To preface, I started learning EDH in 2010 from a mono blue combo player, and the group he introduced me to had, before I joined, gone through the arms race of infinite combos. Everyone's deck attempted to win by comboing out as fast as possible, and otherwise ran a bunch of countermagic. Thusly, the way I grew to play EDH was to make decks whose main wincons are to win fast and to win completely.
Fast forward to 2016 and I'm getting back into EDH, and to me, it feels like the vibe has changed. Gone are the primers promoting tons of combos. People on Cockatrice and XMage deliberately avoid combos and title their rooms as such. People on TappedOut and here preface their deck help posts with "I don't really want to go into combo".
Of course, this is a meta by meta, thing, but can anyone help me figure out if I'm going crazy or not? Does there seem to be a large scale shift away from combo and control EDH decks, and more into value engines thematic decks over the last 5 years?
I've attached a poll to get some numbers behind it, but I'm more interested in the answer to the question above.
I did not vote as I feel there are not enough options.
I have a few decks that do not run them...and people get mad that the game can't instantly finish. Basically, it grinds with attrition, card advantage, and value creatures.
Most people I play with don't have combos...and if they do, it won't happen until turn 7+.
I did not vote as I feel there are not enough options.
I have a few decks that do not run them...and people get mad that the game can't instantly finish. Basically, it grinds with attrition, card advantage, and value creatures.
Most people I play with don't have combos...and if they do, it won't happen until turn 7+.
I think the choices cover the main 3 attitudes, what do you think is missing?
I did not vote as I feel there are not enough options.
I have a few decks that do not run them...and people get mad that the game can't instantly finish. Basically, it grinds with attrition, card advantage, and value creatures.
Most people I play with don't have combos...and if they do, it won't happen until turn 7+.
I think the choices cover the main 3 attitudes, what do you think is missing?
The choices are black and white. Some decks have them, some don't. Some games we ask not to, some we don't and won't allow it.
Not a fan of decks dedicated to infinite combos to win quickly as possible. it warps the other decks forcing them to keep packing the deck full of awnsers cripling the deck's original stratergy or theme. This in a casual form. I don't have issues with it when its competitive.
Not a fan of decks dedicated to infinite combos to win quickly as possible. it warps the other decks forcing them to keep packing the deck full of awnsers cripling the deck's original stratergy or theme. This in a casual form. I don't have issues with it when its competitive.
Conversely, if someone runs an artifact deck in your group and you don't tweak your decks to run more artifact hate cards, aren't you being the Timmy-est of the Timmy? EDH is also about the group you play in, not putting on the blinders and going all out on your deck's theme.
“I don’t use them and have no problem with them”
All of my EDH decks are multiplayer-based and geared toward allowing for the most Magic to be played as a group. I have tons of interraction cards and removal and shy away from infinites myself. I don’t play to win, so I never run infinites and try my best to use politics to get rid of the guy who is about to go off. This eventually establishes balance in the playgroup. Combos will happen but it’s nice to see it coming ahead of time. If fun is the focus, there won’t be any salty players.
I am okay witb infinite combos under one condition. You pull it off you win. None of this (i have infinite mana but nothing to do with it. I have infinite 0/1s but they don't have haste and they cant damage you anyway.
If you go infinite. You win or you get disrupted. None of this pointless stuff.
Its always about context. At my local game store there are 3-4 players who just run the same old two card infinites with counters blah blah that go around winning all the games because everyone else isn't playing that way. I see no purpose in playing like that because no s**t easy infinites are the way to go in vintage lite. It can be fun to play as a dedicated game type where everyone is on the same page, but its absolutely toxic to more 'regular' games of EDH.
But then some friends of mine run decks which combo but have no tutors, or combo without the general, or the combos must require 3+ cards etc etc. I haven't had any problem playing against those decks.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Not a fan of decks dedicated to infinite combos to win quickly as possible. it warps the other decks forcing them to keep packing the deck full of awnsers cripling the deck's original stratergy or theme. This in a casual form. I don't have issues with it when its competitive.
Conversely, if someone runs an artifact deck in your group and you don't tweak your decks to run more artifact hate cards, aren't you being the Timmy-est of the Timmy? EDH is also about the group you play in, not putting on the blinders and going all out on your deck's theme.
Are you seriouslly comapring artifacts that are comon in almsot every deck to hyper competitive infinite combo decks?
I don't mind infintie combos as long isn't the focus of the deck like Mikaeus for commander and almost every other card is tutor to get Triskelion type of decks.
Of course depends of the group about these type, jsut saying my opinion. Sometimes i jsut want to sue silyl tribal deck and not force to jam every removal oru counter jsut not to die any giving time. I don't mind putting a couple of them on the deck but i do mind when im force to put alot where it ruins the deck's identity.
Nah, not really unless a lot of work went into that combo and was flashy as heck. No, repeatedly tutoring into your pieces does not count as work. Infinite combo has its own place in its own table with other people who want to play EDH legacy style but it has no place with the group I'm in.
Honestly? Sometimes the game goes on too long. You have four options: Counters, instant-speed removal, rattlesnakes (o hai Tormod's Crypt!) or just play Stax. (You'd be surprised how many combos are held off by Rule of Law or Leyline of the Void or something like that.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
My only problem with infinite combo lies with decks that do nothing but combo. Their whole gameplan is "Tutor, Tutor, Combo, Iwin" or "Durdle, do nothing, oops I win." Decks that at least actively interact with the board and have multiple avenues to win, of which combo may very well be one, those have my utmost respect and love. Decks that do nothing BUT combo not so much.
That said, I don't mind two-card combos as much as a lot of people do, though I do feel they're kinda anticlimatic. One-card-combos (Tooth and Nail!) I do have issue with because it tends to fall in the "I do nothing and now I suddenly win" area. If someone does things like "Chord of Calling for Avenger of Zendikar, Green Sun's Zenith for Craterhoof Behemoth" I don't have the same issue.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Combos: I think they're anticlimatic and make for an unsatisfying end to the game usually. Super fast combo decks are kind of stupid, but I prefer them to having a long, tense game suddenly end without warning. I think in a group that's either established to play combos, or if people know in advance that you're running combos, then they're a tolerable part of the game (though I personally don't like playing with or against them in really any circumstance). I won't play a deck that doesn't have appropriate answers if I understand that combos are going to be part of the game. When someone is playing some seemingly non-combo-related deck and suddenly whips out an infinite for the win, that's pretty obnoxious imo, though. I don't understand people that say "But the game is going on too long." Do you need to catch a bus? What's the difference between playing a new game and continuing this one? I play this format because of the long games, and the longer and grindier the better. If you want short games go play a 1v1 format.
High-powered decks: This is sort of a different discussion since it applies not just to fast combo, but also high-powered decks of all types. I think they limit the possibilities of the format and aren't particularly fun to play with or against. If you insist on playing high-powered decks in a group that plays at a low power level then you're being childish, and hurting the format in the process. But if your group concensus is that high-powered decks are more fun, then I don't see anything wrong with that, so long as people are on the same page.
This will be table/meta specific, and also open up (another) debate of what classifies as a combo (because casting enrage with enough mana to pump a commander to do 21 points of damage is a 2-card combo....).
I run a variance of decks, some with, and some without combos. Some of the combo decks are super casual, some are very degenerate. Some of my combo-less decks are just as casual, or just as degenerate and may even kill quicker than a combo deck can. I have two control decks that have 33% of the deck be permission/counterspells, which is likely far more annoying than having to deal with a combo deck.
Every deck is unique to the owner and the group they plan on playing it against. There is no point in gauging if/why anyone other than your own opponents care about inclusion of combos in a deck.
Now for my personal opinion; I don't really care if a deck runs a combo or not, as long as I'm aware of that potential so I don't squander resources dealing with someone else that is trying to win turn(s) away. I typically find common combo's beyond boring. If my friends can find a more interesting and unique combo then I'll likely enjoy it more.
Personally, I enjoy high-power level games and therefore I enjoy combos.
I honestly enjoy any kind of game of EDH as long as everyone's on the same page. I know what kind of game I'd choose, given the choice, but I'd also enjoy playing with out-of-the-box precons, incredibly do-nothing thematic decks (like "change the color word on cards" theme), or value-ey durdley win the game by turning things sideways decks. Given that there's good communication between players about what level they want to be playing on.
I think people tend to assume that they way they like to play EDH is the "regular" way to play EDH, or the way that most people like to play EDH. It's usually not a correct assumption. There are so many ways to enjoy that format that even the majority could only represent maybe 30% or so of players.
I have noticed an issue that arises when people soft-ban infinite combo, which is that people's definition of combo can be different. Sure, Mike + Trike is infinite. But what if I'm locking people out with Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, and Brago? There's always a window of opportunity, every turn, for players to have a mana open to interact. I'm sure most players who don't enjoy losing to combo would also not enjoy losing to that. Or say I'm controlling a player with Mindslaver every turn, but there's always the possibility I won't be able to recur it. It's not demonstrably infinite, but nine times out of ten the lock won't be broken by itself. I know this violates the "spirit" of combo ban rules, and personally I wouldn't try to manipulate the rules this way (it's easy enough to see what people are going for), but I've seen a ton of players who say "I don't like combo," play things in that environment that are just as "degenerate." Instead of playing "combo as fast as possible" it could just as easily be "MLD as fast as possible" or "Stax as fast as possible" or what have you, and then you have the grumpy debate about what is and isn't a combo.
In a format where communication matters so much, I take the attitude of "anything that's legal is fair" not because I'm super Spikey (well, not just) but because it's just a lot easier to communicate and understand.
Honestly anyone who has a problem with combos isn't running enough interaction *shrug*
Most of the decks in my various playgroups have an 'unfair' game-ending combination of cards, infinite or not. This is fine, and any good deck builds to something that ends the game, be it T&N for AvengerHoof, or MikeTrike, or a Stasis lock, or any kind of infinite mana kill. This does not mean that our games end in 10 minutes. When everyone is trying to kill everyone else as quickly as possible while stopping them from doing the same, the games tend to go long. Pure 'put stuff on the table, turn it sideways, hope no one touches my stuff long enough for me to grind out 120 damage' decks are -objectively- the most boring to play with and against. Interaction is what makes Magic fun. The tension of 2-4 players who could kill the table at any moment is exhilarating, and you get the deepest, most satisfying interactions in games like that. And when you've had enough experience with the game, you realize that nothing is unique, everything has been done before, and no card or strategy should surprise you (unless it's hilariously bad), so you can focus on building the most powerful decks and making the tightest plays. Or just -obviously- screwing around. That's good too.
Obviously it is optimal for everyone at the table to be at the same power/skill level, and a game between Craw Wurm.dec and a deck with Lab Maniac in it isn't terribly fun, but I've found that as my players are challenged by powerful strategies, learn to overcome them, and develop their play and deckbuilding skills, the decks and games slowly evolve to the point where everyone is capable of murdering the table within 5 turns if their draw is good and no one tries to stop them. But someone usually does. And then talks smack about it for the rest of the night. It's beautiful.
Not a fan of decks dedicated to infinite combos to win quickly as possible. it warps the other decks forcing them to keep packing the deck full of awnsers cripling the deck's original stratergy or theme. This in a casual form. I don't have issues with it when its competitive.
Conversely, if someone runs an artifact deck in your group and you don't tweak your decks to run more artifact hate cards, aren't you being the Timmy-est of the Timmy? EDH is also about the group you play in, not putting on the blinders and going all out on your deck's theme.
Are you seriouslly comapring artifacts that are comon in almsot every deck to hyper competitive infinite combo decks?
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. If someone comes to the table every weekend with a colorless Karn deck, you're sure as hell going to put more artifact hate into your decks. Not as a result of the standard sol ring.
Has anyone else noticed a change in group consensus over the years, or is it just me?
Not a fan of decks dedicated to infinite combos to win quickly as possible. it warps the other decks forcing them to keep packing the deck full of awnsers cripling the deck's original stratergy or theme. This in a casual form. I don't have issues with it when its competitive.
Conversely, if someone runs an artifact deck in your group and you don't tweak your decks to run more artifact hate cards, aren't you being the Timmy-est of the Timmy? EDH is also about the group you play in, not putting on the blinders and going all out on your deck's theme.
Are you seriouslly comapring artifacts that are comon in almsot every deck to hyper competitive infinite combo decks?
I don't mind infintie combos as long isn't the focus of the deck like Mikaeus for commander and almost every other card is tutor to get Triskelion type of decks.
Of course depends of the group about these type, jsut saying my opinion. Sometimes i jsut want to sue silyl tribal deck and not force to jam every removal oru counter jsut not to die any giving time. I don't mind putting a couple of them on the deck but i do mind when im force to put alot where it ruins the deck's identity.
As the meta shifts, so should your decks. A lot of people started running hexproof commanders and creatures so I tried out Wing Shards. I could add a few more, but that depends on the builder. But yes, if there are more artifacts, bring is some different type of removal. I had to add an extra piece of graveyard hate because the sheer amount of mass recursion and Living Death
Personally, I enjoy high-power level games and therefore I enjoy combos.
I honestly enjoy any kind of game of EDH as long as everyone's on the same page
yes, exactly. When I sit down, I ask for powerlevels and bring out something along those lines. Or we all pick decks depending on a power choice (jank, average, cEDH).
Honestly anyone who has a problem with combos isn't running enough interaction *shrug*
Right on point! I see so many people not run a single board wipe or piece of removal. I've even gone through people's decks to see what they have and what can be add/replaced.
Not a fan of decks dedicated to infinite combos to win quickly as possible. it warps the other decks forcing them to keep packing the deck full of awnsers cripling the deck's original stratergy or theme. This in a casual form. I don't have issues with it when its competitive.
Conversely, if someone runs an artifact deck in your group and you don't tweak your decks to run more artifact hate cards, aren't you being the Timmy-est of the Timmy? EDH is also about the group you play in, not putting on the blinders and going all out on your deck's theme.
Are you seriouslly comapring artifacts that are comon in almsot every deck to hyper competitive infinite combo decks?
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. If someone comes to the table every weekend with a colorless Karn deck, you're sure as hell going to put more artifact hate into your decks. Not as a result of the standard sol ring.
Has anyone else noticed a change in group consensus over the years, or is it just me?
It depends of the threat level. Is a Karn deck has dangerous as an infinite combo focused deck that wins on the spot? Dangerous enough that you are forced to multiple artifact hate on my deck?
It depends of the threat level. Is a Karn deck has dangerous as an infinite combo focused deck that wins on the spot? Dangerous enough that you are forced to multiple artifact hate on my deck?
Does it matter? If you regularly come to my table with a strong Karn/Daxos/Atraxa deck, I'm going to find slots that can specifically remove artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers. An EDH deck doesn't become good until it's willing to sacrifice adherence to it's theme for enough removal to make the deck viable in a variety of matchups, and one of those matchups is combo.
I voted for the first option but I have some decks that use infinite combos and others that don't. I like playing both fairer games without infinite combos and more competitive games with them.
It depends of the threat level. Is a Karn deck has dangerous as an infinite combo focused deck that wins on the spot? Dangerous enough that you are forced to multiple artifact hate on my deck?
Does it matter? If you regularly come to my table with a strong Karn/Daxos/Atraxa deck, I'm going to find slots that can specifically remove artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers. An EDH deck doesn't become good until it's willing to sacrifice adherence to it's theme for enough removal to make the deck viable in a variety of matchups, and one of those matchups is combo.
Ofcourse it matters. I doubt those decks are focused on hyper fast infintie combos wich is been discussed. Of course i will slot removal for those type of decks but as abundant as the infinite combo type of decks because you need the response at all times and for that it needs to be consistant and therefore have mutch more ways to respond.
I don't mind combos that fit the theme of the deck. By that, I mean that Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood is no big deal in a vampire deck, but it doesn't belong in my Ghoulcaller Gisa zombie/good stuff deck. Instead, you will find Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar + Other stuff to go infinite. This can be her brother's zombie, Geralf's Messenger to win on the spot, or Grave Titan, which can make infinite zombies and infinite colorless mana.
I don't pack my deck with tons of combos, but I am also not afraid to have them in my deck. going back to my example, Ashnod's Altar is the only card which doesn't do anything on it's own in my deck, though it still fits the flavor quite well.
It can use Firemind's Foresight and Intuition as basically 1 card combo, because what they get wins the game if unchecked.
I just find that deck to be fun in flavor and execution.
It uses XU & XRU counterspells as a backup plan to support itself. It just tires to durdle and dig in the early turns, get some experience counters and protect the commander, then find a win condition and go off.
My build isn't that fast, as it tends to go off when goldfishing by turn 5 or 6 when left unchecked, but really turn 7 or later with counter magic and Lightning Greaves effects to back it up/protect the commander. it doesn't have a high win %, but it is fun to play and try to dig out a win sometimes.
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I agree that a good game ended by a combo is anti-climatic, yet it is part of the game. Not every combo can be stopped easily, but most can be put in check by having instant speed targeted removal and graveyard hate. losing to an infinite combo because your deck wasn't ready for the common combos is your problem and you need to "git gud son."
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I don't mind combos that fit the theme of the deck. By that, I mean that Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood is no big deal in a vampire deck, but it doesn't belong in my Ghoulcaller Gisa zombie/good stuff deck. Instead, you will find Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar + Other stuff to go infinite. This can be her brother's zombie, Geralf's Messenger to win on the spot, or Grave Titan, which can make infinite zombies and infinite colorless mana.
I don't pack my deck with tons of combos, but I am also not afraid to have them in my deck. going back to my example, Ashnod's Altar is the only card which doesn't do anything on it's own in my deck, though it still fits the flavor quite well.
It can use Firemind's Foresight and Intuition as basically 1 card combo, because what they get wins the game if unchecked.
I just find that deck to be fun in flavor and execution.
It uses XU & XRU counterspells as a backup plan to support itself. It just tires to durdle and dig in the early turns, get some experience counters and protect the commander, then find a win condition and go off.
My build isn't that fast, as it tends to go off when goldfishing by turn 5 or 6 when left unchecked, but really turn 7 or later with counter magic and Lightning Greaves effects to back it up/protect the commander. it doesn't have a high win %, but it is fun to play and try to dig out a win sometimes.
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I agree that a good game ended by a combo is anti-climatic, yet it is part of the game. Not every combo can be stopped easily, but most can be put in check by having instant speed targeted removal and graveyard hate. losing to an infinite combo because your deck wasn't ready for the common combos is your problem and you need to "git gud son."
This is basically what my Kess, Dissident Mage deck has become. I wanted a Grixis spellslinger, and Izzet seems to be the core spellslinger identity and Black just adds a bit of utility. This has resulted in a Dualcaster Mage/Reiterate/Turnabout/Rite of Replication/Tidespout Tyrant combo deck that does nothing but protect itself from threats through control until it can go off.
This is fun for me, but entirely anti-climatic for everyone else, and as a result the deck ends up being pretty lame to play with.
Fast forward to 2016 and I'm getting back into EDH, and to me, it feels like the vibe has changed. Gone are the primers promoting tons of combos. People on Cockatrice and XMage deliberately avoid combos and title their rooms as such. People on TappedOut and here preface their deck help posts with "I don't really want to go into combo".
Of course, this is a meta by meta, thing, but can anyone help me figure out if I'm going crazy or not? Does there seem to be a large scale shift away from combo and control EDH decks, and more into value engines thematic decks over the last 5 years?
I've attached a poll to get some numbers behind it, but I'm more interested in the answer to the question above.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
I have a few decks that do not run them...and people get mad that the game can't instantly finish. Basically, it grinds with attrition, card advantage, and value creatures.
Most people I play with don't have combos...and if they do, it won't happen until turn 7+.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
I think the choices cover the main 3 attitudes, what do you think is missing?
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
The choices are black and white. Some decks have them, some don't. Some games we ask not to, some we don't and won't allow it.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Conversely, if someone runs an artifact deck in your group and you don't tweak your decks to run more artifact hate cards, aren't you being the Timmy-est of the Timmy? EDH is also about the group you play in, not putting on the blinders and going all out on your deck's theme.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
All of my EDH decks are multiplayer-based and geared toward allowing for the most Magic to be played as a group. I have tons of interraction cards and removal and shy away from infinites myself. I don’t play to win, so I never run infinites and try my best to use politics to get rid of the guy who is about to go off. This eventually establishes balance in the playgroup. Combos will happen but it’s nice to see it coming ahead of time. If fun is the focus, there won’t be any salty players.
If you go infinite. You win or you get disrupted. None of this pointless stuff.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
But then some friends of mine run decks which combo but have no tutors, or combo without the general, or the combos must require 3+ cards etc etc. I haven't had any problem playing against those decks.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Are you seriouslly comapring artifacts that are comon in almsot every deck to hyper competitive infinite combo decks?
I don't mind infintie combos as long isn't the focus of the deck like Mikaeus for commander and almost every other card is tutor to get Triskelion type of decks.
Of course depends of the group about these type, jsut saying my opinion. Sometimes i jsut want to sue silyl tribal deck and not force to jam every removal oru counter jsut not to die any giving time. I don't mind putting a couple of them on the deck but i do mind when im force to put alot where it ruins the deck's identity.
On phasing:
That said, I don't mind two-card combos as much as a lot of people do, though I do feel they're kinda anticlimatic. One-card-combos (Tooth and Nail!) I do have issue with because it tends to fall in the "I do nothing and now I suddenly win" area. If someone does things like "Chord of Calling for Avenger of Zendikar, Green Sun's Zenith for Craterhoof Behemoth" I don't have the same issue.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
High-powered decks: This is sort of a different discussion since it applies not just to fast combo, but also high-powered decks of all types. I think they limit the possibilities of the format and aren't particularly fun to play with or against. If you insist on playing high-powered decks in a group that plays at a low power level then you're being childish, and hurting the format in the process. But if your group concensus is that high-powered decks are more fun, then I don't see anything wrong with that, so long as people are on the same page.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I run a variance of decks, some with, and some without combos. Some of the combo decks are super casual, some are very degenerate. Some of my combo-less decks are just as casual, or just as degenerate and may even kill quicker than a combo deck can. I have two control decks that have 33% of the deck be permission/counterspells, which is likely far more annoying than having to deal with a combo deck.
Every deck is unique to the owner and the group they plan on playing it against. There is no point in gauging if/why anyone other than your own opponents care about inclusion of combos in a deck.
Now for my personal opinion; I don't really care if a deck runs a combo or not, as long as I'm aware of that potential so I don't squander resources dealing with someone else that is trying to win turn(s) away. I typically find common combo's beyond boring. If my friends can find a more interesting and unique combo then I'll likely enjoy it more.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I honestly enjoy any kind of game of EDH as long as everyone's on the same page. I know what kind of game I'd choose, given the choice, but I'd also enjoy playing with out-of-the-box precons, incredibly do-nothing thematic decks (like "change the color word on cards" theme), or value-ey durdley win the game by turning things sideways decks. Given that there's good communication between players about what level they want to be playing on.
I think people tend to assume that they way they like to play EDH is the "regular" way to play EDH, or the way that most people like to play EDH. It's usually not a correct assumption. There are so many ways to enjoy that format that even the majority could only represent maybe 30% or so of players.
I have noticed an issue that arises when people soft-ban infinite combo, which is that people's definition of combo can be different. Sure, Mike + Trike is infinite. But what if I'm locking people out with Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, and Brago? There's always a window of opportunity, every turn, for players to have a mana open to interact. I'm sure most players who don't enjoy losing to combo would also not enjoy losing to that. Or say I'm controlling a player with Mindslaver every turn, but there's always the possibility I won't be able to recur it. It's not demonstrably infinite, but nine times out of ten the lock won't be broken by itself. I know this violates the "spirit" of combo ban rules, and personally I wouldn't try to manipulate the rules this way (it's easy enough to see what people are going for), but I've seen a ton of players who say "I don't like combo," play things in that environment that are just as "degenerate." Instead of playing "combo as fast as possible" it could just as easily be "MLD as fast as possible" or "Stax as fast as possible" or what have you, and then you have the grumpy debate about what is and isn't a combo.
In a format where communication matters so much, I take the attitude of "anything that's legal is fair" not because I'm super Spikey (well, not just) but because it's just a lot easier to communicate and understand.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Most of the decks in my various playgroups have an 'unfair' game-ending combination of cards, infinite or not. This is fine, and any good deck builds to something that ends the game, be it T&N for AvengerHoof, or MikeTrike, or a Stasis lock, or any kind of infinite mana kill. This does not mean that our games end in 10 minutes. When everyone is trying to kill everyone else as quickly as possible while stopping them from doing the same, the games tend to go long. Pure 'put stuff on the table, turn it sideways, hope no one touches my stuff long enough for me to grind out 120 damage' decks are -objectively- the most boring to play with and against. Interaction is what makes Magic fun. The tension of 2-4 players who could kill the table at any moment is exhilarating, and you get the deepest, most satisfying interactions in games like that. And when you've had enough experience with the game, you realize that nothing is unique, everything has been done before, and no card or strategy should surprise you (unless it's hilariously bad), so you can focus on building the most powerful decks and making the tightest plays. Or just -obviously- screwing around. That's good too.
Obviously it is optimal for everyone at the table to be at the same power/skill level, and a game between Craw Wurm.dec and a deck with Lab Maniac in it isn't terribly fun, but I've found that as my players are challenged by powerful strategies, learn to overcome them, and develop their play and deckbuilding skills, the decks and games slowly evolve to the point where everyone is capable of murdering the table within 5 turns if their draw is good and no one tries to stop them. But someone usually does. And then talks smack about it for the rest of the night. It's beautiful.
I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. If someone comes to the table every weekend with a colorless Karn deck, you're sure as hell going to put more artifact hate into your decks. Not as a result of the standard sol ring.
Has anyone else noticed a change in group consensus over the years, or is it just me?
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
As the meta shifts, so should your decks. A lot of people started running hexproof commanders and creatures so I tried out Wing Shards. I could add a few more, but that depends on the builder. But yes, if there are more artifacts, bring is some different type of removal. I had to add an extra piece of graveyard hate because the sheer amount of mass recursion and Living Death
yes, exactly. When I sit down, I ask for powerlevels and bring out something along those lines. Or we all pick decks depending on a power choice (jank, average, cEDH).
Right on point! I see so many people not run a single board wipe or piece of removal. I've even gone through people's decks to see what they have and what can be add/replaced.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
It depends of the threat level. Is a Karn deck has dangerous as an infinite combo focused deck that wins on the spot? Dangerous enough that you are forced to multiple artifact hate on my deck?
Does it matter? If you regularly come to my table with a strong Karn/Daxos/Atraxa deck, I'm going to find slots that can specifically remove artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers. An EDH deck doesn't become good until it's willing to sacrifice adherence to it's theme for enough removal to make the deck viable in a variety of matchups, and one of those matchups is combo.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
Ofcourse it matters. I doubt those decks are focused on hyper fast infintie combos wich is been discussed. Of course i will slot removal for those type of decks but as abundant as the infinite combo type of decks because you need the response at all times and for that it needs to be consistant and therefore have mutch more ways to respond.
I don't pack my deck with tons of combos, but I am also not afraid to have them in my deck. going back to my example, Ashnod's Altar is the only card which doesn't do anything on it's own in my deck, though it still fits the flavor quite well.
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Regarding "tutor tutor tutor I win" combos, I kind of have something like that with Mizzix of the Izmagnus. It is not storm, but rather a spell slinger combo deck that can go infinite with Reiterate + a red ritual, or with Mystic Retrieval + Runic Repetition + time magic. It can also just win with raw value. It has Guttersnipe and Talrand, Sky Summoner for raw value.
It can use Firemind's Foresight and Intuition as basically 1 card combo, because what they get wins the game if unchecked.
I just find that deck to be fun in flavor and execution.
It uses XU & XRU counterspells as a backup plan to support itself. It just tires to durdle and dig in the early turns, get some experience counters and protect the commander, then find a win condition and go off.
My build isn't that fast, as it tends to go off when goldfishing by turn 5 or 6 when left unchecked, but really turn 7 or later with counter magic and Lightning Greaves effects to back it up/protect the commander. it doesn't have a high win %, but it is fun to play and try to dig out a win sometimes.
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I agree that a good game ended by a combo is anti-climatic, yet it is part of the game. Not every combo can be stopped easily, but most can be put in check by having instant speed targeted removal and graveyard hate. losing to an infinite combo because your deck wasn't ready for the common combos is your problem and you need to "git gud son."
This is basically what my Kess, Dissident Mage deck has become. I wanted a Grixis spellslinger, and Izzet seems to be the core spellslinger identity and Black just adds a bit of utility. This has resulted in a Dualcaster Mage/Reiterate/Turnabout/Rite of Replication/Tidespout Tyrant combo deck that does nothing but protect itself from threats through control until it can go off.
This is fun for me, but entirely anti-climatic for everyone else, and as a result the deck ends up being pretty lame to play with.
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.