This is one of my very favorite ccounterspells, for the flexibility it offers. Very solid card, I have never had it in hand and lacked for things to do with it.
In EDH, flexible removal is fair game with a little added mana cost, I wouldn't play this over Counterspell, but it ranks higher than most cmc 3 counters.
I've never been unhappy playing Desert Twister, and this works a little similar in a blue deck.
But yes, this is basically blue's version of Vindicate. That flexibility is always better. Especially since a lot of activated abilities are game-ending. Plus, your opponent might play something like Cavern of Souls and this allows you to still counter enter triggers.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Card is solid, and I run it in a few decks, but you should be exhausting your options for good 0-2 mana counterspells before playing this. The extra mana means a lot. As for 3 cmc counters, I prettymuch always run Unwind over this.
Casting this without madness is pretty low powered. Casting it with Madness requires you to be discarding it with a lot of mana up to make it worthwhile, and hopefully at someone's end step to guarantee a swing. I'd say this card is a waste of effort, but I think Chromium, the Mutable may have just given us our first black commander with free instant discard outlet that would like to hold up mana all the time.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
At my point of being in the format, my Zombies have to a)fight for space with other subthemes and b) are spoilt for choice within their limited allocated slots that this doesn't even get past the nomination rounds (to be fair though my other subthemes don't include discard, if it did it would at least get past that round together with Army of the Damned), but purely from a flavor standpoint I can see newbie/casual player wanting this for their decks - it's cheap (its basically found in jank bins), fits thematically and while it's admittedly low-powered (well I'm spoilt for choices having seen and experienced way better cards), it's by no means actually bad... so I guess it makes a it reasonable... the kind of card I would throw into a "quick, budget zombie deck if I had to make one (most likely for a new player)".
White Sun's Zenith is usually pretty strong, so I don't see why giving it the zombie tag, making it cheaper, and gaining you life could be bad. Enabling the thing is the tough part.
I only run it in Krav, the UnredeemedxRegna, the Redeemer, as both of its effects are relevant for either partner, even if not madness'd out. A never recommend running madness cards if they are only good when played for their alt cost, so this usually gets tucked, suitably, under the floorboards.
The madness option is what we're going for here, obviously. (Though correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 3mm the normal cost for three 2/2 tokens? Comparisons are either to "one, with a small hoop for three" for 3G, three 1/1s for 3W or 3GGwith convokeor1RR, three 2/2s on a modal spell for 4GW, and three for 4BBwith cycling which also gives you a zombie token.) Someone will have to tell me, can I discard this to Bog Witch and then use the mana to pay the cost? I know Bog Witch is a mana ability (unlike other spellshapers).
I'd say this is above the curve, and zombies are a very supported creature type. More so than black's other characteristic creature type, vampires.
The thing that bothers me is the lifegain. Mostly it's a color pie thing. Black gets lifegain, but it's usually tied to lifeloss or damage. Or if not that then killing opponents' creatures or your own, though you can also gain life when a creature dies, regardless of how it died; you can also literally bet your life, but that's a pretty niche case. But pure lifegain is the sole province of white and green.
(Also, why is Gatherer so damned slow?)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Oooo, a new card! I like the focus on versatility they have these days, but sorcery speed exile 1 card from a graveyard is so rarely a worthwhile option, this is just a terrible Thoughtseize. I like the name though.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
The name is super weird imo. Card names should not sound like something a troll would say. Not that I really care that much, it's just a little strange.
Also card is extremely not playable in commander.
I boarded one in against my draft opponent on Friday, though. He had a trostani discordant and doom whisperer...Game 1 I hit him with thought erasure and he had trostani and golgari findbroker with neither white mana or a second green. I ripped the trostani, figuring he'd need to get both white and green before it would be a problem...he then topdecked selesnya guildgate. I got wrecked. So, annoyed, I boarded into this to try to take out his 2 big bombs permanently.
Next game, with never happened boarded in, he went hellbent fairly quickly, but didn't have white mana. I topdecked never happened. He draws a card and doesn't play it. Thinking it's most likely an extra land, I discard the never happened to jump start a chemister's insight. Yep, it was trostani, and next turn he topdecked a plains to play it. Beat him anyway, though, since I was going off with card advantage and surveil shenanigans. Chemister's insight is awesome.
Never happened should have never happened. It's a bad discard effect with a bad gy hate effect optional.
The discard effect is properly valued at 1B. Thoughtsieze is B and 2 life, essentially equivalent to phyrexian Mana, and is very strong because 2 life is not in practice equivalent to one Mana (hence phyrexian Mana being op), and because this effect is often more powerful turn 1 than 2. Yes, it exiles, but that would be fine at 2 mana. We usually see it at 3 Mana with upside. Sorcery speed single card gy hate is not a one Mana effect, especially when it's an option rather than an addition. With the exile AND the gy hate being in addition to the discard, I'd be more onboard with this as a marginal card that has a place in a limited format with a gy matters subtheme, but as it is it needs more. Usually, this kind of card would have a hoop to jump through to get 2 cards, cycling, surviel/scry, the choice between being targeted for one or mind rot, a cantrip, etc. The gy and exile combine for half a Mana imo, with the targeted discard at 1B. Useless in commander, but bad overall. Surviel 1 would have made this interesting and even fringe playable in limited, though Dimir doesn't need more depth.
From under the floorboards is a bad zombie card, but a sweet discard/madness card.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Graveyard hate needs to have instant speed in some form to be playable at all. Hand disruption doesn't have to be able to take lands, but at three mana it should be able to.
Trying to put gravehate and discard on the same card made it a sorcery. I can't help but think of it as "like Thoughtseize but paying 2 instead of 2 life". In other words, the image of GILBIC.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Maybe if this hit all copies of the chosen card in hand/deck/graveyard it'd be more impressive. Still not great for EDH, but at least the name would be more accurate.
Graveyard hate needs to have instant speed in some form to be playable at all. Hand disruption doesn't have to be able to take lands, but at three mana it should be able to.
Yea, I’d consider this somewhat playable if it were instant speed. Things I’d want to exile from gys are generally things I’d wanna remove in response to something. There’s nothing worse than Having something disappear as you target it in the gy.
I don't know how far the window of playability has shifted with the rise of commanders designed for the format, but there was a time where this stood proudly on the line of "it takes work to make this good or interesting, who wants a fun challenge?"
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I'd put it in the same place, though the first ability is kinda made moot by Levitation or Akroma's Memorial (which would coincidentally protect your creatures from the second ability even if it didn't grant flying) or Eldrazi Monument (though that would need a supply of tokens).
Keep in mind, they also can't kill anything you control with prowess (or prowess-like abilities like Quirion Dryad and Forgotten Ancient, if they're in the 99, such as in "obligatory obvious example", a Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder deck) on their own, so there's that as an option too.
I also like that they cost 4 mana.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't know how far the window of playability has shifted with the rise of commanders designed for the format, but there was a time where this stood proudly on the line of "it takes work to make this good or interesting, who wants a fun challenge?"
I think the issue with this kind of commander these days is how many commanders get printed that take very little work to make extremely powerful, and just get stupid if you actually build the deck well. These guys kinda cap out at "decent-ish".
Best use I can figure would be buyback on stuff like haze of rage and shattering pulse, with cost reducers so you can keep the board nice and clear turn after turn. Unfortunately blue gets all the good cheap cantrips, which just does a sort of bad levitation impression as mentioned. If they were green they could set up some sweet plummets, but nah. Casting lots of red spells is where it's at, but that's kind of difficult to go beyond, like, 3 in a turn usually. And if you really want to do the buyback deck, I think mizzix of the izmagnus is probably what you want.
I remember when T&L was a popular spellslinger commander, but I haven't seen a T&L deck in a long time.
I run them in my Kynaios and Tiro Enrage deck, as an enrage enabler. T&L is one of 5 blue cards in my deck (6 counting my commander), so the first ability is basically irrelevant, but they're in the deck for the second ability anyway.
It's pretty weird that they were introduced as guild champions of the Izzet way back in the original Rav Block, and have never received even a flavor text nod since then. Not a particularly impressive card; If I had to make one small change to it to make it more interesting, I'd modify the first ability to say "gains or loses flying until end of turn." Still, could be a nice commander if you wanted to play Charisma.
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(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Beast Within, Scour from Existence, and Spine of Ish Sah all exist?
But yes, this is basically blue's version of Vindicate. That flexibility is always better. Especially since a lot of activated abilities are game-ending. Plus, your opponent might play something like Cavern of Souls and this allows you to still counter enter triggers.
On phasing:
Casting this without madness is pretty low powered. Casting it with Madness requires you to be discarding it with a lot of mana up to make it worthwhile, and hopefully at someone's end step to guarantee a swing. I'd say this card is a waste of effort, but I think Chromium, the Mutable may have just given us our first black commander with free instant discard outlet that would like to hold up mana all the time.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
The madness option is what we're going for here, obviously. (Though correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 3mm the normal cost for three 2/2 tokens? Comparisons are either to "one, with a small hoop for three" for 3G, three 1/1s for 3W or 3GG with convoke or 1RR, three 2/2s on a modal spell for 4GW, and three for 4BB with cycling which also gives you a zombie token.) Someone will have to tell me, can I discard this to Bog Witch and then use the mana to pay the cost? I know Bog Witch is a mana ability (unlike other spellshapers).
I'd say this is above the curve, and zombies are a very supported creature type. More so than black's other characteristic creature type, vampires.
The thing that bothers me is the lifegain. Mostly it's a color pie thing. Black gets lifegain, but it's usually tied to life loss or damage. Or if not that then killing opponents' creatures or your own, though you can also gain life when a creature dies, regardless of how it died; you can also literally bet your life, but that's a pretty niche case. But pure lifegain is the sole province of white and green.
(Also, why is Gatherer so damned slow?)
On phasing:
Oooo, a new card! I like the focus on versatility they have these days, but sorcery speed exile 1 card from a graveyard is so rarely a worthwhile option, this is just a terrible Thoughtseize. I like the name though.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Also card is extremely not playable in commander.
I boarded one in against my draft opponent on Friday, though. He had a trostani discordant and doom whisperer...Game 1 I hit him with thought erasure and he had trostani and golgari findbroker with neither white mana or a second green. I ripped the trostani, figuring he'd need to get both white and green before it would be a problem...he then topdecked selesnya guildgate. I got wrecked. So, annoyed, I boarded into this to try to take out his 2 big bombs permanently.
Next game, with never happened boarded in, he went hellbent fairly quickly, but didn't have white mana. I topdecked never happened. He draws a card and doesn't play it. Thinking it's most likely an extra land, I discard the never happened to jump start a chemister's insight. Yep, it was trostani, and next turn he topdecked a plains to play it. Beat him anyway, though, since I was going off with card advantage and surveil shenanigans. Chemister's insight is awesome.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The discard effect is properly valued at 1B. Thoughtsieze is B and 2 life, essentially equivalent to phyrexian Mana, and is very strong because 2 life is not in practice equivalent to one Mana (hence phyrexian Mana being op), and because this effect is often more powerful turn 1 than 2. Yes, it exiles, but that would be fine at 2 mana. We usually see it at 3 Mana with upside. Sorcery speed single card gy hate is not a one Mana effect, especially when it's an option rather than an addition. With the exile AND the gy hate being in addition to the discard, I'd be more onboard with this as a marginal card that has a place in a limited format with a gy matters subtheme, but as it is it needs more. Usually, this kind of card would have a hoop to jump through to get 2 cards, cycling, surviel/scry, the choice between being targeted for one or mind rot, a cantrip, etc. The gy and exile combine for half a Mana imo, with the targeted discard at 1B. Useless in commander, but bad overall. Surviel 1 would have made this interesting and even fringe playable in limited, though Dimir doesn't need more depth.
From under the floorboards is a bad zombie card, but a sweet discard/madness card.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
On phasing:
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Yea, I’d consider this somewhat playable if it were instant speed. Things I’d want to exile from gys are generally things I’d wanna remove in response to something. There’s nothing worse than Having something disappear as you target it in the gy.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I don't know how far the window of playability has shifted with the rise of commanders designed for the format, but there was a time where this stood proudly on the line of "it takes work to make this good or interesting, who wants a fun challenge?"
Keep in mind, they also can't kill anything you control with prowess (or prowess-like abilities like Quirion Dryad and Forgotten Ancient, if they're in the 99, such as in "obligatory obvious example", a Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder deck) on their own, so there's that as an option too.
I also like that they cost 4 mana.
On phasing:
Best use I can figure would be buyback on stuff like haze of rage and shattering pulse, with cost reducers so you can keep the board nice and clear turn after turn. Unfortunately blue gets all the good cheap cantrips, which just does a sort of bad levitation impression as mentioned. If they were green they could set up some sweet plummets, but nah. Casting lots of red spells is where it's at, but that's kind of difficult to go beyond, like, 3 in a turn usually. And if you really want to do the buyback deck, I think mizzix of the izmagnus is probably what you want.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I run them in my Kynaios and Tiro Enrage deck, as an enrage enabler. T&L is one of 5 blue cards in my deck (6 counting my commander), so the first ability is basically irrelevant, but they're in the deck for the second ability anyway.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)