As I intimated in your Phelddagrif thread (which is boss, by the way), I think you're underestimating Negate. The most dangerous spells in EDH are largely noncreatures and being able to stop them cold for only two mana is incredible. As I'm sure you're aware, Negate is the kind of card that increases in quality the higher you move up on the competitive ladder, as mana costs and universality become more relevant. Obviously it's no Mana Drain, and you'd have to be on The Good ***** ® to think otherwise, but I think it's a lot better than the following from your list:
Delay (same CMC, but Negate hard counters rather than, well, delays)
Dream Fracture (Negate has a lower CMC despite card disadvantage]
Commandeer (potentially wins games but also loses games due to extremely awkward casting costs)
Remand (doesn't actually prevent the spell from resolving, putting it more in Memory Lapse tempo territory)
I'm not saying it's top 5 (hint: it's not) but I think it's certainly worth a look if you're in the mood for a heavily blue-based control deck. I would say it's better than most 3 CMC counters, with someobviousexceptions.
While I'm here I'm gonna go ahead and say Exclude is a wonderful hidden gem. Anyone who has played Pauper understands the power of this card. You are guaranteed to have juicy targets for it in EDH, and with only 1713 inclusions on EDHREC I feel comfortable saying it's hidden. As for it being a gem, well, a significantly easier to cast Dismiss that will always have a relevant target is golden as far as I'm concerned.
Ultimately I think it depends a lot on what your plan looks like - for phelddagrif, for example, I'm very comfortable with expensive, high-value counters because I plan to leave up lots of mana. For more aggressive decks (i.e. marchesa) I'm more likely to focus on efficiency. Also worth considering what you're most afraid of - if you're worried about board wipes, for example, negate becomes better. If you generally lack blockers, creatures are more likely to be threatening. etc. etc.
Anyway it's not an uninteresting discussion, but I think my broader point is basically proven. Getting agreement over what is and isn't a hidden gem is difficult to say the least.
Countersquall's downside (requiring two different colors of mana) far outweighs its upside (2 life lost). Negate is miles better.
This. One hundred times this. Countersquall is a trap.
While it looks like a strictly better Negate on the surface, Countersquall is so much worse in practice. The life loss rider is just so irrelevant in multiplayer games with 40 point life totals, not to mention the sorts of decks that do play countermagic won't even always care about the life loss. Holding open UB is just so much more demanding than 1U. It can really make the difference between playing some other color intensive spell and holding open countermagic. Those sorts of circumstances aren't worth the paltry amount of life Countersquall causes opponents to lose. Negate is the superior spell.
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Negate is among my counterspells of choice. I am not a fan of counterspells which give my opponent another card, personally, and I like my counterspells to be pretty cheap, though I make the occasional exception for ones that offer a lot of versatility, such as Cryptic Command, or offer some other notable benefit, such as Plasm Capture. I prefer ones that exile the card, so I rate Dissipate and Faerie Trickery (as examples) ahead of a few of the cheaper ones, but I usually run Negate because only having to keep up one U to stop a lot of dangerous stuff is pretty good. I am also a huge fan of the more limited, yet very cheap Swan Song.
Angelic Renewal is one of my all time favorites since it protects from sacrifice, -X/-X, and "cannot be regenerated" effects. It really shines in Voltron builds and with a Sun Titan on the board. Double fun when using boardwipes yourself.
Vanishing protects your creatures or makes your opponents' creatures disappear at inopportune times.
Stony silence.... its an unbelievably powerful card in commander and I don't think its power is hidden it just comes at a cost most people don't want to pay, namely not playing artifact ramp yourself.
Pithing Needle, I made my group stop using commanders with activated abilities with this card but its just alround useful, sure they can destroy it to unlock their things but typically that costs more mana then you spent on it... and if I can recur it.
Precursor Golem Why yes I'll take 9 power for 5 mana thanks. Interacts favorably with sac outlets and craterhoof. Plus that ability has some fun uses.
Debt of Loyalty – For metas where games play out along traditional lines (build up, wipe, repeat), this card is a blowout in response to a wipe. Its conditions are usually much easier to satisfy than Second Sunrise and Faith’s Reward also, because you don’t need your own board. It’s also friendly with Sunforger on the timing aspect, while other similar options are not.
Mudslide – This tends to be a slightly slower but broader Propaganda effect, since it doesn’t care who is attacked and also affects creatures with tap abilities.
Energy Flux – This is a really solid card for land-ramping UGx decks to pick on other color combinations that need artifacts to ramp, or for just bringing the player on a Sol Ring/Mana Crypt draw back down to earth. Also goes a long way in equipment-saturated metas.
I'm going to have to strongly agree with GloriousGoose over DirkGently here. Saying Spell Swindle is better than Countersquall is similar to saying Slice in Twain is better than Nature's Claim (it's not). Mystic Confluence is a very good counterspell, but again, it costs 5 mana.
I think value wise Countersquall is fantastic, and I believe two mana counterspells are usually much better than three mana ones. Forbid is a better spell when abused in the right deck, but for the vast majority of spells that can run both spells, Countersquall would be better. Force of Will isn't nearly as good in Commander than it is in Legacy. Force of Will is especially unreliable in 3+ color decks. Delay is underrated, probably a hidden gem, but it's not a hard counter like Countersquall is. As a counter, Muddle the Mixture isn't better than Countersquall, as a tutor, it's pretty good though. Dream Fracture is not better than Countersquall. Negate counters way more things than Trickbind does.
Circling back to my hidden gem commander criteria, Countersquall meets the criteria and I still stand by saying it is a criminally underplayed card considering it's power level in relation to its converted mana cost.
I would recommend not getting caught up in semantics of whether people think posts are "hidden gems" or not. The idea is just to post cards which people might not have thought about before. I've already taken away Teferi's Veil as a card I didn't even know existed, and its got me puzzling on how to use/abuse it.
I run it in Edric, Spymaster of Trest. The whole deck revolves around vomiting out 1/1 unblockable/evasive creatures to draw tons of cards. The main drawback is that I walk a fine line between overcommitting to the board and being bale to bounce back from a wipe. Teferi's Veil and Aluren do wonders for me, allowing me to play around sorcery speed removal.
I'm going to have to strongly agree with GloriousGoose over DirkGently here. Saying Spell Swindle is better than Countersquall is similar to saying Slice in Twain is better than Nature's Claim (it's not). Mystic Confluence is a very good counterspell, but again, it costs 5 mana.
I think value wise Countersquall is fantastic, and I believe two mana counterspells are usually much better than three mana ones. Forbid is a better spell when abused in the right deck, but for the vast majority of spells that can run both spells, Countersquall would be better. Force of Will isn't nearly as good in Commander than it is in Legacy. Force of Will is especially unreliable in 3+ color decks. Delay is underrated, probably a hidden gem, but it's not a hard counter like Countersquall is. As a counter, Muddle the Mixture isn't better than Countersquall, as a tutor, it's pretty good though. Dream Fracture is not better than Countersquall. Negate counters way more things than Trickbind does.
Circling back to my hidden gem commander criteria, Countersquall meets the criteria and I still stand by saying it is a criminally underplayed card considering it's power level in relation to its converted mana cost.
You do realize the goose also said countersquall was significantly worse than negate and he would only play it in a deck with 15+ counters....? Also you've already made your position clear, you don't have to re-agree with your position. That's just tacky.
I think it's super weird that you think FoW AND dream fracture are somehow BOTH worse than negate.
FoW costs 2 less mana (in the default mode) but puts you -1 card relative to negate, with added flexibility. So I guess you think saving 2 mana isn't worth losing a card, fine.
dream fracture costs 1 more mana but puts you +1 card relative to negate (well, I guess more like +2/3 of a card technically), with added flexibility. So I guess you think saving a card isn't worth spending an extra mana.
Wait, what?
I can understand having one of those positions, depending if you value tempo or value more, but not both. Pick a side.
(and all of that is ignoring the minor bonus of being able to counter the most common spell type in the game, and FoWs little-known ability to be cast for mana if you're flooded).
You'll also note that I didn't bring up spell swindle as one of the unimpeachably better counterspells. Personally I think it's better but it's more complex to argue. Trickbind simply counters different things, but there are many scenarios in which it's far superior. I listed it as arguable anyway. Of course you've still totally ignored counters like arcane denial that are objectively better than negate, let alone countersquall.
Although it's not really important, 2k is far from hidden imo. FFS Kess is only in 1300 decks, does anyone think Kess is "hidden"?
Storm Cauldron can be played in a landfall deck for obvious reasons, or it can be played in a Stax deck to punish players for heavy use of mana.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Depending on the power level and meta you're going for, Laccolith Rig can do a lot of work. It lets you turn any large creature into repeatable political removal and the turn you play it to kill something, it only costs you 1 mana. You can also plop it on an opponent's large creature which is pseudo removal as long as anyone can block the large creature since you still control the enchantment.
Again, depending on the deck, meta, and power level, Krosan Restorer is a pretty nice mana rock that bumps up when you get a karoo and then bumps up a lot later in the game. It can also be a political tool by untapping someone else's mana.
I'm going to have to strongly agree with GloriousGoose over DirkGently here. Saying Spell Swindle is better than Countersquall is similar to saying Slice in Twain is better than Nature's Claim (it's not). Mystic Confluence is a very good counterspell, but again, it costs 5 mana.
I think value wise Countersquall is fantastic, and I believe two mana counterspells are usually much better than three mana ones. Forbid is a better spell when abused in the right deck, but for the vast majority of spells that can run both spells, Countersquall would be better. Force of Will isn't nearly as good in Commander than it is in Legacy. Force of Will is especially unreliable in 3+ color decks. Delay is underrated, probably a hidden gem, but it's not a hard counter like Countersquall is. As a counter, Muddle the Mixture isn't better than Countersquall, as a tutor, it's pretty good though. Dream Fracture is not better than Countersquall. Negate counters way more things than Trickbind does.
Circling back to my hidden gem commander criteria, Countersquall meets the criteria and I still stand by saying it is a criminally underplayed card considering it's power level in relation to its converted mana cost.
You do realize the goose also said countersquall was significantly worse than negate and he would only play it in a deck with 15+ counters....? Also you've already made your position clear, you don't have to re-agree with your position. That's just tacky.
I think it's super weird that you think FoW AND dream fracture are somehow BOTH worse than negate.
FoW costs 2 less mana (in the default mode) but puts you -1 card relative to negate, with added flexibility. So I guess you think saving 2 mana isn't worth losing a card, fine.
dream fracture costs 1 more mana but puts you +1 card relative to negate (well, I guess more like +2/3 of a card technically), with added flexibility. So I guess you think saving a card isn't worth spending an extra mana.
Wait, what?
I can understand having one of those positions, depending if you value tempo or value more, but not both. Pick a side.
(and all of that is ignoring the minor bonus of being able to counter the most common spell type in the game, and FoWs little-known ability to be cast for mana if you're flooded).
You'll also note that I didn't bring up spell swindle as one of the unimpeachably better counterspells. Personally I think it's better but it's more complex to argue. Trickbind simply counters different things, but there are many scenarios in which it's far superior. I listed it as arguable anyway. Of course you've still totally ignored counters like arcane denial that are objectively better than negate, let alone countersquall.
Although it's not really important, 2k is far from hidden imo. FFS Kess is only in 1300 decks, does anyone think Kess is "hidden"?
I don't think I'm totally sure of what your primary point is. Are you arguing that Countersquall isn't a particularly good spell or that Countersquall isn't a hidden gem?
Negate is played 9 times more frequently than Countersquall even though the cards do the same thing for the same converted mana cost. I understand that Countersquall requires an additional color, but given that Negate is a very frequently played card even in decks with both blue and black, while the same can't be said about Countersquall indicates to me that is underplayed considering its power level.
I did gloss over GloriousGoose's point that s/he believes casting Countersquall is much more difficult than casting Negate. Maybe for a 4 or 5 color deck this could be the case, but if a two or three color deck can cast Counterspell, Disallow, Cryptic Command, or Supreme Verdict, it should have no issues casting Countersquall. This is similar to how a Golgari or Abzan deck shouldn't have issues casting Abrupt Decay. If I was playing a draw go control deck with Wydwen, the Biting Gale as the commander, Countersquall would be an obvious inclusion and personally I think it would be odd to omit it.
What PhroX said earlier about Negate and Countersquall surmises my perspective well. PhroX's point as I understood it is that Negate should be played over virtually all 3 mana counterspells which overall puts it high on the counter spell tier list. Countersquall isn't as good as Negate because it has a less restrictive cost, but I can't think of a good reason a blue black deck that is running Negate shouldn't be running Countersquall.
I believe Dream Fracture is worse than Countersquall because it's easier to keep up two mana than three mana and it's very nice to be able to counter a spell on turn 2 which Dream Fracture can't do. I don't think replacing itself is worth costing more mana. Similarly, I don't think Slice in Twain is better than Krosan Grip/Naturalize or how Smash isn't worth playing over Smelt/Shatter.
Force of Will is a great card, but it's much better in Legacy than it is in Commander. In a 3 color deck, it can often be difficult to pitch a blue card to Force of Will. In a mono blue deck, or even just a two color deck, Force of Will is an excellent counterspell but there are certainly instances in the early game where you end up having to pitch a spell to counter something even though you would have had enough mana open if you would have had Negate/Countersquall in your hand.
Arcane Denial isn't strictly better than Negate. Sometimes giving an opponent two cards is a bad thing, even if you get one. That being said, Arcane Denial is a very strong counterspell. Two mana hard counters are very strong. Negate and Countersquall can counter all spells except for creatures which are often less of a problem for a control deck (especially one that has access to black mana)
Kess, Dissident Mage is a multicolored legendary creature that is not even a year old. Countersquall is a counter spell is a card that has been in the format since practically its inception. In less than 1 year, Kess, Dissident Mage has seen nearly as much play as Countersquall has in its lifetime in the format. Dream Fracture is a card that isn't even played very often, it certainly isn't a blue staple, and it sees play in nearly twice as many decks as Countersquall. Trickbind is a niche counterspell that by no means is a staple and it still sees more play than Countersquall.
Lastly, the condescending tone isn't really necessary. I re-read my post where I quoted you and I don't recall being negative or critical, but if I was, I am sorry for that. We can disagree without being snarky.
Jesus effing Christ, can you stop arguing about Counterspells?
It's more or less irrelevant, if it's the 3rd best or 713th best Counterspell variant ever.
What's relevant is, if it is a hidden gem.
Is it hidden? Sitting at close to 2k it isn't hidden extremely well, yet not necessarily a format staple - may it be for its strength or because of players not knowing it exists. Is it a gem? Arguably. Yet, not arguably enough to spam this thread.
Adding another card to the pool, Aftershock could be less mana intense, but outside of W i really like the versatility.
Depending on the power level and meta you're going for, Laccolith Rig can do a lot of work. It lets you turn any large creature into repeatable political removal and the turn you play it to kill something, it only costs you 1 mana. You can also plop it on an opponent's large creature which is pseudo removal as long as anyone can block the large creature since you still control the enchantment.
+1 Along those lines also, I have seen Farrel's Mantle do work in Bruna, Uril, so on.
I don't think I'm totally sure of what your primary point is. Are you arguing that Countersquall isn't a particularly good spell or that Countersquall isn't a hidden gem?
Negate is played 9 times more frequently than Countersquall even though the cards do the same thing for the same converted mana cost. I understand that Countersquall requires an additional color, but given that Negate is a very frequently played card even in decks with both blue and black, while the same can't be said about Countersquall indicates to me that is underplayed considering its power level.
I did gloss over GloriousGoose's point that s/he believes casting Countersquall is much more difficult than casting Negate. Maybe for a 4 or 5 color deck this could be the case, but if a two or three color deck can cast Counterspell, Disallow, Cryptic Command, or Supreme Verdict, it should have no issues casting Countersquall. This is similar to how a Golgari or Abzan deck shouldn't have issues casting Abrupt Decay. If I was playing a draw go control deck with Wydwen, the Biting Gale as the commander, Countersquall would be an obvious inclusion and personally I think it would be odd to omit it.
What PhroX said earlier about Negate and Countersquall surmises my perspective well. PhroX's point as I understood it is that Negate should be played over virtually all 3 mana counterspells which overall puts it high on the counter spell tier list. Countersquall isn't as good as Negate because it has a less restrictive cost, but I can't think of a good reason a blue black deck that is running Negate shouldn't be running Countersquall.
I believe Dream Fracture is worse than Countersquall because it's easier to keep up two mana than three mana and it's very nice to be able to counter a spell on turn 2 which Dream Fracture can't do. I don't think replacing itself is worth costing more mana. Similarly, I don't think Slice in Twain is better than Krosan Grip/Naturalize or how Smash isn't worth playing over Smelt/Shatter.
Force of Will is a great card, but it's much better in Legacy than it is in Commander. In a 3 color deck, it can often be difficult to pitch a blue card to Force of Will. In a mono blue deck, or even just a two color deck, Force of Will is an excellent counterspell but there are certainly instances in the early game where you end up having to pitch a spell to counter something even though you would have had enough mana open if you would have had Negate/Countersquall in your hand.
Arcane Denial isn't strictly better than Negate. Sometimes giving an opponent two cards is a bad thing, even if you get one. That being said, Arcane Denial is a very strong counterspell. Two mana hard counters are very strong. Negate and Countersquall can counter all spells except for creatures which are often less of a problem for a control deck (especially one that has access to black mana)
Kess, Dissident Mage is a multicolored legendary creature that is not even a year old. Countersquall is a counter spell is a card that has been in the format since practically its inception. In less than 1 year, Kess, Dissident Mage has seen nearly as much play as Countersquall has in its lifetime in the format. Dream Fracture is a card that isn't even played very often, it certainly isn't a blue staple, and it sees play in nearly twice as many decks as Countersquall. Trickbind is a niche counterspell that by no means is a staple and it still sees more play than Countersquall.
Lastly, the condescending tone isn't really necessary. I re-read my post where I quoted you and I don't recall being negative or critical, but if I was, I am sorry for that. We can disagree without being snarky.
ok fair enough, if you want some older cards, knight of the reliquary, kolaghan's command, jokulhaups and gaddock teeg have a little over 2K hits, and they're all on the top 50 list, and they've all been around for a good long while. A few more hits than countersquall, but they're also all relatively unique effects that are very well known. Haups is even mono-colored.
I would argue it's not hidden, it's not a gem, and it's not that great. It's a third-string counterspell with a color restriction and virtually no upside. If anything it sees too much play. Outside of really heavy UB counter decks I don't see much place for it.
What scenario do you really want to throw out a counterspell on T2 in multiplayer? Best I can think of is sol ring into aetherflux reservoir, and even then, in a format where ramping is so common on T2 I'd think you'd want to spend that turn ramping rather than holding up a counter? (Also I'd much rather have a trickbind in that scenario but that's neither here nor there) Maybe there are certain very combo-oriented metas where that's necessary but that's a pretty uncommon situation imo.
countersquall costs a surprising amount of money for a mediocre card (well, a couple of bucks is more than I would have expected). Negate has been printed in multiple recent sets and people can pick it up for free after a draft easily, plus the mono-color business. It's not hard to see why it's so much more commonly played.
Phrox still puts negate outside of the top 5 and countersquall somewhere lower, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't really matter what someone says if it doesn't have reasoning behind it. But I can at least understand Phrox as someone who's more concerned with tempo than value, because he rates FoW above negate, which makes total sense. The preference of counterspells is going to depend heavily on the meta - people in fast, competitive, combo-y metas are going to prefer cheap universal counters like FoW, where people in slower metas are going to prefer high-value counters like confluence. Everyone else seems to fall somewhere on that spectrum and makes sense to me.
I didn't say arcane denial was strictly better, I said it was objectively better. The only situation one could reasonably say negate is better is when the game is down to 1v1 (or nearly so) AND you aren't concerned about creatures, which isn't irrelevant but it's a pretty niche case compared to the benefit of replacing itself AND ability to counter creatures (a feature that I'm kind of baffled you don't rate higher in the format of DEN, palinchron, craterhoof, and teferi, to name a few).
I'd also argue that, if you're playing draw-go, that's when you LEAST one something like countersquall (or negate). If you're never tapping anything on your turn, why limit yourself to 2-mana counters when you could play something like cryptic, confluence, or swindle and get some value out of it? Negate is the sort of counter I want in something like talrand, where I want to be able to cast draw spells during my own turn and still keep up multiple counters later to protect my board.
Again, there may be fast combo oriented metas where that's not an option, and I can understand that, but then there's absolutely zero reason to argue that FoW is worse. I can basically understand everything you're saying as making sense in that universe, except that then FoW is absolutely among the best possible counterspells available and I can't wrap my head around why you'd argue it's "better in legacy" as though that's an actual argument. What makes it better in legacy? If anything I'd say having a painful-to-cast silver-bullet counterspell is better in commander than in legacy, because in legacy you have to answer every threat your opponent presents, so 2-for-1ing yourself is pretty brutal. Whereas in commander you only need to answer the game-winning threats that aren't cleaned up by someone else, or a board wipe, or whatever, so a single counter can go a pretty long way in terms of keeping you alive. Also it's even more important in multiplayer to not fall behind in terms of development (arguably) so you really don't want to be missing ramp or draw on your turn in order to keep up counterspells. FoW lets you play your hand while requiring no mana be kept open.
Do or Die is another nice removal spell that I don't see in lists too often. Not quite a boardwipe, not spot removal either, so I can see why people choose to not run it. Nonetheless, it is a very mana efficient way to get rid of a potentially huge number of creatures, and can be turned into spot removal if you make the opponent choose between his most important creature and the rest of his board.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
So, my contribution to this thread is Insight. While most players tend to avoid these cards like the plague, I flock to them in earnest. What I like most about Insight though is that it doesn't require you to lift a finger once it's made its way onto the table; it triggers solely off of opponents doing things they would naturally be doing anyways. Will it sometimes be a dead card? Sure, on occasion. Do you know how likely it is that all least one opponent is playing green at the table though? Likely. And what's a green mage to do once it resolves? Not cast green spells? Good luck with that. Just feed me some cards, bro.
Insight and it's green counterpart Compost are decent cards. Don't rate them as highly as Carpet of Flowers (if people still don't play that despite it being one of the best ramp spells in the format, there's little hope...) as even when there's not much blue around you still usually get at least 1 non-basic island from a multicoloured deck to feed off of, whereas those two spells need your opponents to be actively doing stuff involving the colours to really profit, but they're certainly worth considering. And of course, when they're good, they're incredible.
On the topic of actual hidden gems, mischievous quanar gets a vote from me. Repeatable copying is super legit, and morphs are tons of fun. It's probably weaker than than reiterate, but it has some advantages as well (harder to counter, less mana needs to be kept up, etc) plus morphs are super fun.
Among the lines of color responsive cards i really wanna give Lifeforce a spin in my Ezuri, Renegade Leader deck. Mana isn't really a problem and opponents could at least shy away from black wipes, that make up for half of my decks' kryponite.
Its counterpart Deathgrip isn't too shabby either, but i fear the most legit targets for it would "only" be ramp spells and half of the removals that could target it.
Third one in line is Douse which can target the least played color of them, requires the most mana on its initial cast and is in U, so unfortunately it looks fun, but is unnecessary.
Maybe it's just me but I would shy away pretty hard from color hosers. They're sometimes completely dead, and when they're not they usually create a miserable play experience. There's a reason WotC has stopped printing them.
Compost, insight, and carpet are more ok since they don't hinder the other player, but it still feels lame to get a massive benefit (or not) just because someone is playing a certain color. They're just badly designed cards imo.
To weigh in; Negate is underrated for sure even with 16,000 hits. It took me a long time to warm up to it, but it's great in control (there's a lot of scary non-creatures) and EXTREMELY great in aggressive or midrange lists (which need to develop the board and also want to prevent a *** blowout). I wouldn't run it over FoW, Counterspell, Arcane Denial, or Mana Drain (although on my budget only two of those cards are feasible) but I'd consider it superior to all other counterspells in creature-centric blue decks just because holding up 2 mana is significantly easier than holding up 3 or 4, even if Dream Fracture and Disallow are more powerful.
Countersquall is mediocre but playable because the mana cost is harsh and most controlling decks would prefer to pay more for more power. 2 life is almost never relevant even for creature decks. It is underplayed in Sygg, River Cutthroat were it IS almost strictly better than Negate due to commander synergy and the need to protect yourself from boardwipes and removal, but now we're in "good for one specific commander" territory - I don't think I'd run it in Oona, Grimgrin, Scarab God, Bolas, Kess, Inalla, or even Marchesa or Admiral Brass unless I was going super deep on counters. Oloro, Ageless Ascetic is the one other place it makes sense since it sorta comboes with Exquisite Blood?
A lot of text has been spent on Negate vs Countersquall vs every other counterspell in the format so for an actual hidden gem - Scryb Ranger. I tried it in my Derevi "aggressive landfall and tap abilities deck", and quickly fell in love for most green decks. It helps trigger landfall reliably, helps get extra utility out of tap creatures, and wears equipment like a boss.
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Anyway it's not an uninteresting discussion, but I think my broader point is basically proven. Getting agreement over what is and isn't a hidden gem is difficult to say the least.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
While it looks like a strictly better Negate on the surface, Countersquall is so much worse in practice. The life loss rider is just so irrelevant in multiplayer games with 40 point life totals, not to mention the sorts of decks that do play countermagic won't even always care about the life loss. Holding open UB is just so much more demanding than 1U. It can really make the difference between playing some other color intensive spell and holding open countermagic. Those sorts of circumstances aren't worth the paltry amount of life Countersquall causes opponents to lose. Negate is the superior spell.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Vanishing protects your creatures or makes your opponents' creatures disappear at inopportune times.
Stratus Dancer, Zoetic Cavern, and Vesuvan Shapeshifter are all useful friends for Willbender to keep your opponents guessing what your Morph critter actually is.
Thassa &
Shu Yun &
Jarad &
Animar
Pithing Needle, I made my group stop using commanders with activated abilities with this card but its just alround useful, sure they can destroy it to unlock their things but typically that costs more mana then you spent on it... and if I can recur it.
Precursor Golem Why yes I'll take 9 power for 5 mana thanks. Interacts favorably with sac outlets and craterhoof. Plus that ability has some fun uses.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Slaughter – I don’t know how many Black decks there are that can gain tons of life, but they should all be playing this card. I rarely see it, though.
Tilling Treefolk – It should be a solid inclusion behind Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam and Ramunap Excavator.
Debt of Loyalty – For metas where games play out along traditional lines (build up, wipe, repeat), this card is a blowout in response to a wipe. Its conditions are usually much easier to satisfy than Second Sunrise and Faith’s Reward also, because you don’t need your own board. It’s also friendly with Sunforger on the timing aspect, while other similar options are not.
Mudslide – This tends to be a slightly slower but broader Propaganda effect, since it doesn’t care who is attacked and also affects creatures with tap abilities.
Energy Flux – This is a really solid card for land-ramping UGx decks to pick on other color combinations that need artifacts to ramp, or for just bringing the player on a Sol Ring/Mana Crypt draw back down to earth. Also goes a long way in equipment-saturated metas.
I think value wise Countersquall is fantastic, and I believe two mana counterspells are usually much better than three mana ones. Forbid is a better spell when abused in the right deck, but for the vast majority of spells that can run both spells, Countersquall would be better. Force of Will isn't nearly as good in Commander than it is in Legacy. Force of Will is especially unreliable in 3+ color decks. Delay is underrated, probably a hidden gem, but it's not a hard counter like Countersquall is. As a counter, Muddle the Mixture isn't better than Countersquall, as a tutor, it's pretty good though. Dream Fracture is not better than Countersquall. Negate counters way more things than Trickbind does.
Circling back to my hidden gem commander criteria, Countersquall meets the criteria and I still stand by saying it is a criminally underplayed card considering it's power level in relation to its converted mana cost.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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ManabaseCrafter
I think it's super weird that you think FoW AND dream fracture are somehow BOTH worse than negate.
FoW costs 2 less mana (in the default mode) but puts you -1 card relative to negate, with added flexibility. So I guess you think saving 2 mana isn't worth losing a card, fine.
dream fracture costs 1 more mana but puts you +1 card relative to negate (well, I guess more like +2/3 of a card technically), with added flexibility. So I guess you think saving a card isn't worth spending an extra mana.
Wait, what?
I can understand having one of those positions, depending if you value tempo or value more, but not both. Pick a side.
(and all of that is ignoring the minor bonus of being able to counter the most common spell type in the game, and FoWs little-known ability to be cast for mana if you're flooded).
You'll also note that I didn't bring up spell swindle as one of the unimpeachably better counterspells. Personally I think it's better but it's more complex to argue. Trickbind simply counters different things, but there are many scenarios in which it's far superior. I listed it as arguable anyway. Of course you've still totally ignored counters like arcane denial that are objectively better than negate, let alone countersquall.
Although it's not really important, 2k is far from hidden imo. FFS Kess is only in 1300 decks, does anyone think Kess is "hidden"?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
On phasing:
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
Again, depending on the deck, meta, and power level, Krosan Restorer is a pretty nice mana rock that bumps up when you get a karoo and then bumps up a lot later in the game. It can also be a political tool by untapping someone else's mana.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
I don't think I'm totally sure of what your primary point is. Are you arguing that Countersquall isn't a particularly good spell or that Countersquall isn't a hidden gem?
Negate is played 9 times more frequently than Countersquall even though the cards do the same thing for the same converted mana cost. I understand that Countersquall requires an additional color, but given that Negate is a very frequently played card even in decks with both blue and black, while the same can't be said about Countersquall indicates to me that is underplayed considering its power level.
I did gloss over GloriousGoose's point that s/he believes casting Countersquall is much more difficult than casting Negate. Maybe for a 4 or 5 color deck this could be the case, but if a two or three color deck can cast Counterspell, Disallow, Cryptic Command, or Supreme Verdict, it should have no issues casting Countersquall. This is similar to how a Golgari or Abzan deck shouldn't have issues casting Abrupt Decay. If I was playing a draw go control deck with Wydwen, the Biting Gale as the commander, Countersquall would be an obvious inclusion and personally I think it would be odd to omit it.
What PhroX said earlier about Negate and Countersquall surmises my perspective well. PhroX's point as I understood it is that Negate should be played over virtually all 3 mana counterspells which overall puts it high on the counter spell tier list. Countersquall isn't as good as Negate because it has a less restrictive cost, but I can't think of a good reason a blue black deck that is running Negate shouldn't be running Countersquall.
I believe Dream Fracture is worse than Countersquall because it's easier to keep up two mana than three mana and it's very nice to be able to counter a spell on turn 2 which Dream Fracture can't do. I don't think replacing itself is worth costing more mana. Similarly, I don't think Slice in Twain is better than Krosan Grip/Naturalize or how Smash isn't worth playing over Smelt/Shatter.
Force of Will is a great card, but it's much better in Legacy than it is in Commander. In a 3 color deck, it can often be difficult to pitch a blue card to Force of Will. In a mono blue deck, or even just a two color deck, Force of Will is an excellent counterspell but there are certainly instances in the early game where you end up having to pitch a spell to counter something even though you would have had enough mana open if you would have had Negate/Countersquall in your hand.
Arcane Denial isn't strictly better than Negate. Sometimes giving an opponent two cards is a bad thing, even if you get one. That being said, Arcane Denial is a very strong counterspell. Two mana hard counters are very strong. Negate and Countersquall can counter all spells except for creatures which are often less of a problem for a control deck (especially one that has access to black mana)
Kess, Dissident Mage is a multicolored legendary creature that is not even a year old. Countersquall is a counter spell is a card that has been in the format since practically its inception. In less than 1 year, Kess, Dissident Mage has seen nearly as much play as Countersquall has in its lifetime in the format. Dream Fracture is a card that isn't even played very often, it certainly isn't a blue staple, and it sees play in nearly twice as many decks as Countersquall. Trickbind is a niche counterspell that by no means is a staple and it still sees more play than Countersquall.
Lastly, the condescending tone isn't really necessary. I re-read my post where I quoted you and I don't recall being negative or critical, but if I was, I am sorry for that. We can disagree without being snarky.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
It's more or less irrelevant, if it's the 3rd best or 713th best Counterspell variant ever.
What's relevant is, if it is a hidden gem.
Is it hidden? Sitting at close to 2k it isn't hidden extremely well, yet not necessarily a format staple - may it be for its strength or because of players not knowing it exists.
Is it a gem? Arguably. Yet, not arguably enough to spam this thread.
Adding another card to the pool, Aftershock could be less mana intense, but outside of W i really like the versatility.
+1 Along those lines also, I have seen Farrel's Mantle do work in Bruna, Uril, so on.
I would argue it's not hidden, it's not a gem, and it's not that great. It's a third-string counterspell with a color restriction and virtually no upside. If anything it sees too much play. Outside of really heavy UB counter decks I don't see much place for it.
What scenario do you really want to throw out a counterspell on T2 in multiplayer? Best I can think of is sol ring into aetherflux reservoir, and even then, in a format where ramping is so common on T2 I'd think you'd want to spend that turn ramping rather than holding up a counter? (Also I'd much rather have a trickbind in that scenario but that's neither here nor there) Maybe there are certain very combo-oriented metas where that's necessary but that's a pretty uncommon situation imo.
countersquall costs a surprising amount of money for a mediocre card (well, a couple of bucks is more than I would have expected). Negate has been printed in multiple recent sets and people can pick it up for free after a draft easily, plus the mono-color business. It's not hard to see why it's so much more commonly played.
Phrox still puts negate outside of the top 5 and countersquall somewhere lower, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't really matter what someone says if it doesn't have reasoning behind it. But I can at least understand Phrox as someone who's more concerned with tempo than value, because he rates FoW above negate, which makes total sense. The preference of counterspells is going to depend heavily on the meta - people in fast, competitive, combo-y metas are going to prefer cheap universal counters like FoW, where people in slower metas are going to prefer high-value counters like confluence. Everyone else seems to fall somewhere on that spectrum and makes sense to me.
I didn't say arcane denial was strictly better, I said it was objectively better. The only situation one could reasonably say negate is better is when the game is down to 1v1 (or nearly so) AND you aren't concerned about creatures, which isn't irrelevant but it's a pretty niche case compared to the benefit of replacing itself AND ability to counter creatures (a feature that I'm kind of baffled you don't rate higher in the format of DEN, palinchron, craterhoof, and teferi, to name a few).
I'd also argue that, if you're playing draw-go, that's when you LEAST one something like countersquall (or negate). If you're never tapping anything on your turn, why limit yourself to 2-mana counters when you could play something like cryptic, confluence, or swindle and get some value out of it? Negate is the sort of counter I want in something like talrand, where I want to be able to cast draw spells during my own turn and still keep up multiple counters later to protect my board.
Again, there may be fast combo oriented metas where that's not an option, and I can understand that, but then there's absolutely zero reason to argue that FoW is worse. I can basically understand everything you're saying as making sense in that universe, except that then FoW is absolutely among the best possible counterspells available and I can't wrap my head around why you'd argue it's "better in legacy" as though that's an actual argument. What makes it better in legacy? If anything I'd say having a painful-to-cast silver-bullet counterspell is better in commander than in legacy, because in legacy you have to answer every threat your opponent presents, so 2-for-1ing yourself is pretty brutal. Whereas in commander you only need to answer the game-winning threats that aren't cleaned up by someone else, or a board wipe, or whatever, so a single counter can go a pretty long way in terms of keeping you alive. Also it's even more important in multiplayer to not fall behind in terms of development (arguably) so you really don't want to be missing ramp or draw on your turn in order to keep up counterspells. FoW lets you play your hand while requiring no mana be kept open.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
Other underrated but more well known cards of this category include Carpet of Flowers and Exotic Orchard.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Its counterpart Deathgrip isn't too shabby either, but i fear the most legit targets for it would "only" be ramp spells and half of the removals that could target it.
Third one in line is Douse which can target the least played color of them, requires the most mana on its initial cast and is in U, so unfortunately it looks fun, but is unnecessary.
Compost, insight, and carpet are more ok since they don't hinder the other player, but it still feels lame to get a massive benefit (or not) just because someone is playing a certain color. They're just badly designed cards imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Countersquall is mediocre but playable because the mana cost is harsh and most controlling decks would prefer to pay more for more power. 2 life is almost never relevant even for creature decks. It is underplayed in Sygg, River Cutthroat were it IS almost strictly better than Negate due to commander synergy and the need to protect yourself from boardwipes and removal, but now we're in "good for one specific commander" territory - I don't think I'd run it in Oona, Grimgrin, Scarab God, Bolas, Kess, Inalla, or even Marchesa or Admiral Brass unless I was going super deep on counters. Oloro, Ageless Ascetic is the one other place it makes sense since it sorta comboes with Exquisite Blood?
A lot of text has been spent on Negate vs Countersquall vs every other counterspell in the format so for an actual hidden gem - Scryb Ranger. I tried it in my Derevi "aggressive landfall and tap abilities deck", and quickly fell in love for most green decks. It helps trigger landfall reliably, helps get extra utility out of tap creatures, and wears equipment like a boss.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG