I am considering adding scroll rack to my Oloro deck, the deck doesn' really need top deck manipulation but because I added land tax I think it would be a good 3-card draw every turn that I can pull very early game.
If I don't have land tax in play the scroll rack is basicaly one use filter and zero card advantage
My questions are:
1. should I cut sensei's divining top or run both
2. The probability of having both cards (land tax and scroll rack) really worth the slot or not?
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
This includes all ways of shuffling the deck, including fetchlands.
This includes Miracle spells and cascade spells.
Do you have any repetitive scry effects?
Do you benefit from recasting top over and over again?
Do you have any effects that untap Sensei's divining top at instant speed? If yes, then you can draw extra cards.
If Land Tax is truly the only form of interaction, then both cards are bad in my opinion, unless you have a lot of tutors and expect to get scroll rack and land tax every game (and cut top).
I play top and rack in a Maelstrom Wanderer deck with tons of library manipulation.
The only other place that I use either card is my Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest deck, which uses Top as a way to repeatedly trigger prowess if needed. There are shuffle effects and some repeatable scry effects so it is passible.
This will also make Scroll Rack a whole lot less appealing as well.
Once you can afford to get the full quota of fetch lands, plus maybe a few more tutors, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, then Top and Rack will be OK in your deck.
I advocate removing Top from all decks, since it's the worst time-waster ever.
Actually I advocate for the unbaning of the top in modern, is my all-time favourite card ever and a powerfull tool for the kind of decks I like to play
Quote from darrenhabib »
As Dunharrow pointed out you really want shuffle effects, and the easiest way to do this is the fetch lands.
I had a look though your list and you should in fact just cut Sensei's Diving Top period. It's pretty bad in your deck.
I think you (and the people satying the top is bad in my deck) are right about it, I will cut it
Thanks everyone for the answers, I really apreciate everyone of your posts
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Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Just cut Top and save everyone's time. It will be better.
I don't want to start a debate about it, but if your playgroup agrees to certain things, the top should not be a problem (time wise), and EDH is a slow format, at leat my playgroup games lasts for 1 hour or more so taking 10 secs to top is not a big deal.
In 1v1 the top may be slower, but this is a strategy game, people should be thinking, In modern I don't use the top and I take long turns because I like to think my moves and oponents posibles countermoves, I take notes about their graveyard, etc.
If you're running Necropotence then the Rack is better to move the chaff away. But over all, if you can't shuffle at will the top has greater importance IMO.
I advocate removing Top from all decks, since it's the worst time-waster ever.
Top, like Sylvan Library, played correctly, is awesome. Usually you're using shuffle effects and scry to get rid of bad cards. (Library has synergies with Thought Reflection and Alhammarret's Archive as well to basically go bonkers with "draw 5 or 6, put two back". But on the flip side, it's totally hosed by Chairman Meow.)
But I've never heard anyone complain about Library as much as they do about Top, for some reason.
Played poorly, it feels like a waste of time because the same two cards you rejected are still there. But like I said, you can also use scry or (for even more synergy) clash.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Search for Azcanta can make Top and Rack better in your deck, and you do run 22 instants and sorceries, so this is right on the statistical border hitting one on each activation.
Something to keep in mind as you keep tweaking your deck in the future.
Top, like Sylvan Library, played correctly, is awesome. Usually you're using shuffle effects and scry to get rid of bad cards. (Library has synergies with Thought Reflection and Alhammarret's Archive as well to basically go bonkers with "draw 5 or 6, put two back". But on the flip side, it's totally hosed by Chairman Meow.)
But I've never heard anyone complain about Library as much as they do about Top, for some reason.
Played poorly, it feels like a waste of time because the same two cards you rejected are still there. But like I said, you can also use scry or (for even more synergy) clash.
Sylvan Library is slightly less annoying since it can't be played literally everywhere like Top can, but is pretty close as far as amount of time wasted. If you can play Top/Library without spending more than 3 seconds per turn on it, feel free to play it, but I've personally never seen a game that had Top in it that didn't involve the rest of the table doing nothing for 5 minutes total while the guy with the Top looked at cards he'd mostly seen already.
Cards that involve one person looking at hidden information aren't fun for the rest of the table, so I try to limit playing them to cases where there's a strong synergy and the occasional tutor (where I'll try to have a general idea of what I'd tutor for before hand).
How good is rack with 1 card in hand? Now how good is top in that exact same scenario? There's your answer.
Top > Rack, not even close.
Well, how often is that the only case? If that's the only scenario that comes up, then sure. I'm quite sure that on power level Top does not just run away from Rack.
Top is nice to filter out early hands, but Scroll Rack is a pretty good later in games, where you do want the opportunity to exchange your hand for action. And if you're playing a deck with 7-9 fetchlands, racking away your hand can often lead to a shuffle effect.
Scroll Rack is quite ridiculous with Land Tax, which is the reason why the OP is asking. It does things that Sensei's Divining Top simply cannot do (i.e. putting cards from your hand into your library).
How good is rack with 1 card in hand? Now how good is top in that exact same scenario? There's your answer.
Top > Rack, not even close.
Well, how often is that the only case? If that's the only scenario that comes up, then sure. I'm quite sure that on power level Top does not just run away from Rack.
Top is nice to filter out early hands, but Scroll Rack is a pretty good later in games, where you do want the opportunity to exchange your hand for action. And if you're playing a deck with 7-9 fetchlands, racking away your hand can often lead to a shuffle effect.
Scroll Rack is quite ridiculous with Land Tax, which is the reason why the OP is asking. It does things that Sensei's Divining Top simply cannot do (i.e. putting cards from your hand into your library).
I respect your argument but the deck (linked in his sig) he's talking about has literally 6 shuffle effects in the entire deck, Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Land Tax, Polluted Delta, Marsh Flats, and Path to Exile, assuming he's killing his own things for lands for whatever reason. That means that rack isn't going to do all that much to 'draw' cards like the OP wants unless they luck or tutor into the wombo. In that case, and in the worst case scenario I mentioned prior, top kicks the poop out of rack.
On an entirely different note, top's capacity to dodge removal is not negligible. Any halfway competent table is going to recognize drawing 3 every turn with rack/tax will snowball quickly and point removal at either piece, probably the tax if they know OP don't run many fetches. That leaves him with a rack that can only be genuinely useful on its first activation; anything prior limits net gains in digging to 1 after OP exchanges a full hand once. Top always checks three and is nearly immortal. Just as good with a constant shuffle like land tax with way less possible problematic scenarios.
That's because you might have a bad memory. TBH, I just remember which cards I have and don't bother with that part.
It's less an issue for me personally because my decks tend to include plenty of card draw, so it's entirely possible I'll have two or three new cards.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I respect your argument but the deck (linked in his sig) he's talking about has literally 6 shuffle effects in the entire deck, Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Land Tax, Polluted Delta, Marsh Flats, and Path to Exile, assuming he's killing his own things for lands for whatever reason. That means that rack isn't going to do all that much to 'draw' cards like the OP wants unless they luck or tutor into the wombo. In that case, and in the worst case scenario I mentioned prior, top kicks the poop out of rack.
On an entirely different note, top's capacity to dodge removal is not negligible. Any halfway competent table is going to recognize drawing 3 every turn with rack/tax will snowball quickly and point removal at either piece, probably the tax if they know OP don't run many fetches. That leaves him with a rack that can only be genuinely useful on its first activation; anything prior limits net gains in digging to 1 after OP exchanges a full hand once. Top always checks three and is nearly immortal. Just as good with a constant shuffle like land tax with way less possible problematic scenarios.
If a deck cannot shuffle reliably, I don't see how that's a knock against Scroll Rack. With Rack, you don't have to shuffle your deck to get good uses out of it. Card-draw and being able to swap out a hand is pretty decent. And with a "constant shuffle," it is significantly stronger than Top.
Besides, the main point of playing Rack is to be able to put cards from hand into library. That would be the reason to play it over Top. And there are enough instances of that being important to decks that Rack is a different tool from Top. In a deck with just Land Tax, I feel that's enough to play Scroll Rack over Top.
If you're going to mention "competent" just remember that competent players can also destroy Top. If you're not using Top to tap and draw every now and then, then it is a weak card. Paying 1 each turn to just look at top 3 is very problematic situation to be in.
Quick frankly, Sensei's Divining Top is overrated, especially by players with lower skill and less experience.
I respect your argument but the deck (linked in his sig) he's talking about has literally 6 shuffle effects in the entire deck, Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Land Tax, Polluted Delta, Marsh Flats, and Path to Exile, assuming he's killing his own things for lands for whatever reason. That means that rack isn't going to do all that much to 'draw' cards like the OP wants unless they luck or tutor into the wombo. In that case, and in the worst case scenario I mentioned prior, top kicks the poop out of rack.
On an entirely different note, top's capacity to dodge removal is not negligible. Any halfway competent table is going to recognize drawing 3 every turn with rack/tax will snowball quickly and point removal at either piece, probably the tax if they know OP don't run many fetches. That leaves him with a rack that can only be genuinely useful on its first activation; anything prior limits net gains in digging to 1 after OP exchanges a full hand once. Top always checks three and is nearly immortal. Just as good with a constant shuffle like land tax with way less possible problematic scenarios.
If a deck cannot shuffle reliably, I don't see how that's a knock against Scroll Rack. With Rack, you don't have to shuffle your deck to get good uses out of it. Card-draw and being able to swap out a hand is pretty decent. And with a "constant shuffle," it is significantly stronger than Top.
Besides, the main point of playing Rack is to be able to put cards from hand into library. That would be the reason to play it over Top. And there are enough instances of that being important to decks that Rack is a different tool from Top. In a deck with just Land Tax, I feel that's enough to play Scroll Rack over Top.
If you're going to mention "competent" just remember that competent players can also destroy Top. If you're not using Top to tap and draw every now and then, then it is a weak card. Paying 1 each turn to just look at top 3 is very problematic situation to be in.
Quick frankly, Sensei's Divining Top is overrated, especially by players with lower skill and less experience.
I pointed out earlier how rack has diminishing returnswithout shuffle effects (in which case top > rack), OPs deck has no intrinsic need for cards on top besides the tax combo(decklist is in his sig, which you clearly haven't looked at or you'd know that point was moot and in which case top > rack) and even the most "competent"player still needs a K-grip or better to kill top, while rack dies to smelt like everything else (in which case top > rack).
The question is: "should OP cut top for rack?" Survey says Nope and so does the data.
The only question that remains is how much more redundant nonsense you're going to post in a piss-poor caricature of an argument.
I pointed out earlier how rack has diminishing returnswithout shuffle effects (in which case top > rack), OPs deck has no intrinsic need for cards on top besides the tax combo(decklist is in his sig, which you clearly haven't looked at or you'd know that point was moot and in which case top > rack) and even the most "competent"player still needs a K-grip or better to kill top, while rack dies to smelt like everything else (in which case top > rack).
The question is: "should OP cut top for rack?" Survey says Nope and so does the data.
The only question that remains is how much more redundant nonsense you're going to post in a piss-poor caricature of an argument.
What data are you referring to?
I think that since he's added Land Tax for his deck, he should play Scroll Rack. My reasoning for choosing Scroll Rack relies on it doing something that Top cannot do (i.e. put cards back in library). Putting cards back in your library is a very nice synergy with Land Tax.
I believe most instant speed artifact removal will destroy top. Most competent players just wait for the Top activation to occur first. So I do believe that Smelt also destroys Top. And why would someone waste such a premium spell like Krosan Grip on Top?
What's redundant and non-sensical, is that you insist on framing this around "how good is Rack with one card in hand?" and solely focusing on situations where it's clear Sensei's Top>Scroll Rack....Even though there are more situations than just those that you mention and the fact that it wasn't even OP's question which was about interaction with Land Tax (where Rack>Top, and it's not even close).
1. If both cards will be instantly responded to with removal (which isn't a good assumption to base arguments over in non-100%-CEDH games), I agree Top > Rack. But then again, who is doing this against an untapped Top? Players aren't afraid to remove top because of it's protection. Top just simply is not threatening enough to demand a removal spell in the first place. Using Top is a newb-tax in many games. Go ahead, pay an additional 1 each turn. You aren't on curve, you're low on action, or worse you're digging for mana or a way to be relevant in the game.
2. Will you not acknowledge Top also has diminishing returns without shuffle effects? And since you only have access to the top 3, I'll say it suffers this worse than Scroll Rack. Oloro has a built-in mechanism to draw cards. Card draw helps Scroll Rack but doesn't aid Sensei's Top.
3. OP says himself that he's not looking for top-deck manipulation. Scroll Rack is a going to be a better card draw engine for his list with Land Tax and Sensei's Top is just a cut.
I pointed out earlier how rack has diminishing returnswithout shuffle effects (in which case top > rack), OPs deck has no intrinsic need for cards on top besides the tax combo(decklist is in his sig, which you clearly haven't looked at or you'd know that point was moot and in which case top > rack) and even the most "competent"player still needs a K-grip or better to kill top, while rack dies to smelt like everything else (in which case top > rack).
The question is: "should OP cut top for rack?" Survey says Nope and so does the data.
The only question that remains is how much more redundant nonsense you're going to post in a piss-poor caricature of an argument.
What data are you referring to?
I think that since he's added Land Tax for his deck, he should play Scroll Rack. My reasoning for choosing Scroll Rack relies on it doing something that Top cannot do (i.e. put cards back in library). Putting cards back in your library is a very nice synergy with Land Tax.
I believe most instant speed artifact removal will destroy top. Most competent players just wait for the Top activation to occur first. So I do believe that Smelt also destroys Top. And why would someone waste such a premium spell like Krosan Grip on Top?
What's redundant and non-sensical, is that you insist on framing this around "how good is Rack with one card in hand?" and solely focusing on situations where it's clear Sensei's Top>Scroll Rack....Even though there are more situations than just those that you mention and the fact that it wasn't even OP's question which was about interaction with Land Tax (where Rack>Top, and it's not even close).
1. If both cards will be instantly responded to with removal (which isn't a good assumption to base arguments over in non-100%-CEDH games), I agree Top > Rack. But then again, who is doing this against an untapped Top? Players aren't afraid to remove top because of it's protection. Top just simply is not threatening enough to demand a removal spell in the first place. Using Top is a newb-tax in many games. Go ahead, pay an additional 1 each turn. You aren't on curve, you're low on action, or worse you're digging for mana or a way to be relevant in the game.
2. Will you not acknowledge Top also has diminishing returns without shuffle effects? And since you only have access to the top 3, I'll say it suffers this worse than Scroll Rack. Oloro has a built-in mechanism to draw cards. Card draw helps Scroll Rack but doesn't aid Sensei's Top.
3. OP says himself that he's not looking for top-deck manipulation. Scroll Rack is a going to be a better card draw engine for his list with Land Tax and Sensei's Top is just a cut.
Ok then, let me break this point-by-point because clearly you're still somehow not grasping the obvious.
On removal: we can agree that top is inherently more resilient than rack. Not immortal, but even a fool can keep a top around for an inordinate amount of time because it can at least possibly do SOMETHING in the face of removal. 1 top, 0 rack.
On "newb tax": they both cost one to activate, you fool. RTFC. Call it a draw, still 1-0 top.
On Card Draw: both rack and top improve with card draw and/or shuffle effects because naturally you will get to see new cards as you draw past or shuffle away the old stuff, so arguing that rack somehow has an advantage over top because of Oloro is both moronic and absurd. 1-0.
On diminishing returns: both cards suffer from diminishing returns, I never said otherwise. The potential downsides of top are simply way more marginal than those of rack, which actually becomes useless if you're already doing poorly, while top can help dig out. 2-0.
On the stupid tax/rack combo: playing a rack for the 2% chance of lucking into a fragile recall-per-turn is not a good enough reason to cut an objectively better card like top. 3-0 top, gg.
Did I cover everything? Do you feel it, Mr. Krabs? We can do this all day, you're still going to end up wrong.
Scroll Rack with decks that routinely go to 3 cards or less at certain critical moments of the game (even with card draw) is an awkward card.
I'd only run it in situations where I can confidently keep a sizable hand. Also, the understanding that the first use of scroll rack (or after a shuffle) is like "reverse looting" in that you get rid of seemingly unsuitable cards for a chance to find something more suitable is a small downside. Top tells you exactly what you are looking for on the top 3 cards and how it will synergize with the seemingly ill-suited cards in your hand.
However, the big advantage with the rack is that it digs far better if you can consistently keep 5+ card hands.
In your case, given the lack of shuffle effects, it would be reasonable to run neither.
Ok then, let me break this point-by-point because clearly you're still somehow not grasping the obvious.
On removal: we can agree that top is inherently more resilient than rack. Not immortal, but even a fool can keep a top around for an inordinate amount of time because it can at least possibly do SOMETHING in the face of removal. 1 top, 0 rack.
On "newb tax": they both cost one to activate, you fool. RTFC. Call it a draw, still 1-0 top.
On Card Draw: both rack and top improve with card draw and/or shuffle effects because naturally you will get to see new cards as you draw past or shuffle away the old stuff, so arguing that rack somehow has an advantage over top because of Oloro is both moronic and absurd. 1-0.
On diminishing returns: both cards suffer from diminishing returns, I never said otherwise. The potential downsides of top are simply way more marginal than those of rack, which actually becomes useless if you're already doing poorly, while top can help dig out. 2-0.
On the stupid tax/rack combo: playing a rack for the 2% chance of lucking into a fragile recall-per-turn is not a good enough reason to cut an objectively better card like top. 3-0 top, gg.
Did I cover everything? Do you feel it, Mr. Krabs? We can do this all day, you're still going to end up wrong.
So your "data" is just a checklist of your opinions? Okay...
I'm sure that you haven't covered everything. You could do this all day and still be wrong.
1.) You insist that I'm stupid and haven't read the OP's decklist. Since you're acutely aware of this, it suggests to me that you would advocate even for Top for shuffle-lite decks. And that's just wrong. If you're shuffle-lite, cut both. And don't lean on the stupid "1 card hand, Top>Rack" situation because a real card draw spell beats both in that situation.
Playing the normal Oloro-durdle game and/or just being an Esper deck leads to situations where you have large hand size. That favors Scroll Rack > Top. Playing Esper and aiming for a long game, why bother with pseudo-filtering the top 3 turn-after-turn for 1? Have you read the decklist? Does it look like his decklist is going to be playing the "1 card left in hand Top>Rack" kind of game? It has Reliquary Tower, Venser's Journal, Spellbook...
2.) Is Top really resilient to removal? It's only "resilient" when you aren't using it to its fullest (aka, just paying the newb-tax each turn). And it opens a window of vulnerability the moment you even want to begin abusing it. At least with Scroll Rack, I can instantly Rack away my hand and play a shuffle. Even if it gets removed, it did what I wanted it to do. Smelt on Top, will stop me from abusing my Top with Future Sight. Smelt won't stop me from Racking away a hand with Land Tax.
3.) Land Tax + Rack is pretty nice. And I'm sure it would show up more often than 2% of games (given that this is Esper with tutors) Is it a "stupid" combo just because you say so? Top is not "objectively" a better card. And even if it was, there are times where a weaker card is stronger in the right context. Like when Land Tax is one of the shuffle effects.
I mean, I'd honestly suggest other cards. But since he's going to ask Rack vs Top in this context (and not in the "1 card left in hand" scenario that you choose to lean on), then I'm suggesting Rack.
I firmly believe that Sensei's Divining Top is an easy cut for an overwhelmingly large amount of mis-built decks. It is a "staple" sacred cow because it's a 1cc artifact. It leads to players to play/build poorly. It is a do-nothing that generates zero advantage in a multiplayer format that often skews the importance of value.
And, if the OP wants to try Scroll Rack with Land Tax, Top is such an easy cut. The engine is really nice to experience a few times.
Ok then, let me break this point-by-point because clearly you're still somehow not grasping the obvious.
On removal: we can agree that top is inherently more resilient than rack. Not immortal, but even a fool can keep a top around for an inordinate amount of time because it can at least possibly do SOMETHING in the face of removal. 1 top, 0 rack.
On "newb tax": they both cost one to activate, you fool. RTFC. Call it a draw, still 1-0 top.
On Card Draw: both rack and top improve with card draw and/or shuffle effects because naturally you will get to see new cards as you draw past or shuffle away the old stuff, so arguing that rack somehow has an advantage over top because of Oloro is both moronic and absurd. 1-0.
On diminishing returns: both cards suffer from diminishing returns, I never said otherwise. The potential downsides of top are simply way more marginal than those of rack, which actually becomes useless if you're already doing poorly, while top can help dig out. 2-0.
On the stupid tax/rack combo: playing a rack for the 2% chance of lucking into a fragile recall-per-turn is not a good enough reason to cut an objectively better card like top. 3-0 top, gg.
Did I cover everything? Do you feel it, Mr. Krabs? We can do this all day, you're still going to end up wrong.
So your "data" is just a checklist of your opinions? Okay...
I'm sure that you haven't covered everything. You could do this all day and still be wrong.
1.) You insist that I'm stupid and haven't read the OP's decklist. Since you're acutely aware of this, it suggests to me that you would advocate even for Top for shuffle-lite decks. And that's just wrong. If you're shuffle-lite, cut both. And don't lean on the stupid "1 card hand, Top>Rack" situation because a real card draw spell beats both in that situation.
Playing the normal Oloro-durdle game and/or just being an Esper deck leads to situations where you have large hand size. That favors Scroll Rack > Top. Playing Esper and aiming for a long game, why bother with pseudo-filtering the top 3 turn-after-turn for 1? Have you read the decklist? Does it look like his decklist is going to be playing the "1 card left in hand Top>Rack" kind of game? It has Reliquary Tower, Venser's Journal, Spellbook...
2.) Is Top really resilient to removal? It's only "resilient" when you aren't using it to its fullest (aka, just paying the newb-tax each turn). And it opens a window of vulnerability the moment you even want to begin abusing it. At least with Scroll Rack, I can instantly Rack away my hand and play a shuffle. Even if it gets removed, it did what I wanted it to do. Smelt on Top, will stop me from abusing my Top with Future Sight. Smelt won't stop me from Racking away a hand with Land Tax.
3.) Land Tax + Rack is pretty nice. And I'm sure it would show up more often than 2% of games (given that this is Esper with tutors) Is it a "stupid" combo just because you say so? Top is not "objectively" a better card. And even if it was, there are times where a weaker card is stronger in the right context. Like when Land Tax is one of the shuffle effects.
I mean, I'd honestly suggest other cards. But since he's going to ask Rack vs Top in this context (and not in the "1 card left in hand" scenario that you choose to lean on), then I'm suggesting Rack.
I firmly believe that Sensei's Divining Top is an easy cut for an overwhelmingly large amount of mis-built decks. It is a "staple" sacred cow because it's a 1cc artifact. It leads to players to play/build poorly. It is a do-nothing that generates zero advantage in a multiplayer format that often skews the importance of value.
And, if the OP wants to try Scroll Rack with Land Tax, Top is such an easy cut. The engine is really nice to experience a few times.
I'm honestly questioning your ability to read at this point. I discussed how many nonland tutors he has earlier (2) when I mentioned all of his ahuffle effects so your "this is esper with tutors" point proves that you're working off baseless conjecture rather than the actual material provided. Furthermore, you continually ignore the fact that rack does indeed have an activation cost while ignoring the extreme likelihood that no player is going to top every turn like you tout they inevitably must. Because it looks at 3, it gives you leeway to plan ahead hence why this card is good in the first place.
I thought smelt was a sorcery. My mistake. Top still dodges sorcery speed, which beats rack dying to everything.
And yes, in a deck with 2 tutors or a deck with 12, tax/rack is hokey and ineffective. Go ahead, build yourself a Rube Goldberg sylvan library, the other guy is just going to use his 2 tutors to win on the spot. I guess that is my opinion but you could also consult the huge lack of representation of that combo in publicized lists if you want some hard data.
Either way, I'm done debating about it. The guy can play whatever he feels, my opinion has been more than adequately addressed. Top has functions, rack has functions, but I'd never advise cutting top for rack to capitalize off a statistical pipedream.
I am considering adding scroll rack to my Oloro deck, the deck doesn' really need top deck manipulation but because I added land tax I think it would be a good 3-card draw every turn that I can pull very early game.
If I don't have land tax in play the scroll rack is basicaly one use filter and zero card advantage
My questions are:
1. should I cut sensei's divining top or run both
2. The probability of having both cards (land tax and scroll rack) really worth the slot or not?
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
On phasing:
This includes all ways of shuffling the deck, including fetchlands.
This includes Miracle spells and cascade spells.
Do you have any repetitive scry effects?
Do you benefit from recasting top over and over again?
Do you have any effects that untap Sensei's divining top at instant speed? If yes, then you can draw extra cards.
If Land Tax is truly the only form of interaction, then both cards are bad in my opinion, unless you have a lot of tutors and expect to get scroll rack and land tax every game (and cut top).
I play top and rack in a Maelstrom Wanderer deck with tons of library manipulation.
The only other place that I use either card is my Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest deck, which uses Top as a way to repeatedly trigger prowess if needed. There are shuffle effects and some repeatable scry effects so it is passible.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I had a look though your list and you should in fact just cut Sensei's Diving Top period. It's pretty bad in your deck.
You only have 4 shuffle effects. Marsh Flats, Polluted Delta, Enlightened Tutor, Mystical Tutor.
This will also make Scroll Rack a whole lot less appealing as well.
Once you can afford to get the full quota of fetch lands, plus maybe a few more tutors, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, then Top and Rack will be OK in your deck.
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Feather, the Redeemed
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-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Actually I advocate for the unbaning of the top in modern, is my all-time favourite card ever and a powerfull tool for the kind of decks I like to play
I think you (and the people satying the top is bad in my deck) are right about it, I will cut it
Thanks everyone for the answers, I really apreciate everyone of your posts
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
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I don't want to start a debate about it, but if your playgroup agrees to certain things, the top should not be a problem (time wise), and EDH is a slow format, at leat my playgroup games lasts for 1 hour or more so taking 10 secs to top is not a big deal.
In 1v1 the top may be slower, but this is a strategy game, people should be thinking, In modern I don't use the top and I take long turns because I like to think my moves and oponents posibles countermoves, I take notes about their graveyard, etc.
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
Top > Rack, not even close.
Top, like Sylvan Library, played correctly, is awesome. Usually you're using shuffle effects and scry to get rid of bad cards. (Library has synergies with Thought Reflection and Alhammarret's Archive as well to basically go bonkers with "draw 5 or 6, put two back". But on the flip side, it's totally hosed by Chairman Meow.)
But I've never heard anyone complain about Library as much as they do about Top, for some reason.
Played poorly, it feels like a waste of time because the same two cards you rejected are still there. But like I said, you can also use scry or (for even more synergy) clash.
On phasing:
Something to keep in mind as you keep tweaking your deck in the future.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Cards that involve one person looking at hidden information aren't fun for the rest of the table, so I try to limit playing them to cases where there's a strong synergy and the occasional tutor (where I'll try to have a general idea of what I'd tutor for before hand).
Well, how often is that the only case? If that's the only scenario that comes up, then sure. I'm quite sure that on power level Top does not just run away from Rack.
Top is nice to filter out early hands, but Scroll Rack is a pretty good later in games, where you do want the opportunity to exchange your hand for action. And if you're playing a deck with 7-9 fetchlands, racking away your hand can often lead to a shuffle effect.
Scroll Rack is quite ridiculous with Land Tax, which is the reason why the OP is asking. It does things that Sensei's Divining Top simply cannot do (i.e. putting cards from your hand into your library).
I respect your argument but the deck (linked in his sig) he's talking about has literally 6 shuffle effects in the entire deck, Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Land Tax, Polluted Delta, Marsh Flats, and Path to Exile, assuming he's killing his own things for lands for whatever reason. That means that rack isn't going to do all that much to 'draw' cards like the OP wants unless they luck or tutor into the wombo. In that case, and in the worst case scenario I mentioned prior, top kicks the poop out of rack.
On an entirely different note, top's capacity to dodge removal is not negligible. Any halfway competent table is going to recognize drawing 3 every turn with rack/tax will snowball quickly and point removal at either piece, probably the tax if they know OP don't run many fetches. That leaves him with a rack that can only be genuinely useful on its first activation; anything prior limits net gains in digging to 1 after OP exchanges a full hand once. Top always checks three and is nearly immortal. Just as good with a constant shuffle like land tax with way less possible problematic scenarios.
It's less an issue for me personally because my decks tend to include plenty of card draw, so it's entirely possible I'll have two or three new cards.
On phasing:
If a deck cannot shuffle reliably, I don't see how that's a knock against Scroll Rack. With Rack, you don't have to shuffle your deck to get good uses out of it. Card-draw and being able to swap out a hand is pretty decent. And with a "constant shuffle," it is significantly stronger than Top.
Besides, the main point of playing Rack is to be able to put cards from hand into library. That would be the reason to play it over Top. And there are enough instances of that being important to decks that Rack is a different tool from Top. In a deck with just Land Tax, I feel that's enough to play Scroll Rack over Top.
If you're going to mention "competent" just remember that competent players can also destroy Top. If you're not using Top to tap and draw every now and then, then it is a weak card. Paying 1 each turn to just look at top 3 is very problematic situation to be in.
Quick frankly, Sensei's Divining Top is overrated, especially by players with lower skill and less experience.
I pointed out earlier how rack has diminishing returnswithout shuffle effects (in which case top > rack), OPs deck has no intrinsic need for cards on top besides the tax combo(decklist is in his sig, which you clearly haven't looked at or you'd know that point was moot and in which case top > rack) and even the most "competent"player still needs a K-grip or better to kill top, while rack dies to smelt like everything else (in which case top > rack).
The question is: "should OP cut top for rack?" Survey says Nope and so does the data.
The only question that remains is how much more redundant nonsense you're going to post in a piss-poor caricature of an argument.
What data are you referring to?
I think that since he's added Land Tax for his deck, he should play Scroll Rack. My reasoning for choosing Scroll Rack relies on it doing something that Top cannot do (i.e. put cards back in library). Putting cards back in your library is a very nice synergy with Land Tax.
I believe most instant speed artifact removal will destroy top. Most competent players just wait for the Top activation to occur first. So I do believe that Smelt also destroys Top. And why would someone waste such a premium spell like Krosan Grip on Top?
What's redundant and non-sensical, is that you insist on framing this around "how good is Rack with one card in hand?" and solely focusing on situations where it's clear Sensei's Top>Scroll Rack....Even though there are more situations than just those that you mention and the fact that it wasn't even OP's question which was about interaction with Land Tax (where Rack>Top, and it's not even close).
1. If both cards will be instantly responded to with removal (which isn't a good assumption to base arguments over in non-100%-CEDH games), I agree Top > Rack. But then again, who is doing this against an untapped Top? Players aren't afraid to remove top because of it's protection. Top just simply is not threatening enough to demand a removal spell in the first place. Using Top is a newb-tax in many games. Go ahead, pay an additional 1 each turn. You aren't on curve, you're low on action, or worse you're digging for mana or a way to be relevant in the game.
2. Will you not acknowledge Top also has diminishing returns without shuffle effects? And since you only have access to the top 3, I'll say it suffers this worse than Scroll Rack. Oloro has a built-in mechanism to draw cards. Card draw helps Scroll Rack but doesn't aid Sensei's Top.
3. OP says himself that he's not looking for top-deck manipulation. Scroll Rack is a going to be a better card draw engine for his list with Land Tax and Sensei's Top is just a cut.
Ok then, let me break this point-by-point because clearly you're still somehow not grasping the obvious.
On removal: we can agree that top is inherently more resilient than rack. Not immortal, but even a fool can keep a top around for an inordinate amount of time because it can at least possibly do SOMETHING in the face of removal. 1 top, 0 rack.
On "newb tax": they both cost one to activate, you fool. RTFC. Call it a draw, still 1-0 top.
On Card Draw: both rack and top improve with card draw and/or shuffle effects because naturally you will get to see new cards as you draw past or shuffle away the old stuff, so arguing that rack somehow has an advantage over top because of Oloro is both moronic and absurd. 1-0.
On diminishing returns: both cards suffer from diminishing returns, I never said otherwise. The potential downsides of top are simply way more marginal than those of rack, which actually becomes useless if you're already doing poorly, while top can help dig out. 2-0.
On the stupid tax/rack combo: playing a rack for the 2% chance of lucking into a fragile recall-per-turn is not a good enough reason to cut an objectively better card like top. 3-0 top, gg.
Did I cover everything? Do you feel it, Mr. Krabs? We can do this all day, you're still going to end up wrong.
I'd only run it in situations where I can confidently keep a sizable hand. Also, the understanding that the first use of scroll rack (or after a shuffle) is like "reverse looting" in that you get rid of seemingly unsuitable cards for a chance to find something more suitable is a small downside. Top tells you exactly what you are looking for on the top 3 cards and how it will synergize with the seemingly ill-suited cards in your hand.
However, the big advantage with the rack is that it digs far better if you can consistently keep 5+ card hands.
In your case, given the lack of shuffle effects, it would be reasonable to run neither.
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The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
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So your "data" is just a checklist of your opinions? Okay...
I'm sure that you haven't covered everything. You could do this all day and still be wrong.
1.) You insist that I'm stupid and haven't read the OP's decklist. Since you're acutely aware of this, it suggests to me that you would advocate even for Top for shuffle-lite decks. And that's just wrong. If you're shuffle-lite, cut both. And don't lean on the stupid "1 card hand, Top>Rack" situation because a real card draw spell beats both in that situation.
Playing the normal Oloro-durdle game and/or just being an Esper deck leads to situations where you have large hand size. That favors Scroll Rack > Top. Playing Esper and aiming for a long game, why bother with pseudo-filtering the top 3 turn-after-turn for 1? Have you read the decklist? Does it look like his decklist is going to be playing the "1 card left in hand Top>Rack" kind of game? It has Reliquary Tower, Venser's Journal, Spellbook...
2.) Is Top really resilient to removal? It's only "resilient" when you aren't using it to its fullest (aka, just paying the newb-tax each turn). And it opens a window of vulnerability the moment you even want to begin abusing it. At least with Scroll Rack, I can instantly Rack away my hand and play a shuffle. Even if it gets removed, it did what I wanted it to do. Smelt on Top, will stop me from abusing my Top with Future Sight. Smelt won't stop me from Racking away a hand with Land Tax.
3.) Land Tax + Rack is pretty nice. And I'm sure it would show up more often than 2% of games (given that this is Esper with tutors) Is it a "stupid" combo just because you say so? Top is not "objectively" a better card. And even if it was, there are times where a weaker card is stronger in the right context. Like when Land Tax is one of the shuffle effects.
I mean, I'd honestly suggest other cards. But since he's going to ask Rack vs Top in this context (and not in the "1 card left in hand" scenario that you choose to lean on), then I'm suggesting Rack.
I firmly believe that Sensei's Divining Top is an easy cut for an overwhelmingly large amount of mis-built decks. It is a "staple" sacred cow because it's a 1cc artifact. It leads to players to play/build poorly. It is a do-nothing that generates zero advantage in a multiplayer format that often skews the importance of value.
And, if the OP wants to try Scroll Rack with Land Tax, Top is such an easy cut. The engine is really nice to experience a few times.
I'm honestly questioning your ability to read at this point. I discussed how many nonland tutors he has earlier (2) when I mentioned all of his ahuffle effects so your "this is esper with tutors" point proves that you're working off baseless conjecture rather than the actual material provided. Furthermore, you continually ignore the fact that rack does indeed have an activation cost while ignoring the extreme likelihood that no player is going to top every turn like you tout they inevitably must. Because it looks at 3, it gives you leeway to plan ahead hence why this card is good in the first place.
I thought smelt was a sorcery. My mistake. Top still dodges sorcery speed, which beats rack dying to everything.
And yes, in a deck with 2 tutors or a deck with 12, tax/rack is hokey and ineffective. Go ahead, build yourself a Rube Goldberg sylvan library, the other guy is just going to use his 2 tutors to win on the spot. I guess that is my opinion but you could also consult the huge lack of representation of that combo in publicized lists if you want some hard data.
Either way, I'm done debating about it. The guy can play whatever he feels, my opinion has been more than adequately addressed. Top has functions, rack has functions, but I'd never advise cutting top for rack to capitalize off a statistical pipedream.