The prerelease hype for Taigam, Ojutai Master was pretty high, if I remember correctly. Extra turns list concepts looked like they might be the next big thing. It doesn't seem like he ever really took off. Looking at EDHRec, he's middling popularity in Azorius colors. Is it his casting cost? The break between CMC 3 and 4 seems to be a chasm in the divide between competitive and almost competitive, where 5 cmc is right out and 2 cmc are corner cases. Is it the requirement to attack? I know another line between competitive and focused casual is that the former don't rely on combat. I'm enjoying my deliberately restrained Ojutai list, and I'm glad I'm unique, not seeing Ojutais at every table, but I don't quite see why. He seems like one of the best commanders in his colors.
Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing when I saw him. Especially with the "instants/sorceries can't be countered" bit.
I'd guess that there's not enough card draw for it, except that you can totally swing him and double a Gush or something during the extra turn you get. So... not sure.
Low representation does not necessarily indicate low interest, if that makes sense. It's just that there are already other "free spells" Commanders (Yidris, Narset, Maelstrom Wanderer), and Taigam has to compete with those. Since he came later, he's fighting against inertia also, on top of it already being a fight that he's ill-equipped to winning in the first place.
Simply put, what's to recommend Taigam over these other options? It can have a strong case, but if it's not a case that just jumps out to you as obvious on the face of the card, there aren't many folks who will switch.
I read an interesting article on EDH Rec about the idea of inertia (link below). Basically the conclusion from their data is that people interested in an idea will have built their decks around an available commander already, and a new commander supporting the same concept will not cause people to switch generals unless it is extremely compelling to do so.
I'm not sure the conclusion is true, but there is the rationale. My playgroup and I are certainly different than that, in that we have deep collections of staple cards that we repurpose into decks that we feel like playing that week, rather than taking one idea and making incremental tweaks. I think that my decks are among the longest-lived in the group, and I tend to dismantle them pretty quickly. I can't resist my inclination toward decks that easily snowball on tempo, and once a deck has done that once or twice, seeing it do that again is not something the table looks forward to.
But elsewhere, I do see players with stuff like an original Coldsnap printing of Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (didn't like Kresh, didn't like Prossh, didn't like Wasitora), and they are still playing stuff like Penumbra Wurm because it just came in clutch for them so many times.
I tried building Taigam, it ended up very much like Narset and Yidris: Endless turns, endless attack, opponent could only watch, very non-interactive, it gets boring after a while.
It's just that there are already other "free spells" Commanders (Yidris, Narset, Maelstrom Wanderer), and Taigam has to compete with those.
IMO, Taigam's static ability is more useful than his trigger that requires putting him in danger. If he's just sitting on your board, nobody can throw counterspells at you while you combo off. Getting rebound requires that he survive combat (or you cast instants/flash before damage is dealt).
It's just that there are already other "free spells" Commanders (Yidris, Narset, Maelstrom Wanderer), and Taigam has to compete with those.
IMO, Taigam's static ability is more useful than his trigger that requires putting him in danger. If he's just sitting on your board, nobody can throw counterspells at you while you combo off. Getting rebound requires that he survive combat (or you cast instants/flash before damage is dealt).
That sort of limits you to spell based combo in U/W,
Really, he can be built a few ways. The way you suggested probably works, but its also not going to draw much interest because its weaker than competitive combo decks and most casual players don't have much of an appetite for a commander that just protects a spell based cbo from being countered.
You can build him as U/W spellslinger, so his counter protection is always relevant and his rebound matters. Then you stop and realize that Narset is better, which also applies to extra turns. Izzet is also better than Azorious for that strat if you want to go 2 color. But, if you want to go U/W spellslinger for some reason, he's your man. Maybe focus on the attack with token spells and pumps/tricks.
Basically, most of what he does well others do better, and the things he does well in a unique way aren't the sort of things that make everyone jump on the bandwagon. For the people that do build him though, he's probably satisfying. I like when commanders like him get printed, as they end up being unique and not just another paint by numbers commander that you see every match modo for 3 months.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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I like when commanders like him get printed, as they end up being unique and not just another paint by numbers commander that you see every match modo for 3 months.
Preach!
I sincerely think that nothing's holding Taigam, Ojutai Master back, considering casual play. The only question is; do you feel like building it?
I for one really like the mechanics but his color combination isn't fitting what i'd want to do with him.
Getting mileage of rebounded buff and evasion spells would be fun and get out of hand fast. Something like a mix of Zada, Hedron Grinder and Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest things.
Unfortunately though he's not in the right colors for spell-slinging, instant & sorcery recursion, haste, double strike and extra combat steps to take out a whole table in a turn through commander damage. If only he were (U/R) i'd love to build him...
As things stand he's a unique commander, who's good at a few things, but other than the rebound thing lacks a definite strength to build around. Yet, he's another commander that can do great stuff with a Reconnaissance in the mix.
I remember when I first saw this card spoiled, I was like wow, I'm in. But I never got interested enough to build a deck around him once out. I guess the biggest thing holding people back is that when it comes to "instant and sorceries" people tend to go storm archetype and without black and red colors, you'll never get that truly explosive deck.
I also remember the hype, I felt like he got a TON of undeserved love compared to the other cards in the release.
The problem, for me at least, is a Commander needs to fun to play, but also function like a machine. It should gel together and not feel clunky. Now, I’m not saying that is Taigam, but, if built any other way besides spell-based combo or extra turns, it feels clunky. So, if a Commander is only “fun” when built a certain way, I feel it really takes away from what Commander is all about.
I do have to say, Taigam is my ideal heroic commander. The problem is that there just aren't enough playable creatures with heroic - in any color, let alone blue.
But it's still not bad because it helps him get through safely with stuff like Hidden Strings and Shadow Rift. He almost sort of becomes a sort of instant-and-sorcery voltron commander.
Plus, if you happen to have any dragons you want to play, they can't be countered... Yay?
So far, budget. He's on my build list, just haven't gotten to it yet. I think I will be building more around the "can't be countered" ability then the rebound.
By combining him with Dovescape and Hushwing Gryff/Tocatli Honor Guard in a tokens + anthems strategy I think I could actually make a casual acceptable version of the Dovescape+Humility deck people hated in the past. Force everyone to play on my terms, my terms being a setting where the scales are rigged in my favor since I can play noncreature spells while my opponents cannot.
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If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I've got him together in a budgetless list and he's considered one of the top decks in a casual meta. Other than cost, there's nothing holding him back.
My list doesn't go for the infinite turn combo (but the pieces are there) - I rely instead on Monastery Mentor, Aetherflux Reservoir and Alms Collector (With plenty of wheel effects) as my primary win conditions - I used to use Worldpurge + Teferi's Protection as my wincon. The deck is a ton of fun to play, isn't as high of profile as commanders like Narset and can sometimes just run out of steam - so careful play is definitely rewarded.
It's a great deck and a huge challenge to play well - but it is the only UW spellslinger commander that's worth a damn in my opinion.
I'm running a Dragonlord Ojutai control deck with a voltron finish and he's a decent card there. I would probably go more heavily into extra turns if he was my general, but the fact that he's so fragile makes me prefer Ojutai. That said, I could probably just switch the two around and the deck would run the same. They both generate nice card advantage, but hexproof on a flying body is a better finisher.
I have to say, I would be more likely to build him than Melek, Izzet Paragon, Dragonlord Ojutai, or any more Riku of Two Reflections decks. Thinking in terms of a combat-oriented spell-slinging deck, copying pump spells, so on, with an affinity for Ponder and similar cheap draw spells for value.
The current list is missing a number of the more expensive tutors, two rocks, and one of the time spells. That being said, the current list has a display avg CMC of 2.44 and alternative cost avg CMC of only 2.32, so reasonably the better list’s 2.35 is actually lower. The current list goldfish’s with an average combo turn 5.22
Not sure where the new list will stand once I’ve been able to afford the cards but by all accounts it’ll do better.
All of that essentially to say I think he’s strong enough to be a viable cEDH but will also admit will never be top of cEDH. Lack of black tutors and white being an underpowered color in EDH limit max power, we can recoup some of this with uncounterable counter spells but still puts the deck just a hair behind.
Beyond that, I’d say a lot of it also comes from what’s been talked about people liking what they’ve got and sticking to what they like instead of investing in a whole new deck to try it out.
Anyways, love my Taigam deck and if you do get notification for this hope it shares some insight from someone who has slowly built and pilots Taigam at cEDH
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I'd guess that there's not enough card draw for it, except that you can totally swing him and double a Gush or something during the extra turn you get. So... not sure.
I feel the same way about Baral, Chief of Compliance, honestly.
- Rabid Wombat
Simply put, what's to recommend Taigam over these other options? It can have a strong case, but if it's not a case that just jumps out to you as obvious on the face of the card, there aren't many folks who will switch.
I read an interesting article on EDH Rec about the idea of inertia (link below). Basically the conclusion from their data is that people interested in an idea will have built their decks around an available commander already, and a new commander supporting the same concept will not cause people to switch generals unless it is extremely compelling to do so.
I'm not sure the conclusion is true, but there is the rationale. My playgroup and I are certainly different than that, in that we have deep collections of staple cards that we repurpose into decks that we feel like playing that week, rather than taking one idea and making incremental tweaks. I think that my decks are among the longest-lived in the group, and I tend to dismantle them pretty quickly. I can't resist my inclination toward decks that easily snowball on tempo, and once a deck has done that once or twice, seeing it do that again is not something the table looks forward to.
But elsewhere, I do see players with stuff like an original Coldsnap printing of Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (didn't like Kresh, didn't like Prossh, didn't like Wasitora), and they are still playing stuff like Penumbra Wurm because it just came in clutch for them so many times.
http://articles.edhrec.com/commander-showdown-vona-vs-ayli-vs-karlov/
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
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Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
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Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
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That sort of limits you to spell based combo in U/W,
Really, he can be built a few ways. The way you suggested probably works, but its also not going to draw much interest because its weaker than competitive combo decks and most casual players don't have much of an appetite for a commander that just protects a spell based cbo from being countered.
You can build him as U/W spellslinger, so his counter protection is always relevant and his rebound matters. Then you stop and realize that Narset is better, which also applies to extra turns. Izzet is also better than Azorious for that strat if you want to go 2 color. But, if you want to go U/W spellslinger for some reason, he's your man. Maybe focus on the attack with token spells and pumps/tricks.
Basically, most of what he does well others do better, and the things he does well in a unique way aren't the sort of things that make everyone jump on the bandwagon. For the people that do build him though, he's probably satisfying. I like when commanders like him get printed, as they end up being unique and not just another paint by numbers commander that you see every match modo for 3 months.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I sincerely think that nothing's holding Taigam, Ojutai Master back, considering casual play. The only question is; do you feel like building it?
I for one really like the mechanics but his color combination isn't fitting what i'd want to do with him.
Getting mileage of rebounded buff and evasion spells would be fun and get out of hand fast. Something like a mix of Zada, Hedron Grinder and Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest things.
Unfortunately though he's not in the right colors for spell-slinging, instant & sorcery recursion, haste, double strike and extra combat steps to take out a whole table in a turn through commander damage. If only he were (U/R) i'd love to build him...
As things stand he's a unique commander, who's good at a few things, but other than the rebound thing lacks a definite strength to build around. Yet, he's another commander that can do great stuff with a Reconnaissance in the mix.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
The problem, for me at least, is a Commander needs to fun to play, but also function like a machine. It should gel together and not feel clunky. Now, I’m not saying that is Taigam, but, if built any other way besides spell-based combo or extra turns, it feels clunky. So, if a Commander is only “fun” when built a certain way, I feel it really takes away from what Commander is all about.
But it's still not bad because it helps him get through safely with stuff like Hidden Strings and Shadow Rift. He almost sort of becomes a sort of instant-and-sorcery voltron commander.
Plus, if you happen to have any dragons you want to play, they can't be countered... Yay?
- Rabid Wombat
By combining him with Dovescape and Hushwing Gryff/Tocatli Honor Guard in a tokens + anthems strategy I think I could actually make a casual acceptable version of the Dovescape+Humility deck people hated in the past. Force everyone to play on my terms, my terms being a setting where the scales are rigged in my favor since I can play noncreature spells while my opponents cannot.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
My list doesn't go for the infinite turn combo (but the pieces are there) - I rely instead on Monastery Mentor, Aetherflux Reservoir and Alms Collector (With plenty of wheel effects) as my primary win conditions - I used to use Worldpurge + Teferi's Protection as my wincon. The deck is a ton of fun to play, isn't as high of profile as commanders like Narset and can sometimes just run out of steam - so careful play is definitely rewarded.
It's a great deck and a huge challenge to play well - but it is the only UW spellslinger commander that's worth a damn in my opinion.
I have to say, I would be more likely to build him than Melek, Izzet Paragon, Dragonlord Ojutai, or any more Riku of Two Reflections decks. Thinking in terms of a combat-oriented spell-slinging deck, copying pump spells, so on, with an affinity for Ponder and similar cheap draw spells for value.
But, I am less likely to go with Taigam than just continuing with Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder, Kess, Dissident Mage or Bruna, Light of Alabaster if I really want White. They've just proven themselves as too effective at doing similar things.
I suppose the one card that I would play with Taigam that I couldn't with the others is Dovescape. I'm not that keen on doing that, though.
So this list isn’t where my deck is at the moment but the goal, meaning I can’t actually speak as to how well this version works ( http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/taigam-control-master-goal/?cb=1547623537 )
The current list is missing a number of the more expensive tutors, two rocks, and one of the time spells. That being said, the current list has a display avg CMC of 2.44 and alternative cost avg CMC of only 2.32, so reasonably the better list’s 2.35 is actually lower. The current list goldfish’s with an average combo turn 5.22
Not sure where the new list will stand once I’ve been able to afford the cards but by all accounts it’ll do better.
All of that essentially to say I think he’s strong enough to be a viable cEDH but will also admit will never be top of cEDH. Lack of black tutors and white being an underpowered color in EDH limit max power, we can recoup some of this with uncounterable counter spells but still puts the deck just a hair behind.
Beyond that, I’d say a lot of it also comes from what’s been talked about people liking what they’ve got and sticking to what they like instead of investing in a whole new deck to try it out.
Anyways, love my Taigam deck and if you do get notification for this hope it shares some insight from someone who has slowly built and pilots Taigam at cEDH