I'm sure there are threads for this already, but I wanted to specifically look at land options for my The Ur-Dragon commander deck. Obviously a 5 color mana base is tricky, and the original mana base that came in the deck was sketchy at best.
I want to hear everyone's best suggestions for budget land choices in EDH, considering as most people don't have money to spend on the Fetches & Duals that they dream of.
Right now, my mana base is fairly solid, but I'm looking to replace the 10 Tri-Lands Seaside Citadel & Friends for the Dragonskull Summit Ally land cycle and the Cinder Glade land cycle. My questions about these changes are:
- Are Tri-Lands worth keeping in the 5 color deck? Access to 3 types of mana is always good, but is it worth it considering they ETB tapped?
- Are both of these cycles decent enough to replace them? Access to two colors of mana that possibly ETB untapped is always nice, but in a 5 color deck is it better to run the Tri-Lands?
For Tri-lands, look at Lair lands first. Much better than normal Tri-lands since they don't have the annoying enter the field tapped and you can return a tapped land to your hand.
I'm trying not to spend more than 5ish dollars on each land to replace the Tri Land cycle, which is why I went with the cycles I proposed. Plus they are fairly easy to obtain.
In my experience budget 4 or 5 color decks are easy to build, if you are a ramp deck.
A dragon deck is probably RG splashing 3 colors to cast the commander and a few utility cards. Let the mana base reflect this.
Rampant Growth, Nature Lore and friends are useful for fixing, so you need much green mana. Forests like Murmuring Bosk and Sheltered Thicket can be searched. If you are running spoils of victory and farseek, other basic land types might be interesting. Another option are the etb tapped fetchlands like Grasslands.
Personally, I like try lands and temples, if they produce my most important colors.
There are also a lot of weird budget lands:
Odyssey Filters(Shadowblood Ridge ,etc.) River of Tears, etc.
I would try to get many lands that enter untapped and avoid any hefty drawbacks like the lairs that bounce your stuff.
Look at your mana requirements and don't be greedy.
I think you underestimate utility lands. Despite making colorless mana, they have abilities that can literally save you the game if timed right. There's been many games where someone has tried to steal or exile my creature and High Market was there to easily toss it in the graveyard so they couldn't get it. And when you're playing dragons.... everyone wants a piece of your action.
With that being said I understand your point about them being hard to use in a 5 color mana base, but I haven't had too many issues with them yet.
I do feel the best answer has already been given in putting a solid focus on green for mana fixing ramp via basics. This will help both cycles come into play untapped. Part of the answer may be putting only 6-7 of these cycles in the deck and adding more basics (2-3 forests?) as well. I think it will be solid. Especially with ramp like Nature's Lore and Skyshroud Claim you can search up Canopy Vista and Cinder Glade to fix into two additional colors.
Well it's not a land but the card amulet of vigor makes a lot of the "bad" duel and tri lands very good
It's also just one card to make bad *dual lands into Tropical Island and friends. (I used to also use Primeval Titan to search for my various taplands before searching for my original duals when it was legal, since they ETBT either way.)
I'm a fan of pain lands and to a lesser extent karoos for budgets. (Lairs are nice as karoo lands go.) This would include City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Caves of Koilos and friends. Also, you're probably going to be using a lot of "any basic land" ramp and "mana of any color" rocks/dorks and things like Chromatic Lantern and Prismatic Omen.
One thing I must recommend: Try to limit the number of cards costing at least WW, UU, BB, RR, GG, or CC. I say so because I always make sure at least half my lands are basics, just because Blood Moon and Back to Basics are common in my meta. (A Stax deck could probalby also use Primal Order to really screw over five-color decks that aren't prepared.) For instance, in my Rith, the Awakener, I can usually bring her out on turn 4 or 5, sometimes on turn 3 (if Mana Vault or Sol Ring is involved), but Titanic Ultimatum and Overrun are much, much later. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, I usually win when I play them. Having so many basics also means that Rootbound Crag and friends are more playable.
Also, think of which lands you play. When you add more colors, it becomes important to play your mana sources in proper sequence.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
For Tri-lands, look at Lair lands first. Much better than normal Tri-lands since they don't have the annoying enter the field tapped and you can return a tapped land to your hand.
While those are nice lands, they are not so good in The Ur-Dragon as they are anti-ramp. One of the key goals of the deck is to cast the big fatty and he has both a high casting cost and difficult mana requirements. Colored ramp is therefore a priority.
I have always had good luck with the Vivid lands, feels like they're definitely better than the tri-lands in my experience.
A gem I don't see people run a lot is Mirrodin's Core.
The easiest budget answer is to lean on green, 14 basics (6/2/2/2/2), 10ish gold lands, green pains, BFZ Battle lands, a few odds and ends preferably in green (murmuring bosk) plus lots of green spell land ramp. That works pretty well although you might run into double colored pip issues on curve, and double double will be mostly uncastable on curve. You want to limit the tapped lands to below 10 if possible. The stock land base is also not so bad, if you only keep the tris and the vivids but balance out the rest with good rainbows and basics, the ramp needs to be greatly improved tho.
I have tried various mid budget (T2 and below duals) and the above first probably works the best as you get pretty good fixing and good ramp. That being said, I am working on a different type of land base that uses 10x Rav Karoos, 10x Pains, 10ish Gold lands, 5 vivids and 1x of each basic or so. It is like running +10 lands and more duals than the first arrangement, also 15ish rainbow lands which helps a great deal to cast colored spells on curve. The Karoos are powerful but they have two big risks- 1) being blown up (they are already +1 CA so maybe a wash) 2) can result in a discard on turn two if there is no castable spell on T1 or T2 (this may be a feature but not in this deck).
So, the deck I am tinkering with has quite a few one drops that ramp, they are slightly suboptimal, but synergize well with the Karoos. Cards like Embodiment of Spring, Font of Fertility and Diligent Farmhand. Also running rainbow land ramp enchantments plus untappers which can be explosive, but still in playtesting phase as they are more easily wrathable than lands. I took out Exploration effects as they are not CA ramp, merely let you play cards earlier while the Big Fattie Dragon needs distance runners not sprinters.
For Tri-lands, look at Lair lands first. Much better than normal Tri-lands since they don't have the annoying enter the field tapped and you can return a tapped land to your hand.
I consider these worse because they stall your mana development. I think these only make sense if you have a very specific color-intensive play you need to make reliably on-curve early. I could see Zur running one to get him into play as early as possible since casting him is all you really have to do for him to get going. But I'd really rather never play with them.
Regarding the ETB trilands, I personally would at least consider keeping ones that produce two of your main colors + one of your uncommonly used colors and the vivid lands in your main colors. For example, if you're a 5-color deck that's mostly Jund, I'd run: BRG Tri BRW Tri BRU Tri RGW Tri RGU Tri GBW Tri GBU Tri B Vivid R Vivid G Vivid
And possibly also GUW Tri if you're using green for color fixing as well, though admittedly if you are doing that, you'd want more green sources that come into play untapped.
If you do add in the BFZ lands, fetchlands become an attractive option at that point as you upgrade the mana base. Krosan Verge is still very much worth picking up as it can grab 4 colors.
I don't mind ETB tapped lands so much as I'm generally willing to trade time for consistency. I also tend to keep my curve low, so as soon as I have my colors, I'm not typically dependent on untapped lands. Granted, I've not built a 5-color deck before and am unsure how I'd tackle that. It's possible I'd only run a few fetchable sources of a few colors, but building on a budget still makes it hard. It really depends on the deck composition IMO.
What commander are you running and what is the frequency of each color in the cards you want to play?
I would highly recommend upgrading to Shock Lands (Stomping Ground etc) one at a time. They are relatively cheap compared to other lands and you will probably get the most bang for your buck with them. If you get only one a week you'll have them all in no time. Plus, they are great for any type of deck you would want to build in the future. Shock lands, especially the green ones, make cards like Farseek and Wood Elves much better, as well as make any future fetch lands you get much more valuable.
If you consider EDH a good time and want to play many decks in the future, lands are your best investment for your $$$. In addition, they aren't going down in price any time soon, so you might as well get them sooner rather than later. In addition, if you don't like them you can always trade/sell them later, as those are high demand cards.
Two other cards I've grown fond of lately are Traverse the Outlands and Boundless Realms. They are expensive (manawise) but once you've resolved either one of them all your color problems are a thing of the past plus they also ramp you in volume. you can cast one of these and always follow it up with the Ur-Dragon. As a matter of fact, in my experience if you run enough green land ramp spells, you can go almost full basic without problems.
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If I were to pick up the Ur-Dragon deck, and Modify the landbase myself without using expensive lands, this is what I would run. I will also put in my ramp/mana fixing package.
Now, this does mean 50% of the deck is based on mana, but, you are running a 9 mana commander in a tribe of massively costed creatures. Of course, depending on what you run for creatures, you could drop Cryptolith Rite if you aren't running the smaller Dragon support creatures, or don't feel it will have enough impact. Of the cards in my list, the only one over $5 is Chromatic Lantern which is worth the price of picking up (around $10 - 15). The Farseek, Spoils of Victory and Krosan Verge have 9 Dual Land targets to get, as well as all the basics. 5 of those dual lands have a chance of coming into play untapped due to the amount of Basics in the deck. This mana base also only has 8 Lands that have to come into play tapped (10 if you include Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse), which matches the 10 Tri Lands. With 25 sources of green mana in the early game (26 if you include Cascading Cataract for later) you should be able to consistently cast these Ramp spells and fix your mana better.
Now, if you had more income, obviously Fetches and Shocks would be a better way to go, and should be your final goal for the deck. Also Prismatic Omen if worth investing in to have a second card like Chromatic Lantern. Hope this helps!
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I expect you also have Trinket Mage and Amulet of Vigor to speed things up? It seems like a fun way to craft a manabase, but also a touch slow? Got a list? I'd be curious to see if it could work with The Ur-Dragon.
I could also see tag teaming Maze and Thawing with uptappers and explore effects being a nasty combo. Could a stable manabase be such crafted?
I expect you also have Trinket Mage and Amulet of Vigor to speed things up? It seems like a fun way to craft a manabase, but also a touch slow? Got a list? I'd be curious to see if it could work with The Ur-Dragon.
I could also see tag teaming Maze and Thawing with uptappers and explore effects being a nasty combo. Could a stable manabase be such crafted?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
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I want to hear everyone's best suggestions for budget land choices in EDH, considering as most people don't have money to spend on the Fetches & Duals that they dream of.
Right now, my mana base is fairly solid, but I'm looking to replace the 10 Tri-Lands Seaside Citadel & Friends for the Dragonskull Summit Ally land cycle and the Cinder Glade land cycle. My questions about these changes are:
- Are Tri-Lands worth keeping in the 5 color deck? Access to 3 types of mana is always good, but is it worth it considering they ETB tapped?
- Are both of these cycles decent enough to replace them? Access to two colors of mana that possibly ETB untapped is always nice, but in a 5 color deck is it better to run the Tri-Lands?
I currently am running this manabase:
4 Forest
4 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Swamp
10 Tri-Lands
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I'm trying not to spend more than 5ish dollars on each land to replace the Tri Land cycle, which is why I went with the cycles I proposed. Plus they are fairly easy to obtain.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
I think you underestimate utility lands. Despite making colorless mana, they have abilities that can literally save you the game if timed right. There's been many games where someone has tried to steal or exile my creature and High Market was there to easily toss it in the graveyard so they couldn't get it. And when you're playing dragons.... everyone wants a piece of your action.
With that being said I understand your point about them being hard to use in a 5 color mana base, but I haven't had too many issues with them yet.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Everything your looking for is right here
https://scryfall.com/search?q=t:Land usd<=5.00&order=edhrec
Every single land on this list is equal or less than $5
Choose the ones that appeal to you the most.
For a hidden gem riftstone portal if that's in your graveyard you just gave you self a WG version of yawgmoths tomb.
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
It's also just one card to make bad *dual lands into Tropical Island and friends. (I used to also use Primeval Titan to search for my various taplands before searching for my original duals when it was legal, since they ETBT either way.)
I'm a fan of pain lands and to a lesser extent karoos for budgets. (Lairs are nice as karoo lands go.) This would include City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Caves of Koilos and friends. Also, you're probably going to be using a lot of "any basic land" ramp and "mana of any color" rocks/dorks and things like Chromatic Lantern and Prismatic Omen.
One thing I must recommend: Try to limit the number of cards costing at least WW, UU, BB, RR, GG, or CC. I say so because I always make sure at least half my lands are basics, just because Blood Moon and Back to Basics are common in my meta. (A Stax deck could probalby also use Primal Order to really screw over five-color decks that aren't prepared.) For instance, in my Rith, the Awakener, I can usually bring her out on turn 4 or 5, sometimes on turn 3 (if Mana Vault or Sol Ring is involved), but Titanic Ultimatum and Overrun are much, much later. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, I usually win when I play them. Having so many basics also means that Rootbound Crag and friends are more playable.
Also, think of which lands you play. When you add more colors, it becomes important to play your mana sources in proper sequence.
On phasing:
While those are nice lands, they are not so good in The Ur-Dragon as they are anti-ramp. One of the key goals of the deck is to cast the big fatty and he has both a high casting cost and difficult mana requirements. Colored ramp is therefore a priority.
A gem I don't see people run a lot is Mirrodin's Core.
I have tried various mid budget (T2 and below duals) and the above first probably works the best as you get pretty good fixing and good ramp. That being said, I am working on a different type of land base that uses 10x Rav Karoos, 10x Pains, 10ish Gold lands, 5 vivids and 1x of each basic or so. It is like running +10 lands and more duals than the first arrangement, also 15ish rainbow lands which helps a great deal to cast colored spells on curve. The Karoos are powerful but they have two big risks- 1) being blown up (they are already +1 CA so maybe a wash) 2) can result in a discard on turn two if there is no castable spell on T1 or T2 (this may be a feature but not in this deck).
So, the deck I am tinkering with has quite a few one drops that ramp, they are slightly suboptimal, but synergize well with the Karoos. Cards like Embodiment of Spring, Font of Fertility and Diligent Farmhand. Also running rainbow land ramp enchantments plus untappers which can be explosive, but still in playtesting phase as they are more easily wrathable than lands. I took out Exploration effects as they are not CA ramp, merely let you play cards earlier while the Big Fattie Dragon needs distance runners not sprinters.
Regarding the ETB trilands, I personally would at least consider keeping ones that produce two of your main colors + one of your uncommonly used colors and the vivid lands in your main colors. For example, if you're a 5-color deck that's mostly Jund, I'd run:
BRG Tri
BRW Tri
BRU Tri
RGW Tri
RGU Tri
GBW Tri
GBU Tri
B Vivid
R Vivid
G Vivid
And possibly also GUW Tri if you're using green for color fixing as well, though admittedly if you are doing that, you'd want more green sources that come into play untapped.
If you do add in the BFZ lands, fetchlands become an attractive option at that point as you upgrade the mana base. Krosan Verge is still very much worth picking up as it can grab 4 colors.
I don't mind ETB tapped lands so much as I'm generally willing to trade time for consistency. I also tend to keep my curve low, so as soon as I have my colors, I'm not typically dependent on untapped lands. Granted, I've not built a 5-color deck before and am unsure how I'd tackle that. It's possible I'd only run a few fetchable sources of a few colors, but building on a budget still makes it hard. It really depends on the deck composition IMO.
What commander are you running and what is the frequency of each color in the cards you want to play?
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If you consider EDH a good time and want to play many decks in the future, lands are your best investment for your $$$. In addition, they aren't going down in price any time soon, so you might as well get them sooner rather than later. In addition, if you don't like them you can always trade/sell them later, as those are high demand cards.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
1 Path of Ancestry
1 Opal Palace
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 City of Brass
1 Transguild Promenade
1 Rupture Spire
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Cascading Cataracts
1 Unclaimed Territory
1 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
1 Prairie Stream
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Canyon Slough
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Scattered Groves
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Krosan Verge
1 Homeward Path
6 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Spoils of Victory
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Cultivate
1 Sol Ring
1 Mind Stone
1 Thought Vessel
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Cryptolith Rite
Now, this does mean 50% of the deck is based on mana, but, you are running a 9 mana commander in a tribe of massively costed creatures. Of course, depending on what you run for creatures, you could drop Cryptolith Rite if you aren't running the smaller Dragon support creatures, or don't feel it will have enough impact. Of the cards in my list, the only one over $5 is Chromatic Lantern which is worth the price of picking up (around $10 - 15). The Farseek, Spoils of Victory and Krosan Verge have 9 Dual Land targets to get, as well as all the basics. 5 of those dual lands have a chance of coming into play untapped due to the amount of Basics in the deck. This mana base also only has 8 Lands that have to come into play tapped (10 if you include Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse), which matches the 10 Tri Lands. With 25 sources of green mana in the early game (26 if you include Cascading Cataract for later) you should be able to consistently cast these Ramp spells and fix your mana better.
Now, if you had more income, obviously Fetches and Shocks would be a better way to go, and should be your final goal for the deck. Also Prismatic Omen if worth investing in to have a second card like Chromatic Lantern. Hope this helps!
Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
Pauper - B Pestilence
Pauper - W Steel Soldiers
EDH - W Isamaru, Hound of Konda 1V1
EDH - GRB Kresh the Bloodbraided
EDH - GW Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
EDH - UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDH - RB Lyzolda, The Blood Witch
EDH - UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster (Reworking)
EDH - UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
EDH - UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif
EDH - BGR Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Pauper EDH - G Garruk's Packleader
Pauper EDH - RG Bloodbraid Elf
CUBE:
500 Peasant Cube (52% Foil) Cube Tutor Page
Surprised no one's mentioned Gemstone Mine yet even though you only get three uses out of it unless you have a way to bounce it back to hand via Trade Routes or something similar. Shard Convergence seems like a better fit over Spoils of Victory especially If you're able to "flash" them onto the battlefield with Burgeoning. Also tested Elfhame Sanctuary though it hurts more than helps. You could try utilizing Command Beacon with Fist of Suns.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I have a fondness for Maze's End, but I am rather averse to the Gates. What kind of package are you using to fetch the Maze?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I could also see tag teaming Maze and Thawing with uptappers and explore effects being a nasty combo. Could a stable manabase be such crafted?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta