It's always an ability that's used the stack to resolve, at least on mtgo.
Seems like mtgo is wrong then. There's no reason it should use the stack.
605.1. Some activated abilities and some triggered abilities are mana abilities, which are subject to special rules. Only abilities that meet either of the following two sets of criteria are mana abilities, regardless of what other effects they may generate or what timing restrictions (such as “Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant”) they may have.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”)
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
I suppose this one has political value, like if you know one opponent has a Wrath (e.g., because of Gitaxian Probe), but only has three mana available, and there's some threat which, left unanswered, will end the game. Very corner-case, though.
Why would you need git probe? Surely they'd tell you "hey, I need a mana to stop this game-ending threat, can you lend me a mana please?" Unless they just didn't notice it, or didn't know it worked.
Because a lot of playgroups have a house rule of "no revealing what's in your hand (unless a card requires it)".
They could've also used Jasmine Seer to reveal a Wrath or whatever, doesn't really matter to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Because a lot of playgroups have a house rule of "no revealing what's in your hand (unless a card requires it)".
They could've also used Jasmine Seer to reveal a Wrath or whatever, doesn't really matter to me.
Well first, that's ridiculous, and second, you don't have to reveal the card. You could just say "hey, I have an answer, give me a mana" or if you want to be even more vague, "hey, give me a mana, it'll be worth it." or, if you've been rendered incapable of speech because you're trying to be a tragically sympathetic oscar-winning protagonist, just point at the lantern and make grunting sounds or something.
3 mana rocks that tap for 1 aren't particularly good (Coalition Relic, Commander's Sphere and maybe Chromatic Lantern in 4-5c decks are the only exceptions I can think of). Stapling a gimmick onto it doesn't change this.
I suppose this one has political value, like if you know one opponent has a Wrath (e.g., because of Gitaxian Probe), but only has three mana available, and there's some threat which, left unanswered, will end the game. Very corner-case, though.
Unrelated to today but I gained a newfound appreciation for Darksteel Ingot the other day. It got jammed into a new 5C deck since I'm short signets and relics right now, and I realized that my meta finally is at a point where it is running "enough" artifact destruction. Indestructibility saved my relic from a Vandalblast, a Bumbling Pangolin (it was an Un-day), a Bane of Progress, and warded off a Terastodon and Krosan Grip. My meta is weird about Land Destruction but 100% on board mana rock destruction, and that indestructibility saved my bacon.
Saw a group hug player play this card a while ago, and as he passed the turn, one opponent asked how we could get him to give us the mana. The next player in the turn order untapped, drew his card for the turn and immediately asked "hey, can I have a mana?"
The group hug player tapped Searchlight and said "that's how."
Let's go through the "is it good removal?" checklist. Instant speed? Yup. Costs 2 or less (3 if it hits any permanent)? Sure thing. Relevant upside? I'd say so. Seems plenty playable to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I'd disagree. targeting enchantments only is too narrow to be worth inclusion imo, especially since green has many cards at the same cost that can take out artifacts and enchantments. The upside will occasinally be great but there has to be multiple important enchantments AND you have to win a clash, which is probably like ~40% or whatever, so odds are low of getting value from this. Way rather just run naturalize.
Yeah, while there are some very dangerous enchantments around, there's plenty of times when there aren't any in a game. It's not like artifacts, where you can point your Shattering Spree at a couple of mana rocks if nothing big is around, this can easily be a completely dead card. Now throw in the existence of Nature's Claim, Naturalize, Deglamer, Unravel the Aether etc., and Spring Cleaning really doesn't impress me.
The biggest problem is clash. So, half the time, depending on your meta, more so if your deck is optimized, this is just an expensive Demystify. (And of course, there are strictlybetters for Demystify.)
Animar doesn't have access to white enchantment removal, so there's a lot less of the "How many of this effect do you need?"
On the flipside, if you're running Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, you will get hit for 6 if you cast Spring Cleaning. But you know? Usually when I cast removal, getting hit for 6 is an OK cost.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'd disagree. targeting enchantments only is too narrow to be worth inclusion imo, especially since green has many cards at the same cost that can take out artifacts and enchantments. The upside will occasinally be great but there has to be multiple important enchantments AND you have to win a clash, which is probably like ~40% or whatever, so odds are low of getting value from this. Way rather just run naturalize.
I dunno. I kind of like it but it's near useless in my meta where enchantments have a hard time getting destroyed and staying dead. Krosan Grip is too crucial.
But in a strong Scry deck or something where you can stack the deck in your favor, I can see this having some use. Even if you lose the clash, you take out at least one enchantments. If you win the clash, you take out all your opponents. Better hope your diplomacy skills are up to snuff.
Not worth playing. Green has so many things to destroy artifact and enchantments. You need answers that are versatile, so unless you play a lot of enchantment decks, I would never think of this. Even then, I would play Bane of Progress and back to Nature first.
Well there's always back to nature. Obviously less good if you're packing enchantments yourself, but way more reliable.
I have a streak in my play style so I probably wouldn't mind doing Back to Nature myself. I don't see too many players quite as self destructive though... I dunno, YMMV.
"Enchantments are great cause they're so resilient!" - mtgsalvation
"Destroy all enchantments for half the cost of any other type specific board wipe? Why would I run that?" - also mtgsalvation
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
"Enchantments are great cause they're so resilient!" - mtgsalvation
"Destroy all enchantments for half the cost of any other type specific board wipe? Why would I run that?" - also mtgsalvation
Eh, it’s a bad card, though. For the “basic” effect, Naturalize and the other variants are just way better. For the “clashed” effect, which isn’t an “always on” effect, it’s cute, but if I know I’m going up against some enchantress build or whatnot, Back to Nature is way better considering most enchantress decks run Greater Auramancy or Sterling Grove leaving Spring Cleaning completely dead. I’ll pay the extra to get the guaranteed effect.
Also MTGSalvation “How dare you not share my opinion, as it’s the only one that matters!”. I kid, I kid, but for reals, Spring Cleaning isn’t that good.
"Enchantments are great cause they're so resilient!" - mtgsalvation
"Destroy all enchantments for half the cost of any other type specific board wipe? Why would I run that?" - also mtgsalvation
While i agree with the first quote and even say that they are my favorite card type, i'd say Spring Cleaning is both a meta call and has to fit in the right deck.
My first thought was "Why did i never see this in Rashmi, Eternities Crafter?", as the commander comes with plenty of top deck manipulation to both set up the clash as well as casting it for free.
Just recently i added Back to Nature to one of my decks, where it has been amazing, and i might add it to another 2. While it has to fit the deck (as in not a ton of vital enchanments) it is unconditional. While Spring Cleaning might do the same thing, even one-sidedly, it clearly depends if it can do so somewhat reliably.
And that's where it will fall short in most (of my) decks. The more you're concerned about curve and mana-efficient plays, the less likely you'll be able to win the clash. Other than Rashmi, Eternities Crafter i could see it played in Riku of Two Reflections and Wort, the Raidmother where you can double up those chances or at least hit 2 enchantments.
tl,dr: Back to Nature is usually better and more reliable. But it's a card that could do well in the right decks.
[
Eh, it’s a bad card, though. For the “basic” effect, Naturalize and the other variants are just way better. For the “clashed” effect, which isn’t an “always on” effect, it’s cute, but if I know I’m going up against some enchantress build or whatnot, Back to Nature is way better considering most enchantress decks run Greater Auramancy or Sterling Grove leaving Spring Cleaning completely dead. I’ll pay the extra to get the guaranteed effect.
It reliably does half of naturalize, and can also get around Sterling Grove in a pinch. Sure, it takes some deliberate deckbuilding to make it hit max performance, but I'd say setting up clashes is less restrictive than "don't play enchantments so you don't have to wipe yourself."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
And any other meta you're going to want to hit at least Artifacts as well, since the Artifact:Enchantment ratio of most decks is so unbalanced that hitting enchantments should generally be considered a bonus on your Artifact removal rather than something you make space for explicitly.
"Enchantments are great cause they're so resilient!" - mtgsalvation
"Destroy all enchantments for half the cost of any other type specific board wipe? Why would I run that?" - also mtgsalvation
I'd call it resiliency through obscurity.
Of the card types, enchantments are among the least likely to be important to remove. There are exceptions, obviously, but just as a general rule. There are many games where "destroy target enchantment" is irrelevant or even uncastable. So, people run fewer answers, so the ones that get played are more resilient. Basically the same reason that low-tier decks have the advantage of fewer sideboard counters in tournaments.
Not to say enchantment removal isn't worth running, but I'd like any I run to be more versatile - i.e. naturalize or one of its many, many variants - so I know it won't be rotting in my hand.
Llorwyn was such a great block and still my favorite. I only got into competitive magic at the end of its life cycle but it still had so many amazing cards.
Spring Cleaning is not a card I find particularly amazing in EDH, but there is still the chance. Most EDH decks I see focus more on artifacts. So something like an overloaded Vandalblast is far more dangerous (Even if you could only hit one person with and overloaded Vandalblast.
Not to say enchantment removal isn't worth running, but I'd like any I run to be more versatile - i.e. naturalize or one of its many, many variants - so I know it won't be rotting in my hand.
Are there as many enchantments played as artifacts or creatures? No. But that's because people pack their decks full of mana rocks and utility creatures. Focus on cards worth saving spot-removal for and enchantments are plenty well represented. Rhystic Study, Mirari's Wake, Doubling Season, Humility, Necropotence, Mind Over Matter, Mana Reflection, Omniscience. This isn't like drafting a Demystify, enchantments are must answer threats here.. Basically...
"I hate it when people fire off removal indiscriminately. Good players wait to answer real threats." - mtgsalvation
"I don't play removal spells unless they're versatile or board wipey enough to fire off indiscriminately." - also mtgsalvation
I'm not trying to claim this card is amazing and should be in every green deck ever, but you're all dismissing it based on conventional wisdoms that really aren't very wise. "Just emchantment removal isn't good enough" is accepted truth just like "board wipes are better than spot removal in multiplayer" is accepted truth, and that's how you get a bunch of decks that can't keep creatures in play long enough to win in a reasonable timeframe complaining that combos aren't fair.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Not to say enchantment removal isn't worth running, but I'd like any I run to be more versatile - i.e. naturalize or one of its many, many variants - so I know it won't be rotting in my hand.
Are there as many enchantments played as artifacts or creatures? No. But that's because people pack their decks full of mana rocks and utility creatures. Focus on cards worth saving spot-removal for and enchantments are plenty well represented. Rhystic Study, Mirari's Wake, Doubling Season, Humility, Necropotence, Mind Over Matter, Mana Reflection, Omniscience. This isn't like drafting a Demystify, enchantments are must answer threats here.. Basically...
"I hate it when people fire off removal indiscriminately. Good players wait to answer real threats." - mtgsalvation
"I don't play removal spells unless they're versatile or board wipey enough to fire off indiscriminately." - also mtgsalvation
I'm not trying to claim this card is amazing and should be in every green deck ever, but you're all dismissing it based on conventional wisdoms that really aren't very wise. "Just emchantment removal isn't good enough" is accepted truth just like "board wipes are better than spot removal in multiplayer" is accepted truth, and that's how you get a bunch of decks that can't keep creatures in play long enough to win in a reasonable timeframe complaining that combos aren't fair.
-I love how you deliberately cut out the part of my post where I explicitly say that of course there are enchantments worth removing. So you can make a list of enchantments worth removing.
-Why on earth would answers being versatile mean you have to fire them off indiscriminately? Being versatile means you can wait for the exact right permanent to use it on.
-Just enchantment removal isn't good enough...because removal that hits artifact AND enchantments is available at THE SAME COST. Why would you play spring cleaning while naturalize and its many clones exist? (well...possibly because you're running enchanted evening, but I think that's the only real application for this card). If those didn't exist you might have a point.
-I wouldn't say "board wipes are better than spot removal" is accepted, at all. I certainly don't accept that. They serve different functions. Control decks usually want some of both.
-Besides that, high concentrations of board wipes pushing the metagame in an undesirable direction doesn't make the supposed maxim wrong. It might mean people should avoid following it to preserve an enjoyable experience, but that's not the same thing as wrong (although it is also wrong).
Not to say enchantment removal isn't worth running, but I'd like any I run to be more versatile - i.e. naturalize or one of its many, many variants - so I know it won't be rotting in my hand.
Are there as many enchantments played as artifacts or creatures? No. But that's because people pack their decks full of mana rocks and utility creatures. Focus on cards worth saving spot-removal for and enchantments are plenty well represented. Rhystic Study, Mirari's Wake, Doubling Season, Humility, Necropotence, Mind Over Matter, Mana Reflection, Omniscience. This isn't like drafting a Demystify, enchantments are must answer threats here.. Basically...
"I hate it when people fire off removal indiscriminately. Good players wait to answer real threats." - mtgsalvation
"I don't play removal spells unless they're versatile or board wipey enough to fire off indiscriminately." - also mtgsalvation
I'm not trying to claim this card is amazing and should be in every green deck ever, but you're all dismissing it based on conventional wisdoms that really aren't very wise. "Just emchantment removal isn't good enough" is accepted truth just like "board wipes are better than spot removal in multiplayer" is accepted truth, and that's how you get a bunch of decks that can't keep creatures in play long enough to win in a reasonable timeframe complaining that combos aren't fair.
-I love how you deliberately cut out the part of my post where I explicitly say that of course there are enchantments worth removing. So you can make a list of enchantments worth removing.
-Why on earth would answers being versatile mean you have to fire them off indiscriminately? Being versatile means you can wait for the exact right permanent to use it on.
-Just enchantment removal isn't good enough...because removal that hits artifact AND enchantments is available at THE SAME COST. Why would you play spring cleaning while naturalize and its many clones exist? (well...possibly because you're running enchanted evening, but I think that's the only real application for this card). If those didn't exist you might have a point.
-I wouldn't say "board wipes are better than spot removal" is accepted, at all. I certainly don't accept that. They serve different functions. Control decks usually want some of both.
-Besides that, high concentrations of board wipes pushing the metagame in an undesirable direction doesn't make the supposed maxim wrong. It might mean people should avoid following it to preserve an enjoyable experience, but that's not the same thing as wrong (although it is also wrong).
This back and forth has really deterred me from coming to this thread, as it’s gone on for the past few cards.
Seriously, let it go, both of you. Different stroke for different folks. Pretty sure this isn’t the place for these discussions, legitimate or not.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
605.1. Some activated abilities and some triggered abilities are mana abilities, which are subject to special rules. Only abilities that meet either of the following two sets of criteria are mana abilities, regardless of what other effects they may generate or what timing restrictions (such as “Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant”) they may have.
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”)
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.) Why would you need git probe? Surely they'd tell you "hey, I need a mana to stop this game-ending threat, can you lend me a mana please?" Unless they just didn't notice it, or didn't know it worked.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
They could've also used Jasmine Seer to reveal a Wrath or whatever, doesn't really matter to me.
On phasing:
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Unrelated to today but I gained a newfound appreciation for Darksteel Ingot the other day. It got jammed into a new 5C deck since I'm short signets and relics right now, and I realized that my meta finally is at a point where it is running "enough" artifact destruction. Indestructibility saved my relic from a Vandalblast, a Bumbling Pangolin (it was an Un-day), a Bane of Progress, and warded off a Terastodon and Krosan Grip. My meta is weird about Land Destruction but 100% on board mana rock destruction, and that indestructibility saved my bacon.
(still lost because Grusilda, Monster Masher was running the table but holding back, and then we all died to Xira Arien using Kindred Summons for 20 insects, sacing half her board to Devouring Swarm, and killing us all with the counters gained from Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest. ah, commander).
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
The group hug player tapped Searchlight and said "that's how."
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Let's go through the "is it good removal?" checklist. Instant speed? Yup. Costs 2 or less (3 if it hits any permanent)? Sure thing. Relevant upside? I'd say so. Seems plenty playable to me.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I could see it in Animar, Soul of Elements. Mostly because
On the flipside, if you're running Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, you will get hit for 6 if you cast Spring Cleaning. But you know? Usually when I cast removal, getting hit for 6 is an OK cost.
It also has a lot of value in Mayael the Anima, Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, Prime Speaker Zegana, and presumably any other "power matters" deck, just because high-power creatures tend to be expensive, as are cards like Collective Blessing which boost power.
It also has a few cute synergies like Sylvan Library.
On phasing:
I dunno. I kind of like it but it's near useless in my meta where enchantments have a hard time getting destroyed and staying dead. Krosan Grip is too crucial.
But in a strong Scry deck or something where you can stack the deck in your favor, I can see this having some use. Even if you lose the clash, you take out at least one enchantments. If you win the clash, you take out all your opponents. Better hope your diplomacy skills are up to snuff.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I have a streak in my play style so I probably wouldn't mind doing Back to Nature myself. I don't see too many players quite as self destructive though... I dunno, YMMV.
"Destroy all enchantments for half the cost of any other type specific board wipe? Why would I run that?" - also mtgsalvation
Eh, it’s a bad card, though. For the “basic” effect, Naturalize and the other variants are just way better. For the “clashed” effect, which isn’t an “always on” effect, it’s cute, but if I know I’m going up against some enchantress build or whatnot, Back to Nature is way better considering most enchantress decks run Greater Auramancy or Sterling Grove leaving Spring Cleaning completely dead. I’ll pay the extra to get the guaranteed effect.
Also MTGSalvation “How dare you not share my opinion, as it’s the only one that matters!”. I kid, I kid, but for reals, Spring Cleaning isn’t that good.
My first thought was "Why did i never see this in Rashmi, Eternities Crafter?", as the commander comes with plenty of top deck manipulation to both set up the clash as well as casting it for free.
Just recently i added Back to Nature to one of my decks, where it has been amazing, and i might add it to another 2. While it has to fit the deck (as in not a ton of vital enchanments) it is unconditional. While Spring Cleaning might do the same thing, even one-sidedly, it clearly depends if it can do so somewhat reliably.
And that's where it will fall short in most (of my) decks. The more you're concerned about curve and mana-efficient plays, the less likely you'll be able to win the clash. Other than Rashmi, Eternities Crafter i could see it played in Riku of Two Reflections and Wort, the Raidmother where you can double up those chances or at least hit 2 enchantments.
tl,dr: Back to Nature is usually better and more reliable. But it's a card that could do well in the right decks.
It reliably does half of naturalize, and can also get around Sterling Grove in a pinch. Sure, it takes some deliberate deckbuilding to make it hit max performance, but I'd say setting up clashes is less restrictive than "don't play enchantments so you don't have to wipe yourself."
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
And any other meta you're going to want to hit at least Artifacts as well, since the Artifact:Enchantment ratio of most decks is so unbalanced that hitting enchantments should generally be considered a bonus on your Artifact removal rather than something you make space for explicitly.
Of the card types, enchantments are among the least likely to be important to remove. There are exceptions, obviously, but just as a general rule. There are many games where "destroy target enchantment" is irrelevant or even uncastable. So, people run fewer answers, so the ones that get played are more resilient. Basically the same reason that low-tier decks have the advantage of fewer sideboard counters in tournaments.
Not to say enchantment removal isn't worth running, but I'd like any I run to be more versatile - i.e. naturalize or one of its many, many variants - so I know it won't be rotting in my hand.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Spring Cleaning is not a card I find particularly amazing in EDH, but there is still the chance. Most EDH decks I see focus more on artifacts. So something like an overloaded Vandalblast is far more dangerous (Even if you could only hit one person with and overloaded Vandalblast.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Are there as many enchantments played as artifacts or creatures? No. But that's because people pack their decks full of mana rocks and utility creatures. Focus on cards worth saving spot-removal for and enchantments are plenty well represented. Rhystic Study, Mirari's Wake, Doubling Season, Humility, Necropotence, Mind Over Matter, Mana Reflection, Omniscience. This isn't like drafting a Demystify, enchantments are must answer threats here.. Basically...
"I hate it when people fire off removal indiscriminately. Good players wait to answer real threats." - mtgsalvation
"I don't play removal spells unless they're versatile or board wipey enough to fire off indiscriminately." - also mtgsalvation
I'm not trying to claim this card is amazing and should be in every green deck ever, but you're all dismissing it based on conventional wisdoms that really aren't very wise. "Just emchantment removal isn't good enough" is accepted truth just like "board wipes are better than spot removal in multiplayer" is accepted truth, and that's how you get a bunch of decks that can't keep creatures in play long enough to win in a reasonable timeframe complaining that combos aren't fair.
-Why on earth would answers being versatile mean you have to fire them off indiscriminately? Being versatile means you can wait for the exact right permanent to use it on.
-Just enchantment removal isn't good enough...because removal that hits artifact AND enchantments is available at THE SAME COST. Why would you play spring cleaning while naturalize and its many clones exist? (well...possibly because you're running enchanted evening, but I think that's the only real application for this card). If those didn't exist you might have a point.
-I wouldn't say "board wipes are better than spot removal" is accepted, at all. I certainly don't accept that. They serve different functions. Control decks usually want some of both.
-Besides that, high concentrations of board wipes pushing the metagame in an undesirable direction doesn't make the supposed maxim wrong. It might mean people should avoid following it to preserve an enjoyable experience, but that's not the same thing as wrong (although it is also wrong).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This back and forth has really deterred me from coming to this thread, as it’s gone on for the past few cards.
Seriously, let it go, both of you. Different stroke for different folks. Pretty sure this isn’t the place for these discussions, legitimate or not.