While I love the concept of what you guys are brewing, there are a lot of cards being discussed here that don’t do much or anything on their own. However you end up building it, beware too not make it a glass cannon that does not work without VV2.
Also surprises no one mentioned It That Betrays yet. If there’s one card that combo’s with VV2 it’s that
Yes, ultimately the deck has to function without VV2 in play, which is why I recommended other ways to "cheat" and reanimate stuff from graveyard.
I thought about It That Betrays, though at the cost of 12 it'd be best if we could reanimate it. Perhaps a new section for creature search would be feasible (Survival of the Fittest and all that).
I didn't notice until now that Imperial Seal isn't listed.
It is quite pricey but there is the foil one that is a bit more down to earth in terms of price.
Yeah... that's one reason why I didn't put it on the list, the price is horrendous, albeit powerful. I will add it now for the sake of completion.
Hmm, maybe something like Call of the Wild and/or Zoologist in case VV2 is too expensive to cast? They only work for creatures but that may be fine.
Also, if VV2 dies, he can be Reclaimed to the top then put back into play for 4 mana
Also, now that I think of it, Command Beacon would be great in this.
All good. I prefer Call of the Wild over Zoologist due to vulnerability of creature and summoning sickness. You made a fine point on how this deck's direction could potentially negate a good portion of VV2's cost.
With all the sacrificing happening, I'm surprised no one has mentioned mazirek, kraul death priest yet. They seem insane in this kind of brew.
I considered it, but this deck isn't a dedicated token deck and Mazirek is best when there's a board of creature to benefit from its effect. I often found during my playtesting that I lack "creatures" for VV2 to eat, though because I also have artifacts as viable sac targets, it wasn't a big issue. I imagine VV2 could take a token-centric approach instead of a deck emphasize on library manipulation.
Regardless, I will add it to the list. I wonder if I should also add Helm of the Host for the kek.
Seeing as the conversation mentioned It that Betrays, I may as well bring up Sneak Attack for those who go with a more creature focused build. For those more interested in cheating in fatties, some combination of manipulating your library and graveyard reanimation would probably work best.
Rancor - For one mana, always have something to sacrifice! Aspect of Mongoose - Similar to Rancor, but protects your commander while it's on. Tendershoot Dryad - One of the best token generators, and a possible win condition on its own.
The idea is that you can use a slow but steady card draw engine, by using Life from the Loam every turn, and getting your "card draws" for the turn by cycling a land(s) to get spells.
It has the advantage of filling your graveyard with targets for the "graveyard to top of library" cards that we can run.
Has the advantage of guaranteeing land drops.
Plus extra good in this deck as you have Volrath's Stronghold, Mortuary Mire which look to be great, and even Sequestered Stash, Unholy Grotto if you were to run some sort of artifact or zombie sub theme as well. There is a 3:1 ratio of getting to these cards quicker with Life from the Loam. Plus I like the extra tutor in Realms Uncharted as it becomes like a tutor for your 4 best land cards.
We have already talked about making sure the deck can be proactive in Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire absence. So it is a slow card drawing engine, like you need to spend 3-4 mana a turn to keep equilibrium with your natural draw, but obviously you can get all the advantages as pointed out. Once you get more mana then you end up cycling a couple of lands, and then you gain draw.
Why no skullclamp? I don't see it in the decklist or mentioned in the thread. It seems like an obvious choice in a deck with lots of tokens and sacrifice effects. Is there something I'm missing?
Why no skullclamp? I don't see it in the decklist or mentioned in the thread. It seems like an obvious choice in a deck with lots of tokens and sacrifice effects. Is there something I'm missing?
No there is nothing you are missing. It is a great card that works great with 1/1 token builds, or even just as the value of the bigger creature you are sacrificing. I think it was just not mentioned because in these "brew" threads people are usually looking for the bigger, sexier combos and synergy rather than the standard staples.
No there is nothing you are missing. It is a great card that works great with 1/1 token builds, or even just as the value of the bigger creature you are sacrificing. I think it was just not mentioned because in these "brew" threads people are usually looking for the bigger, sexier combos and synergy rather than the standard staples.
You are correct, which is why I didn’t mention cards like Sol Ring, that’s like a given. Thank you for clarifying.
problem with Vaevictis is you have to choose all, not up to all. If it was a may, i would love him, but he is not and thus i am not super eager to grab a copy. Sure I want one, but I do not need one. (Finding a slot in my dragon deck will also be near impossible, Took me an hour to remove Lotus Petal for Palladia-mors.
problem with Vaevictis is you have to choose all, not up to all. If it was a may, i would love him, but he is not and thus i am not super eager to grab a copy. Sure I want one, but I do not need one. (Finding a slot in my dragon deck will also be near impossible, Took me an hour to remove Lotus Petal for Palladia-mors.
Yeah, that's what makes the card fun. He will always be good if people have real threats on the board, but if they don't you "may" end up helping them.
Personally, I will be playing him without seeing my opponent's top cards, to add a little more fun into the mix; people love wondering what they will get from cards like this.
But over-all, this topic is for brewing, not for criticizing the card's usability :/
Do you have any cards in mind that would help negate the perceived drawback of his ability?
problem with Vaevictis is you have to choose all, not up to all. If it was a may, i would love him, but he is not and thus i am not super eager to grab a copy. Sure I want one, but I do not need one. (Finding a slot in my dragon deck will also be near impossible, Took me an hour to remove Lotus Petal for Palladia-mors.
Yeah, that's what makes the card fun. He will always be good if people have real threats on the board, but if they don't you "may" end up helping them.
Personally, I will be playing him without seeing my opponent's top cards, to add a little more fun into the mix; people love wondering what they will get from cards like this.
But over-all, this topic is for brewing, not for criticizing the card's usability :/
Do you have any cards in mind that would help negate the perceived drawback of his ability?
Not really. While there are benefits in the card, I Personally do not like it. Other than ways to manipulate the tops of libraries (Which is really difficult to do without blue. You can, but there is a lot less support)
You are gonna need ways to scry, you are gonna need "play with the top card of your (Or everyone's) library revealed" And you can use Necropotence to make sure you are hitting something good next. Sylvan Library is a good card for this as you don;t need to keep card in order to get the benefit.
maybe something that causes triggered abilities to trigger twice (not sure if there is a card that does that) that way if they get something good, blow it up again. (And if you are really lucky, they hit a non permanent, so you blow up two things and they get NOTHING!
Game finishers can be multiple attack phases, and you definitely want token production. (Myr Turbine and Nuisance Engine are good.)
Also I know this guy is gonna show up in my meta and just gonna really piss me off.
Also I know this guy is gonna show up in my meta and just gonna really piss me off.
Curious as to why. :3
I think even without blue it isn't too hard to manipulate top cards with green/black and artifact support. It's not Jace, the Mind Sculptor level easy, neither is it too far behind, with added advantage of extra destructive spells.
I actually did a test, pitching my Intet, the Dreamer against VV2, the game was very much "whoever attacks first wins", quite fun.
Gashnaw, you started of saying "not really" then I think your MTG-brain took over and you couldn't help suggesting cards
Honestly, I think with green and black it is maybe easier to manipulate your own topdeck than with blue. Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Volrath's Stronghold, Mortuary, Reclaim and its two near-functional reprints, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, as well as the 3 or 4 "play with top card revealed" and you are set.
What hurts for not having blue is checking your opponents topdecks. But that is the kind of oppressive control that would make VV2 an even bigger target, so personally I am avoiding it. There are a couple of solutions that opponents' topdecks, but not having blue does hurt. It also makes it more balanced, though
Gashnaw, you started of saying "not really" then I think your MTG-brain took over and you couldn't help suggesting cards
Honestly, I think with green and black it is maybe easier to manipulate your own topdeck than with blue. Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Volrath's Stronghold, Mortuary, Reclaim and its two near-functional reprints, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, as well as the 3 or 4 "play with top card revealed" and you are set.
What hurts for not having blue is checking your opponents topdecks. But that is the kind of oppressive control that would make VV2 an even bigger target, so personally I am avoiding it. There are a couple of solutions that opponents' topdecks, but not having blue does hurt. It also makes it more balanced, though
Yes it did.
and yea i was thinking of ways to manipulate opponents more than your own. Worldly Tutor, Vampiric tutor and really any tutor that brings card to the top instead of your hand can be useful (granted Imperial Seal and cruel tutor cannot be activated at instant speed so you need to do it BEFORE attacking and Liliana Vess can also pull this off.. Attack, (Sometimes they may prevent it before attacks are declared) and then with trigger on the stack, tutor. With worldly you can go put an Eldrazi on top, or blightseel. Wurmcoil engine. there a plethora of creatures you may want to warp into.
Perhpas you need something else, well that is where VT comes into play. Go get the land, artifact, Planeswalker or enchantment you need.
one question, if you are using Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire abiltiy and flip a It that betrays from the top of the deck, do the permanents of my opponents that were sacrificed with Vaevictis, are returned under my control with it that betrays the same turn? or do i have to sit a whole turn with vaevictis and it that betrays in the battlefield
one question, if you are using Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire abiltiy and flip a It that betrays from the top of the deck, do the permanents of my opponents that were sacrificed with Vaevictis, are returned under my control with it that betrays the same turn? or do i have to sit a whole turn with vaevictis and it that betrays in the battlefield
The ability states "each player who sacrificed a permanent this way" in a separate sentence. I think the permanent has to be gone already for the trigger so It That Betrays doesn't see the permanent leave.
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Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
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Yes, ultimately the deck has to function without VV2 in play, which is why I recommended other ways to "cheat" and reanimate stuff from graveyard.
I thought about It That Betrays, though at the cost of 12 it'd be best if we could reanimate it. Perhaps a new section for creature search would be feasible (Survival of the Fittest and all that).
Yeah... that's one reason why I didn't put it on the list, the price is horrendous, albeit powerful. I will add it now for the sake of completion.
Nice one, will add.
All good. I prefer Call of the Wild over Zoologist due to vulnerability of creature and summoning sickness. You made a fine point on how this deck's direction could potentially negate a good portion of VV2's cost.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I considered it, but this deck isn't a dedicated token deck and Mazirek is best when there's a board of creature to benefit from its effect. I often found during my playtesting that I lack "creatures" for VV2 to eat, though because I also have artifacts as viable sac targets, it wasn't a big issue. I imagine VV2 could take a token-centric approach instead of a deck emphasize on library manipulation.
Regardless, I will add it to the list. I wonder if I should also add Helm of the Host for the kek.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Rancor - For one mana, always have something to sacrifice!
Aspect of Mongoose - Similar to Rancor, but protects your commander while it's on.
Tendershoot Dryad - One of the best token generators, and a possible win condition on its own.
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
Graveyard to top of library:
Reclaim, Noxious Revival, Salvage, Hua Tuo, Honored Physician, Haunted Crossroads, Volrath's Stronghold, Mortuary Mire, Sequestered Stash, Unholy Grotto?
OK, so one thing I do is when looking at graveyard strategies is to do a Life from the Loam package.
For Jund GRB it would look like this:
Life from the Loam
Entomb
Realms Uncharted
Canyon Slough
Sheltered Thicket
Barren Moor
Desert of the Glorified
Polluted Mire
Desert of the Fervent
Forgotten Cave
Smoldering Crater
Desert of the Indomitable
Slippery Karst
Tranquil Thicket
Ash Barrens
Blasted Landscape
The idea is that you can use a slow but steady card draw engine, by using Life from the Loam every turn, and getting your "card draws" for the turn by cycling a land(s) to get spells.
It has the advantage of filling your graveyard with targets for the "graveyard to top of library" cards that we can run.
Has the advantage of guaranteeing land drops.
Plus extra good in this deck as you have Volrath's Stronghold, Mortuary Mire which look to be great, and even Sequestered Stash, Unholy Grotto if you were to run some sort of artifact or zombie sub theme as well. There is a 3:1 ratio of getting to these cards quicker with Life from the Loam. Plus I like the extra tutor in Realms Uncharted as it becomes like a tutor for your 4 best land cards.
This also helps with the Bloodghast, Flamewake Phoenix, Reassembling Skeleton plan of sacrifice fodder.
Then you can possible add Splendid Reclamation, World Shaper to get ahead. World Shaper can also be used to massage the top of your deck, if you have information.
I would run the old Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers, to make sure you have a good plan to pay for Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire commander tax, as I'm sure people will be ready and waiting to remove him at all costs right?
We have already talked about making sure the deck can be proactive in Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire absence. So it is a slow card drawing engine, like you need to spend 3-4 mana a turn to keep equilibrium with your natural draw, but obviously you can get all the advantages as pointed out. Once you get more mana then you end up cycling a couple of lands, and then you gain draw.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
No there is nothing you are missing. It is a great card that works great with 1/1 token builds, or even just as the value of the bigger creature you are sacrificing. I think it was just not mentioned because in these "brew" threads people are usually looking for the bigger, sexier combos and synergy rather than the standard staples.
You are correct, which is why I didn’t mention cards like Sol Ring, that’s like a given. Thank you for clarifying.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
Truly the idea of a twisted mind!
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I see what you did there -.-
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Yeah, that's what makes the card fun. He will always be good if people have real threats on the board, but if they don't you "may" end up helping them.
Personally, I will be playing him without seeing my opponent's top cards, to add a little more fun into the mix; people love wondering what they will get from cards like this.
But over-all, this topic is for brewing, not for criticizing the card's usability :/
Do you have any cards in mind that would help negate the perceived drawback of his ability?
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
Not really. While there are benefits in the card, I Personally do not like it. Other than ways to manipulate the tops of libraries (Which is really difficult to do without blue. You can, but there is a lot less support)
You are gonna need ways to scry, you are gonna need "play with the top card of your (Or everyone's) library revealed" And you can use Necropotence to make sure you are hitting something good next.
Sylvan Library is a good card for this as you don;t need to keep card in order to get the benefit.
maybe something that causes triggered abilities to trigger twice (not sure if there is a card that does that) that way if they get something good, blow it up again. (And if you are really lucky, they hit a non permanent, so you blow up two things and they get NOTHING!
Game finishers can be multiple attack phases, and you definitely want token production. (Myr Turbine and Nuisance Engine are good.)
Also I know this guy is gonna show up in my meta and just gonna really piss me off.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Curious as to why. :3
I think even without blue it isn't too hard to manipulate top cards with green/black and artifact support. It's not Jace, the Mind Sculptor level easy, neither is it too far behind, with added advantage of extra destructive spells.
I actually did a test, pitching my Intet, the Dreamer against VV2, the game was very much "whoever attacks first wins", quite fun.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Honestly, I think with green and black it is maybe easier to manipulate your own topdeck than with blue. Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Volrath's Stronghold, Mortuary, Reclaim and its two near-functional reprints, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, as well as the 3 or 4 "play with top card revealed" and you are set.
What hurts for not having blue is checking your opponents topdecks. But that is the kind of oppressive control that would make VV2 an even bigger target, so personally I am avoiding it. There are a couple of solutions that opponents' topdecks, but not having blue does hurt. It also makes it more balanced, though
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.
Yes it did.
and yea i was thinking of ways to manipulate opponents more than your own. Worldly Tutor, Vampiric tutor and really any tutor that brings card to the top instead of your hand can be useful (granted Imperial Seal and cruel tutor cannot be activated at instant speed so you need to do it BEFORE attacking and Liliana Vess can also pull this off.. Attack, (Sometimes they may prevent it before attacks are declared) and then with trigger on the stack, tutor. With worldly you can go put an Eldrazi on top, or blightseel. Wurmcoil engine. there a plethora of creatures you may want to warp into.
Perhpas you need something else, well that is where VT comes into play. Go get the land, artifact, Planeswalker or enchantment you need.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
hmmm
The ability states "each player who sacrificed a permanent this way" in a separate sentence. I think the permanent has to be gone already for the trigger so It That Betrays doesn't see the permanent leave.
Everything combos with Tombstone Stairwell.