I am developing a Sen Triplets tempo/control deck, and Aether Gale has been a total house in the games I have played. The ability to selectively bounce a number of permanents has been amazing. This can totally reshape the battlefield, and the ability to select 6 targets is pretty key. The political uses alone are pretty amazing. Deals just seem to materialize to my advantage every time I play it. The only thing close that I have seen for multiplayer EDH has been Decimate, and Aether Gale seems to be the blue version of Decimate. I am looking for cards similar to Aether Gale. Baral's Expertise looks good, but I have yet to try it. Undo has potential, and Withdraw is similar. Wash Out has not seemed to work as well as I had hoped, but in the right deck, it could end up being very useful. River's Rebuke could end up playing well, but is not quite as surgical as I would like, similar to Aetherize. Obviously Cyclonic Rift is often a blowout when overloaded Evacuation, Crush of Tentacles, Devastation Tide, Whelming Wave, and Sunder can all create serious tempo, but lack selectivity. I have wanted almost any other bounce besides Displacement Wave every time I draw it, even though I find it useful against token swarm decks, and I would almost always prefer that it were an Echoing Truth. There are a ton of single target bounce out there, and my personal favorite is Unsubstantiate, and single card bounce can be used very well for control and tempo, but the multi-permanent bounce reduces the card disadvantage that you can acquire by playing them.
Anyway, what are your favorite bounce besides the ubiquitous Cyclonic Rift, and does anyone know of cards similar to Aether Gale that can selectively bounce multiple targets?
MRdown2urth, I appreciate the comment, but I am not sure you are right. I could be wrong, but Gatherer may dispute that claim.
The ruling on Aether Gale on Gatherer states:
"You must choose six different legal targets in order to cast Aether Gale. If some, but not all, of those targets become illegal before Aether Gale resolves, the remaining legal targets will be put into their owners’ hands."
The ruling on Hex on Gatherer states:
"You must target six different creatures. If you can’t, you can’t cast Hex. If some of the creatures become illegal targets before the spell resolves, Hex will still destroy the rest of them."
Both of those first rulings are different than the ruling on Baral's Expertise that states:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
This is identical in wording to the ruling on Kari Zev's Expertise on Gatherer that states:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
This appears to be pretty specific to the Expertise cycle of cards that target creatures other than yours. It doesn't appear that the entire class of multi-target spells fizzle if you choose six legal targets when you cast it, even if they do not stay legal targets until resolution of the spell. Are there rulings on other cards that state differently? Is there a part of the rules that you can refer to that confirms your initial rules claim?
As for what I am looking for, optimally I would find other multi-targeted bounce spells that hit all types or at least all non-land permanents. Single classes of permanents are fine, but not as versatile. I essentially want to know if there are cards very similar to Aether Gale, maybe more or less targets, or more or less classes of permanent.
MRdown2urth, I appreciate the comment, but I am not sure you are right. I could be wrong, but Gatherer may dispute that claim.
The ruling on Aether Gale on Gatherer states:
"You must choose six different legal targets in order to cast Aether Gale. If some, but not all, of those targets become illegal before Aether Gale resolves, the remaining legal targets will be put into their owners’ hands."
The ruling on Hex on Gatherer states:
"You must target six different creatures. If you can’t, you can’t cast Hex. If some of the creatures become illegal targets before the spell resolves, Hex will still destroy the rest of them."
Both of those first rulings are different than the ruling on Baral's Expertise that states:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
This is identical in wording to the ruling on Kari Zev's Expertise on Gatherer that states:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
This appears to be pretty specific to the Expertise cycle of cards that target creatures other than yours. It doesn't appear that the entire class of multi-target spells fizzle if you choose six legal targets when you cast it, even if they do not stay legal targets until resolution of the spell. Are there rulings on other cards that state differently? Is there a part of the rules that you can refer to that confirms your initial rules claim?
As for what I am looking for, optimally I would find other multi-targeted bounce spells that hit all types or at least all non-land permanents. Single classes of permanents are fine, but not as versatile. I essentially want to know if there are cards very similar to Aether Gale, maybe more or less targets, or more or less classes of permanent.
Interesting, I wonder why the Expertise spells were ruled differently?
The Expertise spells do not act differently, the ruling is simply poorly worded. If you cast Baral's Expertise, and one of the targets become illegal before it resolves, the other two targets will still be bounced and you will get a free spell. The reason there's a ruling on the Expertises but not Aether Gale or Hex is because they have an additional effect besides the effect that targets permanents (the free spell), which won't happen if all of the spell's targets are illegal upon resolution. The other three Expertises don't have this ruling because their effects don't target.
My faourites are less spell oriented and more permanent oriented:
Equilibrium - okay, it requires a specific deck. But it can be anywhere from persistently annoying to a real thorn in the side of your opponents. The wording of play instead of cast means blink can help make this pull its weight. Tidespout Tyrant - This guy is straight up nuts. No other way to say it. Worth the CMC every time. Scourge of Fleets - most valuable in a mono blue build, but still a mass bounce with a fatty on the end. Crystal Shard - Cheap to cast once a turn targeted bounce is nothing to sniff at.
The first two of these seem more what you're looking for, they're both a great time. For you. Hope these help.
The Expertise spells do not act differently, the ruling is simply poorly worded. If you cast Baral's Expertise, and one of the targets become illegal before it resolves, the other two targets will still be bounced and you will get a free spell. The reason there's a ruling on the Expertises but not Aether Gale or Hex is because they have an additional effect besides the effect that targets permanents (the free spell), which won't happen if all of the spell's targets are illegal upon resolution. The other three Expertises don't have this ruling because their effects don't target.
Equilibrium - okay, it requires a specific deck. But it can be anywhere from persistently annoying to a real thorn in the side of your opponents. The wording of play instead of cast means blink can help make this pull its weight.
The Expertise spells do not act differently, the ruling is simply poorly worded. If you cast Baral's Expertise, and one of the targets become illegal before it resolves, the other two targets will still be bounced and you will get a free spell. The reason there's a ruling on the Expertises but not Aether Gale or Hex is because they have an additional effect besides the effect that targets permanents (the free spell), which won't happen if all of the spell's targets are illegal upon resolution. The other three Expertises don't have this ruling because their effects don't target.
I appreciate the reply and feedback, but I really have a hard time seeing how your statement can be true. It seems to be worded well enough.
Baral's Expertise ruling on Gatherer:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
That is clear enough. The spell becomes countered, none of it's effects happen. You don't get to cast a free spell. The only way it could be more clear is if they changed it to "any of those targets" from just "those targets". The way I read it, the key portion is "None of it's effects happen." Bouncing the targets is an effect, and this would be included in the none of the effects happen ruling. The cards would not be bounced at all if one of the targets becomes illegal. This centers around whether only one or all the targets need to be illegal, and taking a cue from the other spells (Aether Gale, etc...) then the clarification applies if ANY not ALL, and they made this clarification so as to allow the free spell to be countered when all the targets are not bounced.
So one of two things is true, but not both:
1. "Those targets become illegal" refers to ANY OF THOSE, and means the entire spell is countered when even one target becomes illegal. This is consistent with the other ruling of the ruling applying when one target becomes illegal, but inconsistent with the prior rulings in that now the entire spell is countered unless all the targets remain legal.
2. "Those targets become illegal" refers to ALL OF THOSE, and hence is consistent with prior rulings in that if even one target remains legal, the spell resolves as written, but inconsistent in that ruling applies only if all targets become illegal.
In either case, the statement "none of it's effects happen" means the bounce and the free spell are both effects. If it doesn't get a free spell, it doesn't bounce any targets, because both of those are effects of the spell, and none happen. The effect of the spell is independent of what triggers the counter of the spell, but either way, none happen when the spell is countered. That is perfectly clear. What is not clear is the trigger of countering the spell. I would love clarification on this. Is there something that makes you understand differently? I am not trying to be contentious, but without other information, I have to conclude that your statement above is mistaken. No free spell, then non bounce. Bounce, then free spell. That seems clear. Can you clarify? I would love to find out for sure that only the free spell is countered unless all targets become illegal.
Very deck-dependant, but I've been trying Barrin, Master Wizard on my Temmet deck. I use it a bit as as sacrifice outlet for triggers and outclassed eternalize guys, but when if you reach a good board position you can make some very wrecking plays. Not that I win a lot, though
The Expertise spells do not act differently, the ruling is simply poorly worded. If you cast Baral's Expertise, and one of the targets become illegal before it resolves, the other two targets will still be bounced and you will get a free spell. The reason there's a ruling on the Expertises but not Aether Gale or Hex is because they have an additional effect besides the effect that targets permanents (the free spell), which won't happen if all of the spell's targets are illegal upon resolution. The other three Expertises don't have this ruling because their effects don't target.
I appreciate the reply and feedback, but I really have a hard time seeing how your statement can be true. It seems to be worded well enough.
Baral's Expertise ruling on Gatherer:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
That is clear enough. The spell becomes countered, none of it's effects happen. You don't get to cast a free spell. The only way it could be more clear is if they changed it to "any of those targets" from just "those targets". The way I read it, the key portion is "None of it's effects happen." Bouncing the targets is an effect, and this would be included in the none of the effects happen ruling. The cards would not be bounced at all if one of the targets becomes illegal. This centers around whether only one or all the targets need to be illegal, and taking a cue from the other spells (Aether Gale, etc...) then the clarification applies if ANY not ALL, and they made this clarification so as to allow the free spell to be countered when all the targets are not bounced.
So one of two things is true, but not both:
1. "Those targets become illegal" refers to ANY OF THOSE, and means the entire spell is countered when even one target becomes illegal. This is consistent with the other ruling of the ruling applying when one target becomes illegal, but inconsistent with the prior rulings in that now the entire spell is countered unless all the targets remain legal.
2. "Those targets become illegal" refers to ALL OF THOSE, and hence is consistent with prior rulings in that if even one target remains legal, the spell resolves as written, but inconsistent in that ruling applies only if all targets become illegal.
In either case, the statement "none of it's effects happen" means the bounce and the free spell are both effects. If it doesn't get a free spell, it doesn't bounce any targets, because both of those are effects of the spell, and none happen. The effect of the spell is independent of what triggers the counter of the spell, but either way, none happen when the spell is countered. That is perfectly clear. What is not clear is the trigger of countering the spell. I would love clarification on this. Is there something that makes you understand differently? I am not trying to be contentious, but without other information, I have to conclude that your statement above is mistaken. No free spell, then non bounce. Bounce, then free spell. That seems clear. Can you clarify? I would love to find out for sure that only the free spell is countered unless all targets become illegal.
The rulings on the cards are not actually rules, but simply applications of the rules. The actual rules are in the Magic Comprehensive Rules.
Specifically, the rulings mentioned so far are talking about rule 608.2b (that shows that we are in your case 2).
608.1. Each time all players pass in succession, the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves. (See rule 609, “Effects.”)
608.2. If the object that’s resolving is an instant spell, a sorcery spell, or an ability, its resolution may involve several steps. The steps described in rules 608.2a and 608.2b are followed first. The steps described in rules 608.2c–j are then followed as appropriate, in no specific order. The step described in rule 608.2k is followed last.
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word “target,” are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won’t be affected by parts of a resolving spell’s effect for which they’re illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.10), those effects don’t apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won’t happen.
Example: Sorin’s Thirst is a black instant that reads, “Sorin’s Thirst deals 2 damage to target creature and you gain 2 life.” If the creature isn’t a legal target during the resolution of Sorin’s Thirst (say, if the creature has gained protection from black or left the battlefield), then Sorin’s Thirst is countered. Its controller doesn’t gain any life.
Example: Plague Spores reads, “Destroy target nonblack creature and target land. They can’t be regenerated.” Suppose the same animated land is chosen both as the nonblack creature and as the land, and the color of the creature land is changed to black before Plague Spores resolves. Plagues Spores isn’t countered because the black creature land is still a legal target for the “target land” part of the spell. The “destroy target nonblack creature” part of the spell won’t affect that permanent, but the “destroy target land” part of the spell will still destroy it. It can’t be regenerated.
(note, 608.1 and 2 ain't really relevant, but provided for context - I added boldfont to be clear).
That is perfect Reaper9889! If all three previously legal targets are subsequently illegal for Baral's Expertise, then you don't get the free spell, but if any of the targets is still legal, those legal targets are bounced, and you get the free spell. That is how I would hope it would work, and is actually how that specific application of the rules' wording reads anyway. The Expertise spells work the same as Hex and Aether Gale, with the addition that having any legal targets is necessary for the additional effect to happen.
Thank you for clearing that up. And thanks all so far for the suggestions on other mass bounce spells. For context, this is the deck I am developing:
Sente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
Anyway, what are your favorite bounce besides the ubiquitous Cyclonic Rift, and does anyone know of cards similar to Aether Gale that can selectively bounce multiple targets?
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
I use CRift, Curse of the Swine, Evac, and KLeviathan in monoblue decks.
EDIT: Just know that these multiple-target cards fizzle if someone sacs one of the targets in response.
Also, Hour of Need kinda?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
The ruling on Aether Gale on Gatherer states:
"You must choose six different legal targets in order to cast Aether Gale. If some, but not all, of those targets become illegal before Aether Gale resolves, the remaining legal targets will be put into their owners’ hands."
The ruling on Hex on Gatherer states:
"You must target six different creatures. If you can’t, you can’t cast Hex. If some of the creatures become illegal targets before the spell resolves, Hex will still destroy the rest of them."
There is no similar ruling on Curse of the Swine, Distorting Wake, Recantation, or Turbulent Dreams to compare to.
Both of those first rulings are different than the ruling on Baral's Expertise that states:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
This is identical in wording to the ruling on Kari Zev's Expertise on Gatherer that states:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
This appears to be pretty specific to the Expertise cycle of cards that target creatures other than yours. It doesn't appear that the entire class of multi-target spells fizzle if you choose six legal targets when you cast it, even if they do not stay legal targets until resolution of the spell. Are there rulings on other cards that state differently? Is there a part of the rules that you can refer to that confirms your initial rules claim?
As for what I am looking for, optimally I would find other multi-targeted bounce spells that hit all types or at least all non-land permanents. Single classes of permanents are fine, but not as versatile. I essentially want to know if there are cards very similar to Aether Gale, maybe more or less targets, or more or less classes of permanent.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
As for mass bounce, I actually like that most of the ones I use are not so selective... it sometimes helps politically to not have the option. I use Cyclonic Rift, Aetherize, Aetherspouts, Mystic Confluence, and Wash Out being the primary ones I use. I’m a fan of Aether Gale, Devastation Tide, Evacuation, and Aetherspouts, but I’ve never had occasion to run them all.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Interesting, I wonder why the Expertise spells were ruled differently?
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Also, Battlefield Thaumaturge likes these spells.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Equilibrium - okay, it requires a specific deck. But it can be anywhere from persistently annoying to a real thorn in the side of your opponents. The wording of play instead of cast means blink can help make this pull its weight.
Tidespout Tyrant - This guy is straight up nuts. No other way to say it. Worth the CMC every time.
Scourge of Fleets - most valuable in a mono blue build, but still a mass bounce with a fatty on the end.
Crystal Shard - Cheap to cast once a turn targeted bounce is nothing to sniff at.
The first two of these seem more what you're looking for, they're both a great time. For you. Hope these help.
Splendid.
Thank you for the clarification.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
The creature needs to be cast as a spell. You can't blink with it.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25568
As for the op, River's Rebuke is basically Cyclonic Rift for only one player.
I appreciate the reply and feedback, but I really have a hard time seeing how your statement can be true. It seems to be worded well enough.
Baral's Expertise ruling on Gatherer:
"If the Expertise spell you cast has any targets, and those targets become illegal before the spell resolves, the spell is countered and none of its effects happen. You won’t get to cast a free spell."
That is clear enough. The spell becomes countered, none of it's effects happen. You don't get to cast a free spell. The only way it could be more clear is if they changed it to "any of those targets" from just "those targets". The way I read it, the key portion is "None of it's effects happen." Bouncing the targets is an effect, and this would be included in the none of the effects happen ruling. The cards would not be bounced at all if one of the targets becomes illegal. This centers around whether only one or all the targets need to be illegal, and taking a cue from the other spells (Aether Gale, etc...) then the clarification applies if ANY not ALL, and they made this clarification so as to allow the free spell to be countered when all the targets are not bounced.
So one of two things is true, but not both:
1. "Those targets become illegal" refers to ANY OF THOSE, and means the entire spell is countered when even one target becomes illegal. This is consistent with the other ruling of the ruling applying when one target becomes illegal, but inconsistent with the prior rulings in that now the entire spell is countered unless all the targets remain legal.
2. "Those targets become illegal" refers to ALL OF THOSE, and hence is consistent with prior rulings in that if even one target remains legal, the spell resolves as written, but inconsistent in that ruling applies only if all targets become illegal.
In either case, the statement "none of it's effects happen" means the bounce and the free spell are both effects. If it doesn't get a free spell, it doesn't bounce any targets, because both of those are effects of the spell, and none happen. The effect of the spell is independent of what triggers the counter of the spell, but either way, none happen when the spell is countered. That is perfectly clear. What is not clear is the trigger of countering the spell. I would love clarification on this. Is there something that makes you understand differently? I am not trying to be contentious, but without other information, I have to conclude that your statement above is mistaken. No free spell, then non bounce. Bounce, then free spell. That seems clear. Can you clarify? I would love to find out for sure that only the free spell is countered unless all targets become illegal.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
The rulings on the cards are not actually rules, but simply applications of the rules. The actual rules are in the Magic Comprehensive Rules.
Specifically, the rulings mentioned so far are talking about rule 608.2b (that shows that we are in your case 2).
608.2. If the object that’s resolving is an instant spell, a sorcery spell, or an ability, its resolution may involve several steps. The steps described in rules 608.2a and 608.2b are followed first. The steps described in rules 608.2c–j are then followed as appropriate, in no specific order. The step described in rule 608.2k is followed last.
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word “target,” are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won’t be affected by parts of a resolving spell’s effect for which they’re illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.10), those effects don’t apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won’t happen.
Example: Sorin’s Thirst is a black instant that reads, “Sorin’s Thirst deals 2 damage to target creature and you gain 2 life.” If the creature isn’t a legal target during the resolution of Sorin’s Thirst (say, if the creature has gained protection from black or left the battlefield), then Sorin’s Thirst is countered. Its controller doesn’t gain any life.
Example: Plague Spores reads, “Destroy target nonblack creature and target land. They can’t be regenerated.” Suppose the same animated land is chosen both as the nonblack creature and as the land, and the color of the creature land is changed to black before Plague Spores resolves. Plagues Spores isn’t countered because the black creature land is still a legal target for the “target land” part of the spell. The “destroy target nonblack creature” part of the spell won’t affect that permanent, but the “destroy target land” part of the spell will still destroy it. It can’t be regenerated.
Thank you for clearing that up. And thanks all so far for the suggestions on other mass bounce spells. For context, this is the deck I am developing:
Sente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!