Just this week we had a player debating whether he should Armageddon because he had nothing else to do. Meanwhile, another player had The Ur-Dragon and Scourge of Valkas and five other dragons out. I told him not to because A) that would seal the game for the other player without giving him or us a chance to respond and B) I (and likely other players) would hold it over him for the next several games. He decided not to, and we were able to kill the dragon player.
Moral of the story - don't be stupid. If you can win that turn or the next by wiping all lands, whatever. But if we're all going to sit there topdecking because you're an idiot, you will suffer.
I know some playgroups are fine with MLD, but ours has traditionally been not okay with it.
And, TBH, is there that much difference between Stone Raining a forest and bolting an elf or Smelting a mana rock? They all set you back one mana.
The problem with land destruction, from a "fun" perspective, is what happens when land destruction becomes a viable strategy, but the singleton rule makes that no longer the case. How many land destruction cards cost three mana or less? Stone Rain, Ice Storm, Sinkhole, Rain of Tears, Icequake, Molten Rain, Vindicate, Strip Mine...how many more? Yeah, not really a viable strategy unless you insist on loading up on 8cmc cards or putting things like Rushwood Elemental and Phyrexian Obliterator in your five-color deck.
(In other news, I would love to see a Stone Rain that only targets nonbasics. Nothing quite like "You're doing it to yourself.")
The other problem is idiots who cast Armageddon/Ravages of War in frustration, which is not really a strategy other than trolling. Say my Rith's already done 18 damage to you, and you don't have anything with flying or reach. You're still dead next turn; the only difference is, I don't get the saprolings (and corresponding Aura Shards/Purphoros, God of the Forge/Warstorm Surge triggers). (And this is because Armageddon temporarily more or less freezes the board state.) But a well-played 'geddon is a fine thing.
The third problem is cards like Acid Rain. These are older cards when it was thought everybody would buy a starter deck, a couple boosters, and that's it; IOW, everyone's still playing five colors. These I could actually see an argument for a house ban. (Just remember, Conversion is worse.)
Finally, can I just say, as someone who has played Hermit Druid and walked right into a Back to Basics/Kismet combo wombo, there are things far worse than land destruction out there?
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
My personal guideline is that basic lands are off limits (except if it's loaded up with aura's or something) and non-basics are fair game. I recognize that everybody wants to play the game yet I also recognize that playing more than one color and/or fancy abilities in your land base comes at a cost. Consequently, Armageddon is no no for me, but Ruination is fine.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
In my metas:
- I have one deck (Boros) that runs Armageddon and Ravages of War. They are generally used similar to Silence. (That is, prevent my opponents from casting anything for a turn or two while I win.)
- Two players each have a deck with Death Cloud; one is Tasigur that ramps hard, and so Death Cloud is generally lethal (or close enough), and if it's not lethal he's generally the only one left with mana, while the other is Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest so DC generally means his surviving creatures are huge and he wins in short order.
- One player has a Memnarch deck that will generate infinite mana and steal the entire board.
I like longer games than most people, so I used to run a bunch of Obliterate-type cards and be the guy who uses them carelessly until I figured out that other people aren't having fun with that and I backed off.
Now Ruination is the big hot-button topic in more recent games. As a monocolor-lover I feel it's justified because non-basic lands are often flat-out better than basics, to the point that running only a single color is competitively a non-option. If I have a way to easily discard dead cards then I feel very much justified in running cards that win certain typically-unwinnable matchups but are useless elsewhere, like Boil for monored vs. monoblue.
In addition I just think there should be some potential drawback for playing so many nonbasics that you're forced to scoop to a resolved Ruination, Blood Moon, or Back to Basics. On the other hand, it also feels pretty bad when you hose someone who's innocently playing one of the new four-color commanders using a manabase of nonbasics with an actual tradeoff like Seaside Citadel.
I do like the new Blood Sun; particularly because it hoses fetches, mazes, and strip mines while leaving uncommon multicolor lands more or less functional.
My most valuable resource is my time. I try not to waste it and I appreciate other players that don't often want to play a 2hr+ long game.
LD and Stax strategies slow down the game - oftentimes without a clear path to victory other than slowing other players down tremendously.
LD is fine to me if you can demonstrate your wincon after a wipe. Playing MLD "just to see what happens" is a key trait of the kind of people who (at my LGS's) have trouble finding people that want to play against them.
I've thought about using Keldon Firebombers in my Kalemne deck as a way to disrupt the board. I guess I'm slowly coming around to the idea that MLD is an equalizing factor for Red and White.
As others have mentioned, halfassed used of massive land destruction could make games drag on much longer than necessary. However sometimes a well-timed Armageddon can put that excessively ramping player in check.
I have a Zurgo Helmsmasher deck that's constantly boardwiping everything: creatures, lands, enchantments, artifacts, etc. Why? Because on its own Zurgo is a 3-turn clock. With double strike and a bit of a boost it's a 1-turn clock.
I've found players to be much more antagonistic to control magic and infinite combos than to massive land destruction. But I'm by the philosophy that any legal cards are fair game. If I see how the environment is then I play decks accordingly.
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I tend to only targetted LD to deal with high-power nonbasics like cradle, and MLD only when it wins me the game(I run no MLD cards, but have a few combos that kill everyone else's land). I do not mind any form of land destruction, but am not unaware of how hated it is, nor above using it to my political advantage; at one point I was able to turn a player who was HELPED by a Sinkhole against the player who cast it.
I run Ruination and Volcanic Offering in my Mizzix deck, like stated above certain non basic lands need to be dealt with and no one in my group seems to have a problem with them being in the deck.
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EDH DECKS:
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBRProssh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWGProgenitus - BR Lyzolda - UBGisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts -UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
I play a Lands themed deck. I don't run any geddon effects, but I do run various denial cards intended to slow the game down and keep the ramp decks in check. Specifically, Storm Cauldron and Mana Vortex (and Tabernacle). I can typically play a lot more lands than my opponents, so I usually gain a solid edge.
LD is fine to me if you can demonstrate your wincon after a wipe. Playing MLD "just to see what happens" is a key trait of the kind of people who (at my LGS's) have trouble finding people that want to play against them.
The closest I come to a sweeper is Sunder. I might win on the spot with Seismic Assault, or I might just replay my lands with Mana Bond.
I can also Strip lock my opponents. As far as I'm concerned if my opponents can never hit 2 mana, that is a wincon. I don't usually have trouble finding players. People like me, and my deck is rarely the scariest or most competitive at the table.
I have another deck that can occasionally lock out the opponents with Karn + Mycosynth Lattice, but that's hardly the main objective.
The problems people have with MLD are generally not problems with MLD they are problems with immature or spiteful players so I think it is up us that play the game to recognize the difference and that even in situations that may not seems like it.
MLD is not bad and it is also not use the turn you win or else it is bad bad, it is a tool in a deck to keep check on certain kinds of strategies that people build EDH decks around.
A good example would be your opponents tap out and you have an Abundance in play I would not fault that player for blowing up all the lands at that point.
I’ve faced players wasting and stripmining my first two lands ‘to slow me down’. A Badlands and a Plains IIRC. T2. In multiplayer. While ramping themselves. And looking offended when I scoop.
I don't think the "MLD is bad because sometimes bad people use it badly" is a very good argument for banning it. Love me some LD, it's a great equalizer for red and white, it puts the breaks on the ramp decks that IMO can plague non-combo metas, and the great red nonbasic land can help even the power difference between monocolour (currently with very little going for it) and "lol I'll add a 4th colour because why not it's so easy" (which I'm guilty of as well, because nobody plays MLD around here).
Sadly, most people I play with get mad about MLD, even if they are fine with turns, combo, or dumb ramp ramp win decks.
Generally, I consider MLD as one of the 'anti-fun' strategies along with combo, turns, and various stax/discard. Got no problem playing with or against this stuff but it needs to be kept away from the more relaxed decks or discussed before the game.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Most I've played with don't enjoy it in any form. I don't play any dedicated LD - the closest I have in any deck is Terastodon, Vindicate and Beast Within. I'm not above using them in this context if I need to, but it seems to generate the most ire when I use them in this context 'because I can'. Which I guess is fair. If someone is about to close out a game and LD might help me steal a win, I'd do it. If not, I can see their point.
That being said, I'm more frustrated about being locked out of a game a la stax strategies. It's a waste of my time. I'd rather just say ok, you got me, checkmate, and sweep. Each to their own I guess.
Opinion
I fully support Targeted Land Destruction (TLD), examples being Strip Mine, Stone Rain, etc.
I don't support Mass Land Destruction (MLD), examples being Ruination, Armageddon, etc.
Reasoning
As previously stated, there are busted lands that need to die (Gaia's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, etc.) which die to TLD. However, when you start pushing for MLD, you push the game out of casual and start approaching a meta focused around quick wins. MLD limits the amount of Commanders that you can play as you either need something you can play and then MLD, help you combo quickly, or helps you rebuild quickly.
MLD kills a lot of my desire to play Commander for myself, as I choose commanders that are cool and try to make a solid deck around them. I do believe that MLD would add a lot of strength to both Red and White (arguably Commanders worst mono colors). I just don't think MLD is a healthy place to push Commander as a default for the format. I think that Wizards of the Coast (WotC) should just add cards that push Red/White in a more healthy direction (these colors really, just need more net positive draw. Blue: Just has draw. Black: Draw for life. Green: Expensive power draw).
MLD is just as bad as Infinite Combo to me, because you can't nicely walk into a new meta of casual players and expect to not just slaughter them.
Example: Uril, the Miststalker + some cheap enchantment + one of the many mld. You basically just win.
I'm fine with MLD, so long as it isn't "I'm about to lose, **** you! Armageddon!"
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I personally don't have a problem wirh it but I don't just run it for the sake of it. That said, I do feel there are tons of annoying effects that don't get such a bad rap as Massive LD does.
Targeted LD should be played simply because you will always need a way to deal with problem lands.
Anyone who gets upset about targeted LD probably would get upset about most anything. Simple mass LD (Armageddon, etc.) is probably best avoided in most EDH games, unless the group in question is specifically okay with it, and even then, it is probably best reserved for when doing it will win you the game on the spot. I've seen more groups okay with it when the mass LD results from some janky combo, but even that is somewhat situational. Turning everyone's lands into 2/2 creatures while you have Elesh Norn out? Can you win pretty much on the spot after doing that? If so, cool, GG. If you don't have the board presence to win for another five or six turns after doing that, pretty much a dick move.
to me, a MLD spell like armageddon plays the same roll as any sort of mass destruction spell like damnation. if i get hosed by a wrath of god, it's 'cuz i overextended and need to be kept in check. if i land-ramp utility lands like nuts, the table needs a targeted or mass land-wipe to counter it.
and just as many people hate it when someone throws out an unnecessary wrath due to the player being a troll or just unexperienced about when they should play spells, its the exact same thing with MLD spells. i'm gonna say something potentially controversial, but i think MLD spells in EDH is one of the more skill-intensive spells to know when to use. knowing the potential of each deck, knowing how to leverage the tempo loss to your advantage, floating mana into a post-wipe crucible of worlds or exploration into something else.
I think too many EDH players get rubbed the wrong way once with a bad MLD play, and then sours on the whole thing. I personally only have MLD in kaalia 'cuz kaalia, and its a win-con as is in that deck, but almost every deck i have has at least a couple of targeted land removal. can't play games without protection against some lands.
It is a very rare deck of mine that doesn't include at least a bit of targeted land renewal, even if it's just something like Ghost Quarter. Almost half of my decks include Strip Mine, and I'm a big fan of Shivan Harvest. Some lands just need to die, and that has become even more the case with the legendaries that flip into lands from Ixalan/Rivals.
Running spot LD to take out utility lands or uber powerful lands shouldn't be a question. Just do it. If anyone complains that you just took out their Coffers or the like, tell them to drink their juice box and take a nap like the baby they are.
Running spot LD to keep someone off a color. In most cases, I'm ok with this. It helps keep ppl from comboing off and the like. They should of worked better to color fix while they were building their deck. The only time that I MIGHT see this as a no no is if it's a very casual game and the person is getting screwed by their own deck (like turn 10 and they are missing a color in a 2-3 color deck). That's just me though.
Running MLD. I'm ok with this as long as it moves you to the win. What I'm not ok with is when someone plays MLD for no reason besides just to play a card. If you have it, make sure that it pushes you to the win. If it doesn't, don't play it.
A random geddon for no particular reason I would dislike, but only because it doesn't achieve anything.
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Moral of the story - don't be stupid. If you can win that turn or the next by wiping all lands, whatever. But if we're all going to sit there topdecking because you're an idiot, you will suffer.
I know some playgroups are fine with MLD, but ours has traditionally been not okay with it.
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And, TBH, is there that much difference between Stone Raining a forest and bolting an elf or Smelting a mana rock? They all set you back one mana.
The problem with land destruction, from a "fun" perspective, is what happens when land destruction becomes a viable strategy, but the singleton rule makes that no longer the case. How many land destruction cards cost three mana or less? Stone Rain, Ice Storm, Sinkhole, Rain of Tears, Icequake, Molten Rain, Vindicate, Strip Mine...how many more? Yeah, not really a viable strategy unless you insist on loading up on 8cmc cards or putting things like Rushwood Elemental and Phyrexian Obliterator in your five-color deck.
(In other news, I would love to see a Stone Rain that only targets nonbasics. Nothing quite like "You're doing it to yourself.")
The other problem is idiots who cast Armageddon/Ravages of War in frustration, which is not really a strategy other than trolling. Say my Rith's already done 18 damage to you, and you don't have anything with flying or reach. You're still dead next turn; the only difference is, I don't get the saprolings (and corresponding Aura Shards/Purphoros, God of the Forge/Warstorm Surge triggers). (And this is because Armageddon temporarily more or less freezes the board state.) But a well-played 'geddon is a fine thing.
The third problem is cards like Acid Rain. These are older cards when it was thought everybody would buy a starter deck, a couple boosters, and that's it; IOW, everyone's still playing five colors. These I could actually see an argument for a house ban. (Just remember, Conversion is worse.)
Finally, can I just say, as someone who has played Hermit Druid and walked right into a Back to Basics/Kismet combo wombo, there are things far worse than land destruction out there?
On phasing:
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
- I have one deck (Boros) that runs Armageddon and Ravages of War. They are generally used similar to Silence. (That is, prevent my opponents from casting anything for a turn or two while I win.)
- Two players each have a deck with Death Cloud; one is Tasigur that ramps hard, and so Death Cloud is generally lethal (or close enough), and if it's not lethal he's generally the only one left with mana, while the other is Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest so DC generally means his surviving creatures are huge and he wins in short order.
- One player has a Memnarch deck that will generate infinite mana and steal the entire board.
Beyond that, things like Strip Mine are staples.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Now Ruination is the big hot-button topic in more recent games. As a monocolor-lover I feel it's justified because non-basic lands are often flat-out better than basics, to the point that running only a single color is competitively a non-option. If I have a way to easily discard dead cards then I feel very much justified in running cards that win certain typically-unwinnable matchups but are useless elsewhere, like Boil for monored vs. monoblue.
In addition I just think there should be some potential drawback for playing so many nonbasics that you're forced to scoop to a resolved Ruination, Blood Moon, or Back to Basics. On the other hand, it also feels pretty bad when you hose someone who's innocently playing one of the new four-color commanders using a manabase of nonbasics with an actual tradeoff like Seaside Citadel.
I do like the new Blood Sun; particularly because it hoses fetches, mazes, and strip mines while leaving uncommon multicolor lands more or less functional.
- Rabid Wombat
LD and Stax strategies slow down the game - oftentimes without a clear path to victory other than slowing other players down tremendously.
LD is fine to me if you can demonstrate your wincon after a wipe. Playing MLD "just to see what happens" is a key trait of the kind of people who (at my LGS's) have trouble finding people that want to play against them.
I have a Zurgo Helmsmasher deck that's constantly boardwiping everything: creatures, lands, enchantments, artifacts, etc. Why? Because on its own Zurgo is a 3-turn clock. With double strike and a bit of a boost it's a 1-turn clock.
I've found players to be much more antagonistic to control magic and infinite combos than to massive land destruction. But I'm by the philosophy that any legal cards are fair game. If I see how the environment is then I play decks accordingly.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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WBGGhave Sisters
BUG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Reanimator
BBBSheoldred, Whispering One Swamps-matter ramp
Standard
UR Drake
Pauper
GW Bogle
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
The closest I come to a sweeper is Sunder. I might win on the spot with Seismic Assault, or I might just replay my lands with Mana Bond.
I can also Strip lock my opponents. As far as I'm concerned if my opponents can never hit 2 mana, that is a wincon. I don't usually have trouble finding players. People like me, and my deck is rarely the scariest or most competitive at the table.
I have another deck that can occasionally lock out the opponents with Karn + Mycosynth Lattice, but that's hardly the main objective.
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RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
MLD is not bad and it is also not use the turn you win or else it is bad bad, it is a tool in a deck to keep check on certain kinds of strategies that people build EDH decks around.
A good example would be your opponents tap out and you have an Abundance in play I would not fault that player for blowing up all the lands at that point.
WB Ayli, Eternal Recursion WB - GUPir and Toothy GU - WBR Mathas, Fiend SeekerWBR
Sadly, most people I play with get mad about MLD, even if they are fine with turns, combo, or dumb ramp ramp win decks.
Generally, I consider MLD as one of the 'anti-fun' strategies along with combo, turns, and various stax/discard. Got no problem playing with or against this stuff but it needs to be kept away from the more relaxed decks or discussed before the game.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
That being said, I'm more frustrated about being locked out of a game a la stax strategies. It's a waste of my time. I'd rather just say ok, you got me, checkmate, and sweep. Each to their own I guess.
I fully support Targeted Land Destruction (TLD), examples being Strip Mine, Stone Rain, etc.
I don't support Mass Land Destruction (MLD), examples being Ruination, Armageddon, etc.
Reasoning
As previously stated, there are busted lands that need to die (Gaia's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, etc.) which die to TLD. However, when you start pushing for MLD, you push the game out of casual and start approaching a meta focused around quick wins. MLD limits the amount of Commanders that you can play as you either need something you can play and then MLD, help you combo quickly, or helps you rebuild quickly.
MLD kills a lot of my desire to play Commander for myself, as I choose commanders that are cool and try to make a solid deck around them. I do believe that MLD would add a lot of strength to both Red and White (arguably Commanders worst mono colors). I just don't think MLD is a healthy place to push Commander as a default for the format. I think that Wizards of the Coast (WotC) should just add cards that push Red/White in a more healthy direction (these colors really, just need more net positive draw. Blue: Just has draw. Black: Draw for life. Green: Expensive power draw).
MLD is just as bad as Infinite Combo to me, because you can't nicely walk into a new meta of casual players and expect to not just slaughter them.
Example: Uril, the Miststalker + some cheap enchantment + one of the many mld. You basically just win.
Current EDH
Akroma W | Tymna and Bruse RBW
On phasing:
Targeted LD should be played simply because you will always need a way to deal with problem lands.
to me, a MLD spell like armageddon plays the same roll as any sort of mass destruction spell like damnation. if i get hosed by a wrath of god, it's 'cuz i overextended and need to be kept in check. if i land-ramp utility lands like nuts, the table needs a targeted or mass land-wipe to counter it.
and just as many people hate it when someone throws out an unnecessary wrath due to the player being a troll or just unexperienced about when they should play spells, its the exact same thing with MLD spells. i'm gonna say something potentially controversial, but i think MLD spells in EDH is one of the more skill-intensive spells to know when to use. knowing the potential of each deck, knowing how to leverage the tempo loss to your advantage, floating mana into a post-wipe crucible of worlds or exploration into something else.
I think too many EDH players get rubbed the wrong way once with a bad MLD play, and then sours on the whole thing. I personally only have MLD in kaalia 'cuz kaalia, and its a win-con as is in that deck, but almost every deck i have has at least a couple of targeted land removal. can't play games without protection against some lands.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Running spot LD to take out utility lands or uber powerful lands shouldn't be a question. Just do it. If anyone complains that you just took out their Coffers or the like, tell them to drink their juice box and take a nap like the baby they are.
Running spot LD to keep someone off a color. In most cases, I'm ok with this. It helps keep ppl from comboing off and the like. They should of worked better to color fix while they were building their deck. The only time that I MIGHT see this as a no no is if it's a very casual game and the person is getting screwed by their own deck (like turn 10 and they are missing a color in a 2-3 color deck). That's just me though.
Running MLD. I'm ok with this as long as it moves you to the win. What I'm not ok with is when someone plays MLD for no reason besides just to play a card. If you have it, make sure that it pushes you to the win. If it doesn't, don't play it.
Goblin Green Acres