Because giving all goblins +1/+1 is more powerful if you have a lot of goblins.
One of these days, I'll do a taxonomy of tribal effects.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Strongly disagree, its not a permanent setback. It can actually accelerate you, and no one has a land drop every turn. Tap a land, drop this and bounce the tapped basic or whatever. Plus reuse ETB lands.
You're... You're still down a land drop? I don't understand how you think a bounce land can accelerate you. Sure, you can play a 2-drop on turn 2 with a Lair, but then you're left with 1 land in play. The Lairs are bad, people. It's really not this complicated.
The only reason a lair should be considered is if you're making a 3-5 color landfall-matters deck, or if you're going for theme.
Uh, you can play your Lair, tap it for mana, let it die, and use that mana to pay half of Centaur Vinecrasher's recursion ability (triggered by the Lair dying).
So...not totally useless. I don't know if there's a Jund deck that focuses on Titania/Gitrog...but maybe there's a place for it.
I would run a basic over a land that cipt in pretty much every situation, even in a 4-color deck. Even when one of my decks is that many colors, it's typically a two-color deck with splashes, which good artifacts and good lands easily cover.
Given that we're using cipt lands, Path of Ancestry seems like one of the better ones. Perfect fixing and high upside.
I have no idea how Rith's Grove&co. vs. Transguild Promenade/Rupture Spire is a point of contention. They're both terrible even as far as budget lands are concerned so it seems like people are just looking for an excuse to argue.
You're... You're still down a land drop? I don't understand how you think a bounce land can accelerate you. Sure, you can play a 2-drop on turn 2 with a Lair, but then you're left with 1 land in play. The Lairs are bad, people. It's really not this complicated.
Well you play it as the last land from your hand. Then it's no downside as long as you don't draw a land on the next turn. And it can give you extra mana if you have exploration or something, since you can replay the land untapped the same turn. Plus of course reuse etb lands.
The problem is that (almost) forcing you to play it as your last land means you probably aren't getting the fixing when you want it, which is usually ASAP.
Can't believe how many people I've seen play rupture spire. Man that card sucks. evolving wilds and terramorphic are also badly overused.
The existence of Ash Barrens means that there better be a good reason for a deck to run Evolving Wilds variants.
-because there's only one ash barrens and you can run both
-because ash barrens is worse with crucible
I mean they're all pretty weak lands. I don't think an optimum manabase should be running any of them tbh. If you're trying 5 color on a budget I'd probably run all three though (although I also probably just wouldn't do 5 color on a budget).
Sidestory: I ran into a guy a few weeks ago who was going all basics 5 color...it was a budget league of some kind, with a max value limit and where the less your deck is worth the better your tiebreakers or something. He had saved money by not buying any nonbasics for his 5c deck...and had then spent most of his allotted budget on blood moon and back to basics.
Can't believe how many people I've seen play rupture spire. Man that card sucks. evolving wilds and terramorphic are also badly overused.
I'd play both Evolving Wilds and Rupture Spire before I'd put a Lair in my deck (except for flavor reasons, obviously).
Then you don't understand how bad Spire is, while trying to make others thinks a bounce land that comes in untapped is worse? Again, untapped tri color AFTER you tap the land you bounced for mana. Its demonstrably better.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
First of all, let's look at Path of Ancestry in a vacuum. Its a land that will always produce a mana of any colour, at the cost of entering the battlefield tapped. In that vein, it's a worse Command Tower. But if you cast a creature that shares a type with your commander, you get to scry 1.
Scry 1 is not a powerful ability, no, but it's useful and free card selection. And I think a reason a lot of people ignore the Path is that people think that it will not work unless you have a tribal deck. Which just isn't true. Even if you only cast your commander once, you still get a scry out of it - which makes it akin to the Temples. Just a bit later in the game. Once you get a second activation though, it's value outstrips that of the Temple of Deceit and its pals.
And a lot of decks tend to have multiple creatures that share a creature type with the commander, no matter how random. Every single one that just so happens to share your commander's type will increase the value of the Path in your deck.
So why, I wonder, do I end up seeing decks that run Crumbling Necropolis but not Path of Ancestry? Or even worse, Transguild Promenade/Rupture Spire. Even most CIPT lands with a small upside tend to be vastly inferior to the Path. Really, the only ones that come close are the Temples, Cycleduals and the Manlands, the first due to their earlier game potentional, the second due to their various utility and the third due to being fetchable and having cycling. The gain-1-life-lands are useful for decks that use their effects, but kinda falter otherwise.
And for those lands the rule does tend to be; the more colours you run, the worse they get (cycleduals excepted due to fetchability). Any CIPT land without an upside, no matter what they tap for, is automatically inferior to Path of Ancestry, whether you run tribal or not. So...why is it still omitted from so many decks, even if they do run the worse multilands?
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
No one should ever chose Rupture Spires.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Give me lairs 100% of the time over transguild/spire or even evolving wilds and teramorphic expanse.
Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Green Black Control with Graveyard Advantages)
Standard
Probably Mono Red Sligh
Modern
Dredge
Legacy
Dredge
...
...bloody hell.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Seconding Sahrim's sentiment. Yes, you do set yourself back a land, but that's what the rocks are often there for. Add in that it comes in untapped and doesn't require an untapped land to be bounced, and you can minimize the damage. I play Crosis' Catacombs myself in my zombie deck, and it's great.
I confess, I was surprised myself. Aside from that little hiccup, I agree with your original sentiment though, Lou.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Lairs and other bouncelands are at least playable in landfall decks, though most of those decks rely on comboing out with either Sporemound and Life and Limb (with some way to get rid of one of those) or something like Skyshroud Ranger (There are at least four cards like it that I know of.), Retreat to Coralhelm, and one of the Ravnica bouncelands. And even Rith's Grove and friends aren't taplands, so you can bounce a tapped land.
Downsides are only bad until you make them into upsides.
On phasing:
While the free scry from casting a tribal card that matches the commander (or the commander itself) is free card selection, the speed of when you *might* actually cast something to scry becomes questionable.
So many decks can just run away with excessive card draw and card advantage that a scry1 isn't helpful past the setup turns.
I'm not disagreeing that the card is likely not seeing enough play, but I think it shouldn't go in just every deck to get a scry off casting the commander.
I think the usefulness is more along the lines of how many creatures in the deck match the commander, and the total # of colors of the deck. More than 8 matching creaturs? Then it is likely better than a temple. 4 or 5 color deck not running fetches and shocks? Then it's likely better than most other semi-budget lands.
Otherwise I wouldn't run it.
Granted this is based off my experiance. Most of my decks are tuned to try and participate in the game as soon as possible, and if a land comes in to play tapped, it had better make a very meaningful impact on my deck.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Strongly disagree, its not a permanent setback. It can actually accelerate you, and no one has a land drop every turn. Tap a land, drop this and bounce the tapped basic or whatever. Plus reuse ETB lands.
How come in no way? I like the lair lands since it fits a nice niche.
lair lands can bounce a land back that is tapped for mana or ability, then the lair can be tapped immediately.
Rupture spire reduces 1 mana in the first turn
Lair adds one more mana in the first turn, and then the second turn, it is the same as Rupture Spire unless you have another land in hand.
Or can use for to bounce ETB lands but generally they arent useful. But lastly, it is decent in landfall decks.
The question in one or two colors (where taplands become far more iffy) becomes how many possible triggers do you have. I mean, you're guaranteed to have at least one unless your commander's a planeswalker, since Nameless Race isn't legendary. (Hah!)
Something to remember as well:
Morphs don't count. Also, if your commander's in a hidden zone (though you can just send him/her/it/them back to the Command Zone), that's also typeless.
Tribals don't count. That's 54 cards, about half of them are playable in some deck or another, but most of them are kinda specific, or require a Sun Titan package or some such (so you won't be casting them too much).
Token generators don't count either. So, yeah, Raise the Alarm in Darien, King of Kjeldor doesn't count. Just casting creature spells. This sucks because a lot of times, if I'm playing tribal, I'm playing tokens. Why? Because giving all goblins +1/+1 is more powerful if you have a lot of goblins.
One of these days, I'll do a taxonomy of tribal effects.
On phasing:
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
At least karoos tap for 2 mana.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
So...not totally useless. I don't know if there's a Jund deck that focuses on Titania/Gitrog...but maybe there's a place for it.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Given that we're using cipt lands, Path of Ancestry seems like one of the better ones. Perfect fixing and high upside.
I have no idea how Rith's Grove&co. vs. Transguild Promenade/Rupture Spire is a point of contention. They're both terrible even as far as budget lands are concerned so it seems like people are just looking for an excuse to argue.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
The problem is that (almost) forcing you to play it as your last land means you probably aren't getting the fixing when you want it, which is usually ASAP.
Can't believe how many people I've seen play rupture spire. Man that card sucks. evolving wilds and terramorphic are also badly overused.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
-because ash barrens is worse with crucible
I mean they're all pretty weak lands. I don't think an optimum manabase should be running any of them tbh. If you're trying 5 color on a budget I'd probably run all three though (although I also probably just wouldn't do 5 color on a budget).
Sidestory: I ran into a guy a few weeks ago who was going all basics 5 color...it was a budget league of some kind, with a max value limit and where the less your deck is worth the better your tiebreakers or something. He had saved money by not buying any nonbasics for his 5c deck...and had then spent most of his allotted budget on blood moon and back to basics.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6