I dunno...5 is a lot for ONE R. I'm sure it helps building your storm count, or other straight burn spells, but that seems too lopsided to me. Ran it in Niv wheel, wasn't impressed. Ran it in mono-red burn, wasn't able to see it work enough to justify its slot.
You don't pay the 5 mana for the mana, you pay it for an extra spell each turn for one mana less. But it's fair that you didn't get it to fit.
I am not sure I would play that card with something like Primal Amulet now in the mix.
It works better with lower a instant/sorcery count. The list I'm running it in only has 17 instants/sorceries. I'm still not sure if I like Goggles there but it definitely couldn't support Amulet flipping on a regular basis.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I love Pyromancer's Goggles. I was originally using Mirari to copy spells in a couple decks, and this blows Mirari out of the water; same mana cost, but Goggles makes a mana versus Mirari costing three mana to use... Mirari would only be better if you could copy more than one spell a turn, and at that cost that rarely happens.
And regarding Primal Amulet, I don't think that it is necessarily better than Goggles. Amulet costing one less and saving mana on each spell is obviously better than only saving mana on one spell per turn with Goggles, but working right away versus after four spells is a big deal. And once Amulet flips into Primal Wellspring it can still only copy one spell per turn. This also assumes no untapping shenanigans, but we all know that there are more ways to untap an artifact to use Goggles over and over (Paradox Engine, Voltaic Key, Unwinding Clock, etc.) versus untapping a land.
Both are good cards, but I would choose Goggles over Amulet if I was forced to choose (although to be fair, in my three spellslinger decks with red (Gisela, RG Wrot, and Niv-Mizzet) I'm running both)
True, but that's like saying something is good with Time Vault (which Paradox Engine is, but that's beside the point).
On the comparison with Primal Amulet, I honestly like the Amulet more, since any color can use it, but it only copies when it flips. Which is fine with me, since then it copies. But if I'm playing a red deck with a huge spellslinger theme, I'm probably running both.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Manifest was a cool, flavourful mechanic that perfectly suited the story arc of the time.
The only way I can see this being a reliable way to trigger fight effectively is in Animar, Soul of Elements Animorph variants. That's far from a bad place for it to be, simply because Animar is strong as all hell. I just can't really see it being great anywhere else.
Temur War Shaman would also work well enough in Ezuri, Claw of Progress Manifest/Morph decks, which is probably the only other place I have seen that theme work.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't know what's shadowy about this, but it's certainly vicious. I have this in my Mathas, Fiend Seeker deck, and feel so smart there where I can wipe the board and have everyone draw from the bounty counters before this kills them.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
A very solid wincon in Thromok the Insatiable, for all the same reasons it is in Prossh - though at least Thromok has to first have the tokens to devour as he doesn't come with them
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
I remember when this was the go to kill set up in the early days, back around Lorwyn-Shards era standard. Haven't seen it in years but well, it has been a decade or so.
It was my finisher in my Mardu removal tribal deck I had back in the day. Well, I'd say it was my finisher except it never ever did anything thanks to a combination of its mana cost and people holding onto their answers because my very existence made it so they didn't need to use them on other people's things...Yeah I wasn't the best deck designer back then.
I still love this card, and though 7 cmc is a lot, as many have mentioned it will outright end the game. Pairing this with a board wipe is obviously the go to strategy, but I've seen it used to stop a player looking to go off with sacrifice triggers and it can be a political tool to boot - "if you'll board wipe on your turn, I'll use the triggers to kill X player and save you".
Vicious Shadows also often gives a bad case of "RTFC", I've sat at many tables where it was allowed to resolve because the other players didn't read it clearly or severely misjudged what it was capable of doing.
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You don't pay the 5 mana for the mana, you pay it for an extra spell each turn for one mana less. But it's fair that you didn't get it to fit.
Cards do what they say they do. "You may choose new targets for the copy."
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
And regarding Primal Amulet, I don't think that it is necessarily better than Goggles. Amulet costing one less and saving mana on each spell is obviously better than only saving mana on one spell per turn with Goggles, but working right away versus after four spells is a big deal. And once Amulet flips into Primal Wellspring it can still only copy one spell per turn. This also assumes no untapping shenanigans, but we all know that there are more ways to untap an artifact to use Goggles over and over (Paradox Engine, Voltaic Key, Unwinding Clock, etc.) versus untapping a land.
Both are good cards, but I would choose Goggles over Amulet if I was forced to choose (although to be fair, in my three spellslinger decks with red (Gisela, RG Wrot, and Niv-Mizzet) I'm running both)
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
like Paradox Engine?
True, but that's like saying something is good with Time Vault (which Paradox Engine is, but that's beside the point).
On the comparison with Primal Amulet, I honestly like the Amulet more, since any color can use it, but it only copies when it flips. Which is fine with me, since then it copies. But if I'm playing a red deck with a huge spellslinger theme, I'm probably running both.
On phasing:
Instant-speed repeatable fight sounds nifty, but I'm not certain there exists an engine to make it work that way.
The only way I can see this being a reliable way to trigger fight effectively is in Animar, Soul of Elements Animorph variants. That's far from a bad place for it to be, simply because Animar is strong as all hell. I just can't really see it being great anywhere else.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
sounds like a pretty bad synergy though, gotta say.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
On phasing:
I don't know what's shadowy about this, but it's certainly vicious. I have this in my Mathas, Fiend Seeker deck, and feel so smart there where I can wipe the board and have everyone draw from the bounty counters before this kills them.
On phasing:
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I think this could be fair at a lower mana cost
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
One of MANY Prossh weapons, and a cruel one. Prossh is as iconic in Jund flavors as Atraxa in her field.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I remember when this was the go to kill set up in the early days, back around Lorwyn-Shards era standard. Haven't seen it in years but well, it has been a decade or so.
Fond memories. Respect the shadows.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Vicious Shadows also often gives a bad case of "RTFC", I've sat at many tables where it was allowed to resolve because the other players didn't read it clearly or severely misjudged what it was capable of doing.