Hello, one player in my playgroup is building a gaddock teeg deck , he wants to combine hime with Brisela, Voice of Nightmares so we are not able to cast any spells at all (his deck will be 30+ lands and the rest creatures)
I may add Nevermore and Meddling mage to counter that strategy but I really pefer not to.
I mean, both cards (mage and nevermore) are very opresive and I will be using those just for teeg, if not I wouldnt ever think about those.
What would you suggest to fight an early gadock lock? (off coursa that I will be saving the path to exile or any exile removal for any of the brisela pieces)
Having both played Gaddock Teeg and against him lots, it is a tricky business playing around him. The thing with removal like Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, is that you really need to setup for a turn where you can do a lot, because at such a low commander cost, it can just get played out again next turn, and you're back in the lock.
Is it your Oloro, Ageless Ascetic in your signature? Having some static abilities that can deal 2 damage is another route you could look at, but esper not so great for that. If it is look to swap out a Fumigate type wrath for Toxic Deluge, which can be cast under Gaddock.
Cyclonic Rift / Oblivion Stone are both very strong cards as well. You cant cast them once he is completely set up with all of that but that said.... they tend to be strong cards against teeg in general.
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Cyclonic Rift / Oblivion Stone are both very strong cards as well. You cant cast them once he is completely set up with all of that but that said.... they tend to be strong cards against teeg in general.
But cyclonic doesnt count as 7cmc when we cast with overload?
Is it your Oloro, Ageless Ascetic in your signature? Having some static abilities that can deal 2 damage is another route you could look at, but esper not so great for that. If it is look to swap out a Fumigate type wrath for Toxic Deluge, which can be cast under Gaddock.
You are right, fumigate will be replaced for toxic
Cyclonic Rift / Oblivion Stone are both very strong cards as well. You cant cast them once he is completely set up with all of that but that said.... they tend to be strong cards against teeg in general.
But cyclonic doesnt count as 7cmc when we cast with overload?
Overload is an alternative cost, the CMC of the card is still 2. Think about how cycling works. The card has another ability that lets you discard and draw. The CMC doesn't change because the ability costs mana. Which is why even though you can cast Cyclonic Rift for 7 mana, it's CMC is still 2.
It baffles me how people continue to have issues with this card.
It is rare that it will affect more than 8 cards in any deck I build, and never my removal.
Most of the time, you should be able to simply ignore it. When it becomes an issue, rrmove it for the turn.
If you consistently have issues with Teeg, you are not playing enough removal, playing it correctly, or your curve is way to high. Or more likely all of the above.
If Gaddock hits too many of your answers you need better or more varied answers. Probably add more cheap single target removal (Esper has a ton of good options) and cut some of the expensive wrath effects.
As for this lock, have you actually played against it? I wouldn't be too worried about a 3 creature, 13 mana, sorcery speed lock that doesn't win on the spot or have any effect on the board state. I don't think you need specific hate cards to prevent this lock most of the time, just more efficient answers.
It baffles me how people continue to have issues with this card.
It is rare that it will affect more than 8 cards in any deck I build, and never my removal.
Most of the time, you should be able to simply ignore it. When it becomes an issue, rrmove it for the turn.
If you consistently have issues with Teeg, you are not playing enough removal, playing it correctly, or your curve is way to high. Or more likely all of the above.
It baffles me how people don't read the thread properly as it's not just Gaddock giving the issues here; it's the combination of Gaddock AND Brisela that makes things hard. Brisela shuts down most spot removal and valuetown cards, while Gaddock makes board wiping into a tricky proposition. Either on their own are perfectly fair and fine cards. Combined they shut down about 75-85% of cards played in average EDH decks.
Anyway, some creature options that have not yet been named: Duplicant, Luminate Primordial and Phyrexian Ingester help to permanently deal with one of them, Noxious Gearhulk is a less powerful but still good option (just beware revival) and if hexproof/indestructible gets thrown in the mix, Ixidron still deals with the whole board. Cataclysmic Gearhulk, in the meantime, can deal with at least part of the board, though they'll likely just sac the Teeg and then bring it back for a low price.
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Exiling either Gisela or Bruna permanently solves the problem, as they are not his commanders. I assume you already run swords and path, Dissipate works as well. Praetor's Grasp also works wonders here: just take one of the two from his deck and he will spend the game hoping to find the other half which is not in his deck anymore.
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Since we're talking pre-emptive measures(I keep forgetting about them...>.<), Sadistic Sacrament and Jester's Cap are other options, adding in removing what else he may have in his deck for comboing off.
Throwing money at the card is also an option...temporary, but it is.
In my experience playing Teeg, against most decks he mostly stops people from casting board wipes and finisher spells. (And with board wipe/finisher creatures, that's not even universally true!) The real problem is a melded Brisela, which stops the cheap removal spells people always encourage you to play to be more competitive.
Fortunately, permanently getting rid of either half of Brisela in any way means Brisela never happens.
If your friend is building a Teeg deck, though, be on the lookout for other hate cards that can slow you down or stop you. Void Winnower is another nasty one that cuts out half your options for answers. And I have managed Teeg+Winnower+Brisela+Rule of Law+Spirit of the Labyrinth+Torpor Orb in my Teeg deck before.
You're playing Oloro, right? Dude, you're in blue. You have counters.
Beyond that, you can leave a removal open to deal with Bruna or Gisela the turn they come out. I'm also fond of Aven Mindcensor, which gets around Teeg by virtue of being a creature, so your opponent can't just Tooth and Nail them out. The usual graveyard hate can keep them from being reanimated by Living Death: Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, leaving Nihil Spellbomb out, or just flash in Containment Priest when you need her.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think this is the best option as it works against both pieces of the lock. Assuming you have some of the other answers mentioned, you should be able to get out from the lock.
I think this is the best option as it works against both pieces of the lock. Assuming you have some of the other answers mentioned, you should be able to get out from the lock.
Counterspells are also good
You realize "chupacabra" comes from the Spanish chupar, meaning "to suck", right? (Basically, they're vampires that prey on goats. Also, they're Puerto Rican originally, not Mexican, but whatever.)
I did mention counterspells. ("Dude, you're in blue.")
I play Stax a lot, so knowing my own cards' weaknesses (especially for symmetrical effects) is important just to break the symmetry. Beyond that, I have a philosophy of knowing all of my deck's weaknesses, and the probability of seeing them.
I really like Aven Mindcensor just because it stops ramp and fetchlands and forces combo players to earn their victory. It also means a Tooth and Nail or, actually, Final Parting is great for Brisela, now that I think about it, has to get both cards in those four cards. Or you have to have Mirari out or something; then you can grab eight cards.
@3drinks: The Teeg lock is Gaddock Teeg and Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. Get these two (three, really) out and you can only play creatures with CMC 4 or greater. If you really want to be evil, you can throw in Void Winnower so that their CMC must be 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, or 15.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I may add Nevermore and Meddling mage to counter that strategy but I really pefer not to.
I mean, both cards (mage and nevermore) are very opresive and I will be using those just for teeg, if not I wouldnt ever think about those.
What would you suggest to fight an early gadock lock? (off coursa that I will be saving the path to exile or any exile removal for any of the brisela pieces)
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Gaddock Teeg doesn't stop creature spells, so you can still cast things like Duplicant, Shriekmaw, and Angel of Serenity. Or you can bounce Teeg with Venser, Shaper Savant or Mist RAven and destroy Brisela when it is unprotected. You can also steal one of them with Sower of Temptation or Roil Elemental.
Is it your Oloro, Ageless Ascetic in your signature? Having some static abilities that can deal 2 damage is another route you could look at, but esper not so great for that. If it is look to swap out a Fumigate type wrath for Toxic Deluge, which can be cast under Gaddock.
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But cyclonic doesnt count as 7cmc when we cast with overload?
I dont really want to decline, I prefer to modify my deck to counter his hosing
Decree is great, I will be adding it with toxic deluge
You are right, fumigate will be replaced for toxic
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
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Overload is an alternative cost, the CMC of the card is still 2. Think about how cycling works. The card has another ability that lets you discard and draw. The CMC doesn't change because the ability costs mana. Which is why even though you can cast Cyclonic Rift for 7 mana, it's CMC is still 2.
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It is rare that it will affect more than 8 cards in any deck I build, and never my removal.
Most of the time, you should be able to simply ignore it. When it becomes an issue, rrmove it for the turn.
If you consistently have issues with Teeg, you are not playing enough removal, playing it correctly, or your curve is way to high. Or more likely all of the above.
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One more suggestion for wrath effects that get under Gaddock is Bontu's Last Reckoning.
As for this lock, have you actually played against it? I wouldn't be too worried about a 3 creature, 13 mana, sorcery speed lock that doesn't win on the spot or have any effect on the board state. I don't think you need specific hate cards to prevent this lock most of the time, just more efficient answers.
It baffles me how people don't read the thread properly as it's not just Gaddock giving the issues here; it's the combination of Gaddock AND Brisela that makes things hard. Brisela shuts down most spot removal and valuetown cards, while Gaddock makes board wiping into a tricky proposition. Either on their own are perfectly fair and fine cards. Combined they shut down about 75-85% of cards played in average EDH decks.
Anyway, some creature options that have not yet been named: Duplicant, Luminate Primordial and Phyrexian Ingester help to permanently deal with one of them, Noxious Gearhulk is a less powerful but still good option (just beware revival) and if hexproof/indestructible gets thrown in the mix, Ixidron still deals with the whole board. Cataclysmic Gearhulk, in the meantime, can deal with at least part of the board, though they'll likely just sac the Teeg and then bring it back for a low price.
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Throwing money at the card is also an option...temporary, but it is.
You can also make him not even, for a bit of breathing room.
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Fortunately, permanently getting rid of either half of Brisela in any way means Brisela never happens.
If your friend is building a Teeg deck, though, be on the lookout for other hate cards that can slow you down or stop you. Void Winnower is another nasty one that cuts out half your options for answers. And I have managed Teeg+Winnower+Brisela+Rule of Law+Spirit of the Labyrinth+Torpor Orb in my Teeg deck before.
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Beyond that, you can leave a removal open to deal with Bruna or Gisela the turn they come out. I'm also fond of Aven Mindcensor, which gets around Teeg by virtue of being a creature, so your opponent can't just Tooth and Nail them out. The usual graveyard hate can keep them from being reanimated by Living Death: Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, leaving Nihil Spellbomb out, or just flash in Containment Priest when you need her.
If they're already out, Lurking Chupacabra is nice. As is Mageta the Lion. And Luminate Primordial, come to think of it.
On phasing:
I think you linked the wrong chupathingy.
I think this is the best option as it works against both pieces of the lock. Assuming you have some of the other answers mentioned, you should be able to get out from the lock.
Counterspells are also good
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You realize "chupacabra" comes from the Spanish chupar, meaning "to suck", right? (Basically, they're vampires that prey on goats. Also, they're Puerto Rican originally, not Mexican, but whatever.)
I did mention counterspells. ("Dude, you're in blue.")
I play Stax a lot, so knowing my own cards' weaknesses (especially for symmetrical effects) is important just to break the symmetry. Beyond that, I have a philosophy of knowing all of my deck's weaknesses, and the probability of seeing them.
I really like Aven Mindcensor just because it stops ramp and fetchlands and forces combo players to earn their victory. It also means a Tooth and Nail or, actually, Final Parting is great for Brisela, now that I think about it, has to get both cards in those four cards. Or you have to have Mirari out or something; then you can grab eight cards.
@3drinks: The Teeg lock is Gaddock Teeg and Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. Get these two (three, really) out and you can only play creatures with CMC 4 or greater. If you really want to be evil, you can throw in Void Winnower so that their CMC must be 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, or 15.
On phasing: