MTG Salvation

So, I recently built a cycle of monocolor EDH decks. Predictably, in playtest, the Sultai colored decks played fairy consistently, with a solid number of threats and answers. That said, I was surprised at how well R ended up acquitting itself. The combination of impulse draw, wheels, rituals and free topdecks actually made it a fairly fun deck to pilot, albeit a complicated and risky one.

The issue comes with W. The deck plays a couple of threats, removes some troublesome permanents and then just... stops. Inevitably, the color's lack of draw and ramp begin to catch up with you and, by the time your opponents are casting Primal Surge and Decree of Pain, you watch helplessly as you're overpowered because, after a certain point, W just runs out of things to do.

Has this been your experience too? Is the meme that R is the worst monocolor in EDH no longer true, or am I missing something here?

Imo, in recent years mono red has picked up a bit of power in edh. The weakest part was lack of card advantage, but with all of the outpost siege variants, random new wheel of fortune variants, and even recursion spells like scrap mastery and mizzix's mastery, red doesn't really hurt for card advantage. It's not nearly as broken as some other colors offer, but it isn't the issue now.

Currently (imo) reds main issue is protecting a finisher, which is more on theme for the color.


White in the other hand has absolute garbage card advantage. It has land tax and scroll rack, and just the basic artifact draw stuff. I think the best new card draw for white was the immortal sun, and a deck relying in that for card draw (being a 6 drop) is going to always make it worse than any deck that could just use faithless looting

Quote from MrTheNilbog »

So, I recently built a cycle of monocolor EDH decks. Predictably, in playtest, the Sultai colored decks played fairy consistently, with a solid number of threats and answers. That said, I was surprised at how well R ended up acquitting itself. The combination of impulse draw, wheels, rituals and free topdecks actually made it a fairly fun deck to pilot, albeit a complicated and risky one.

The issue comes with W. The deck plays a couple of threats, removes some troublesome permanents and then just... stops. Inevitably, the color's lack of draw and ramp begin to catch up with you and, by the time your opponents are casting Primal Surge and Decree of Pain, you watch helplessly as you're overpowered because, after a certain point, W just runs out of things to do.

Has this been your experience too? Is the meme that R is the worst monocolor in EDH no longer true, or am I missing something here?

I have success with Nahiri, the Lithomancer that tutor the right Sword to fight against opponent, and she is a lot less affected by mass creature removal because she gives birth to an army.

With mono white, you just need to rely more on artifacts to cover that weakness. Mind’s Eye, The Immortal Sun, Staff of Nin, Book of Rass, Tower of Fortunes all let you draw cards relatively easily. Yes they are a bit more costly cmc wise but you can adjust for that. Then there’s Emeria Shepherd, Sun Titan and Emeria, the Sky Ruin for repeatable recursion. Not too mention Mind Stone or Commandet’s Sphere with Sun Titan. It’s a select bunch of cards that could use some serious diversification but it’s not like white eventually runs out of gas perse.

Mono Red nowadays is stronger and a bit more flexible than Mono white. So in mono, Red > White. White, however, is still the better support colour, it's just not good at keeping itself afloat on its own.

Mono-red has been better than mono-white for a long time, at the very least since the daretti precon deck.

Its kind of a tough thing to balance, if you are going all out running most anything and everything then red has better combo options and the option to interact with blue via forks / red elemental blast effects which is why red is definately better when going up against rough decks.

I would say as a whole I feel white has better power in the command zone than red does maybe with a few exceptions. Red has better draw than white but ultimately it tends to be shoed into an aggro / combo color when run as a mono color where white is a little more open tending to be more midrange and control in its mono.

Both have their pros and cons and its going to depend a lot on what level of play you are playing but more recently I have found that I feel the white commanders are pulling ahead when looking at "fair" non combo / LD tactic decks (what I play with / against generally).

Hmm... maybe the issue is what I'm prioritizing for each color.

Each deck leans a little bit in the toolbox/goodstuff direction, but they all have distinct themes and goals.

U is headed by Arcanis the Omnipotent and has a focus on morph and artifacts. The game plan is to either steal an opponents big threat or spit out a bunch of face-down utility creatures with the help of some Paradox Engine shenanigans (though Thought Reflection and Psychosis Crawler are also in there as a potential wincon).

B is headed by Gonti, Lord of Luxury and is even more toolbox-y than the others, befitting (arguably) the most versatile color. It has something of a Demon tribal and devotion theme, but is mostly just trying to outvalue opponents with cards like Null Profusion, Nirkana Revenant and Magus of the Will.

R is headed by Neheb, the Eternal and plays primarily with instant/sorcery love like Past in Flames or Dualcaster Mage, egged on by a generous helping of extra combat phases.

G is headed by Omnath, Locus of Mana and plays, predictably, fast and loose with ramp. The end goal is just to resolve Primal Surge and/or Genesis Wave. It's not immensely complicated.

W is headed by Odric, Master Tactician and its gameplan is... I'm not really sure. There are cards that want enchantments like Starfield of Nyx and Celestial Ancient. There are cards that want weenies like Sun Titan and Mentor of the Meek.

Is it possible that Odric simply isn't the right man for the job? Is the problem with the themes I've chosen? Any ideas to bring it up to speed with my other decks?

When I compare mono-red to the other colors, I consider it as having the most diverse set of generals you could build around. Red has generals for all of the strategies (e.g. Artifacts, Tokens, Voltron, Combo, Aggro) but you do have to go very all-in.

Mono-W definitely seems the least "fun" to play.
1. Few card draw options
2. Few ramp options (but if you own all the expensive artifacts, this doesn't matter in any color)
3. Generals for certain strategies are lacking or just aren't the type people want to run/play with (e.g. Iona, Shield of Emeria). I played Iona b/c I liked it and the deck wasn't good but people still didn't want to play against it.
4. Other than removal, White lacks splashy effects.

If the aim is for the decks to balance roughly against each other, don't put "tap: draw 3" in one command zone and complain about a lack of card draw for the white option =/

White's strongest elements in EDH (imo) are removal, flicker effects and stax. These each have their issues; white flicker is straight up worse than GW or UW flicker by a huge margin, removal heavy decks only really function with draw to back it up or as wrath tribal, and both wrath heavy decks and stax type decks are unwelcome at the sorts of tables where people will be considering mono-white anyway.

I run a colour cycle of decks too, and of them white is the worst by leaps and bounds. 9 tails is an interesting general, as she is a mana dump for pulling shenanigans on the table when you inevitably run out of better things to do. Heliod is another good option, being a mana sink for tokens which is better than doing absolutely nothing. In your case, white's lack of gas is emphasized by it's combat focused go-wide general. I can very eaily see Odric not drawing enough creatures, getting one or more stolen by the blue deck, and then doing nothing all game.

Quote from JDviant »

Quote from MrTheNilbog »

Hmm... maybe the issue is what I'm prioritizing for each color.

Is it possible that Odric simply isn't the right man for the job? Is the problem with the themes I've chosen? Any ideas to bring it up to speed with my other decks?

Without a decklist its hard to say for certain, but Odric kind of locks you down into a very specific need to be attacking with 4 creatures to get any value out of him. Odric, Lunarch Marshal I think is the better and more flexible of the two if you want to go attacking. And W has some other really nice options. I guess it comes down to what you want it to do.

That... makes sense. I don't know why that never occurred to me. I'll give it a whirl with new!Odric in the drivers seat and share my findings.

Quote from jsNZ »

If the aim is for the decks to balance roughly against each other, don't put "tap: draw 3" in one command zone and complain about a lack of card draw for the white option =/

White's strongest elements in EDH (imo) are removal, flicker effects and stax. These each have their issues; white flicker is straight up worse than GW or UW flicker by a huge margin, removal heavy decks only really function with draw to back it up or as wrath tribal, and both wrath heavy decks and stax type decks are unwelcome at the sorts of tables where people will be considering mono-white anyway.

I run a colour cycle of decks too, and of them white is the worst by leaps and bounds. 9 tails is an interesting general, as she is a mana dump for pulling shenanigans on the table when you inevitably run out of better things to do. Heliod is another good option, being a mana sink for tokens which is better than doing absolutely nothing. In your case, white's lack of gas is emphasized by it's combat focused go-wide general. I can very eaily see Odric not drawing enough creatures, getting one or more stolen by the blue deck, and then doing nothing all game.

That's a valid point. I think it would do me some good not to think of card advantage strictly in terms of draw/tutors and to remember that token production and reanimation are also valid sources. Also, Nine-Tales is another great option! Thanks!

Quote from umtiger »

When I compare mono-red to the other colors, I consider it as having the most diverse set of generals you could build around. Red has generals for all of the strategies (e.g. Artifacts, Tokens, Voltron, Combo, Aggro) but you do have to go very all-in.

Mono-W definitely seems the least "fun" to play.
1. Few card draw options
2. Few ramp options (but if you own all the expensive artifacts, this doesn't matter in any color)
3. Generals for certain strategies are lacking or just aren't the type people want to run/play with (e.g. Iona, Shield of Emeria). I played Iona b/c I liked it and the deck wasn't good but people still didn't want to play against it.
4. Other than removal, White lacks splashy effects.

Red's downside is that it rarely plays well to later in the game. It's responses are weaker and it has a much harder time with most of its commanders recovering from a nonland sweeper. White has also been getting several card advantage commanders in more recent years like say Sram, Senior Edificer and Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. I also play Bruna, the Fading Light who is a great late game value engine / board control creature. I also played Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero for years and she also can serve as card advantage.

Mono white may be tricky but there have been a lot of colorless card advantage cards printed in the last several years. While something like The Immortal Sun might not be that impressive in green, blue, or black.... it does help mitigate some of white's issue. Its ramp is also about the same as every color that is not green given it can tutor for equipment like Sword of the Animist, and Dowsing Dagger. With all of the equipment tutors white can often push card advantage equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice and Mask of Memory better than other colors.

Quote from MrTheNilbog »

That's a valid point. I think it would do me some good not to think of card advantage strictly in terms of draw/tutors and to remember that token production and reanimation are also valid sources. Also, Nine-Tales is another great option! Thanks!

Combat is as well, though white tends to do worst here just because white creatures are smaller. (That said, on defense, first strike really captures white's collective spirit. I'm just sayin.)

But where white really shines is wipes. Black can have "a=a", white's motto is "0=0". And it just happens white has plenty of ways to grant indestructible.

(And of course there are other sources of card advantage that every color has access to, like flashback.)

I mean obviously they're playing different games, in that red is probably a lot more chaotic than white. I really enjoy mono white though. It really does need a strong draw/ramp game, but it can be a lot of fun, and can do well. I've recently played a couple of games with Bruna, the Fading Light which had people tearing their hair out, my board just wouldn't stay down.

I think building either you really need to play around their weaknesses, and this is still probably the case with white moreso than red, but neither is exempt.

I made a thread a while back arguing that WotC should add more variety (and intensity) into mono-color decks so they could stand alone and become more popular. Dominaria did a great job in creating unique mono-color legends, though mono-white remains mostly Boros-Lite, I'd love to see its elements further explored, like a legend with Fateful Hour mechanic.

Quote from cyberium_neo »

I made a thread a while back arguing that WotC should add more variety (and intensity) into mono-color decks so they could stand alone and become more popular. Dominaria did a great job in creating unique mono-color legends, though mono-white remains mostly Boros-Lite, I'd love to see its elements further explored, like a legend with Fateful Hour mechanic.

I do really like the idea of them developing more focused cards for mono-colored edh, but only if they keep within the realm of what that color is supposed to do.

I think the hardest point for development to create mono-colored focused cards is how they go about actually making it restricted to just a mono-colored deck. Sure you could make a 5cmc dedicated card cost 5 consecutive mana-symbols of the color it's for, but that won't stop 2color decks from running it, or 3+ color decks with expensive lands and chromatic lantern. Think of necropotence and how often it shows up in grixis storm decks, where even those decks' lands are island based for high tide.

If they make the card excessively expensive to cast (6+cmcsa drop) then sure it might be limited to the mono-colored deck, but if it's not a game winning card then ppl won't play it.

There would have to be a bunch if balancing implemented in designing a card like that.

Quote from Macabre »

I do really like the idea of them developing more focused cards for mono-colored edh, but only if they keep within the realm of what that color is supposed to do.

I think the hardest point for development to create mono-colored focused cards is how they go about actually making it restricted to just a mono-colored deck. Sure you could make a 5cmc dedicated card cost 5 consecutive mana-symbols of the color it's for, but that won't stop 2color decks from running it, or 3+ color decks with expensive lands and chromatic lantern. Think of necropotence and how often it shows up in grixis storm decks, where even those decks' lands are island based for high tide.

If they make the card excessively expensive to cast (6+cmcsa drop) then sure it might be limited to the mono-colored deck, but if it's not a game winning card then ppl won't play it.

There would have to be a bunch if balancing implemented in designing a card like that.

Devotion and Chroma are always good starting point.

As long as flavor fits, it's okay if a card delves outside of popular trend. For example, Feldon of the Third Path represents red's passion, their affinity for artifact, even if "reanimation" isn't always a red thing, Lore wise it suits Feldon perfectly. There may even be a Bolas follower who is WG, who chose to follow Bolas because he believed that only those with absolute power could bring absolute order and unity to multiverse.

There may even be a Bolas follower who is WG, who chose to follow Bolas because he believed that only those with absolute power could bring absolute order and unity to multiverse.

This seems really similar to the concept of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - lawful evil. It's a really interesting design space.

I REALLY liked that dig-5, pick a colored card mechanic in M19. The cards are all crazily-costed, but I still think it’s a good area for mono-colored support.

Red got more recursion and looting, which fixes hands...and helps the enhanced recursion. Then it got impulse-draw. These are options for more cards. They are good and now come in many varieties.

White received 1-for-1 support for PWs and historic cards (Board the Weatherlight actually uses my first paragraph’s mechanic instead of being a real tutor). That’s nice. It’s not the same. Maybe Militia Bugler hints that this digging will continue. I think that’s a good start.

Red is the best color in magic so of course it's better than mono white in EDH. I mean come on, what other color has Grip of Chaos?

Quote from cyberium_neo »

I made a thread a while back arguing that WotC should add more variety (and intensity) into mono-color decks so they could stand alone and become more popular. Dominaria did a great job in creating unique mono-color legends, though mono-white remains mostly Boros-Lite, I'd love to see its elements further explored, like a legend with Fateful Hour mechanic.

Fateful hour didn't test well, and it's even less relevant in EDH, since Commander identity rules exist.

White has always had two identities: Aggro (white weenie) and control (Armageddon, though they generally don't print those anymore, and yes, I know, Dominaria gave us one, for six mana, and you get two lands back per turn, which, actually could be interesting in a landfall deck, but I'd prefer to just Leyline of the Void, but white also had a lot of controllish enchantments and other permanents, so it was also Stax Lite).

The two identities are often at war with each other. If I play WW, I'm not interested in Wrath of God. (However, WW is very much interested in Armageddon.) To make matters worse, many of white's control cards are among the most "unfun" (per Maro's definition, which I disagree with, but that's for another day) control cards.

Wheel of Fortune and friends, as well as red's variety of rummaging effects, has always put mono-red above mono-white.

Quote from hyalapterouslemur »

Fateful hour didn't test well, and it's even less relevant in EDH, since Commander identity rules exist.

White has always had two identities: Aggro (white weenie) and control (Armageddon, though they generally don't print those anymore, and yes, I know, Dominaria gave us one, for six mana, and you get two lands back per turn, which, actually could be interesting in a landfall deck, but I'd prefer to just Leyline of the Void, but white also had a lot of controllish enchantments and other permanents, so it was also Stax Lite).

The two identities are often at war with each other. If I play WW, I'm not interested in Wrath of God. (However, WW is very much interested in Armageddon.) To make matters worse, many of white's control cards are among the most "unfun" (per Maro's definition, which I disagree with, but that's for another day) control cards.

Actually, white has more than just two traits and you get the second one half-right. Cards like Armageddon, Wrath, and Balance were designed to show the unbiased, unforgiving, yet equalizing side of white, which is why universal removal is prevalent within the white color pie despite its emphasis on smaller creatures. It's control, yes, but the approach is make sure everyone fall under the same state, not just the disbelievers.

On the good end, white could be healing, justice, and moral. On the bad end, white could be religious, punishing, unchanging, and dogmatic. As toctheyounger77 mentioned, Elesh Norn is a prime example how white could be used for harm, and I totally want WotC to embrace that elements more.

And I don't see why Fateful Hour cannot be useful in commander, as long as the reward justifies the challenge. A legendary creature with super powerful FH effect would be very interesting to build around, be it mono-white or Mardu.

Yes.

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The biggest issue with mono-white is that it's methods of card advantage are very restricted and only draw cards in a convoluted way. Cards like Land Tax, Alms Collector, Mentor of the Meek, Sram, Senor Edificer, Kor Spiritdancer, Sage's Reverie, Bygone Bishop, Mesa Enchantress, Puresteel Paladin, etc. are just really narrow and require a certain deck to function, and cards like Pursuit of Knowledge, Armistice, Convalescent Care, Inheritance, Martyr's Cry, etc. are just not even worth playing.

To be honest, white's card draw is mostly artifact options like Mind's Eye, Skullclamp, Staff of Nin, Farsight Mask, or Grafted Skullcap, recursion options like Sun Titan, or tribal based like Vanquisher's Bannner.

Quote from Forgotten One »

Yes.

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The biggest issue with mono-white is that it's methods of card advantage are very restricted and only draw cards in a convoluted way. Cards like Land Tax, Alms Collector, Mentor of the Meek, Sram, Senor Edificer, Kor Spiritdancer, Sage's Reverie, Bygone Bishop, Mesa Enchantress, Puresteel Paladin, etc. are just really narrow and require a certain deck to function, and cards like Pursuit of Knowledge, Armistice, Convalescent Care, Inheritance, Martyr's Cry, etc. are just not even worth playing.

To be honest, white's card draw is mostly artifact options like Mind's Eye, Skullclamp, Staff of Nin, Farsight Mask, or Grafted Skullcap, recursion options like Sun Titan, or tribal based like Vanquisher's Bannner.

While not a "draw" per se, White has very strong permanent recursion, more so than black and red since you could recur non-creature, non-artifact permanents. I also like White's emphasis on recurring smaller permanents as seen in Sun Titan and Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle, perhaps they could make more cards (even only for non-standard) like that to compensate the lack of draw. Red has impulse-draw, perhaps we could have a "delayed-draw" trend similar to Pursuit of Knowledge to symbolize reward yielded via great patience.