It just requires so much work for a payoff that, once you get there, feels very much like a win-more situation. Plus, you need to keep your life total up as well. When people see what you're up to, you will be gunned for...it might just be too much work.
Yeah I'm a bit pessimistic about this one.
Totally agree. No reasonable playgroup with the most basic amounts of removal is going to allow you to flip this fairly. If you are trying to pull some shenanigans to flip it "unfairly", there are just easier ways to make infinite mana. It just seems like a bad way to loot to me.
It's not infinite, and it's reusable. And yes, every card in the game can be removed. I prefer to think of what cards can do when they aren't. A deck with 40 threats and 20 lands will always beat a deck of 40 answers and 20 lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
I wasn't denying that. However, most of that card draw costs more than 2 to cast. I also like looting because it lets you run more specific cards. Are you more worried about spells/burn than creatures? Pitch that Awe Strike.
This argument strikes me as flawed. Sure, every card serves some function, but presumably most of them are redundant effects - exiling one removal spell doesn't mean you can't draw into other removal, removing a draw spell doesn't mean you can't get more draw, etc. In fact the fact that effects are often redundant is a big advantage - if you already have oracle of mul daya you probably don't need courser of kruphix for example. To say nothing of the fact that you can happily pitch lands ad infinitum in the late game or if you're choked with them.
The idea that you'd lose some crucial card seems patently ridiculous. No one is going to force you to exile some critical synergy piece or whatever. The card quality of your hand can only improve if you loot, barring some absurd situation where literally every card in your hand and the card you draw are ALL critical pieces that you would have tutored or drawn through your entire deck for. Otherwise, being in exile is functionally no different from them being on the bottom of your library.
The "dies to removal" argument is also pretty silly. It's a 2 mana artifact - this isn't the feel-bads of losing something you invested considerable resources into, like an it that betrays or hecatomb or whatever. If you got 4+ loots off it before it was destroyed, then I'd say you came out solidly ahead in most circumstances. I don't know that it's worth screwing up your curve or exiling cards you'd rather keep to try to flip it ASAP - I suspect it's not, otherwise you might actually have regrets. But if you just activate it when you want the loot or when you have extra mana, and you just exile the worst card in your hand (at least up until the last 1-2 activations), I don't see why you'd have any serious disappointment if it died prematurely. Well, maybe you'll be disappointed, but you won't have actually been seriously hurt, any moreso than if any other cheap thing you played got killed after getting modest value.
I have no idea why you'd call it a "win more" card. It doesn't demand that you're winning to work at all. And the risks are pretty much zero as it's a totally functional, if unexciting, card even without the flip.
I think it's worth looking at the possibility of going for a fast flip via synergistic cards like MoM, simply because the flip side is so insane, but that doesn't mean those cards are necessary for making the card good. Don't mistake potential usage options with mandatory requirements.
I think there are two more points worth hitting on but I agree with your logic.
You generally do not see your entire deck in a game of commander. The concept of "wasting" cards implies that you need every card or might regret no longer having a card if it is thrown away.
Given how many different ways there are to play commander answers are often situational. It might happen that you run Swords to Plowshares but when you draw it you are facing down 20+ tokens you might instead wish you had a Wrath of God effect. If you had a card like Azor's Gateway you could attempt to take that card and turn it into a more relevant card for the current situation.
The concept that every card is needed for commander is a little flawed because in any situation a card might be wrong. Lets say you run Coat of Arms but lets say you don't currently have any creatures in play or you are playing against an explosive token deck. In that case that card might be less relevant and you may want to not cast it. While there are a lot of cards with good function and reasons to be run, I can probably give a counter point to playing almost any card at some time or another and filter like Azor's Gateway allows you to improve the quality of your hand by removing your weakest card in every situation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I wasn't denying that. However, most of that card draw costs more than 2 to cast. I also like looting because it lets you run more specific cards. Are you more worried about spells/burn than creatures? Pitch that Awe Strike.
Fair enough. I guess it does have that.
More than anything, I get tired of the hype. It's a Channel land, but only if opponents let it become one. (As with all DFCs, flip cards, level up cards, and things like Figure of Destiny.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It just requires so much work for a payoff that, once you get there, feels very much like a win-more situation. Plus, you need to keep your life total up as well. When people see what you're up to, you will be gunned for...it might just be too much work.
Yeah I'm a bit pessimistic about this one.
Totally agree. No reasonable playgroup with the most basic amounts of removal is going to allow you to flip this fairly. If you are trying to pull some shenanigans to flip it "unfairly", there are just easier ways to make infinite mana. It just seems like a bad way to loot to me.
It's not infinite, and it's reusable. And yes, every card in the game can be removed. I prefer to think of what cards can do when they aren't. A deck with 40 threats and 20 lands will always beat a deck of 40 answers and 20 lands.
Clearly it's not infinite. My point was that you can make infinite mana easier than trying to use shenanigans to flip this card. Yes, every card can obviously be removed. Most just don't give your opponents 5 plus turns to get rid of them before they come online. I'm not trying to say this is a terrible card, just that if you are playing it you're going to be doing so for the scry like ability that isn't as good as other scry options.
A lot of the sentiments brought up in the thread seem accurate. The cheap exile-loot rock is good quality of life at any stage of the game, so assuming the deck can routinely make use of the flip land it makes sense to give it a shot. It's been playing pretty well in my Daxos the Returned list - a slow build that doesn't mind 5+ turns of hand sculpting on the way to getting a massive shot of mana it can make immediate use of. I'd second the notion of just using it for card selection for a long time, I typically only start considering filling up the CMC palette when I'm 60% of the way there at the moment of activation. One game it dug me out of a horrible flood as my first five pitches to it were lands. It's not an autoinclude, this one, but I can imagine it finding a home in many casual builds.
A lot of the sentiments brought up in the thread seem accurate. The cheap exile-loot rock is good quality of life at any stage of the game, so assuming the deck can routinely make use of the flip land it makes sense to give it a shot. It's been playing pretty well in my Daxos the Returned list - a slow build that doesn't mind 5+ turns of hand sculpting on the way to getting a massive shot of mana it can make immediate use of. I'd second the notion of just using it for card selection for a long time, I typically only start considering filling up the CMC palette when I'm 60% of the way there at the moment of activation. One game it dug me out of a horrible flood as my first five pitches to it were lands. It's not an autoinclude, this one, but I can imagine it finding a home in many casual builds.
I'm happy to see it make a primer. I do feel like it represents a sort of sub-game win condition. I imagined the same thing where, often it would be lands you are filtering through, so unlikely to flip always 5 turns in. But once flipped, firmly puts you ahead. Makes Winter Orb, Static Orb and Stax effects basically redundant.
One play group I have has really gone heavy into land destruction. Cards like Armageddon, Cataclysm, Catastrophe and even Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds/Ramunap Excavator along with playing extra lands. I feel like this card can really be used to navigate around these types of cards. In fact you might just get near the flip and hold it in case of one of these mass land destruction cards. Being able to flip it is going to put you firmly ahead, so opponents will be forced to hold off on these, until they have an answer. If they do cast a mass land destruction spell before you flip, then it has the added advantage of filtering quickly to find lands and not uncastable spells after mass land removal.
I guess on that note, this card is amazing in decks that pack mass land destruction. I think we have already established that boros WR colors are probably going to best benefit from the draw/loot and accelerated mana, and both these colors have the mass land destruction cards. My friend has a Daretti, Scrap Savant deck that has mass land destruction, and I can see this card being good in that deck, and it's competitive not casual.
It's not infinite, and it's reusable. And yes, every card in the game can be removed. I prefer to think of what cards can do when they aren't. A deck with 40 threats and 20 lands will always beat a deck of 40 answers and 20 lands.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I wasn't denying that. However, most of that card draw costs more than 2 to cast. I also like looting because it lets you run more specific cards. Are you more worried about spells/burn than creatures? Pitch that Awe Strike.
- Rabid Wombat
I think there are two more points worth hitting on but I agree with your logic.
The concept that every card is needed for commander is a little flawed because in any situation a card might be wrong. Lets say you run Coat of Arms but lets say you don't currently have any creatures in play or you are playing against an explosive token deck. In that case that card might be less relevant and you may want to not cast it. While there are a lot of cards with good function and reasons to be run, I can probably give a counter point to playing almost any card at some time or another and filter like Azor's Gateway allows you to improve the quality of your hand by removing your weakest card in every situation.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Fair enough. I guess it does have that.
More than anything, I get tired of the hype. It's a Channel land, but only if opponents let it become one. (As with all DFCs, flip cards, level up cards, and things like Figure of Destiny.)
On phasing:
Clearly it's not infinite. My point was that you can make infinite mana easier than trying to use shenanigans to flip this card. Yes, every card can obviously be removed. Most just don't give your opponents 5 plus turns to get rid of them before they come online. I'm not trying to say this is a terrible card, just that if you are playing it you're going to be doing so for the scry like ability that isn't as good as other scry options.
One play group I have has really gone heavy into land destruction. Cards like Armageddon, Cataclysm, Catastrophe and even Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds/Ramunap Excavator along with playing extra lands. I feel like this card can really be used to navigate around these types of cards. In fact you might just get near the flip and hold it in case of one of these mass land destruction cards. Being able to flip it is going to put you firmly ahead, so opponents will be forced to hold off on these, until they have an answer. If they do cast a mass land destruction spell before you flip, then it has the added advantage of filtering quickly to find lands and not uncastable spells after mass land removal.
I guess on that note, this card is amazing in decks that pack mass land destruction. I think we have already established that boros WR colors are probably going to best benefit from the draw/loot and accelerated mana, and both these colors have the mass land destruction cards. My friend has a Daretti, Scrap Savant deck that has mass land destruction, and I can see this card being good in that deck, and it's competitive not casual.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith