This combo with Coffers is self-sustaining when you control 5 swamps (or Urborg and 2 swamps) and attains a net gain of B for each swamp you control beyond that. Each of these lands have a similar threshold when, at a certain number of its dependency, the combo becomes self-sustaining. But what you really want is any number higher than that threshold in order to produce a net gain per iteration:
Cradle — control at least 4 creatures
Nykthos — at least 6 devotion in the chosen color.
Sanctum — control at least 4 enchantments.
Crypt — at least 6 black creature cards in your graveyard.
Without these dependencies the combo doesn't happen, so they could be seen as part of the combo. So do you see this as a 3 card combo (mass-production land + Rings + Temple), or do you see it in a different way?
I suppose a similar question could even be posed of Sanguine Bond+Exquisite Blood. Usually seen as a two-card combo, but the requisite event to start the combo has to come from another source. So is it really a three-card combo?
There is difficulty of assembly and speed as two separate aspects to a combo.
For casual play, difficulty of assembly is the main limiting factor, where I would have my rules defined something like this:
Does not increase the count:
Commander, it's too easily available
Effects that have substantial redundant ways to occur, such as having a bunch of reanimation spells for a buried alive -> necrotic ooze combo, or requiring having some lands in play, or a creature to sacrifice, or some way to deal 1 damage.
Cards that are cast but come out in some deterministic way from a previous step in the combo, such as post-doomsday lines or spells cast after something like omniscience + enter the infinite
Does increase the count:
Cards and special lands that have to be on the battlefield or cast before you win that do not meet above the criteria
So food chain with prossh, skyraider of kher is a one card combo of getting food chain buried alive for necrotic ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, triskelion and then reanimating the ooze for a win would also be a one card combo of buried alive, because the reanimation is so easily redundant and necrotic ooze is guaranteed to be in the graveyard after buried alive.
But buried alive for mikaeus, the unhallowed and triskelion and then victimize to bring them both out would be a 2 card combo because victimize isn't an effect that is easy to get. The victimize additional cost is too easy to fufill to be counted as a third card.
In your examples of requiring having swamps for cabal coffers, I would not consider those swamps as part of the combo in casual games as that part is usually trivial to assemble.
This would only be for players trying to convince others whether or not a given combo is ok to include for casual games.
For competitive, the speed of the combo becomes much more important and relevant, so having a 5 swamp requirement can make a combo unplayable. Competitive combos need to evaluate the full required board state to see if they warrant inclusion, and if you are playing competitive anything goes, so it's just a matter of figuring out if the combo is good enough rather than if it is fun and acceptable for the table.
Mass production land + Rings + Temple is a 3 card combo that only works once you've attained an easily attained threshold. This is similar to Palinchron combos. Is it a 2-card combo with High Tide - yes, assuming you have enough islands.
The facility in attaining the threshold for the combo to work will affect the viability of the combo. But, if you need 4 creatures in play for Cradle to kick off this combo, I would not call it a 7 card combo, especially if you are playing a general like Prossht that makes the army of tokens by himself. Typically, you want the combo to work if the general is in play. If not, then you have to have enough creatures/enchantments/permanents/self mill to attain the threshold consistently by the time you get the 3 cards in play.
If you are playing a deck with 5 enchantments and depending on Sanctum for the win, I would call it a 7 card combo. But, if you are playing a deck with 20+ enchantments, then it's a 3 card combo that only requires that you are able to keep your enchantments in play.
Bond/blood is a 2 card combo, especially if your commander is able to kick it off - I use Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. Loss of life / life gain is usually common enough that it will happen once you deploy the two cards. It's not a 3 card combo, because the 3rd card can be a creature, a spell, an opponent controlling Phyrexian Arena, etc, - there are so many things that could be the 3rd card that it is inevitable. Since you don't need something specific, you assume you have this condition met.
If a piece needed for the combo is easily achievable without tutors/luck, then I just assume it to be part of the combo.
I have a devotion based combo that requires 5 green devotion. It is Temur Sabertooth, Karametra's Acolyte, a haste enabler (my deck has two) and 5 devotion. I say it is a 3 card combo, because it is so easy to get 5 devotion in my deck, it is taken for granted.
So maybe we would call the Rings/Deserted Temple/Cradle combo a 3 card conditional combo. You do not need a specific 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th card. Your deck is full of creatures, and any 4 will do.
yes you do get infinite mana, but, what are you pumping that mana into? If it is just floating millions of mana, i wnat the mana burn rule back for people who waste time getting infinite mana but have nothing to do with it. When i have infinite mana It is being used. (Rocket launcher, Fireball, Comet Storm, exsanguinate or eve put it into Gemstone array when I could only produce infinite mana that turn since I knew I was not getting a second chance, but did not have the winning piece in hand.
This would only be for players trying to convince others whether or not a given combo is ok to include for casual games.
Pretty close to the mark. For a long time I didn't run infinite combos at all (self-imposed limitation). Now I'm allowing them again provided they meet some criteria, such as requiring at least 4 pieces and that the deck not be dedicated to assembling them, at least not through tutoring.
But I like your points about highly redundant things such as reanimation or the commander not counting much. It's even further redundant with the Necrotic Ooze combo because you could Buried Alive for the other two pieces and cast Ooze from hand. It doesn't have to be reanimated, it just has to be on the battlefield. In that regard, I can see why you call Buried Alive a one-card combo — although I frame it differently. It's definitely a stupidly efficient assembly tool for most of the combo, but I see tutors (whether to hand or to graveyard), reanimation, sacrifice/discard outlets, etc. as just mechanisms to get the cards in the places they need to be.
If a piece needed for the combo is easily achievable without tutors/luck, then I just assume it to be part of the combo.
I have a devotion based combo that requires 5 green devotion. It is Temur Sabertooth, Karametra's Acolyte, a haste enabler (my deck has two) and 5 devotion. I say it is a 3 card combo, because it is so easy to get 5 devotion in my deck, it is taken for granted.
So maybe we would call the Rings/Deserted Temple/Cradle combo a 3 card conditional combo. You do not need a specific 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th card. Your deck is full of creatures, and any 4 will do.
Your perspective definitely reinforces the idea that easy-to-satisfy conditions are not really a core part of the combo, and that's where I was still kindof sitting the fence regarding my deckbuilding limitation.
yes you do get infinite mana, but, what are you pumping that mana into? If it is just floating millions of mana, i wnat the mana burn rule back for people who waste time getting infinite mana but have nothing to do with it. When i have infinite mana It is being used. (Rocket launcher, Fireball, Comet Storm, exsanguinate or eve put it into Gemstone array when I could only produce infinite mana that turn since I knew I was not getting a second chance, but did not have the winning piece in hand.
I appreciate this distinction between infinite mana combos (that can only produce mana) and combos that end the game. Perhaps I won't be as strict on the former as I am on game-enders. Also, Gemstone Array seems like a nice bit of tech for decks that tend to keep some lands untapped around the table pretty often.
Split second
Each players loses X life where X is the mana they have in their mana pool.
we need something like this
It sounds pretty mean (but funny), but I have my doubts it would do much. Pretty easy to play around outside of the mass-producing lands. Make it a white spell and make it do damage instead of losing life and I'll shove it in Darien.
Typically only the relevant cards/effects are counted towards the combo. Commanders (assumed to always have) and tutors (usually aren't what kill) shouldn't be counted toward the card count. Meeting specific conditions such as dealing, sacrificing a creature, or having a certain number of things are assumed to be easily achievable if such requirements are needed.
Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood + Trigger = 2 card combo. You only need to assemble two cards. The damage is assumed to be easily obtained.
Staff of Domination + Priest of Titania + 5 or more elves = 2 card combo. Only two unique cards are required. If you're building around this combo it's assumed that the other elves are easily obtained.
Two Card Combo A: Buried Alive and Ever After are the combo pieces. It's assumed that KikiConscripts could be any two card combination and therefore insignificant.
Two Card Combo B: Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts are the combo pieces. Creatures naturally go the graveyard as the game progresses. Buried Alive speeds up the inevitable. Any graveyard recursion would enable the combo. Buried Alive and Ever After are insignifigant. KikiConsripts is what wins the game.
Both ways of looking at it are valid. You make an argument that it's a 3 or 4 card combo but it would be disingenuous.
buried alive for necrotic ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, triskelion and then reanimating the ooze for a win would also be a one card combo of buried alive, because the reanimation is so easily redundant and necrotic ooze is guaranteed to be in the graveyard after buried alive.
It doesn't matter if the reanimation effect is redundant. Buried Alive by itself doesn't do anything. Two cards are still required.
But buried alive for mikaeus, the unhallowed and triskelion and then victimize to bring them both out would be a 2 card combo because victimize isn't an effect that is easy to get. The victimize additional cost is too easy to fufill to be counted as a third card.
This is also a two card combo. The combo is Buried Alive + a reanimation effect that bring back two or more cards. Additional costs shouldn't be taken into consideration. Especial creature based requirements. You always have a commander to sacrifice.
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And I don't mean to include mana required to pay any costs to start the combo.
The example I chose for this curiosity are the lands that produce an amount of mana dependent on game state: Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Serra's Sanctum, Crypt of Agadeem, etc. combined with Deserted Temple and Rings of Brighthearth.
This combo with Coffers is self-sustaining when you control 5 swamps (or Urborg and 2 swamps) and attains a net gain of B for each swamp you control beyond that. Each of these lands have a similar threshold when, at a certain number of its dependency, the combo becomes self-sustaining. But what you really want is any number higher than that threshold in order to produce a net gain per iteration:
I suppose a similar question could even be posed of Sanguine Bond+Exquisite Blood. Usually seen as a two-card combo, but the requisite event to start the combo has to come from another source. So is it really a three-card combo?
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
For casual play, difficulty of assembly is the main limiting factor, where I would have my rules defined something like this:
Does not increase the count:
Commander, it's too easily available
Effects that have substantial redundant ways to occur, such as having a bunch of reanimation spells for a buried alive -> necrotic ooze combo, or requiring having some lands in play, or a creature to sacrifice, or some way to deal 1 damage.
Cards that are cast but come out in some deterministic way from a previous step in the combo, such as post-doomsday lines or spells cast after something like omniscience + enter the infinite
Does increase the count:
Cards and special lands that have to be on the battlefield or cast before you win that do not meet above the criteria
So food chain with prossh, skyraider of kher is a one card combo of getting food chain
buried alive for necrotic ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, triskelion and then reanimating the ooze for a win would also be a one card combo of buried alive, because the reanimation is so easily redundant and necrotic ooze is guaranteed to be in the graveyard after buried alive.
But buried alive for mikaeus, the unhallowed and triskelion and then victimize to bring them both out would be a 2 card combo because victimize isn't an effect that is easy to get. The victimize additional cost is too easy to fufill to be counted as a third card.
In your examples of requiring having swamps for cabal coffers, I would not consider those swamps as part of the combo in casual games as that part is usually trivial to assemble.
This would only be for players trying to convince others whether or not a given combo is ok to include for casual games.
For competitive, the speed of the combo becomes much more important and relevant, so having a 5 swamp requirement can make a combo unplayable. Competitive combos need to evaluate the full required board state to see if they warrant inclusion, and if you are playing competitive anything goes, so it's just a matter of figuring out if the combo is good enough rather than if it is fun and acceptable for the table.
The facility in attaining the threshold for the combo to work will affect the viability of the combo. But, if you need 4 creatures in play for Cradle to kick off this combo, I would not call it a 7 card combo, especially if you are playing a general like Prossht that makes the army of tokens by himself. Typically, you want the combo to work if the general is in play. If not, then you have to have enough creatures/enchantments/permanents/self mill to attain the threshold consistently by the time you get the 3 cards in play.
If you are playing a deck with 5 enchantments and depending on Sanctum for the win, I would call it a 7 card combo. But, if you are playing a deck with 20+ enchantments, then it's a 3 card combo that only requires that you are able to keep your enchantments in play.
Bond/blood is a 2 card combo, especially if your commander is able to kick it off - I use Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath. Loss of life / life gain is usually common enough that it will happen once you deploy the two cards. It's not a 3 card combo, because the 3rd card can be a creature, a spell, an opponent controlling Phyrexian Arena, etc, - there are so many things that could be the 3rd card that it is inevitable. Since you don't need something specific, you assume you have this condition met.
If a piece needed for the combo is easily achievable without tutors/luck, then I just assume it to be part of the combo.
I have a devotion based combo that requires 5 green devotion. It is Temur Sabertooth, Karametra's Acolyte, a haste enabler (my deck has two) and 5 devotion. I say it is a 3 card combo, because it is so easy to get 5 devotion in my deck, it is taken for granted.
So maybe we would call the Rings/Deserted Temple/Cradle combo a 3 card conditional combo. You do not need a specific 4th or 5th or 6th or 7th card. Your deck is full of creatures, and any 4 will do.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Each players loses X life where X is the mana they have in their mana pool.
we need something like this
But I like your points about highly redundant things such as reanimation or the commander not counting much. It's even further redundant with the Necrotic Ooze combo because you could Buried Alive for the other two pieces and cast Ooze from hand. It doesn't have to be reanimated, it just has to be on the battlefield. In that regard, I can see why you call Buried Alive a one-card combo — although I frame it differently. It's definitely a stupidly efficient assembly tool for most of the combo, but I see tutors (whether to hand or to graveyard), reanimation, sacrifice/discard outlets, etc. as just mechanisms to get the cards in the places they need to be.
Your perspective definitely reinforces the idea that easy-to-satisfy conditions are not really a core part of the combo, and that's where I was still kindof sitting the fence regarding my deckbuilding limitation.
I appreciate this distinction between infinite mana combos (that can only produce mana) and combos that end the game. Perhaps I won't be as strict on the former as I am on game-enders. Also, Gemstone Array seems like a nice bit of tech for decks that tend to keep some lands untapped around the table pretty often.
It sounds pretty mean (but funny), but I have my doubts it would do much. Pretty easy to play around outside of the mass-producing lands. Make it a white spell and make it do damage instead of losing life and I'll shove it in Darien.
old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Examples
This is also a two card combo. The combo is Buried Alive + a reanimation effect that bring back two or more cards. Additional costs shouldn't be taken into consideration. Especial creature based requirements. You always have a commander to sacrifice.