That's why I like the torch, it comes out turn 4 when people are still trying to get things up and running. Admittedly I run a controll deck so I have a chance at defending her to her ultimate, especially with the boost in mana she brings. And her up powers are so flexible.
I admit I'm not as familiar with EDH as you guys, but I'll wager that torch is better in edh than ablaze and flamecaller is in preconstructed.
I dunno - some cards you just love out of emotion rather perhaps logic and for me the Torch is one of them
Chandra, Torch of Defiance is an excellent walker in constructed formats, tis true, but in EDH she isn't much better than a sisay's ring. If you get her ultimate off, of course it's excellent, but I think that the 6 mana chandra's already listed have way more impact in an edh game.
The versatility makes her better tho.
Flamecaller's pretty cool because the last ability is -X, so you can use it at any time depending on how big you want it. It reminds me of playing Doubling Season and classic Chandra Nalaar to sear my opponent. But her card draw is why I say only white really doesn't benefit from Alhammarret's Archive. Black gets more card draw per life you spend (and gains more life to spend on card draw, though Bob and Necro don't interact with the Archive). Blue and red really benefit because looting, and to a lesser extent so does green, but any card draw (as long as you're actually drawing the card, not "putting it in your hand") benefits.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
That's actually a win condition I should go buy and make a deck for. I'm no green player, but every green deck I've ever loved draws whole libraries casually, and drawing the whole library + Dosan the Falling Leaf + this probably just murders someone.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Could totally be a blowout. Obvious easy combo with Walking Ballista, but there's plenty of ways to get this into stupid territory given mono green's proclivity for 'go big or go home' as a general ethos. I drew 27 in one turn with Regal Force less than 48 hours ago, for example.
Card draw, removal, win condition. The 5-6 mana planewalker formula, except they mixed up the order on this one.
I missed this one, but I can't resist but to comment.
Honestly, this is my favourite Chandra ever, even Torch of Defiance considered. Minor Board wipe, dish out damage, card draw in red. I could not ask for more.
Bolster...doesn't target. Did not realize that. Fun for Multani (either one but better for 1.0 because of no trample). I'll have to try it out!
The problem is that it doesn't target, so chances are it won't hit Multani with the bolster effect most of the time.
If Multani's your only creature...Yeah, this card is not going in any go-wide decks, except maybe Ghave. I just thought to myself "How many saproling tribal cards would I need to make this hit Rith?" I mean, besides Coat of Arms. (And even then...)
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
A few years back when i returned to MTG and began playing EDH i wanted one of these for every single deck, just to copy juicy lands...
As of today i am completely underwhelmed. Dark Depths interactions are boring af, i dislike taplands, it's a lot less versatile than Thespian's Stage and 8,00€ for it is an utter joke.
At least in my meta problematic lands are dealt with ASAP, chances of this (or its preferable target) sticking around for a turn are minimal. I'd play Thespian's Stage over it and i wasn't tempted to run that in a while.
If i ever build a durdly Maze's End deck, i'd propably include it just to get there quicker one way or the other.
I guess it appeals to somewhat different players than myself.
Sweet, a card I've actually been thinking about recently.
I do like thespian's stage a lot more, but this seems like it's probably better than people give it credit for, simply because in many decks this side of cEDH an etbt fixer isn't that bad as long as you don't have more than a couple, and the potential upside of copying a powerful utility land is pretty high. Compare to, for instance, a triland. The triland is slightly better early in most cases (obviously t1 it is) but late this could actually be a very solid draw while the triland could easily be worthless. Also, this can get around b2b and blood moon, which is sweet.
But then there are a lot of great utility lands, so it is hard to whittle it down.
Back in 2012, this thing was the hottest act ever. Every commander deck wanted it. Now in 2019 I find myself staring at it in my stack and trying to force justifications on myself for playing it. This, by definition, does not a good card make. Time has really not been kind to it I suppose.
It's easy to see why Vesuva and Thespians' Stage will be eternally talked about together. However, to me during the deck building process, they are different cards.
Of course, Thespians' Stage is "better" and people easily point that out. Thespians' Stage is an utility land. In an already stable performing mana base, there's little downside in a come-into-play untapped land (and there's value in producing colorless these days) vs. a citp-tapped land. Vesuva isn't a utility land per se but the second copy of a land that's vital to your deck (e.g. another Valakut in a landfall deck with red or Cabal Coffers in the big mana mono-black decks).
Since Vesuva can into play as the copy of the land, it can do a few different things (e.g. Bojuka Bog). But having it in your 99 and hoping to copy opponents' lands is just something not worth ever doing. As time has past, I believe more people have come to realize that as well and it has lost its luster in that sense.
In my lands.dec, it's just as good as it has always been because its there to copy my own lands.
Back in 2012, this thing was the hottest act ever. Every commander deck wanted it. Now in 2019 I find myself staring at it in my stack and trying to force justifications on myself for playing it. This, by definition, does not a good card make. Time has really not been kind to it I suppose.
Before Primeval Titan was banned, you could grab this and what it was supposed to imitate at the same time and not even worry that it was a tapland, since every land PT grabbed was a tapland. Today? It's really hard to justify. Do I have enough mana for two activations of a utility land? And if I'm in green or blue, just untapping the land is generally better for that. For big mana lands, aren't they often legendary? That really only leaves a few like Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale worth copying. (And of course, Valakut has lost value of its own with Prime Time's departure.) I guess you also have Inkmoth Nexus?
Beyond that, Thespian's Stage is better except for spell lands, which mostly means Bojuka Bog. And I guess vivid lands.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Not to mention, and most importantly, the nonlegendary flip lands from ixilan block. Copying any of them (minus the treasure one) is insane value for a land whose only real downside is etbt. There's only 5, but still, they're really nuts to get a free copy of.
The main thing, I think, is just the low downside. Lots of people on a budget play etbt lands just for fixing. Vesuva does that, except sometimes it can have a huge impact late-game instead of being a dead draw. The cost is probably enough to drive off the casual market, though, so the main people using it are looking to abuse something specific in their deck.
I’m currently running both Vesuva and Thespian’s Stage in Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, which runs both Cabal lands, Nykthos, and Crypt of Agadeem as part of its big mana secondary strategy. To date, they haven’t actually copied any of said cards. I copied a swamp once.
I’m currently running both Vesuva and Thespian’s Stage in Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, which runs both Cabal lands, Nykthos, and Crypt of Agadeem as part of its big mana secondary strategy. To date, they haven’t actually copied any of said cards. I copied a swamp once.
Worth noting, Nykthos is legendary so you probably don't want to copy that.
Pretty much always has a target, and if you're playing this, odds are you have several goodies in your own deck worth doubling for a turn.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
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I admit I'm not as familiar with EDH as you guys, but I'll wager that torch is better in edh than ablaze and flamecaller is in preconstructed.
I dunno - some cards you just love out of emotion rather perhaps logic and for me the Torch is one of them
The versatility makes her better tho.
Flamecaller's pretty cool because the last ability is -X, so you can use it at any time depending on how big you want it. It reminds me of playing Doubling Season and classic Chandra Nalaar to sear my opponent. But her card draw is why I say only white really doesn't benefit from Alhammarret's Archive. Black gets more card draw per life you spend (and gains more life to spend on card draw, though Bob and Necro don't interact with the Archive). Blue and red really benefit because looting, and to a lesser extent so does green, but any card draw (as long as you're actually drawing the card, not "putting it in your hand") benefits.
On phasing:
That's actually a win condition I should go buy and make a deck for. I'm no green player, but every green deck I've ever loved draws whole libraries casually, and drawing the whole library + Dosan the Falling Leaf + this probably just murders someone.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Honestly, this is my favourite Chandra ever, even Torch of Defiance considered. Minor Board wipe, dish out damage, card draw in red. I could not ask for more.
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(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
The problem is that it doesn't target, so chances are it won't hit Multani with the bolster effect most of the time.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Bolster is not ideal most of the time.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
If Multani's your only creature...Yeah, this card is not going in any go-wide decks, except maybe Ghave. I just thought to myself "How many saproling tribal cards would I need to make this hit Rith?" I mean, besides Coat of Arms. (And even then...)
I don't know who the trample's for. Better trample until EOT cards include Overrun and especially Overwhelming Stampede. (I'm actually surprised so many players play Overwhelming Stampede over Overrun. You usually get a better bonus, and it's easier to pay 3GG than 2GGG. Yeah, it depends on your board state, but you're not playing either with an empty board.) Repeatable trample until EOT includes Stampede Driver and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. Trample to all your creatures would include Brawn, Nylea, God of the Hunt, Aggressive Mammoth, and possibly Thunderfoot Baloth. If you want it just for creatures with +1/+1 counters (as if you can save a bit over Brawn), there's Bramblewood Paragon, Tuskguard Captain, Crowned Ceratok, and Trollbred Guardian. Finally, you can just say "Screw it, I only have to do 10 to you." with Triumph of the Hordes.
On phasing:
Where?
As of today i am completely underwhelmed. Dark Depths interactions are boring af, i dislike taplands, it's a lot less versatile than Thespian's Stage and 8,00€ for it is an utter joke.
At least in my meta problematic lands are dealt with ASAP, chances of this (or its preferable target) sticking around for a turn are minimal. I'd play Thespian's Stage over it and i wasn't tempted to run that in a while.
If i ever build a durdly Maze's End deck, i'd propably include it just to get there quicker one way or the other.
I guess it appeals to somewhat different players than myself.
I do like thespian's stage a lot more, but this seems like it's probably better than people give it credit for, simply because in many decks this side of cEDH an etbt fixer isn't that bad as long as you don't have more than a couple, and the potential upside of copying a powerful utility land is pretty high. Compare to, for instance, a triland. The triland is slightly better early in most cases (obviously t1 it is) but late this could actually be a very solid draw while the triland could easily be worthless. Also, this can get around b2b and blood moon, which is sweet.
But then there are a lot of great utility lands, so it is hard to whittle it down.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Back in 2012, this thing was the hottest act ever. Every commander deck wanted it. Now in 2019 I find myself staring at it in my stack and trying to force justifications on myself for playing it. This, by definition, does not a good card make. Time has really not been kind to it I suppose.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Of course, Thespians' Stage is "better" and people easily point that out. Thespians' Stage is an utility land. In an already stable performing mana base, there's little downside in a come-into-play untapped land (and there's value in producing colorless these days) vs. a citp-tapped land. Vesuva isn't a utility land per se but the second copy of a land that's vital to your deck (e.g. another Valakut in a landfall deck with red or Cabal Coffers in the big mana mono-black decks).
Since Vesuva can into play as the copy of the land, it can do a few different things (e.g. Bojuka Bog). But having it in your 99 and hoping to copy opponents' lands is just something not worth ever doing. As time has past, I believe more people have come to realize that as well and it has lost its luster in that sense.
In my lands.dec, it's just as good as it has always been because its there to copy my own lands.
Before Primeval Titan was banned, you could grab this and what it was supposed to imitate at the same time and not even worry that it was a tapland, since every land PT grabbed was a tapland. Today? It's really hard to justify. Do I have enough mana for two activations of a utility land? And if I'm in green or blue, just untapping the land is generally better for that. For big mana lands, aren't they often legendary? That really only leaves a few like Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale worth copying. (And of course, Valakut has lost value of its own with Prime Time's departure.) I guess you also have Inkmoth Nexus?
Beyond that, Thespian's Stage is better except for spell lands, which mostly means Bojuka Bog. And I guess vivid lands.
On phasing:
(man, vivids really hit all my most hated elements of lands - etbt, fixing only, keeping track of counters...they're just the worst)
I think people are underestimating the number of utility lands worth copying in the right scenario. Arch of orazca and mystifying maze if you have enough mana to support them, cavern of souls if you're playing tribal, strip mine et al, blighted cataract/memorial to genius, forge of heroes, oran-rief, the vastwood, path of ancestry, scavenger grounds, of course cabal coffers and cabal stronghold, unholy grotto, westvale abbey, maze of ith...
Not to mention, and most importantly, the nonlegendary flip lands from ixilan block. Copying any of them (minus the treasure one) is insane value for a land whose only real downside is etbt. There's only 5, but still, they're really nuts to get a free copy of.
The main thing, I think, is just the low downside. Lots of people on a budget play etbt lands just for fixing. Vesuva does that, except sometimes it can have a huge impact late-game instead of being a dead draw. The cost is probably enough to drive off the casual market, though, so the main people using it are looking to abuse something specific in their deck.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Tabernacle is legendary too. Not that most commander players would even have one.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Back in the days of old legend rules and Prime Times, this was quietly one of the best cards in the format.
Pretty much always has a target, and if you're playing this, odds are you have several goodies in your own deck worth doubling for a turn.