So with the reveal of Firesong and Sunspeaker I am torn. On one hand this guy looks amazing. I like burn and this one gives me a chnace to go ham with burn spells. Granted this guy will be much better in Duel so I may make him Duel only. (Plus i have an Aurelia, the Warleader deck already)
I also may go slight pillow fort and bank on cards like Test of Endurance and Felidar Sovereign But the real key here is burning my opponent to death. Red has an unprecedented amount of burn available. Like Lightning Bolt, Shock, Incinerate. But we also have Mass burn effects like Earthquake (As the damage dealt will be returned to me, tenfold. I will also be looking at R/W burn spells as something like Lightning Helix will not only next me 6 life, but do 6 damage to my opponent. I am also going to look at card like Furnace of Rath and Dictate of the Twin Gods (I believe double damage would mean that lightning bolt would gain me 6 life)
Of course I will keep some life gain white spells, but I don;t think i will be the best bet. Seems like it would be a wasted slot when I can burn much easier.
Primary issue for the deck is how you can keep your commander available in a reliable way. This is a 6 CMC commander in the color combination with the worst ramp available. After 1 or 2 kills, your commander becomes very hard to keep on the board. Therefore, I think you should invest heavily in equipment that keeps them alive, as well as perhaps stuff like Gift of Immortality.
Searing Meditation seems like a nice way to get some extra mileage out of any lifegain effects you have. Firemane Angel might also fit.
My choice is to go relatively rampy and draw-heavy - fewer spells in deck, but I'll get to cast more of them in a game. Rather burn out than simmer down, after all.
Sides that, going somewhat 'red spellslinger', using whatever I can to get extra mileage out of every instant and sorcery I cast.
Main spell base will be red things that burn / white things that gain life WHILE also doing something besides that. With the exception of damage spells that happen to be both colors, those are too tasty to not use.
Some choice picks: Pyromancer's Swath (my build has enough 'draw a card in upkeep/draw step' to maybe get away with this) Pyromancer's Gauntlet (same deal but without the downside) Strionic Resonator (aside from it being 2, tap: bolt on the minotaurs themselves, it works with quite a few other creatures) Rhox Faithmender (unassuming enough, but can get me a LOT of life during a game) Satyr Firedancer (will most likely pay itself back very quickly in terms of damage spun around) Balefire Liege and Searing Meditation (more of the thing I am already doing) Charmbreaker Devils (screams 'kill me now', which is at the very least one kill spell not going for my commander - more likely a couple of rounds of recursion) Volcanic Vision (recursion and a completely bonkers amount of lifegain tacked onto a one-sided boardwipe - don't mind if I do) Molten Psyche (odds are I will have metalcraft anyway, and it can be potentially lethal to the 'no max hand size' blue-green player) Star of Extinction (well... yes?)
Blaze Commando (another lovely thing for people to either kill or deal with the consequences) Hour of Devastation (5 is a very handy amount of damage to deal around, and it gets rid of those indestructibles too) Acidic Soil (can outright end the game if we're in the double digits of turns, but handily leaves my life total intact) Repeating Barrage/Thunderblade Charge/Hammer of Bogardan (should get me a decent mileage given that I am going moderately rampy) Sun's Bounty (a techy thing I am trying out, but at least in theory I'll see this cast a fair few times) Light of Sanction (much like Mark of Asylum, keeps my things alive from my damage board wipes)
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Don't forget Price of Progress (cheap and does a decent amount of damage), and Personal Sanctuary which works well with all the Earthquake effects. Sword of War and Peace and Fire and Ice give the general protection from Earthquakes as well.
Don't forget Price of Progress (cheap and does a decent amount of damage), and Personal Sanctuary which works well with all the Earthquake effects. Sword of War and Peace and Fire and Ice give the general protection from Earthquakes as well.
Wouldn;t the earthquake damage dealt to me be negated anyway (In the end balancing out at 0 since i gain the same amount of life I loss, or would lifelink not work like that?)
It would, but it also works when the commander is not on the battlefield, and since they are a 6 cmc commander with a build-around ability that tells your opponents exactly what they do and that they should be killed before they benefit from it, that can happen pretty often.
It does work like that. You won't even die if the damage is greater than your life total. I guess personal sanctuary protects you if your commander dies though.
don't forget magebane armor also protects from damage wipes.
I am pretty sure these don't work; the spells set up a triggered ability and it is the ability that gains you the life, not the spell. They won't actually trigger F&S's ability at all, and are generally bad inclusions.
Don't sleep on Brightflame. Brightflame (as well as Lightning Helix and Warleader's Helix) actually trigger F&S twice - once for the lifegain on the card, and once for the lifelink rider attached to the damage. You can double-dip with Deflecting Palm, Fire at Will, and Aurelia's Fury as well, although it won't net 6 damage off of F&S.
Given the prepondeance of instants you want to run, a set-up involving mana rocks, Unwinding Clock, and Sunforger sounds golden.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I am pretty sure these don't work; the spells set up a triggered ability and it is the ability that gains you the life, not the spell. They won't actually trigger F&S's ability at all, and are generally bad inclusions.
Don't sleep on Brightflame. Brightflame (as well as Lightning Helix and Warleader's Helix) actually trigger F&S twice - once for the lifegain on the card, and once for the lifelink rider attached to the damage. You can double-dip with Deflecting Palm, Fire at Will, and Aurelia's Fury as well, although it won't net 6 damage off of F&S.
Given the prepondeance of instants you want to run, a set-up involving mana rocks, Unwinding Clock, and Sunforger sounds golden.
That does sound good. i might throw together a deck by 4:00 PM tomorrow and have a play test with F&S. (gonna have to proxy quite a few things though.)
EDIT: NOPE, too many things needing to be proxied.
I am pretty sure these don't work; the spells set up a triggered ability and it is the ability that gains you the life, not the spell. They won't actually trigger F&S's ability at all, and are generally bad inclusions.
Don't sleep on Brightflame. Brightflame (as well as Lightning Helix and Warleader's Helix) actually trigger F&S twice - once for the lifegain on the card, and once for the lifelink rider attached to the damage. You can double-dip with Deflecting Palm, Fire at Will, and Aurelia's Fury as well, although it won't net 6 damage off of F&S.
Given the prepondeance of instants you want to run, a set-up involving mana rocks, Unwinding Clock, and Sunforger sounds golden.
That does sound good. i might throw together a deck by 4:00 PM tomorrow and have a play test with F&S. (gonna have to proxy quite a few things though.)
EDIT: NOPE, too many things needing to be proxied.
Sad day. To answer your other question, there is only two lifegain spells I would remotely consider running: Survival Cache, since it can replace itself and auto-recast to end up netting 2 cards, 6 damage, and 4 life over two turns, and Reaping the Rewards (risky late-game value engine once your commander is in play). Otherwise, I am far more interested in gaining life off of my Lightning Bolts and Flame Rifts and Mizzium Mortars than I am in adding a 'bolt onto my Renewed Faith and Sanguine Sacrament and Congregate, since the burn is good at all times and the lifegain is only good (and just barely that) if the commander is on the board.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I am pretty sure these don't work; the spells set up a triggered ability and it is the ability that gains you the life, not the spell. They won't actually trigger F&S's ability at all, and are generally bad inclusions.
Folks on reddit seem to believe these combos work. The key point is rule 603.7d:
"If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved."
I am pretty sure these don't work; the spells set up a triggered ability and it is the ability that gains you the life, not the spell. They won't actually trigger F&S's ability at all, and are generally bad inclusions.
Folks on reddit seem to believe these combos work. The key point is rule 603.7d:
"If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved."
Fascinating. That does indeed seem to mean Spiritualize is an instant "I Win" and Samite Ministration is a less-good infinite life, which is spicy.
Don't play white spells at all just play Eight-and-a-Half-Tails and make all the Bolts white which is basically 1 = 3 more Damage
They'd no longer be red, so no more lifelink.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I am pretty sure these don't work; the spells set up a triggered ability and it is the ability that gains you the life, not the spell. They won't actually trigger F&S's ability at all, and are generally bad inclusions.
Folks on reddit seem to believe these combos work. The key point is rule 603.7d:
"If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved."
Fascinating. That does indeed seem to mean Spiritualize is an instant "I Win" and Samite Ministration is a less-good infinite life, which is spicy.
I am a little confused. How does spiritulaize = "I WIN" (Do I have to use with a life gain spell?)
You just need FS&SS to deal damage. Once you do Spiritualize triggers, gaining you that much life. Because the source of that lifegain is a white instant or sorcery your commander triggers dealing 3. Which triggers Spiritualize which triggers commander which triggers... Its sort of like the Niv/Curiosity loop.
I am a little confused. How does spiritulaize = "I WIN" (Do I have to use with a life gain spell?)
You just need FS&SS to deal damage. Once you do Spiritualize triggers, gaining you that much life. Because the source of that lifegain is a white instant or sorcery your commander triggers dealing 3. Which triggers Spiritualize which triggers commander which triggers... Its sort of like the Niv/Curiosity loop.
Apparently that does not work. Went to the rules forum and they explained that it doesn't work they way we want it to.
I'm trying to let the reddit folks know. We haven't received official confirmation yet, but I think it's fair to conclude its not going to work. For one thing, a "spell" is a card (or card copy) on the stack. And we have this ruling: "Firesong and Sunspeaker's last ability doesn't trigger if a white instant or sorcery card that isn't a spell causes you to gain life, such as the triggered ability of Renewed Faith when it's cycled."
I also may go slight pillow fort and bank on cards like Test of Endurance and Felidar Sovereign But the real key here is burning my opponent to death. Red has an unprecedented amount of burn available. Like Lightning Bolt, Shock, Incinerate. But we also have Mass burn effects like Earthquake (As the damage dealt will be returned to me, tenfold. I will also be looking at R/W burn spells as something like Lightning Helix will not only next me 6 life, but do 6 damage to my opponent. I am also going to look at card like Furnace of Rath and Dictate of the Twin Gods (I believe double damage would mean that lightning bolt would gain me 6 life)
Of course I will keep some life gain white spells, but I don;t think i will be the best bet. Seems like it would be a wasted slot when I can burn much easier.
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Searing Meditation seems like a nice way to get some extra mileage out of any lifegain effects you have. Firemane Angel might also fit.
Mark of Asylum seems like an auto-include, as is Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I guess boros charm is also a good bet.
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Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots at least keep you safe from spot removal and require your opponents to board wipe, hence losing stuff of their own, just to get rid of your commander.
An instant speed Teferi's Protection, Boros Charm, Eerie Interlude, Ghostway, Faith's Reward, Make a Stand or Rootborn Defenses can turn board wipes into one-sided ones in your favor, so i'd choose them instead. Plus, they could go into a Sunforger package. Which you propably should include anyhow with that commander.
A more casual approach would be cheating on commander tax by simply reanimating instead of recasting your commander (or other utility creatures).
With Angelic Renewal, Defy Death, False Defeat, Karmic Guide, Marshal's Anthem, Miraculous Recovery and Resurrection there are a few options you could go for.
Sides that, going somewhat 'red spellslinger', using whatever I can to get extra mileage out of every instant and sorcery I cast.
Main spell base will be red things that burn / white things that gain life WHILE also doing something besides that. With the exception of damage spells that happen to be both colors, those are too tasty to not use.
Some choice picks:
Pyromancer's Swath (my build has enough 'draw a card in upkeep/draw step' to maybe get away with this)
Pyromancer's Gauntlet (same deal but without the downside)
Strionic Resonator (aside from it being 2, tap: bolt on the minotaurs themselves, it works with quite a few other creatures)
Rhox Faithmender (unassuming enough, but can get me a LOT of life during a game)
Satyr Firedancer (will most likely pay itself back very quickly in terms of damage spun around)
Balefire Liege and Searing Meditation (more of the thing I am already doing)
Charmbreaker Devils (screams 'kill me now', which is at the very least one kill spell not going for my commander - more likely a couple of rounds of recursion)
Volcanic Vision (recursion and a completely bonkers amount of lifegain tacked onto a one-sided boardwipe - don't mind if I do)
Molten Psyche (odds are I will have metalcraft anyway, and it can be potentially lethal to the 'no max hand size' blue-green player)
Star of Extinction (well... yes?)
Blaze Commando (another lovely thing for people to either kill or deal with the consequences)
Hour of Devastation (5 is a very handy amount of damage to deal around, and it gets rid of those indestructibles too)
Acidic Soil (can outright end the game if we're in the double digits of turns, but handily leaves my life total intact)
Repeating Barrage/Thunderblade Charge/Hammer of Bogardan (should get me a decent mileage given that I am going moderately rampy)
Sun's Bounty (a techy thing I am trying out, but at least in theory I'll see this cast a fair few times)
Light of Sanction (much like Mark of Asylum, keeps my things alive from my damage board wipes)
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Also, with the cost of your commander i'd consider a few one sided spells, like Mizzium Mortars and Volcanic Vision.
Other than there are a few mana-efficient spells such as Blasphemous Act, Chain Reaction, Hour of Devastation and Price of Progress (maybe + Isochron Scepter for the lols).
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Wouldn;t the earthquake damage dealt to me be negated anyway (In the end balancing out at 0 since i gain the same amount of life I loss, or would lifelink not work like that?)
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Redundancy is important.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
don't forget magebane armor also protects from damage wipes.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I am pretty sure these don't work; the spells set up a triggered ability and it is the ability that gains you the life, not the spell. They won't actually trigger F&S's ability at all, and are generally bad inclusions.
Don't sleep on Brightflame. Brightflame (as well as Lightning Helix and Warleader's Helix) actually trigger F&S twice - once for the lifegain on the card, and once for the lifelink rider attached to the damage. You can double-dip with Deflecting Palm, Fire at Will, and Aurelia's Fury as well, although it won't net 6 damage off of F&S.
Given the prepondeance of instants you want to run, a set-up involving mana rocks, Unwinding Clock, and Sunforger sounds golden.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
That does sound good. i might throw together a deck by 4:00 PM tomorrow and have a play test with F&S. (gonna have to proxy quite a few things though.)
EDIT: NOPE, too many things needing to be proxied.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Sad day. To answer your other question, there is only two lifegain spells I would remotely consider running: Survival Cache, since it can replace itself and auto-recast to end up netting 2 cards, 6 damage, and 4 life over two turns, and Reaping the Rewards (risky late-game value engine once your commander is in play). Otherwise, I am far more interested in gaining life off of my Lightning Bolts and Flame Rifts and Mizzium Mortars than I am in adding a 'bolt onto my Renewed Faith and Sanguine Sacrament and Congregate, since the burn is good at all times and the lifegain is only good (and just barely that) if the commander is on the board.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Folks on reddit seem to believe these combos work. The key point is rule 603.7d:
"If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved."
Fascinating. That does indeed seem to mean Spiritualize is an instant "I Win" and Samite Ministration is a less-good infinite life, which is spicy.
Sure, but then you don't get the lifelink - probably worth it for conventional Abrade or Lightning Bolt, but I'd rather gain disgusting life off of my Mizzium Mortars and Flame Waves and Brightflames.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
They'd no longer be red, so no more lifelink.
On phasing:
I am a little confused. How does spiritulaize = "I WIN" (Do I have to use with a life gain spell?)
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
You just need FS&SS to deal damage. Once you do Spiritualize triggers, gaining you that much life. Because the source of that lifegain is a white instant or sorcery your commander triggers dealing 3. Which triggers Spiritualize which triggers commander which triggers... Its sort of like the Niv/Curiosity loop.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Apparently that does not work. Went to the rules forum and they explained that it doesn't work they way we want it to.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I mean the deck is still going to be aggressively simple to build, but at least it could be fun to play.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6